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mmu1
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 20 2005, 03:19 PM)
You caculations were accurate, but irrelevant.  I wasn't talking about 20 dice, I was talking about some imaginary number of dice at which such a feat is possible.  Afterall, the discussion wasn't about someone who was very good a quite a few things, it was someone who was the best professional at everything.  Everything.

Good God... If someone shakes you, do you rattle?

The problem with SR4 caps can come into play even with starting characters - it's a real issue.

The SR3 "problem" of yours is - by your own admission - imaginary, because it only occurs when we deal with imaginary characters.

You don't win an argument by asking the other side to accept an imaginary siutation where reality no longer applies.
SL James
QUOTE (Ellery)
No, he supports caps.  Read again--he's saying he'd rather reach the pinnacle at creation time than never reach it.

Seems kind of like entering a cheat code and getting all the powerups for free at the start of the game.

And so... Where's the fun in that?
Nerbert
Allow me to rephrase.

I like being able to reach the pinacle of human ability.

I don't care how fast it can be reached.

I dislike the lack of a pinacle in the old system.

It is merely a matter of preference.
SL James
Clearly.

I think the pinnacle of human ability is a myth.

I think that being the best at everything at any point, whether you have 50, 100, 200, or 2,000 karma is insane.
Nerbert
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 20 2005, 03:19 PM)
You caculations were accurate, but irrelevant.  I wasn't talking about 20 dice, I was talking about some imaginary number of dice at which such a feat is possible.  Afterall, the discussion wasn't about someone who was very good a quite a few things, it was someone who was the best professional at everything.  Everything.

Good God... If someone shakes you, do you rattle?

The problem with SR4 caps can come into play even with starting characters - it's a real issue.

The SR3 "problem" of yours is - by your own admission - imaginary, because it only occurs when we deal with imaginary characters.

You don't win an argument by asking the other side to accept an imaginary siutation where reality no longer applies.

Ok, I am not and never, ever was talking about being able to be the best at one thing.

I was talking about being able to be the best at EVERYTHING. Every skill, every attribute, everything.

This is possible with the new SR4 skills caps.

It is not possible at character creation.

*rattle rattle* sarcastic.gif
Nerbert
QUOTE (SL James)
Clearly.

I think the pinnacle of human ability is a myth.

See, I think people should have limits. Thats grittiness to me. Not the fact that someone out there is better, but the fact that even the best isn't always enough.
SL James
I thought that was what high TNs (and now Thresholds) are for.
Nerbert
QUOTE (SL James)
I thought that was what high TNs (and now Thresholds) are for.

But those aren't limits on people. Without caps, given a long enough timeline any goal can be overcome. Skill and attribute caps mean that eventually, no matter how good you are you just can't succeed without luck. Which is what edge is for. In this sense I suppose that edge represents a drive to overcome even the strictest of physical limitations.
Kagetenshi
TN 30, test that does not allow pools, looking for at least a 1-in-100 shot of success requires a skill of 79. If you allow pools you've got a theoretical minimum skill of 40 to achieve it, so let's go with that. Let's also assume that you break the rules and have a 40 in the linked attribute.

Karma spent: ~1,350.

Note that this involves rampant breaking of the rules anyway.

That's some timeframe.

~J
Nerbert
I think we can wait for a wide distribution of the book before we start trying to figure out the amount of Karma required to max out every Attribute and Active skill in SR4.
blakkie
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 20 2005, 02:22 PM)
I think we can wait for a wide distribution of the book before we start trying to figure out the amount of Karma required to max out every Attribute and Active skill in SR4.

I'm really curious how many BP are needed to get a character to the peak in a physical/mental mundane skill (including skill, specialization, attributes, Qualities, 'ware, magic, and Edge), assuming it is actually possible using standard creation availablity.

I think we could figure out most of that now, short of the magic and 'ware.
mmu1
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 20 2005, 04:22 PM)
I think we can wait for a wide distribution of the book before we start trying to figure out the amount of Karma required to max out every Attribute and Active skill in SR4.

Why wait? Not having the rules hasn't stopped you once so far when it came to arguing that SR4 is going to be the bestest thing ever.

Why this sudden interest in actually seeing what the rules say? Could it be you need something to hide behind when even hyperbole and imaginary arguments run out?
Ellery
QUOTE
I think we can wait for a wide distribution of the book before we start trying to figure out the amount of Karma required to max out every Attribute and Active skill in SR4.


