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toturi
OK, Stumps. Do you accept that in SR, at least in the minds of the game designers, physical looks play a part (however small) in Charisma?

If so, then let me suggest this test. If a friend of yours from the same race was asking for help and another friend who was exactly the same in every respect except looks was to ask for help at the same time, if you could only help only one of them, who would that be? Being honest, I would help the friend who was better looking.
Shockwave_IIc
toturi, i've thought about your question alot, years before you've brought it up here.

Unfortuantley yes i proberbly would treat the "other" person more harshly.

Am i rascist? Yes i think i am. Do i like the fact? No. It's due to my upbring and my farther. However, once i know said person and i understand that i can trust them as much as ANYONE else does my racistism play a factor?

I think not.

Attractiveness does play apart in things, though i feel it is (in most case's) a small part only.
Stumps
I would help the friend I was closest too in relationship.
And that's completely not an issue in this conversation.

QUOTE
Do you accept that in SR, at least in the minds of the game designers, physical looks play a part (however small) in Charisma?

Yes. To be short.

To explain what that yes entails:
SR has attempted to make a natural attribute that covers the overall level of a persons charasmatic characteristics.
They called it Charisma.

They also proceeded to create skills to represent people who are skilled in the social arts to be used instead of the Charisma attribute when available.

Charisma ended up being a mechanic that was used for magical events and social events.

While Charisma takes on the role of incorporating looks, if one plays with a strong representation of Charisma placeholding for such looks, then when those looks are damaged by battle injuries (explosions, gunfire to the face, missing a leg, etc..), and/or freak accidents, the relative Charisma score should then be reduced.

This, of course can not happen, because every mage out there would be scared to get hurt because if their looks were damaged then they would lose out on their needed Charisma gain for magic.

Thus, Charisma, while in flavor and concept seems to represent a collection of things, to include looks, in machanics of actual play physical beauty can not be found to actually be actively influencing charisma in a proper manner.

Saying, "Your mage got hurt, take the flaw: ugly" to the mage because of an injury is not a balance considering the magical dampening that it will have on their abilities even though the attempt was to hurt their social ability.


With all this considered, it is apparent that there was a goal and an idea that was attempted in SR on the design level, regarding Charisma, that in follow through did not successfully reach the exact purpose, or rather, did reach their exact purpose but also caused a complication with other aspects of the system in it's ability to do so at the same time.

Hence, that translates down to me looking at a system that has social skills, charisma, and racism modifiers and simply deciding that they missed their mark with an attempt to make Trolls suffer a Charismatic penalty for their looks via a direct negative value to the Charisma Attribute of all Trolls.
In seeing this, I noticed that three things became immediately evident:
1) Trolls were suffering from their charismatic penalty even when talking to each other.
2) Charisma was not effectively representing the social troubles that Trolls must endure.
3) The racism table layed out a heafty penalty for those who fall victim to it.

So, fixing the angle of the formula from:
(Troll Charisma Negative) + (World Hate of Troll) = Social Henderence of Troll
The mechanical version looks like:(Charisma -2) + (Racism Modifier) = (Charisma TN vs. Charisma Roll)

To:
(World Hate of Troll = Social Henderence of Troll)
The mechanical version looks like:[Racism Modifier = (Charisma TN vs. Charisma Roll)]

See how much more sense that makes?
I hope you do because it's about as logical and simple as it gets.
The normal forumla, on the other hand, is tangled and messy and lacks logic right about somewhere at the first variable "(Troll Charisma Negative)"
Fortune
I'm happy enough with Trolls having at least some degree of negatives (Attribute-wise) to balance out their insane positives in my game.
Stumps
Fortune:
So am I.
And I made sure that when I did that revision that they still did.

I replaced the Charisma negative with the Troll appearing more times than any other race on the Racism Table.
That's actually more brutal in some ways, but it's more accurate to be sure.
toturi
I'm sorry but I do not get it.

Let's say I'm an ork. I am ugly. I have low Charisma. I talk to my unprejudiced average Human friend, I Negotiate for something. I am marginally successful. I talk to my average Ork friend, I Negotiate for something. I should be more successful. This is how I see it.

