I was thinking the same thing.

Because, like it says above, you can always pit Mr. Badass against someone who's even better than he is.

But its just not true. In order to make someone "better" they had to be even more super human then the PCs. Thats not gritty at all, its like a God game, where everyone walks around touched by the phallus of Zeus.

not to mention that this is completely, 100% contrary to the other aspect of grittiness that everyone is alwasy talking about: The idea that anyone could potentially kill you. In SR3 it took so much luck that it wasn't even worth worrying about. A street tough with a knife and a little determination was no threat at all to a pro.

Better question would be: "Is he the best at it?"

He took the improvised melee skill package

congratulations on completely missing the point. the problem isn't that there's a cap on skills--though i'm personally uncomfortable with the cap, and would prefer to see it removed. the problem is that you can reach the absolute upper limit of human achievement at chargen. you hit the limit right out of the box. woo, fun. character growth? street-level skills? apparently, a shadowrunner craves not these things.

check the latest bull thread:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9489

from the info in there you can have only one skill at 6, or two at 5 in chargen. the rest max at 4...

should i read that as sarcasm?

I can't say i'm entirely comfortable with it.

But given that to reach the pinnacle of a single specialization (you can fully specialize at creation?) if it is even possible you'd have to pour i'm guessing pretty much all the PC's BP into the skill + attribute + 'ware for the attribute + 'ware for the skill + Edge, a one trick pony doesn't seem so bad. He was the best of the best in his little field, a hot house flower that is going to wilt more than a bit when an unfortunate turn of events drops him in the shadowns.

Oh, and he isn't going to be the best in an awakened area or as a techno.

The Attribute/Skill boost to the ceiling is standard Edges & Flaws fair. The Qualities of being awakened or a techno are nothing like Feats at all (well not the standard D20 ones anyway). Not the least of which is their variable cost.

I haven't seen yet that you can take Qualities post-creation?

Thanks, missed that.

So i wonder what limits are on that, if you can awaken post-creation?

So what if you already have essense lost, do you have buy any points of Magic you would have lost before the awakened state takes effect? And does it have to be done immediately as part of purchasing the Quality?

Blakkie, I'm not sure about it. I'm at work and quoting from memory.

Do you even bother thinking before you post?

SR3, 20 dice, 12 combat pool, TN (4 + 8 blind fire + 6 gnat (low for a TN mod, but let's roll with it) - 2 smartlink) 16.

At skill 20, you nail that gnat just over 1 in 3 times with a single success. Then the gnat gets to dodge.

Oh, wait, decapitated. Now that's TN what, 19 (+3 Physical)? 22 (+3 Physical +3 Stun)?

TN 19: ~13% chance of hit

TN 22: ~7% chance of hit

And the gnat still has a 50% chance of avoiding that completely with the expenditure of one combat pool die.

~J

Despite the fact that mfb said exactly what I would have said, twice in fact, you may have missed my second point when I edited my post to explain that without a cap that is exactly what makes SR gritty is that without a cap you will always be able to pit them against another metahuman who is better than them as opposed to how you can now start out of the gate as the best in the world at something (ignoring the fact that I don't feel 7 really models the uniqueness of a legendary skill user, but that's another story).

The most dice you can ever throw at your PCs with a metahuman opponent, and a value which the PC may be throwing back because of hard caps is 24. The threat of someone who is even slightly more powerful, let alone outclassing the PC for when it really counts, is no longer an option unless you throw a Dragon at them, which has its own set of problems (Namely, why the hell are they fighting a dragon? How "street" is that to you, because to me it's not even close).

But my biggest concern is the same as mfb's: How does being able to be the best in the world at chargen made the game in any way more "street-level" or "gritty?"

So it's only one area where you're the best on Earth. You'll be one of the best at everything else by 200 karma with a well-designed PC at chargen, and that's what annoys the hell out of me.

There is always someone better than you.

It is a complaint about caps inasmuch as if you didn't have them, you wouldn't be able to do reach the pinnacle of human ability at character generation time.

And what I'm trying to say is that I prefer that to never being able to reach the pinacle of human ability at all, ever, because there is no pinacle.

I'm sure its just a matter of taste, just like most of the discussions on these boards.

Then you oppose caps, because with caps that is exactly what you can do, and in fact can do at chargen.

Even if it's one skill or skill group, the fact that you can theoretically start the game as a world renowned legend in a field by taking the exceptional attribute quality and skill equivalent defeats the whole purpose behind the game being set for "street-level". And so what if you have the personality of a toad? It never stopped GMs from sending Mr. J to meet with their player's runners before, and soon enough you can become Mr. Suave as well as being the best marksman on the planet (which by rep alone should be able to net you more than a few jobs, so that straw man gets blown away in a hurry).

It's just a really stupid idea, and it was wholly unnecessary.