For skills we'll have to wait, because we know costs but not the number of them.

For attributes, we can count bp costs right now: 9 attributes, max 6, costs 65 points to max an attribute. Total cost, 585bp.

If you're a magician or technomancer, you have another attribute to max, bringing you up to 650bp. Since anyone can be a magician or technomancer for minimal cost, maybe the 650bp number is fairer.

Skills cost 24bp to hit the cap (60bp for skill groups), but without knowing how many there are, one can't do much with that.
blakkie
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 20 2005, 04:22 PM)
I think we can wait for a wide distribution of the book before we start trying to figure out the amount of Karma required to max out every Attribute and Active skill in SR4.

Why wait? Not having the rules hasn't stopped you once so far when it came to arguing that SR4 is going to be the bestest thing ever.

Why this sudden interest in actually seeing what the rules say? Could it be you need something to hide behind when even hyperbole and imaginary arguments run out?

Careful with the wide, full-auto burst. You'll catch a LOT of people here with that. Maybe even shoot yourself in the foot?

*goes Full Defense* rollin.gif
Nerbert
QUOTE (mmu1)
Why wait? Not having the rules hasn't stopped you once so far when it came to arguing that SR4 is going to be the bestest thing ever.

Ironically, I think this piece of invective actually brings us back on topic to the original purpose of the thread.

I like Shadowrun 4. I am satisfied with the rule changes that I have seen and I am optimistic about their utility in game play. I look forward to being able to persuade my friends to give the Shadowrun universe another chance. I am very excited about giving "Deckers" a functional, fun place within my games.
mmu1
QUOTE (blakkie)
Careful with the wide, full-auto burst. You'll catch a LOT of people here with that. Maybe even shoot yourself in the foot?

I'm not worried...

BTW, nice to see you still rolling. biggrin.gif
El Ojitos
spin.gif Metahumans without caps? Think about it. That would mean that a runner could, if he spent enough time on training, outrun a racecar. A jet plane. Light.
The fact that the top 10 runners in the world have the same skill and attribute value of 6 (or 7) doesn't mean that every Olympic race will end in a tie. It just means that each one of them is equally likely to win. Only the one who actually wins is the fastest runner in the world - and the others aren't, no matter what stats they have. In the next race, results may be different - such is life. And from time to time even a runner with lower stats might by sheer luck (or Edge) win a race.
In my view that makes for a nice simulation of reality. Sure, if you only have stat values from 1 to 7 that doesn't create much granularity, but that isn't a caps problem.
The fact that you can reach the pinnacle of your ability at chargen ist a different matter, that has really nothing to do with caps. And even that isn't really a problem. Unlike other RPGs SR does not simulate 15-year old rookies making their way up. You can easily create a char with a backstory that would explain why he a) is world-class at one thing and b) sucks at everything else - like a highly-trained ex-athlete e.g.
It might be a nice idea, though, to introduce SOTA-rules for skills, reflecting the constant need for training or staying abreast with developements.
blakkie
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Aug 20 2005, 03:00 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 20 2005, 04:41 PM)
Careful with the wide, full-auto burst. You'll catch a LOT of people here with that. Maybe even shoot yourself in the foot?

I'm not worried...

Highly armoured boots? Good idea!
blakkie
QUOTE (SL James)
Clearly.

I think the pinnacle of human ability is a myth.

I think that being the best at everything at any point, whether you have 50, 100, 200, or 2,000 karma is insane.

I think this idea 'karma' in general, and being usable to increase a skill or ability you didn't actually use during the gaining of karma, is on the insane myth side of things. *shrug*
Cain
QUOTE
I like being able to reach the pinacle of human ability.

I don't care how fast it can be reached.

I dislike the lack of a pinacle in the old system.

This makes no sense. SR3 has a "pinnacle" of human ability at 9, or 11 with Edges/Flaws. So, there clearly *was* a pinnacle in SR3, an dit was very clearly unreachable by starting characters.
QUOTE
Ok, I am not and never, ever was talking about being able to be the best at one thing.

I was talking about being able to be the best at EVERYTHING. Every skill, every attribute, everything.

This is possible with the new SR4 skills caps.

It is not possible at character creation.

Yes, and this is clearly a problem. No one can be (or should be) a world-class expert in everything. People should still have fields of experitse whee they'll shine, or else characters start getting overly generic. The lack of caps in SR3 made is so no matter how hard you worked, there was always another level to which you could push yourself-- without that, characters and players will lose their drive to improve themselves.