Your table increase the frequency of the Racism shown against the Orks/Trolls. But by removing the Cha mods, it also levels the virulence of the racism shown. This implies that a Troll is as able to deal with Racism as a Human. This may make more sense to you but given the general portrayal of orks and trolls vs elves or even humans in the SR world (this is a generalisation, I do not have a quote to back me up), while the "area" of racism against elves and dwarves are just as large, the "depth" of the racism shown is deeper against the trolls or orks.

Your system increase the "area" but decreases the "depth". In the Canon system, Racism is an equal opportunity asshole, but the "depth" of the hate is in favour of those who doesn't have negative Cha mods. Thus in this way, Humans (by virtue of their demographics) and Elves (by virtue of the + Cha mod) are shown less effective Racism.
Fortune
QUOTE (Stumps)
Fortune:
So am I.
And I made sure that when I did that revision that they still did.

I replaced the Charisma negative with the Troll appearing more times than any other race on the Racism Table.
That's actually more brutal in some ways, but it's more accurate to be sure.

I just don't see it as balancing.

Even with a Charisma hit, Trolls can still have Social Skills as high as anyone else. They just have to work harder at it (ie. it costs more Karma or BP).

More power to you if this is what you want in your games though.
Ol' Scratch
My solution was pretty simple, I thought. Remove the Charisma penalty. Increase the Build Point/Priority cost. Include social situation modifiers (as opposed to increased Racism).

That, or just flat out say that the penalty comes from brain damage caused by their transformation whether it was during goblinization or in the womb.

Continuing to say that it's based upon their appearances or people's fear of them just doesn't make sense except for a small subset of what the Charisma attribute affects (and even then, only indirectly).
Fortune
I have never rationalized it as being based on looks and/or other people's perceptions. The trauma/brain damage angle works for those that goblinized, but sort of falls apart when refering to those Trolls (and Orcs) born that way.
Stumps
Toturi: ugly is something that you take as a flaw and thus I don't see it as something that should be a flaw AND a negative hit to a race in the same system.
"Ugly for a Troll" is still ugly.
I don't support anything to do with looks and Charisma because Charisma has too many other rolls to let looks influence it.
The Flaw section has that well under raps and there is no need for it in Charisma.

And you are right. I don't hit them in depth.
So in that light, Doc-Fu's is a better concept.

I think in my mind that I would still rather see it the way that I'm putting it but hey...that's just me.

The reason I think that the depth doesn't matter is because the Racism Table has a system for determining Depth.
If you really cared that much about depth, all you would need to do is say that for Trolls, add +2 to the result of the depth roll.
+1 for Orks.

That's off the cuff, so I'd have to double check it later.

Doc's is a great idea, but I wonder if it's not more of a face change than a fix.
It just makes you pay more points to build up the attribute rather than saying that it's at a default -2 which also makes you spend more points to build it up.
They both do the same thing.
One just calls it BP cost increase and the other calls it Attribute Negative.
Both still say that it's the Trolls fault rather than saying that it's the Societies fault.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
I have never rationalized it as being based on looks and/or other people's perceptions. The trauma/brain damage angle works for those that goblinized, but sort of falls apart when refering to those Trolls (and Orcs) born that way.

Yeah, but entries like the Fomori suggest that it *is* based almost *exclusively* on looks. It's not individual's interpretations that are really in question here, it's the canonical ones that matter.

EDIT: As for the in-the-womb bit, see Kage's post below. Technically, they also goblinize inside the womb; it's just a natural part of their growth there rather than a spontaneous change later in life.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fortune)
I have never rationalized it as being based on looks and/or other people's perceptions. The trauma/brain damage angle works for those that goblinized, but sort of falls apart when refering to those Trolls (and Orcs) born that way.

I see no reason why it should break down for born Trolls and Orks. Hell, as we discussed a long time ago, it could very well just be a deficiency rather than any damage in particular.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I see no reason why it should break down for born Trolls and Orks. Hell, as we discussed a long time ago, it could very well just be a deficiency rather than any damage in particular.

A deficiency works for me, as I (think I've) said before. Brain damage due to the change is something different.
Ol' Scratch
It's a matter of perspective. Deficiency causes brain damage. While one can argue otherwise, it's all but obvious that the main metahuman races *are* humans at their core. So if they're performing under par compared to a human, they are still performing under par even if it's the "norm" for their racial variant.
Fortune
I didn't notice your 'or in the womb' addendum when I posted my response. If I had have noticed it, I would have agreed without reservation. smile.gif
Stumps
[deleted]
Ol' Scratch
Fortune's previous couple of posts.
Stumps
Ok...realized a couple of problems with the modifications to the Racism Table that no one either spotted or bothered to say anything about, while I was talking to my friend about it.

