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Fortune
QUOTE (Stumps)
I suppose in some aspect that is possible.

The reason that I don't see it as true, however, is that there are many flavor texts where Trolls are very well educated.
In fact, there's one that is president of a Corp if I remember correctly.

Which can be attributed to them going the extra mile and devoting an abnormal amount of effort (for a Troll) to learn the appropriate skills at the appropriate levels. Just because their Attributes are a little lower doesn't mean they cannot have high skill levels.

QUOTE
Because, once again, the Fomori entry (SRComp p. 39) heavily suggests that the Charisma penalty is due to looks and what others find physically attractive about trolls. The same goes for the Ogre variant of Orks (SRComp p. 41) who, not surprisingly, also lack a Charisma penalty.


This could be written off as flavor text (a stretch I know). It could also be that it is just a lesser DNA change, with less alien (from the human norm) looks manifesting as well.
Ol' Scratch
I have no problem with them having a weakness. I have a problem with them having illogical weaknesses. A hit to Charisma because they're ugly does *not* make any sense because Charisma is *not* about looks. This is made abundantly clear by practically everything in the game that's not related to the troll and ork penalties.

Tailored Pheromones. Improved Looks surgical options. Good Looking & Knows It/Ugly & Doesn't Care. None of those increase or decrease the base Charisma attribute. Yet standard trolls take a hit to their base Charisma because, as the fomori and ogre entries indicate, they're ugly due to all those dermal deposits and/or body hair.

I have equal problems with the Elf bonus to Charisma because they're attractive and people like them (even though that's so not the case).
Fortune
I didn't mention the looks in reference or relation to Charisma, just as a side effect of the lesser DNA change which resulted in a lesser (or no) Charisma penalty in those metavarients. I'd just write that little blurb off to biased thinking on the part of the (fictional) author.
Ol' Scratch
I was actually responding to Kagetenshi in my last post; yours just happened to slip in before I was able to add it. smile.gif

As a side note, the troll-written entry describing trolls in the SR3 sourcebook continues to suggest that the penalty comes from other people's reactions of trolls, and the way it's written even suggests that it shouldn't apply on the Matrix or in their writing (he's rather charming and likeable). Everything in the game that points towards the Charisma penalty (and the bonus for elves) indicate or suggest that it has more to do with looks and likeability than it does strength of personality -- and the latter is what Charisma most strongly represents.
Mercer
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I have no problem with them having a weakness.  I have a problem with them having illogical weaknesses.  A hit to Charisma because they're ugly does *not* make any sense because Charisma is *not* about looks.  This is made abundantly clear by practically everything in the game that's not related to the troll and ork penalties.

I have equal problems with the Elf bonus to Charisma because they're attractive and people like them (even though that's so not the case).

I agree with you whole-heartedly here. Charisma being a measure of physical attractiveness (or even a leading indicator) is asinine.

But I don't have a problem with Orks, Trolls and Elves having a Charisma modifier, any more than the modifier orks and trolls have to Int. So there brains work a little differently, I can live with that. To me, the fix is simply to remove any reference to looks in any description of Charisma, rather than to remove the Charisma penalty itself.

Stumps
I completely agree with Doc.

That's why I was so persistent with a change of the rule to reflect that the Troll only suffers when dealing with people who don't like Trolls.
Kagetenshi
As I said (if badly), I'm more along Mercer's line of thinking.

~J
Botch
QUOTE (Mercer)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I have no problem with them having a weakness.  I have a problem with them having illogical weaknesses.  A hit to Charisma because they're ugly does *not* make any sense because Charisma is *not* about looks.  This is made abundantly clear by practically everything in the game that's not related to the troll and ork penalties.

I have equal problems with the Elf bonus to Charisma because they're attractive and people like them (even though that's so not the case).

I agree with you whole-heartedly here. Charisma being a measure of physical attractiveness (or even a leading indicator) is asinine.

But I don't have a problem with Orks, Trolls and Elves having a Charisma modifier, any more than the modifier orks and trolls have to Int. So there brains work a little differently, I can live with that. To me, the fix is simply to remove any reference to looks in any description of Charisma, rather than to remove the Charisma penalty itself.

But nowhere in the rules do Troll and Orks brains work differently, just arbitarily worse. There should be a penalty, but it should be logical and ideally grant small, balanced benefits that reflect the development of brain that focuses on the physical rather than the intellectual.
Stumps
QUOTE (Botch)
I quite like the CHA 4(6) idea.

That is the -2 to Cha.
It's just only applied when the Troll suffers from racial hatred.

As far as Mercer's idea.
Ok, yes. We can do that.
Which is easier.
-2 Cha when Trolls are racially hated, or hunting down every mention of looks relating to charisma in all of the SR books?