What I see hapening is that all characters will start having progressively more identical skill sets and 'ware loadouts. For example, implanted commlinks will become very common; so will a high Computer score, a Dodge skill, and a Perception skill. I also can't see why people wouldn't want to pump the hell out of ede, relying on it as an uberstat.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 20 2005, 03:41 PM)
What I see hapening is that all characters will start having progressively more identical skill sets and 'ware loadouts.  For example, implanted commlinks will become very common; so will a high Computer score, a Dodge skill, and a Perception skill.  I also can't see why people wouldn't want to pump the hell out of ede, relying on it as an uberstat.

The thing about Edge is that it looks like it will be at the end of every skill development path. So as PCs mature they are going to go there. But then again so it was with what Edge roughly speaking replaces, Karma Pool. However with Karma Pool there was no top end to it and there was no control over when it was increased (outside of race choice and a Flaw that affected the rate of increase).

Interestingly the fact that it didn't have a top end created god-game senarios centered around it as the uberstat unless the GM was able to get the players to regularly permanently burn KP points. Or, apparently, the option of very tightly controled partial refreshes were used.
nezumi
QUOTE (El Ojitos)
spin.gif Metahumans without caps? Think about it. That would mean that a runner could, if he spent enough time on training, outrun a racecar. A jet plane. Light.

Do you realize how astronomically high your athletics skill would have to be to outrun a car? How many years that would take of practice? Simply said, it would take longer than any non-immortal metahuman has. And I'd also like to point out that, of all the skills, athletics is second only to stealth in regards to 'most broken'. That's a flaw of the particular skill, not the system in general.

As for the olympics, very rarely do people enter the olympics and we don't have a guess on which 3 or 4 people are gold medal contenders. Thats 3 or 4 out of THE ENTIRE WORLD. So a skill of 7 represents .000000000005% of the population (assuming population of 60 billion. Sorry if I put an extra 0 in.) Somehow that seems a bit off, really. If 7 represents .00000000005% of the population, how much of the population does 6 represent? Is it less than 6 decimal places?

Seriously, caps are silly. Change athletics, if you want, so it's more accurately 'law of diminishing returns', but don't take away the ability to represent that 4 or 5 people who are best in the entire world (since we know that does come up in the real world).
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (blakkie)
unless the GM was able to get the players to regularly permanently burn KP points.

Seems like I never have a problem doing that.
Sabosect
So far? I like much of it. I'm a little fuzzy on some areas still, but that'll pass.

The rest of my group? Hates it.

Looks like I'll be laying SR4 online.
blakkie
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 20 2005, 04:50 PM)
unless the GM was able to get the players to regularly permanently burn KP points.

Seems like I never have a problem doing that.

Some did, some most certainly didn't. I think it was a combination of playing style and GM style that determined which happened. However to have an otherwise fine playing/GMing style spin so many games out into KPland seems to me to be a flaw.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect)
So far? I like much of it. I'm a little fuzzy on some areas still, but that'll pass.

The rest of my group? Hates it.

Looks like I'll be laying SR4 online.

Fortunately vengence is yours. vegm.gif
Sabosect
Yeah. They bitched about my choice of how they were going to go through the Yucaton. Now they have to deal with a Background count of 10 and have no weapons or clothes.
Ellery
I suppose you'd like it better if your players liked it too. That'd make things more harmonious at least.
DarusGrey
After waiting 3 days, and spending 3hours in line (Books go on sale at 1pm again!..line started up at about 10:30), and burning all my karma pool on the hand of god rule to even get a chance to buy one. I can proudly(or shamefully, depending on how you view obsession) say I picked up a limited edition(1 of 40 for sale at the con) copy of 4th edition.
Which made me quite happy...I kick myself daily for missing out on LE 3rd edition, which I've coveted for awhile.

First off let me say I was amazed by the response of the crowd, there were hundreds of people lined up to purchase them everyday at opening, they were selling out 5-15min after exhibit hall opened every day. There were lots of books and Fanpro couldn't possibly meet the demand, I'm sure alot of people were cursing for that, but as a player it was nice to see so much interest in the game.

That said, I was very trepadacious about 4th edition, I really loved 3rd ed, *really* loved it, so I was fairly skeptical about 4th.
Alot of the changes seemed "Shocking" at first, but then I realized I was comparing them to 3rd edition, a bad mistake to make.