There are two problems that result from the rule-clause that states "*If NPC rolls their own race they are racist against Trolls rather than rolling again." :
1) If the Troll rolls Troll, he hates Troll, which means he hates Trolls, which means he hates Trolls, which means he...

There's no end to that loop since rolling your own race means you hate Trolls but he is a Troll and you can't hate your own race in SR's Racism Table.
My friend, who's african american, basically pointed out a very simple concept.
"Well, when we were hated by people, sometimes black people became really racist against the people who hated us."

It's a great statement, so I had to work that in there because he is completely right, and so I had to make a mechanic that made Trolls hate humans more in chance than normal.


2) Because the rule says "If NPC rolls their own race they are racist against Trolls", and Orks are on the list twice and Troll once, it basically means that Orks are 3 times more likely to hate Trolls. This is pretty much a major issue here and can't be left alone.
So, at present, I looked at it and I can't find anything that suggests one way or the other about where Orks stand on Trolls, in general. That being said, until someone points out which way Orks stand about Trolls I'm exempting the Orks from the "If NPC rolls their own race they are racist against Trolls " rule and just making them roll again when they get Ork.
Why do I remember something about Orks really hating humans?
If that comes to be valid, then for them it can be said that when they roll their own race they hate humans, somewhat like Trolls do.
This is NOT a perminent fix...I just haven't the right information, I don't think, to make the right version of it that sits right in my head.

Seperate issue:
3) Also, since torturi's point can be very well said to be a valid one when he brought up the issue of the "depth" of racism that Trolls suffer, I think that adding in the clause of +2 to the resulting Racism Points for the NPC makes some good sense.

To revise:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
........RACISM TABLE............
Dice Result.......Racial Bias
.......1................Humans.....
.......2................Orks**..........
.......3................Elves.........
.......4................Dwarfs.......
.......5................Orks**..........
.......6................Trolls*.......

*If NPC rolls their own race they are racist against Trolls rather than rolling again, however, when NPC Trolls roll their own race, they are racist against humans.
**When Orks roll their own race, they are not racist against Trolls. They roll again.

When the NPC is racist against Trolls add +2 to the resulting Racism Points.
When the NPC is racist against Orks add +1 to the resulting Racism Points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
toturi
If you are going to remove the penalties the Trolls and Orks get, perhaps you'll want to remove the Cha bonus elves get too. Oh, I forget... Elves are the most overcosted meta race for their bonuses, but go ahead, screw the Elves. They're the only meta race with their own countries anyway.

Wow, now Trolls and Orks get all their bonuses for even less penalties. Good thinking.
Stumps
toturi...I seriously hope you aren't getting a snide attitude.

I haven't given you one. In fact, I've tried to work with your suggestions and comments rather than straight out fight you on them.

As to the elves.
I realize that.
I had thought about that. And am still thinking about that, but I haven't figured out what I think about it yet.
I'm a little hesitent with saying that I'm up for removing all of the racial bonuses and negatives quite yet, but it is a possibility.
I'm not saying that I'm going to do that though.

There are some arguements that can support the elves keeping their charisma bonus, as they are mentioned to be more magically inclined.
Otoh, I can't justify them having charisma because they are a beautiful race if I'm with the way that I'm adjusting for Trolls and Orks, so it may be that they get nixed on that and receive an Automatic Racial Edge of Good Looking.
All of the top of my head, and I really want to save that conversation until I get the Troll and Ork taken care of.
Stumps
QUOTE
Wow, now Trolls and Orks get all their bonuses for even less penalties. Good thinking.


That's not true at all.

Trolls will have a minimal Racism Point against their Social rolls of at least +7TN
(Static TN is 4, plus Racism Minimal Points of +1TN, +2TN added to the Racism Points for being a Troll. The full range of final TN's for those who are racist against them will be +7TN to +12TN [4 + 6 + 2])

Orks will suffer a slightly less degree.
toturi
Sorry. It is a pet peeve of mine that with the way the "society" is organised in SR, if you try to alter one part of the racial attributes, you'll end up making one race too powerful or another too weak if you do not do anything to rebalance things.