Regardless of what the looks ends up being about in regard to Cha, however, I don't like the idea of a 100% of the time -2 to Cha.
It makes no sense.
Why do they suffer against their own kind?
Why do they suffer when attempting intimidation?
Why do they suffer on the astral plane?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Botch)
But nowhere in the rules do Troll and Orks brains work differently, just arbitarily worse. There should be a penalty, but it should be logical and ideally grant small, balanced benefits that reflect the development of brain that focuses on the physical rather than the intellectual.


You mean like +5 Body and +4 Strength?

~J
Botch
Brain - Body, spot the difference.

But, yeah, +STR, +BOD, -INT, -CHA and -TN# for sensory tests because you focus so much and are designed/evovled to be physical and not cerebral. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than because your are big and strong with dermal armour people think you are stupid and ugly so you are.
Ol' Scratch
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it was quite a while back. While on one hand I don't like the Charisma penalty because of the way it's described (the looks bit), I also don't like it because it just seems to be thrown in there to balance out their physical boosts. I don't like that kind of "game balance," and I prefer racial modifications to be based more upon their physical characteristics rather than their mental or social ones; especially the more nebulous mental and social attributes. The latter are handled so much better by the Edges & Flaw system than a flat penalty.

Ideally, here's what I would like to see (though some playtesting would be required):
  • Human (0 BP/Priority E): No attribute modifiers, Karma Pool every 1/10 instead of 1/20.
  • Dwarf (5 BP/Priority D): Body +1, Strength +2, Thermographic Vision, Running Penalty, Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins, +10% Equipment Penalty, +1 Willpower for purposes of resistance tests only (basically mental Dermal Armor).
  • Elf (5 BP/Priority D): Quickness +1, Low-Light Vision, equivalence of the Good Looking & Knows It edge (but with the option to buy it off as a racial flaw).
  • Ork (10 BP/Priority C): Body +3, Quickness -1, Strength +2, Low-Light Vision, equivalence of the Ugly & Doesn't Care flaw (with the option to buy it off as a racial edge).
  • Troll (20 BP/Priority B): Body +5, Quickness -1, Strength +4, Intelligence -1, Thermographic Vision, Reach +1, Dermal Armor, +25% Equipment Penalty, equivalence of the Ugly & Doesn't Care flaw (with the option to buy it off as a racial edge), equivalence of the Oblivious and Incompetence: Physical Skills flaws (with the option to buy them off as racial edges).
For me, that would go a long way to improving things while reflecting the descriptive and sociological characteristics of the core races. If I changed anything else right off the top of my head, it would be increasing Dwarf to 10 BPs/Priority C.

EDIT: Left something off the Dwarf entry and changed a typo.
Botch
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it was quite a while back. While on one hand I don't like the Charisma penalty because of the way it's described (the looks bit), I also don't like it because it just seems to be thrown in there to balance out their physical boosts. I don't like that kind of "game balance," and I prefer racial modifications to be based more upon their physical characteristics rather than their mental or social ones; especially the more nebulous mental and social attributes. The latter are handled so much better by the Edges & Flaw system than a flat penalty.

Ideally, here's what I would like to see (though some playtesting would be required):
  • Human (0 BP/Priority E): No attribute modifiers, Karma Pool every 1/10 instead of 1/20.
  • Dwarf (5 BP/Priority D): Body +1, Strength +2, Thermographic Vision, Running Penalty, +10% Equipment Penalty
  • Elf (5 BP/Priority D): Quickness +1, Low-Light Vision, equivalence of the Good Looking & Knows It edge (but with the option to buy it off as a racial flaw).
  • Ork (10 BP/Priority C): Body +3, Quickness -1, Strength +2, Low-Light Vision, equivalence of the Ugly & Doesn't Care flaw (with the option to buy it off as a racial edge).
  • Troll (20 BP/Priority B): Body +5, Quickness -2, Strength +4, Intelligence -1, Thermographic Vision, Reach +1, Dermal Armor, +25% Equipment Penalty, equivalence of the Ugly & Doesn't Care Edge (with the option to buy it off as a racial edge), equivalence of the Oblivious and Incompetence: Physical Skills flaw (with the option to buy it off as a racial edge).
For me, that would go a long way to improving things while reflecting the descriptive and sociological characteristics of the core races.

All good except,

Incompetence: Physical Skills flaw (with the option to buy it off as a racial edge).

This is a physical race.

Ol' Scratch
Yes, but Physical Skills are predominately made up of Athletics and Stealth.
Stumps
Doc.
That would, and I like the idea you've got there quite a bit.
*copy-paste, save*
Apathy
I agree to some extent to pieces of what everyone is saying. Seems like this is all more confusing because the original authors didn't do that consistent a job in defining CHA. Seems like that supreme court justice (which one was it) who was trying to define pornography and couldn't, and just ended up saying something about 'knowing it when he sees it'.