As its own system, IMHO I can say I think SR4 has done a good job streamlining alot of the game, it still has the same "Feel" as the old system, well simply playing faster/better(or just differently, depending on how you feel).

One thing I really like is Edge, Edge was probably the thing I was fearing most, but IMHO(I should stop saying that, entire post is obviously all opinion) , they successfully kept the flavor/mechanics of karma pool, well adding new functionality, and eliminating most the "Abuses" of old karma pool(when it started getting broken wit 30..40...50..+ KP Dice).

Seeing how you can make dice still explode with edge was a great thing when I first read it, maybe its just me, but "Exploding Sucess" is a key element of the SR experience in my mind, was nice to see it still there, just not as prevaliant.

All in all the changes arn't as "Big" as I expected, as an oldtime SR player the mechanics made alot of sense for the most part, and didn't seem totally radical to the point of displeasure, overall I'm very happy with the system, and well I still like SR3 aton, I certainly won't hesitate playing SR4.

Edited in:
I was also very impressed with the amount of the old grimoire/MITS that was made "Core", initiation, centering,metaplanes etc, so its all in the core book, instead of a staple of magic being in an expansion.
El Ojitos
QUOTE (nezumi)
Do you realize how astronomically high your athletics skill would have to be to outrun a car?  How many years that would take of practice? Simply said, it would take longer than any non-immortal metahuman has.

As well it should! Still it's ludicrous to have a cap put on the ability of a character only by the amount of time he has to practice. It just doesn't work that way. The reason why the best athletes are so close together in any given competition is that they are very near the limit a mere human can reach. If you want to acchieve more than that you need to go beyond human capacity and use cyber or magic.

QUOTE
As for the olympics, very rarely do people enter the olympics and we don't have a guess on which 3 or 4 people are gold medal contenders.  Thats 3 or 4 out of THE ENTIRE WORLD.  So a skill of 7 represents .000000000005% of the population (assuming population of 60 billion).

Yes, we do have a pretty good idea who will win. (And sometimes we are wrong.) The problem here is not caps though, it's granularity. A skill of 7 does not represent .000000000005% of the world population. It represents all professional specialized athletes. The fact that Tiger Woods has the same skill value as every golf professional in the world is a bit sad, but it has nothing to do with the fact that there must be a limit to what a human can acchieve by training. Even if Woods had another 50 years of active career, he just couldn't increase his ability to the point where he can hit a hole-in-one every time from anywhere.

QUOTE
And I'd also like to point out that, of all the skills, athletics is second only to stealth in regards to 'most broken'.  That's a flaw of the particular skill, not the system in general.

My argument has nothing to do with any speciel mechanics of the athletics skill. If two guys have perfectly maxed out stats in, say, unarmed combat and they have a go at each other, only one of them will win. He is the better fighter.
It's what you do with your skill that makes you the best. If it wasn't, there would be no point in having tournaments because we already know everybody's statistics beforehand.
And that means that even when a char has reached the pinnacle of his developement, even it that happens at chargen, there are still many things he hasn't been tried against, there are always new challenges.
Ellery
The degree to which skills can be improved in humans is quite astounding, though. If you set up reasonable training times and reward structures, you don't have Tiger Woods hitting a hole in one from anywhere, unless Tiger Woods is an immortal elf and spends the entire time from now until the 8th age practicing.

Plus, even then, if the GM wanted an accurate golfing system, the distance you hit would be limited by strength, so most 4/5 pars wouldn't be holeable.

In terms of attributes (at least physical ones), an attainable maximum makes more sense; regardless of training, muscle can only physically be so strong, for instance, even if it's very difficult to reach that level.

That's why the SR3 system--hard to reach absolute cap on attributes, no limit on skill but high cost--seemed reasonable to me.

Edit: Also, Tiger Woods has 7. Other golf professionals have 6, at least according to the text descriptions. 7 is world-legend level (despite the relatively minimal cost).
nezumi
You do make a good point, Ojitos. But I still agree with Ellery's counter. Realistically, you shouldn't see something like athletics at a 20 (assuming that 7 is an olympic champion), and you can chalk the difference up between the gold medal winner and the 6th place runner up to lack of granularity. However, as Ellery pointed out, there IS a maximum cap put in place based on time. You effectively can't get athletics to 20 without other help because it would take too much time. Perhaps better enforcement, skills can't be higher than 1.5*linked attribute or something would make sense for your uber-high campaign.