One of the plus factors to me when playing an Elf character(despite all the overcosting) is that he probably can deal with the Racism while all those guys yakking about how much better trolls or orks are, I'll just point out that the Racism will cripple them and that to pump the Cha-link skills will take a bloody big chunk of their karma. Your re-doing of the Racism Table just killed off one of the larger hidden pluses of Elves.
Stumps
How so?

I'm still not seeing it.
That doesn't mean that I don't agree with you or anything.
I'm not following you.
Can you say it differently? I'm not catching how it happens.

[edit]Oh, and yes. I realize that balancing is needed elsewhere because of this...that's why I was looking at the other racial bonuses and negatives...[/edit]
toturi
QUOTE (Stumps)
QUOTE
Wow, now Trolls and Orks get all their bonuses for even less penalties. Good thinking.


That's not true at all.

Trolls will have a minimal Racism Point against their Social rolls of at least +7TN
(Static TN is 4, plus Racism Minimal Points of +1TN, +2TN added to the Racism Points for being a Troll. The full range of final TN's for those who are racist against them will be +7TN to +12TN [4 + 6 + 2])

Orks will suffer a slightly less degree.

Yes, but now they have higher Cha to off-set the Racism points now.

Previously it was Cha X against a TN of 2Y. Now it is Cha X + 2 against TN 2Y. Where Y is the Racism Points. 2 more dice to offset Y Racism Points.

Wait a minute... I just realised that you just screwed the Trolls and Orks over even worse! The TN now is 2(Y+K), K is the extra Racism point. Making it an even worse proposition for the Trolls/Orks to overcome Racism! Oh my... indifferent.gif frown.gif
Stumps
Yeah.
That's the point.

The thing is.
It's not as often anymore.
As in. It's not an automatic happening of the event.

See, before, even if the Troll was talking to someone who really loved Trolls alot, they suffered their charismatic negative....which makes no sense.
Now, it only applies when they are dealing with someone who hates them, but people who do hate Trolls are now hating Trolls at a minimum of 7TN, rather than 5TN with the Troll rolling Cha at -2 to dice.

So, in effect:
7TN vs 6D6
vs.
5TN vs 4D6

And to remind. I only added that +2 in there to reflect what you had said about depth.

If +2 is too much, then I guess it could be +1 and Orks could be +0 and just suffer the increase in being hated.
toturi
QUOTE (Stumps)
How so?

I'm still not seeing it.
That doesn't mean that I don't agree with you or anything.
I'm not following you.
Can you say it differently? I'm not catching how it happens.

[edit]Oh, and yes. I realize that balancing is needed elsewhere because of this...that's why I was looking at the other racial bonuses and negatives...[/edit]

OK, let's take this one step at a time.

Previously, even if the Troll(or Ork, I'll stick to Troll since typing both is a real pain) was talking to a non-racist person, he'll still be hampered by his natural lack of Charisma, simply because he has low Cha and his Social Skills are likely to be lower as a result.

Now, he's able to negotiate and socialise as well as a Human who spent as much effort to pump his Charisma. How does this reflect on the Racism? His Social Skills are now higher but the TNs are higher also. This screws the Trolls even more. Why? TN mods are as a rule more important than the number of dice you roll, remember?

Which brings me to my next point. There is no continuity in TNs. Either the guy the Troll is talking to is not racist or he is VERY racist! WTF? There is no slightly racist or a moderately racist, you go straight to very Racist! Woah...

My tummy is telling me that I've not eaten lunch and dinner is here... Be right back.
Stumps
Here's the table of what TN's equal in difficulty from page 92 of SR3.

Difficulty................Target Number
Simple.............................2
Routine...........................3
Average..........................4
Challenging.....................5
Difficult..........................6-7
Strenuous.......................8
Extreme...........................9
Nearly Impossible..........10+

The lowest TN before was 5TN for anyone racist against a Troll.
The newest TN is 7TN.

It just went from Challenging to Difficult

On the high end, it went from 10TN to 12TN staying at Nearly Impossible.

The difference is effectively 1 placement on the low end, and 2 placements on the high end.

So really, there never was a mild racism against Trolls or anyone in the first place.
It was always Challenging, at best, for every race to over come.
It's just now Difficult, at best, for the Troll to over come.