I once worked with a guy in my IT department who just gave me the willies. He had average looks, was intelligent, but as soon as I started talking to him I'd get annoyed. I couldn't put my finger on why at first, but I had an immediate, visceral reaction to him. I felt very guilty about it, and did my absolute best to never let it show outwardly, but soon I found myself going out of my way to avoid working with him on projects. Other people in the department I asked had similar responses. Eventually, I found out that as he was growing up he was diagnosed as having functional-but-borderline autism, which cripples many of a person's social abilities. This is my role model when I have to PC a CHA = 1 character.
    Charisma is?...
    a. your force of personality
    b. your self confidence
    c. openness to discussion
    d. capacity for empathy
    e. instinct for creating a bond with others
    f. knack for saying/doing the right thing at the right time
    g. all the intangibles that factor into making people like you, including racism/sexism/beauty/hygiene/etc.
In my opinion, Charisma in game terms is A through E. F is you Etiquette skill, and the factors in G are modifiers in your social skill tests. I know that this is inconsistant with some sections of some of the books (like toturi's mention of the Fomori having better charisma because they look better), but I think it keeps me more sane when trying to relate this to Astral presence.

I see no reason why the Charisma penalties to Orks and Trolls, and the benifits to Elves, can't just represent an added proficiency or lack in these areas.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Botch)
Brain - Body, spot the difference.

Brain is a part of body, and tends to have a pretty big influence (a reference; I can try to find the full article if you'd like). The way the brain develops could well help shape the overall physical abilities.

~J
Ol' Scratch
Just a quick note to let those of you who are interested know that I edited my racial post above. Totally forgot about the dwarf stuff.
Mercer
QUOTE (Stumps)
QUOTE (Botch)
I quite like the CHA 4(6) idea.

That is the -2 to Cha.
It's just only applied when the Troll suffers from racial hatred.

As far as Mercer's idea.
Ok, yes. We can do that.
Which is easier.
-2 Cha when Trolls are racially hated, or hunting down every mention of looks relating to charisma in all of the SR books?

This seems pretty easy to me. I don't have to hunt down all the references, I just have to say once, "Charisma and looks are unrelated" and let that superceed any other ruling. Or, as I tell my players, "You can look like whatever you want."

QUOTE (Botch)

Regardless of what the looks ends up being about in regard to Cha, however, I don't like the idea of a 100% of the time -2 to Cha.
It makes no sense.
Why do they suffer against their own kind?
Why do they suffer when attempting intimidation?
Why do they suffer on the astral plane?


The way I look at it, this is like asking, "Why do orks and trolls have a minus to Int when they are among their own kind? Why do they suffer when they try to notice things, and why are they slower on the Astral Plane?"

The minus to Int (and Cha, as well as the bonuses to anything else) are a part of the individual himself. It is something inherent to that race. Orks and trolls have a few mental minuses, and a few physical pluses. Elves just have a few pluses. The idea is it all balances out. (Whether it does or not is a matter of some debate, in my game we went back to Priority C Metahuman across the board, because there seemed to be no logic in the division between C metahumans and D metahumans, but thats for another post, I imagine.)

As a game mechanic, Charisma is something about you that has nothing to do with other peoples perceptions of you (though it is what those perceptions are often based on). How they perceive you doesn't change who you are. There is no Heisenberg Principle at work here. Character is what you are in the dark. (Btw, I forget who said that orig. If I had to guess I'd say Thomas Hobbes, but don't, uh, quote me on that.)

The minus to Charisma, or the plus, or to any other stat, is something that happens long before racism, looks, or other people get involved, and therefore should be considered to be completely seperate from them. To me, there is no mechanical difference between Charisma and any other stat, its just one of the six.
Botch
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 3 2004, 08:12 PM)
Yes, but Physical Skills are predominately made up of Athletics and Stealth.

Yes, athletics is very physically demanding.

BOD is also a descriptor for physical fitness as well as size and damage resistance. Trolls are a disproportionaly fit, poor and under resourced section of the population whose upbringing is pretty much going to turn them off a mass pursuit of a cerebral job; sounds like the background of a lot of athletes.

Stealth, um, probably I can't sway you, but trolls (heavy ones) do exist in an overly fragile and confining environment, careful movement over weak floors, through small openings (most doors), and delicate seating. All to my mind heighten body awareness and co-ordination just to reduce the bruising and breakages payments if nothing else.

Not suggesting that they get a bonus, only that they shouldn't be penalised with that particular flaw. Something else that reflects being to big for a human technological, urban world.
Botch
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 3 2004, 11:20 PM)
QUOTE (Botch)

Regardless of what the looks ends up being about in regard to Cha, however, I don't like the idea of a 100% of the time -2 to Cha.
It makes no sense.
Why do they suffer against their own kind?
Why do they suffer when attempting intimidation?
Why do they suffer on the astral plane?


The way I look at it, this is like asking, "Why do orks and trolls have a minus to Int when they are among their own kind? Why do they suffer when they try to notice things, and why are they slower on the Astral Plane?"


