From what I remember of climbing, the bulk of your power comes in the form of your fingers, forarms, and legs. Not, as many think, from your biceps or triceps.
That is, unless you're trying some Tom Cruise Mission Impossible 2 swinging around by your arms/pull-ups b.s.

Other than power, alot of what I relied on when climbing was positioning and momentum.
More often than not, to reach a hard-to-reach hold, I had to crouch momentarily and then leap (so to speak) towards my target area with a portion of my previous hold still firm, like my left toe or (if lucky) foot.
Most of the progressive climbing was a series of transitioning your body from one akward position into another.
One moment my right leg would be at about hip level and the next I would need to swing it up and wedge it into place about chest level, then you progress with the next body part. In this case it would most likely be which ever hand was not my primary weight holder that I'm leaning on the most. Then the primary hand has to follow and then the use of both of my hands in a slight pull with most of the pulling strength in my arms coming from my new primary weight holder, and the bulk of the strength coming from my chest level leg once I pull my body up enough to level it off for supplying strength. Finally, I would be at a vatage point good enough to swing or place my trailing leg into place and rest a moment while I examine the area for the next progressive movement.

It's not really about strength.
It's more about flexibiliy.

Now, if a Troll body can plausibly be determined to be less flexible than that of a human body then it could be reasonably theorized that a Troll would have a harder time climbing than a human.

Arnold Schwarzenegger would have a harder time than a long distance runner when climbing because his body isn't as flexible or as built on endurance, even though the long distance runner is smaller, more nimble, and not as strong in bulk.

What needs to be studied is whether or not humans today, that are roughly the near physique of a troll in SR, have any difficulties in climbing compared to those of average human size (which I believe in SR's world was said to be 5'10'' or around there.).

If they do, then Doc's idea can be claimed as valid. Just with another reasoning behind it.

What would you define as a human with a troll-like physique?

I can compare the following people at my centre 17st(6'2"), 18st(6'4"), 20st (6'3"), 14st(6'5") against average build well as a collection of short-arses.

My reasoning beind giving trolls a -TN# to sensory tests comes from a number of angles, but I feel could bypass the whole arguement of brain damage.

Neanderthals have been thought to have a greater development in the areas of the brain relating senses than sapiens, with sapiens having a greater development in those areas related to communication. This has been postulated from the internal skull configuration, not that external phrenology crap.

In a low tech/pre-historical environment heighted senses are a boon to the individual informing them of what is going on nearby, out of LoS. Intelligence and knowledge are imparted and natured by good communication of ideas, this only becomes a prime characteristic when there is a body of abstract information to pass on. As our society has developed, good physical senses played less and less of a role. In an example of smell, dogs have replaced our noses and to some extent hearing as well.

With poorer communication abilities, trolls would suffer in their ability to absorb and impart knowledge, and have poor charisma. A heightened development of their physical sensorium coupled with a powerful physical body would tend to concentrate their mental development in the physical, putting their astral forms at a fundemental disadvantage. There are a few oddities about the trolls physical form (ie. weight/volume discrepancy and no joint problems) that could be indicative of a constant mana use similar to adepts that may also adversly effect troll interaction with the astral plane.

The small bonus to sense checks IMHO would not unbalance the game. In an age where magic and cyber can increase the effectiveness of senses magnitudes above this, a small boost to a disadvantaged race is not much. The other consideration is to the usefulness of the bonus. A sense of smell in an atmosphere that is air-conned or full of contaminates is limited in scope and comletely nullified by gas-masks. Without additional sound filters, heightened hearing in a modern environment is outclassed by even simple hearing augmentation, etc. Strip away magic and cyber and use a natural environment, and yes it is noticeable advantage, but that is not how most of SR played.

Re-inforcement of the skull, I continue to plug this because I don't accept the arguement that a trolls high BOD represents that. Many pieces of cyberware increase BOD, but could not have a noticeable effect on the skull, such as replacement, augmentation, and bio-ware organs. Conversly adding headware (other than a cyberskull) has no adjustment to the strength of the skull or the ability of the brain to cope with damage. IMHO their high BOD is a reflection of their physical size, fitness and GENERAL damage resistance (bulk) with a SPECIFIC bonus of +1BOD for damage resistance that is applied to the whole body evenly. If we are using the standard canon karma costs for increasing attributes, why does it costs so much for a "sedantary" troll to increase their fitness to "normal-active", especially if part of that heightnening BOD modifier is just a thicker skull and not just body mass and muscle tone. Adding 1 or 2 points of armour to the head to reflect a tougher head than human standard adds flavour, gives additional justification to the poor mental attributes and only adds a game benefit if the troll's head is specifically targeted.

Stumps, thank you for a good summary of climbing. My point is that a hard route is hard mainly because of hard to reach holds, if you have arms that are as long as many people are tall and are as broad as 2 people you can reach a lot more useful holds. This is an advantage, poor power to weight ratio is a handicap. Without having to prove which is has the biggest effect on a 1 point penalty, scrap the 1 point penalty (rounding down). Pick a skill area that requires putting large strong things in small delicate things, like biomed, or B/R skills. Basically something that reflects a modern environment being 2/3rds scale for trolls.

Ok please realize this: You don't have a biological argument. Do what you want to do but don't pretend it is somehow justified by current scientific knowledge. Thanks.

You're still looking at this from the wrong angle, IMO. You're taking what you believe to be the case and making the rules fit it, rather than taking the rules and trying to find an explanation for them.