I must admit that I need someone elses help on figuring out the chances on the difference between 4D6 going for 5TN and 10TN vs 6D6 going for 7TN and 12TN.
Mercer
QUOTE (Stumps)
QUOTE
If the game designers are saying physical attractiveness are a factor in conjuring... well, I may be playing a different game than they are.

Mercer,
I can't recall saying anything about this at all...I'm lost.

I took out the Charisma penalty all together when I re-did that racism table.

You are correct to be lost; I wasn't referring to the racism table but to the line in M&M that states looks are a part of Charisma. I should have notated it more clearly, but sometimes I forget that these threads have many people arguing several things at the same time. toturi and I were having a discussion about beauty and charisma.

Stumps
ok...found a TN success percent chance chart Here

Final results were:
4D6 vs 5TN = 80.25%
6D6 vs 7TN = 66.51%
Difference: 13.74% in favor of old rule.

4D6 vs 10TN = 29.39%
6D6 vs 7TN = 15.55%
Difference: 13.84% in favor of old rule.

4D6 vs 5TN - 10TN average chance = 49.295%
6D6 vs 5TN - 12TN average chance = 43.61%
Difference: 5.685% in favor of old rule.

Chance of Troll encountering issue:
Old Rule: 100%
New Rule: 33.333~%
Difference: 66.66~7% in favor of new rule.


-----
And Mercer...ah, ok.

[edit]gotta watch some Band of Brothers. Be back later.
Ps. I'm really enjoying this conversation![/edit]
toturi
QUOTE (Stumps @ Dec 3 2004, 07:38 PM)
Here's the table of what TN's equal in difficulty from page 92 of SR3.

Difficulty................Target Number
Simple.............................2
Routine...........................3
Average..........................4
Challenging.....................5
Difficult..........................6-7
Strenuous.......................8
Extreme...........................9
Nearly Impossible..........10+

The lowest TN before was 5TN for anyone racist against a Troll.
The newest TN is 7TN.

It just went from Challenging to Difficult

On the high end, it went from 10TN to 12TN staying at Nearly Impossible.

The difference is effectively 1 placement on the low end, and 2 placements on the high end.

So really, there never was a mild racism against Trolls or anyone in the first place.
It was always Challenging, at best, for every race to over come.
It's just now Difficult, at best, for the Troll to over come.

I must admit that I need someone elses help on figuring out the chances on the difference between 4D6 going for 5TN and 10TN vs 6D6 going for 7TN  and 12TN.

I'll try to address your points post by post. So here goes...

Previously, the Troll could attempt to reduce the Racism Points (a direct attempt to reduce Racism) by making a Charisma Test.

Charisma Test

Before:

Racist points
1) TN 2, probably make the roll and deduce the Racism point to 0.
2) TN 4, maybe make the roll, 50/50 chance to reduce it to 1, could possibly reduce it to 0.
3) TN 6, almost certainly not, but the actual Cha-skill roll TN would be 7 anyway, it aint gonna matter even if he hits one success.

Now:

1) TN 2(1+2), almost certainly not.
2) TN 2(2+2), are you kidding?
3) TN 2(3+2), you must be f**king me

Actual Cha-linked Skill test

Before:
Racist points
1) TN 4 - i think he'll almost certainly make the Cha roll (see above)
2) TN 4/5/6, depending on the above roll

Now:
1) TN 7
2) TN 8

Previously, the Troll could TRY to reduce the Racism and actually have SOME success at mitigating Racial bias which enables him to have some chance at the actual Cha-linked Skill roll. Previously, he has a chance at Average. Now, it is Difficult all the way. Ehhh, do you understand what I'm saying?

EDIT:

Assuming Troll Charisma of 2/4 (before/now)

Charisma Test

Before

TN 2 = 97.22% (1 success)
TN 4 = 25% (2 success)

Now

TN 6 = 51.77% (1 success)
TN 8 = 9.542% (2 success)

Actual Test

Before:

Racist Pt 1: 97.22% chance of TN 4 + 2.78% of TN 5

Now:

Racist Pt 1 + 2: 51.77% of TN 6 and 48.23% of TN 7 (might as well made it 100% TN 6)

This is just a sampling. Typing and doing math at the same time makes my head hurt. I'll try to work this out on Excel.
toturi
QUOTE (Stumps)
Chance of Troll encountering issue:
Old Rule: 100%
New Rule: 33.333~%
Difference: 66.66~7% in favor of new rule.