Because INT doesn't depend on interpersonal communication, equations don't decide if you are ugly or not, it doesn't take longer to read and understand a philosphical treatise because the book is racist, an exam answersheet isn't any harder to fill out because its scared of you, and ballistic calculation to hit a target with indirect fire isn't any harder because you have a mouth full of tusks and a flat, unmodulated voice.
Stumps
Mercer,
Botch didn't say that.
I did. He might not like being claimed to have said things that I do. (I tend to say things that not a lot of people agree with. biggrin.gif )

QUOTE
The minus to Int (and Cha, as well as the bonuses to anything else) are a part of the individual himself.


If you look at it as something that is part of an individual then there should be no Racial penalty.
It would rather then be a player chosen Flaw.

But it's a racialy wide penalty which means that it's not an individual trait or account of a trait.

(For the following example, place the context back in the 1800's time frame.)
I might as well say, "All native americans suffer a penalty to charisma because they have bad charisma."
And then go on to write about how that is in part do to things like not being able to speak english well, or spooking the general public with their tribal stuff.

Do they really have bad charisma? No. Any decent person can tell you that. What they did suffer from was a lack of understanding from the Americans back then who assumed that they were dumb and rude because of their actions and mannerisms.

If it's racially wide, and it deals with something that involves social interaction, then it's not that race that is disfunctional. It's the perceptions and willingness of the public towards them, outside of their race, that's disfunctional.

If it's an individual problem, then that would be a Flaw.

QUOTE
The way I look at it, this is like asking, "Why do orks and trolls have a minus to Int when they are among their own kind? Why do they suffer when they try to notice things, and why are they slower on the Astral Plane?"

It's not the same thing at all.
The Intelligence related skills can be accomplished by another race better than the Trolls.
That race is Human. Elves beat humans on that issue according to the bonuses.

Thus, the average that is the measurement to which others are gauged against is Human because of their middle ground.

Now, take the amount of time it takes a human to accomplish an Intelligence related skill and then compare that to a Troll.
The Troll loses.
It's just like saying that Neanderthals are slower on Intelligence related skills overall than Modern Man.

It doesn't matter if they are not around Modern Man because it is something that is gauged regardless if Modern Man is present.

With Charisma, it is a contest of social will. (for lack of a better term.)
It is a matter of interest here because a Troll is not going to have a Racial penalty against Charisma when he is dealing with his own race.
In fact. It makes more sense if he has an advantage over a non-Troll when dealing with a Troll.
The non-Troll character would be dealing with a Troll who is used to being hated.
Why the hell would he like to help someone who he thinks might hate him?
This is what the racism table is for.
And on that Racism Table a race is incapable of hating it's own race, which supports the thought that a race does not have problems dealing with it's own race as a whole.
This means that the Troll would have a better time talking to the Troll than the non-Troll, so why the hell they suffer a Racial penalty when dealing with their own race is beyond me.
Botch
As to the mis-quoting, I'm neutral, Stumps you are currently arguing the same point as me, so that's cool. I was more upset, when a good post of mine in this thread was credited to toturi.
toturi
I'm sorry about that. I never intended to take any credit from you.

But does it mean you were so upset because you think my posts are so bad there's guilt by association? (j/k biggrin.gif)
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Botch)
Yes, athletics is very physically demanding.

BOD is also a descriptor for physical fitness as well as size and damage resistance. Trolls are a disproportionaly fit, poor and under resourced section of the population whose upbringing is pretty much going to turn them off a mass pursuit of a cerebral job; sounds like the background of a lot of athletes.

Stealth, um, probably I can't sway you, but trolls (heavy ones) do exist in an overly fragile and confining environment, careful movement over weak floors, through small openings (most doors), and delicate seating. All to my mind heighten body awareness and co-ordination just to reduce the bruising and breakages payments if nothing else.

Not suggesting that they get a bonus, only that they shouldn't be penalised with that particular flaw. Something else that reflects being to big for a human technological, urban world.

Hmm, how can I describe my intent here?

Look at it like this. The Incompetence equivalence is basically reflecting the reprecussions of a troll's *massive* size. Yes, his immense natural Body score helps him overcome that physical limitation regarding Athletics, but it doesn't eliminate it either. He should still have a harder time climbing a wall, hiding behind a tree, sneaking around in the dark (those floor planks just love to groan when they have a metric ton pushing down on them), running the 100 meter dash, or polevaulting compared to, say, a human or an elf.

That's what this racial limitation represents. The troll is still capable of using Athletics and Stealth, he's just not quite as good as it as the other metahumans of equal skill. Though in the case of Athletics, he has quite a few advantages over the lesser metahumans anyway since most of them rely on Body and Strength, too. So it levels out in the whole.
Mercer
QUOTE (Stumps)
If it's racially wide, and it deals with something that involves social interaction, then it's not that race that is disfunctional.  It's the perceptions and willingness of the public towards them, outside of their race, that's disfunctional.

I apologize for the misattribution. Thats the problem with carrying on a conversation with several people at once. (Also, you people all look alike to me.)