That said, a cap of 7 IS silly. If 3 is average, 6 is only twice as good as average and 7 half a step above in no way reproduces the span of human skill. I consider myself a reasonable runner, but an olympic athlete can easily do a mile in less than half my time. I'm a reasonable programmer as well, but a hard-core professional should be able to do something better in far, far less time. A cap of 9, at minimum, should be considered if 3 is 'average'.
chevalier_neon
But average might mean "average professional" which means that you should have only 1 or 2 in runing or programing.... no ?
Ellery
Top-notch programmers routinely produce code 10x faster than normal career programmers. SR4 doesn't really capture this at all.

Come to think of it, SR3 doesn't really capture this dynamic, but it's closer.
hahnsoo
As far as a hard cap of Skills at 7, I'm guessing that higher skill levels may be addressed in a future "companion" book, along with Shapeshifter/Ghoul/Vampire PCs, Metavariants, and all sorts of kooky things. Remember, SR4 is designed to be not only a compiled BBB reference (and god, did they PACK a lot of stuff in there... initiation rules, addiction rules, bioware, and almost all of the essential RP information that was from Sprawl Survival Guide), but also as an introduction to the game for a new player/GM. Perhaps the attribute/skill caps are in place so that new GMs won't pull their hair out when starting characters start to wallop all over the NPCs due to extreme specialization.
Ellery
They've already said Einstein was skill 7. I don't think that leaves them much room to allow higher skills, except to say, "Um, never mind about that."
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 21 2005, 07:33 AM)
They've already said Einstein was skill 7.  I don't think that leaves them much room to allow higher skills, except to say, "Um, never mind about that."

Well, of course. It'll probably be something like "We don't recommend that you increase the skill cap, but if you are playing a high powered campaign, yadda yadda..."

Basically, some caveats along with "Here you go, play with it and see if you like it", just like the High Powered/Low Powered campaign section out of MJLBB (or was it Sprawl Survival Guide? I don't remember).
Ellery
Incidentally, we now have the skill list available. There are 13 skill groups, which cost 60bp to max each, for 690bp total; and 23 ungrouped skills, which cost 24bp each, for 552bp total. The details on how to reach 7 are unclear, so we'll leave that part out for now. Knowledge skills are not specified and probably unlimited, so we'll leave that part out also.

So, for a magically active character, you can have 6s in all attributes and all active skills for 1892bp. If you start with a 400bp character, that leaves about 1500bp-equivalents to hit 6 in everything.
hahnsoo
Yeah, I wrote that list. And I stealth-edited an additional skill, Heavy Weapons. Forgot to add that in there.

Just for reference, Karma Costs to improve "things":
New Active Skill (Rating 1) - 4 Karma
New Active Skill Group (Rating 1) - 10 Karma
New Knowledge/Language Skill (Rating 1) - 2 Karma
New Specialization (tack on a +2 for the Specialization, only ONE specialization is allowed for any skill, and new specializations "overwrite" the old ones, but only at GM's discretion) - 2 Karma
(Special Note: Raising a Skill above 6 costs double the usual amount of Karma, and can only be done if you have Aptitude in that skill)
Improving an Active Skill by 1 - (New Rating) x 2 Karma
Improving an Active Skill Group by 1 - (New Rating) x 5 Karma
Improving an Attribute by 1 - (New Rating) x 3 Karma
Improving a Knowledge/Language skill by 1 - (New Rating) Karma
New Positive Quality (the old "Edge") - BP Cost x 2 Karma
Removing a Negative Quality ("Flaws") - BP Bonus x 2 Karma
New Spell - 5 Karma
New Complex Form (Rating 1) - 2 Karma
Improving a Complex Form by 1 - (New Rating)
Ellery
*blink*...it only costs 18 karma to raise an attribute from 5 to 6? Or is there an exception there?

P.S. I know you know. I was more thinking of Nerbert, who was the one who said we couldn't calculate this yet.
mintcar
QUOTE (Ellery)
Top-notch programmers routinely produce code 10x faster than normal career programmers. SR4 doesn't really capture this at all.

Come to think of it, SR3 doesn't really capture this dynamic, but it's closer.