What did you mean by Chance of Troll encountering issue?

What issue?
Stumps
By issue, I meant suffering the penalty.

See, in the normal rules, the Troll suffers the -2 100% of the time.
In the new rules, the Troll suffers the penalty only when they run into someone who is racist.
Since they effectively appear twice (though "wondering") on the Racism Table now, they effectively run into someone who is racist against them 33.333~% of the time.

Thus, the chance of the Troll encountering the issue of recieving the "penalty" will occure 66.66~7% times less, but will be 5.685% harder across the board to succeed against.

---I'm looking at your statistics post now...just wanted to post this real quick. Don't get hung up on the numbers if it's an issue cause I haven't processed your numbers yet.----
Stumps
Ok...

QUOTE
The character can offset these points by making a Charisma test against a target number equal to twice the NPC's racism.  Each success rolled counteracts 1 point of racism.


Before the lowest Racism Point was 1.
Now the lowest Racism Point is 3. (1 Racism point natural [being a racist] +2 for the penalty against Trolls.)

"making a Charisma test against a target number equal to twice the NPC's racism"
Before is a TN of 2.
Now is a TN of 6.

hrmm...that really sucks.
um...yeah, I'll hand that to you. That's messed up real bad there.
I need to think on this one.
This very well might end the entire Racism Table revision dead in it's creation.

(grumble grumble...f***ing with SR system is like playing "pick-up-sticks" with razor blades.)
Stumps
"When your car breaks down, don't try to fix it. Instead, enjoy the scenery from the vantage point of walking."

In so doing, my car has broke.
While walking I noticed something.

Effectively, the only problem I have is with the -2 being 100% of the time effective on the Troll.

It would be MUCH easier to say the following:
The -2 to Charisma only applies when the NPC is a racist.
The -2 to Charisma does count when trying to stage down Racist points.
The Charisma of a Troll may not exceed the racial maximum limit.

So they still spend the build points to raise the Charisma up to 6 if they want to overcome the racism impacts of the -2, but they don't need to if they don't care.
Those who are not racist against a Troll do not hender the Trolls charisma.

So:
Charisma: 4(6)
It's 4 when dealing with a racist, and 6 when not dealing with a racist.

At racial maximum:
Charisma: 6(6)
Kind of like modified attribute, but a little different.
toturi
QUOTE (Stumps)
Effectively, the only problem I have is with the -2 being 100% of the time effective on the Troll.

It would be MUCH easier to say the following:
The -2 to Charisma only applies when the NPC is a racist.
The -2 to Charisma does count when trying to stage down Racist points.
The Charisma of a Troll may not exceed the racial maximum limit.

So they still spend the build points to raise the Charisma up to 6 if they want to overcome the racism impacts of the -2, but they don't need to if they don't care.
Those who are not racist against a Troll do not hender the Trolls charisma.

So:
Charisma: 4(6)

Kind of like modified attribute, but a little different.

I do not have a problem with this. The problem I have is with the game balance with respect to the other races. Your Table makes nearly everyone else except Troll or Ork prejudiced towards Troll or Ork. And the problem is this: Going by demographics you've changed the social balance from an average low level of racial prejudice and average spread to high level of prejudice and pervasive spread. The only thing that I can see that this house rule goes in favour of is a narrow spectrum of orks/trolls hermetic conjurors.
Stumps
Screw the table.

It's been through the firing line and been riddled with lead and found dead.

The newer idea is MUCH better and also besides being easier to do, is much more streamlined.
Fortune
As I said previously, it is pretty much balanced already. The Troll loses something in return for gaining (a big) something. Nothing prevents the Troll from having an Etiquette and Negotiation of 10 ... it just takes them a little more time or effort than a human or elf. In Shadowrun, it is usually the skill that means more than the attribute.
Stumps
Yeah, Fortune, I know...
I was just not liking the absolute of the Charisma.
I like it more when it only counts in racial discriminant instances.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Fortune)
As I said previously, it is pretty much balanced already. The Troll loses something in return for gaining (a big) something. Nothing prevents the Troll from having an Etiquette and Negotiation of 10 ... it just takes them a little more time or effort than a human or elf. In Shadowrun, it is usually the skill that means more than the attribute.