The crux of my argument is that while almost all social interaction is based on the Charisma stat, the stat itself is not determined by social interaction. A troll or orks racial penalty to CHA (or Int) is something they would have if they were born on a deserted island and never saw another living being. It is a -1 (in the case of orks) to their Astral Strength, and no more dependent on the thoughts and opinions of anyone else in the world than their +2 to Str (again, for orks). It is a penalty that would be applied even if you eliminated every other metatype from the game and made it Orkworld, 2064.

While the perceptions of the public may be based in part on their Charisma-- and in the case of orks and trolls, its probably based more on the fact they are big scary guys, and different-looking, which isn't even stat dependent (except in the case of BOD and STR)-- the perceptions of the public, pro or con, don't influence stats. (If the books says they do, then I would have to disagree with the book most strongly. I can live with that. If I don't think the Bible should be taken word for word, I certainly am not going to feel that way about something put together by five guys from Chicago).

Interpreting it in this way means that the various penalties and bonuses a metatype gets have to do with the physical and physiological differences between it and the base creature (homo sapien sapien), and nothing else. That means the -1 to CHA is from the same source as the -1 to INT (again, for orks), as well as the +3 and +2 to BOD and STR.

To put another way, CHA is the base stat for social interaction, but it also does a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with social interaction. If the penalty applied only to social interaction, I'd say lose it, because I don't believe orks or trolls are any less socially adept.
[ Spoiler ]

But CHA also has to do with a lot of things that don't have anything to do with social interaction. Its how many push-ups you can do astrally, as well as the basis for conjuring. Since the penalties apply here despite people's perceptions have nothing to do with it, I interpret that to mean that people's perceptions don't influence the CHA stat (though they may be influenced by it). How a thing is perceived does not change the thing itself.
Stumps
This is a pointless debate any further.

We are at an impass.
One as impossible as the debate of whether it's genetics or atmosphere that's more responsible for what makes a person who they are.

I hold one view.
You hold another.

I'm afraid we will both have to settle for simply accepting that we see things in different light and respect that we are both able to give supportive, rational, and objective reasons to each of our views.

It's been a good conversation, consideration, and, of course being DSF, debate.
Mercer
Well, we can do it your way. Kind of mature and all. Not that thats a bad thing. Necessarily. Or, we could arm wrestle. (*Puts elbow on the table and turns hat backwards like Sylvester Stallone in Over the Top*)
toturi
So guys, who is arguing what? Is it natural or the game atmosphere?

Anyway, I would put it this way... The game world should reflect the game mechanics.

Orks/Trolls face prejudice when facing other Races - True. Elf face prejudice when facing the outside Race but less than the Orks/Trolls - True. These 2 effects are reflected in the Racism Table.

Orks/Trolls do not have trouble talking with each other - Don't know. Elves do not have trouble talking with each other - No, some Immortal Elves hate each other's guts, but ordinary elves still manage to get together for a country or two.

What I am saying is that Cause and Effect are interlinked. If you have the Effect, you may deduce the Cause and vice versa. So the game mechanics will inevitably reflected in the game world. Or did you think it was a coincidence that 2 Voices of GDs are elves named Romanov nyahnyah.gif ?
Glyph
Personally, I have always seen Charisma as primarily a mental Attribute. I have always explained ork and troll penalties based on their life cycles. They not only have a shorter lifespan, but also mature, physically, much more quickly than humans do. I think that would mess up their development, intelligence-wise. They pass more quickly through that developmental/learning stage of childhood and are dumped into adulthood at 14 or 15 years old. That would affect anyone's mental capacity.


By the way, I am not trying to re-start the debate here. I am merely offering one possible game world/realistic explanation for rules that were likely done more for game balance reasons.
Ol' Scratch
The problem with that one is that it also affects goblinized characters.
Stumps
QUOTE (Mercer)
Well, we can do it your way. Kind of mature and all. Not that thats a bad thing. Necessarily. Or, we could arm wrestle. (*Puts elbow on the table and turns hat backwards like Sylvester Stallone in Over the Top*)

*Throws arm up and flips toothpick to other side of the mouth.*
"Bring it."
grinbig.gif

QUOTE (toturi)
So guys, who is arguing what? Is it natural or the game atmosphere?

No, what the two sides of it are saying is that either a penalized Racial Charisma is something that comes from the traits of that race, or that it is something that comes from the worlds perceptions of that race.

I say it's the later.
My reason is based out of the view that a Race of people cannot have bad Charisma among themselves due to a Racial penalty.
They can have bad Charisma among themselves due to Individual penalties.
With this being my view, the Racial penalty becomes one that is viewed as existing because of the populations racism against Trolls.
In this interpitation, it makes no sense for the Charisma Penalty to exist for the Troll 100% of the time, but rather to instead exist only when an NPC is found to be a racist against Trolls.

QUOTE (toturi)
Anyway, I would put it this way... The game world should reflect the game mechanics.