So let every hit half the time, or even divide by 3 or 4 in the case of programing. Stuff like that needs to be GM call.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Ellery)
*blink*...it only costs 18 karma to raise an attribute from 5 to 6? Or is there an exception there?

Yeah, I blinked, too. I didn't find anything that said the Karma cost was increased... it's only for the Skills under the Aptitude Edge, AFAIK. One thing I did notice is that 2nd edition had Karma cost for attributes equal to the new rating, 3rd edition had the Karma cost equal to the new rating times 2, and now in 4th edition, it's new rating times 3.
blakkie
QUOTE (mintcar @ Aug 21 2005, 07:07 AM)
QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 21 2005, 07:25 AM)
Top-notch programmers routinely produce code 10x faster than normal career programmers.  SR4 doesn't really capture this at all.

Come to think of it, SR3 doesn't really capture this dynamic, but it's closer.

So let every hit half the time, or even divide by 3 or 4 in the case of programing. Stuff like that needs to be GM call.

Programming would fall under extended tests. Until we hear how they work it is hard to say. But if the apply a threshhold every time you roll, and you roll till you get a total number required for the task then at certain threshholds vs. dice pool numbers an extra success would 1/2 the time.

P.S. Unless someone has already posted about extended tests. I haven't had time to read all the stuff here yet this morning.
hahnsoo
Extended tests are written up in the following manner:
Dice Pool (Threshold, Time)

For example, Strength + Swimming (5, 1 hour). You roll multiple times, tallying up hits until you exceed the threshold. Each roll represents the time period listed. For example, in the previous test, if you were swimming across a lake, and you rolled three times (finally accumulating 5 hits after three rolls), you would take 3 Hours to do that task.

The GM, at his/her discretion, may limit the amount of rolls made to a number (they suggest a maximum of rolls equal to the number of dice in the dice pool). If a glitch occurs, the GM may decide to inconvenience the PC in some way (represented by "removing" the hits by 1d6). On a critical glitch, the whole thing is a bust, and the character has to start over.

PCs can also attempt to do a "rush job" and cut the interval time in half. However, this makes it so that 1s AND 2s can trigger a glitch.

Glitch, just for reference, is having half or more of your dice come up as 1s. If you Glitch AND you don't score any hits, it's a Critical Glitch.
Ellery
Well, okay, we can make a stab at this now. ka=karma, bp=build points

Skills cost 44ka, 24bp to hit 6. 28ka more to hit 7. 2ka more to add a specialization.
Skill groups cost 110ka, 60bp to hit 6.
Attributes cost 60ka, 65bp to hit 6.

We have 13 skill groups (containing 44 skills) and 24 skills to raise, plus 10 attributes.

Let's suppose we blow all our build points and don't use them on any skills or attributes.

600ka maxxes all our attributes.
1430ka raises all skill groups to 6.
1056ka raises all other skills to 6.
136ka gives all skills a specialization.

So, we have 6 in everything at 3242ka.

1360ka is probably a good guess for the cost to enable raising skills to 7.
1904ka raises all skills to 7.

So it's an extra 3264ka to truly top out in absolutely everything.

Net cost: 6506 karma to be the best ever, throughout history, in everything. (Since we didn't use any build points, and those can be worth up to twice as much as karma points, we'd probably hit this limit sooner. Then again, we might pick up a few dozen knowledge skills, too.)

It's not a danger for most PCs, I wouldn't think, but it is surprisingly attainable compared to SR3.
hahnsoo
Well, you can only get Aptitude once, for a single skill. Thus, only a single skill would be at 7, for a cost of 28 Karma.
Ellery
I was afraid of that. That's why I split up the calculation the way I did.

So a character has basically exhausted his advancement potential after 3270 karma--less if they use build points to actually buy stats and/or skills.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Glitch, just for reference, is having half or more of your dice come up as 1s. All 1s is a Critical Glitch (which is just like the old Fumble rule).

I thought 50% or more 1's and no Hits was a Critial Glitch?
blakkie
BTW is the suggestion that Skill caps can be removed and have the system still work OK an offical in the book Option? Or is that just an observation from a playtester and/or Fanpro person?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 21 2005, 07:31 AM)
Glitch, just for reference, is having half or more of your dice come up as 1s. All 1s is a Critical Glitch (which is just like the old Fumble rule).

I thought 50% or more 1's and no Hits was a Critial Glitch?

Whoops. You are correct. I shall edit my post with your info.
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