Yes, but in case you missed the rest of the thread (which I know you didn't), the problem isn't about game balance. It's about making sense. The Charisma penalty doesn't make sense within the context of the game. It's *not* just a social factor that affects Etiquette and Negotiation. It affects conjuring, astral combat, Matrix interactions, and several other things that have nothing to do whatsoever with ugliness or how other people perceive them, and it has nothing to do with "being balanced already." It's about making it as logical as it is balanced.
Stumps
Conjuring could be defended by saying that you are trying to get the conjured to want to appear.

That's as best as I can come up with for that one.

The astral combat:
Charisma could be said to be measure of personal strength in some form, and so I suppose you could reason that on the astral plane, your strength in character and self (something like charisma I suppose) can become your effective astral strength.

Again...that's as best as I can come up with for that.

I'm just trying to reach for a rationality before I seariously start looking to re-vamp it.

Matrix stuff...no idea.
I never screw with the matrix rules. I hate them all.
And as to the rationality of the idea...I can't see one in any form.
Fortune
Tell me again why the 'brain defect' reason isn't acceptable?
Stumps
For what?
intelligence.

It's plausable if your character is 40 or older.
Fortune
Why is it not possible that the change in DNA (whether by goblinization or birth), however slight, altered the Troll's capacity to learn and makes it more difficult to learn how to fit in as compared to the base human.
Stumps
I suppose in some aspect that is possible.

The reason that I don't see it as true, however, is that there are many flavor texts where Trolls are very well educated.
In fact, there's one that is president of a Corp if I remember correctly.
toturi
An ork is the Chairman of Yamatetsu. An ogre is the King of Spain. An ork and an ork variant.

The only Troll that I know that is smart is the troll that hangs around Talon.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 3 2004, 11:05 AM)
Tell me again why the 'brain defect' reason isn't acceptable?

Because, once again, the Fomori entry (SRComp p. 39) heavily suggests that the Charisma penalty is due to looks and what others find physically attractive about trolls. The same goes for the Ogre variant of Orks (SRComp p. 41) who, not surprisingly, also lack a Charisma penalty.
toturi
How about looks influencing the general way people deal with you? If the book makes the assumption that the troll is brought up with contact with the "normal" world and not just the troll society, he will inevitably take a hit to his self-worth and that is what drops the Charisma.
Botch
QUOTE (Fortune)
Why is it not possible that the change in DNA (whether by goblinization or birth), however slight, altered the Troll's capacity to learn and makes it more difficult to learn how to fit in as compared to the base human.

Because it is damage on a species wide level and you are saying that in the 40-odd years that trolls have been around that no-one has done anything at all to cure it. Everybody appears to think that all trolls are stoopid and poor with no political clout whatsoever. Do I have to remind you that a) they aren't and b) Lots of them goblinised and were thus humans beforehand, they have human families.

What is the ratio of medical pratictioners to population? There are 278 million trolls in 2064.

Yes trolls should be hampered with their INT and CHA uses, just in a plausible and consistant way, this is the problem.

I have a point about converting -CHA to racism and social interaction. Thoughout SR source material orks are portrayed has having a harder time from humans than trolls so the -CHA cannot be applied directly to racism. If we are going penalise the INT/CHA stats because of social reasons then that can only be done by racial flaws that are specific and can be "bought-out".

Intimidation is an active skill that is CHA linked and a trolls CHA penalty simply does not scan. Which meta-human is more intimidating than a troll?

Applying pop-psychology to CHA for trolls is also inconsistant. Trolls wander around knowing that they are physically sstronger, difficult to harm and have the biggest dick, is it suggested that this has no positive influence on their strength of personality?

How badly is probability effected by shifting the -2CHA to +2TN# for social tests?

I quite like the CHA 4(6) idea.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
How about looks influencing the general way people deal with you? If the book makes the assumption that the troll is brought up with contact with the "normal" world and not just the troll society, he will inevitably take a hit to his self-worth and that is what drops the Charisma.

Since that's dependant on social situations rather than an inherent racial trait, it should be a Flaw.
Kagetenshi
And there's no reason why Trolls, through other genetic strengths and/or dedication and/or gene therapy/augmentation, could not overcome their innate weaknesses. That isn't an argument against them having said weaknesses in the first place.

In my opinion, the easiest change is to delete the references to Fomori, etc.'s good looks being charisma factors. Redo the flavor rather than the rules.

~J
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