Yes, it should. And I would hope that everyone thinks that.
The issue here is a debate on whether or not the game mechanics do reflect the game world.
As you can see, in my views and interpitations, they do not.

QUOTE (toturi)
What I am saying is that Cause and Effect are interlinked. If you have the Effect, you may deduce the Cause and vice versa. So the game mechanics will inevitably reflected in the game world.

The cause and effect, in this case, are being questioned as to the proper link.
I view that they are not linked right.

QUOTE (Glyph)
Personally, I have always seen Charisma as primarily a mental Attribute.

That's fine and all. But that's not the issue.
Regardless of what charisma individually represents about a character, the issue here is one about whether or not that mental or physical Charisma would or should be penalizing an entire race when they deal with themselves or people who are not racist against them.
In my standing. I say no, as it makes no sense to me.

Glyph, your explination is nice and all, but it doesn't answer the issue of whether or not they would or should suffer the penalty when dealing with themselves.
If they all have bad charisma when dealing with other races, in comparison to the human's charismatic dealings with other races, then how do they have a hard time as an entire race in dealing with themselves in ragards to Charisma?
toturi
I think the definative test for your argument would be this: Would a Troll be more successful if he was pitting his Cha against another Troll than if he would do against a nonprejudiced Human? If he is, then your theory is not true. But if he isn't and he is just as successful against a Troll as a Human then, I concede your point.
Stumps
toturi

He is just as successful with a non-prejudice human as he is with a Troll.
The part that I am saying is that the penalty to Cha should only happen when he meets prejudice.

I used the example of relation to his own race because it's the easiest to see an oddity in the penalty.

When a Troll meets prejudice humans, or meta-humans then he has a more difficult time in dealing with the charisma that he has, and that is besides the racism that the NPC holds themselves.

I simply cannot rationalize, nor will I ever be able to rationalize, a race wide penalty to something as individualistic as charisma based on any reasoning outside of racism such as any reason stating short-commings of social impressiveness by Trolls.
toturi
The question is: Is he really?

You are saying that he should be, not is he or isn't he because only the game designers can do that! It is a description of their game world. In your game world, the troll is equally successful, and I do not disagree; it is afterall your view.

I am saying that the game designers intended for the trolls and orks to have the Charisma penalty and they tried (inadequately, perhaps) to rationalise it.

You might not be able to rationalise it, but I can see appearances being part of Charisma. Charisma, to me, is multifaceted; there is no conflict to Charisma being external appearance and astral ability at the same time. An elephant has 4 legs and a long trunk; it is not just the trunk or the legs. It seems to me that you are unable to see the whole "elephant" as it were.
Stumps
Again, I don't care what Charisma represents in it's social aspects.
Physical, mental, ass-wiping, dixie cup twirling talent, mojo, whatever
It's not about what charisma exactly is, but rather about when this penalty should happen.

I don't care that the penalty is in place.
I agree with the penalty being in place.

I don't care that Trolls are penalized with having bad charismatic involvements by and large.
I agree with that.

What I don't agree with is the frequency of it.
100% of the time is folly in my mind.
Only when racism is concerned is better put when Charisma involves social interactions.

With all the other aspects that Charisma is part of, I don't care that it's 100% of the time active with the penalty.

In other words.
The penalty stays on at -2 for 100% of the time except in regards to Social Interactions.
In these cases, the -2 penalty will only occur when the NPC is racist against Trolls.

The Astral plane can always see Trolls with a -2 to charisma and the other areas of concern for all I care at this point.
toturi
A flat out Charisma penalty is also the manner in which the game designers reflect ugliness. The ghouls do not figure into the Racism Table, but they do have a Cha penalty. What you do not seem to wrap your head around is Ugliness = Cha penalty, and I do not really know how to convince you of that.
Stumps
You can't.
The reason that you can't say that the ugliness is what the penalty is for is two fold:
1) ugliness is a Flaw
2) If ugliness is the reason for the penalty, then the Troll would suffer no penalty amongst themselves. But they do.
toturi
QUOTE (Stumps)
1) ugliness is a Flaw
2) If ugliness is the reason for the penalty, then the Troll would suffer no penalty amongst themselves. But they do.

I do not recall such a Flaw... mayhaps you can refresh my memory?

I do not understand your second statement. In SR at least, appearance seems to be a fixed line. Ugliness is on one end and Pretty is on the other. The closer you move to absolute ugliness the more penalties you suffer and the more you move to absolute Prettiness you get more bonuses. So it doesn't matter if 2 ugly people are talking to each other, they suffer the same penalties. Or if 2 pretty people are talking, they have the same bonuses.
Stumps
First one...sorry, was supposed to read: Ugliness SHOULD be a flaw.
Reasoning that Human Looking is an edge, I don't see why ugliness isn't in there.

But I'm wrong to actually bring that up at this point because it side-tracks the conversation.