Then again, I've already said as much.

~J

Actually I was trying to make trolls fit the game balance rules, with a minor adjustment to justify them. Its Doc Funk who came up with alternate BP system.

Its not so much that I am bending trolls more that SR hasn't done anything in detail with them. Actually SR seems to have pretty much ignored them outside of a few forced game mechanic sections.

Although you are right about the quadrapedal troll thread.

Trolls are already about as balanced as they can be as far as the rules are concerned. If you give them any more bonuses, or take away some of their negatives, then they won't be balanced against the rest of the races.

Ya' know, I really enjoy this stupid website, and I like reading these inane discussions on the various boards, so I certainly wouldn't do anything to get spanked by the Powers that Be for flaming. And I'm not. Honestly. But I have to admit that sometimes--just sometime--I read enough that I actually begin to get a mental picture in my head. Normally I'd keep it to myself, but the image is so strong this time that I feel that I've just gotta share or I'll burst.

On the longest night of the year, I see this individual alone, naked, in his mother's basement: his eyes are slightly glazed over from the glare of the moniter; left arm and brown-eye sore from the vicious rythem of an unshed moose horn; body still soaking wet from the sweaty exertions of a particularly vigerous bout of "teaching Willie who's the boss" while fantasizing about the biology teacher he had in 7th grade (who, even then, was in her late 80's) unfurling her labia like a gigantic ball-less scrotum to infold his head as she whispers how big his biology degree was. With smirking glee he gets up off of all fours and deposits his girth onto a cinder block to type a snide, condescending, ego-enflated, yet strangely odious response that he hopes will silence the voices in his head that tell him 3" really isn't average and that everyone knows about his nasty case of anal worms--for to know biology an individual must become ONE with biology--and are secretly laughing at him. In an effort to avoid criticism from those who seem to understand that an anonymous internet message board is no place to prove one's credentials, he no doubt types the word "thanks" at the end of his post in hopes of sounding more reasonable, but (in the words of Bill) thanks to the use of halucinoginic drugs, I see through you.

To this person I must say this: Please look at your genitals. Go on, use a floor mirror if you have too, just do it. Notice how they have turned orange? This is a result of masturbating and eating Cheetos at the same time; there is no biological argument nor scientific fact for why it happens, but its there none the less. Stop doing that. Thanks.

Deadeye brings up a salient point, that due to a troll's pronounced musculature and bone structure, were he to masturbate and eat Cheetos at the same time the effect (Cheezy Weenie) would be much more pronounced.

I would only offer this advice to Deadeye: Do not gaze for long into the cheezy weenie, for as you do the cheezy weenie gazes also into you.

Deadeye, much as other people may say things and it doesn't make them so, saying you aren't flaming doesn't make it true.

~J

Ded-i, be careful some people's sense of humour isn't that broad.

Stumps,

In question 1 are you refering when blind people seem to have better hearing?

Botch, that would work as an active example, yeah.

Of course, in the case of the Troll, it's probably a little more profound of a change than that of a blind person's gain in hearing.

Weight lifting is straight Strength, unless I misremember the SRComp.

~J

I don't know if that's already been posted (haven't dug through those 17 pages yet), but...

I don't handle the Int penalties on orks and trolls as racial 'stupidity'.

The way I handle it, orks are direct thinkers. They prefer the straightforward approach everytime (somewhat related to their short lifespans...they have no time for useless bells and whistles). An ork is limited compared to a human not in reasoning capacity (which I regard as mostly equal) but in creativity and versatility. An ork mind is powerful, but in the same way that a train engine is powerful...it runs on rails and has trouble switching to a different track.

Trolls, on the other hand, are slow. They'll eventually come to the same conclusions as every other race, they just take more time to think about it. As a result, trolls sometimes spot things that the 'hastier' metatypes overlook...after a long, long time.

I like that a lot. I prefer it to simple loss of processing power. It adds a level of sublety to the mechanic.

Mindif I use it in my next game?

Not at all.

Thanks.

Wow, that was by far the most imaginative and humerous flame I have ever received. I'm honored that my comments made you think that hard and occupy that much of your time. Thanks. lol!

I'm guessing that it's either a REALLY thick layer of fat over the gray matter, or some spare neurons. Both of these reflect Trolls' +6 to body; their nervous system is beefed up, too.
Also, trolls may just have a great deal more fluid inside of their heads and a similarly sized head. This would offer the brain a cushion, allowing Trolls to better withstand head injury.

Yep. It sure as hell is.
Of course....that was our whole point somewhere starting back on the earlier single digit pages.

Basically, this whole thing was a continual disection of an idea to make sure that the core of the idea checked out to make logical sense.
This had to be done because if it didn't make logical sense, then it would just be as bad, logically, as the present explination and system.

Mind you, I'm not going to be using this anytime soon, I merely sat back and asked questions to make sure it was adding up to make sense rather than throwing ideas out and no one ever going around and looking to read whether or not there was any evidence present to support the alternative idea.

Um, brain size doesn't correlate to IQ? I think it does and so do the whitecoats since they started using MRI on living subjects in stead of weighing a brain after subject death.

http://www.vcu.edu/uns/Releases/2005/june/...Big%20Brain.pdf

wow. looks like Amazon finally shipped someone's copy of Threadus Necronomicus.

Yeah, thats a pretty good res.