To the other part of what you posted.
QUOTE
I do not understand your second statement. In SR at least, appearance seems to be a fixed line. Ugliness is on one end and Pretty is on the other. The closer you move to absolute ugliness the more penalties you suffer and the more you move to absolute Prettiness you get more bonuses. So it doesn't matter if 2 ugly people are talking to each other, they suffer the same penalties. Or if 2 pretty people are talking, they have the same bonuses.

A few things.
First, serious.
Under this exact logic, ugliness is an individual characteristic.
To slam it on an entire Race is pretty lame.
Sure, when they are viewed by other races those other races could call them ugly.
But that holds no water amongst their own race, and besides that, other races would look ugly to them under this logic.
For example, Elves may very well be a sore eye for a Troll.
Why then, aren't they receiving -X Charisma? (I realize that this is not stated anywhere in the books...it's hipothetical)
Orcs are more like Trolls, so Trolls would reasonably look less ugly to them than to other races. Why then is a Troll not at -1 Charisma when dealing with Orcs, if this logic is the fact?
(It may very well have been the designers intent, but they're way of representing it is folly.)

Second.
QUOTE
So it doesn't matter if 2 ugly people are talking to each other, they suffer the same penalties. Or if 2 pretty people are talking, they have the same bonuses.

That is absolutely rediculous.

Take two african-american people from long ago in america.
They were considered to be ugly by the masses.
Now, were they suffering from being socially ugly when they were hitting on eachother?
Hell no!
They still had their own values of pretty and ugly and their whole race didn't suffer a charismatic penalty when dealing with eachother.
It only happened when they dealt with the other races that thought that they were ugly.
Mercer
Charisma can't represent ugliness because:
1) It is the stat for too many things that exist completely seperate from beauty. Conjuring, astral strength and one's social ability has nothing whatsoever to do with beauty.

2) Charisma is a a set Stat, it has a definable number value in the same way STR and BOD do. Beauty is an indefinable thing, totally based in the perception of the viewer, for which there is no acceptable baseline standard. Every single person on Earth has a different idea of beauty.

3) Charisma doesn't fluctuate, unless modified by spells that specifically affect CHA. Spells that modify appearance provide no bonus to Charisma. Shapechanging from Ork to Elf provides no CHA bonus, despite the fact you "look" exactly like an elf.

4) Since beauty is indefinable (beyond, "You know it when you see it"), it does not have a mechanical component. You can't say someone is two points prettier than someone else, because nobody can even agree on what beauty is. (Has anyone ever read a Maxim's 100 Most Beautiful Women and thought that not only are they listed in the correct order, but that those were all the 100 most beautiful women? And if beauty was definable, wouldn't the 100 most beautiful women all look pretty much the same?)

If the game designers meant for Charisma to be the stat for beauty (or ugliness), they forgot to write it anywhere into the actual rules. There is nothing mechanically stopping anyone from playing an Ugly CHA 8 elf, or a CHA 1 supermodel of any race. Saying that physical attractiveness even factors in slightly to Charisma lays so many logic mines that its impossible to get from one side of the idea to the other without getting blown up so many times you're using your ass for a hat.

So thats one thing.

On the other hand, Stumps, as I see it you and I are in close agreement for most of this discussion, and then arrive at different conclusions. We both agree that neither "looks" nor society's views would be enough to give trogs a blanket minus to CHA. There are too many obvious fallacies in the argument for it to stand, and we've spent a lot of time pointing them out.

Then we part ways. You say that since it doesn't make sense for CHA to be influenced by these things, we should change the way CHA is modified so that orks and trolls suffer no penalty from people who aren't prejudiced against them, and that an alternate method of minuses should reflect that prejudice. I say that CHA is inviolate, and does not fluctuate based on the perceptions of those around you, therefore the minus to CHA is something inherent to those metatypes in the exact same manner as the minus to INT or the bonus to STR or BOD is inherent.

To my viewpoint, an ork's Charisma is always one lower than the corresponding human (the human with the same point allocation, a simple example in game terms and one that would boggle the mind if we were to try and come up with a real world example), and the Racial Maximum for an ork's Charisma will always be 7 to the human's 9 (or the elf's 12). This works in exactly the same way, and for the same reason, as INT; and the ork's INT will be one lower-- and his Racial Maximum two lower-- than the "identical" human.

Prejudice, racism and reverse racism, rather than altering the base stat, should simply be modifiers to the tn# for whatever social test the character is attempting, since they deal only with social aspects. But since the stat bonuses and minuses themselves don't have anything to do with racism or public perception, then there is no need to change them. We're still trying to fix the same problem, but you're doing it by rebuilding the engine and I'm doing it by switching out a bad minor part.

Final thing: I don't have a problem with a new, more detailed mechanic to handle racism, I just think that since CHA exists entirely seperate from racism, there is no need to alter CHA to make the mechanic work.


Stumps
I agree with so much of that last post.

But you are a little mistaken on what my change is I think.
I dropped the entire Racism Table make-over.

Instead, all I was looking at was making the -2 to Cha only apply 100% of the time to everything but social issues.
During those social instances, it's applied only when meeting a racist.

That was my idea.

I can see your point as well Mercer.
I think one could view Charisma as a non-fluctuating stat.
....

*tired*

I don't know...it just comes off as very wrong.

Actually...to be honest. The entire bonus/negative system very ugly to me.
I'd much rather it be done another way.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Stumps @ Dec 5 2004, 11:00 AM)
Take two african-american people from long ago in america.
They were considered to be ugly by the masses.
Now, were they suffering from being socially ugly when they were hitting on eachother?
Hell no!
They still had their own values of pretty and ugly and their whole race didn't suffer a charismatic penalty when dealing with eachother.

Which is why fairly toxic skin-lightening creams are so popular (well, this is more in Africa proper than Americans of African descent). Right. Yeah.

~J
Ed Simons
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Stumps @ Dec 5 2004, 11:05 PM)
1) ugliness is a Flaw

I do not recall such a Flaw... mayhaps you can refresh my memory?

It's on the Flaws table on p.31 of the Shadowrun Companion.
Ol' Scratch
Note that it's "Ugly and Knows It," indicating its as much a mental flaw as a physical one. And even then, it doesn't affect Charisma in the slightest.
Mercer
QUOTE (Stumps)
Actually...to be honest.  The entire bonus/negative system very ugly to me.
I'd much rather it be done another way.

Something I thought of during the course of this topic, but didn't add because it would be off topic (but now its on topic), was to remove the stat penalties and bonuses from Character Creation, and instead just make them modifiers to the Racial Maximums. An ork could start with a 9 Body if he put 9 points into Body, but he couldn't go any higher at creation. Likewise, a CHA 5 would cost him 5 points, and would also be as high as he could go at creation.

You'd either have to lower the cost to be a metahuman, or screw the metas over a little though, because they'd be losing 3 or 4 stat points overall in the translation. Anyway, that was my idea, it doesn't make it a good one.
Glyph
I see Charisma as mainly a mental, rather than physical, characteristic because of how it is treated in the rules. It is used for all social skills, including the not-so-nice ones like intimidation, and is used for your astral Strength (mirroring your strength of personality). Things like good looks, plastic surgery, or ugliness do NOT affect the actual Charisma Attribute itself. And in the old Street Samurai Catalog, the ork street samurai, with his Charisma of 1, is still described as having a cultured accent and charming good looks - so the penalty is not because people find orks or trolls physically repulsive.


I think the fact that orks and trolls do suffer their Charisma penalties against their own kind show that it is not a matter of looks or social acceptance, but stunted mental ability, which could be from their accelerated physical maturity outpacing their mental development, or could be a difference in how their brains work. Note that humans are not at the top, mentally, themselves - they are more the middle of the road. Elves can have a higher Charisma, dwarves can have a higher Willpower, and certain shapeshifters such as eagle and fox can be better on multiple mental Attributes.
Kagetenshi
Shapeshifters can't really be compared; they aren't metahumans.

~J
Stumps
You know what Doc.
I can see how Ugly and Doesn't Care and Good Looking and Knows It can be missed in the rules if you don't look at the table you refer to.
The reason that I missed them when I went looking for a page number for it and found none (and also thought I was going crazy) was that neither of those are listed in the defining text in the Social Edges and Flaws section.
Instead, they are listed on page 17 in an Example Paragraph only.

WAY TO FRICKEN GO AUTHORS!

Anyways.
To slam a nail in the coffin of Charisma being about looks:
Here's all the Edges & Flaws I was just looking at that related to looks:
Ugly and Doesn't Care
Good Looking and Knows It
Human Looking
Friendly Face

To add another round in the chamber of why Charisma is a bad thing to have a negative to for an entire Race: (and this doesn't say that other attributes are good either)
Edges & Flaws that deal with Social Issues:
Uncouth

I almost need to list nothing else other than that.
If you bother to read the description, they pretty much shoot themselves in the foot with that Flaw in regards to having a Charisma penalty.
QUOTE
An Uncouth character has no social graces.  Such characters suffer a +2 target modifier on Social Skill Tests (including Negotiation and Ettiquette Tests.)
This Flaw is common among street muscle-types, and many professional shadowrunners consider it the mark of an ameture.

I'm reading things in there that sound like Trolls.
"no social graces"
Check, Trolls are viewed as rather graceless in their social skills.

"common among street muscle-types"
Check, Trolls are commonly known to be "muscle-types"

And look at that...this Flaw here adds +2TN to the social skill test.
Hey, I remember doing that myself when I was revamping the Racism Table.
hmm....

Kagetenshi
On the chart on Page 31, both the edge and flaw are explicitly marked "Example [edge/flaw]" with a reference to page 17. Obviously, such a massive act of stupidity on the part of the authors.

~J
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