Thanks, tisoz! The hard cap on skill seems particularly harsh when you consider all the possible bonuses you can get from magic and/or cyber/bioware, specialization and a bunch of other little things. I mean: a high natural skill that could actually compete with skills boosted by cyber/bio/magic/etc., that was magical! The possibility that... possibly... there was a tiny chance for a non-cybered, non-magical guy to compete with the monsters...
I mean: How world class are you at Unarmed Combat 7 if a significant percentage of physads will have 8+ due to improved abilities? Doesn't quite seem to me like: "Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history."
Hmmm... I recall reading somewhere that what determines who's the best is results. Skill rating is just a number. If you get your ass kicked all the time, then you're no melee master, for sure. I don't want to see martial artists "whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history" get their ass kicked on a regular basis by guys with a few levels of muscle toners.
Oh! Well, I guess I'll see when I get my hands on the book.
Full Version: Shadowrun 4: Magic
can someone please make a list of all adept powers in SR4 core book..
thx!
thx!
oh, and while i am at it, can someone of those fortunate to have book, please give us an example, how an attack with a stunbolt works.
with targets resistance and all....
thx
with targets resistance and all....
thx
Triggerz: I plan to house rule that cap on skills out of existence. On attributes is one thing (although I'm a fan of cyberware being able to surpass normal limitations), but skills I always felt should be infinate in growth.
I like lower skill levels in general as they will help keep down the number of dice rolled. (You roll six, and then another six, and then six again, and...) Rolling lots of dice can slow a game down considerably. But yeah, I think I might go with some kind of exponential cost for skills to keep skills above 6 extremely rare - but still possible. The hard cap can make too many guys with a few bonuses act way too cocky. If an adept knows there is a possibility that the old man over there might actually have a skill of, say, 10, then maybe he'll be a bit more carefull about who he chooses to bully.
i was wondering about the Combat Sense adept power. Does it add dice for certain tests, or does it actually add to reaction, thereby being subject to the hard cap on attributes?
i imagine it's also limited to a number of levels equal to your magic rating, but is it also limited by your reaction attribute?
i imagine it's also limited to a number of levels equal to your magic rating, but is it also limited by your reaction attribute?
A little from column A, a little from column B.
Combat Sense adds to Reaction only in Surprise test and when rolling Reaction to defend against attacks (i.e. Dodge test), melee or ranged or otherwise. The wording makes it seem like it's also subject to the attribute cap for Reaction (because it adds to Reaction), but you can buy levels up to your Magic Attribute for it (no other limitation). Remember, since there are usually penalties involved, extra dice above the Attribute cap are still useful.
Combat Sense adds to Reaction only in Surprise test and when rolling Reaction to defend against attacks (i.e. Dodge test), melee or ranged or otherwise. The wording makes it seem like it's also subject to the attribute cap for Reaction (because it adds to Reaction), but you can buy levels up to your Magic Attribute for it (no other limitation). Remember, since there are usually penalties involved, extra dice above the Attribute cap are still useful.
| QUOTE |
| THat is the way I interperate it at the moment. It provides a magical (device) sense so long as the spell is sustained. This sense provides constant feedback from the device sort of like a magical half-VCR or the adept attunment metamagic. |
hyzmarca
Attunment metamagic? Is that in the SR4 BBB? From SOTA 2063 or 2064? If it's from the SR4 BBB, can anyone tell me what it does and how it works?
Attunment metamagic? Is that in the SR4 BBB? From SOTA 2063 or 2064? If it's from the SR4 BBB, can anyone tell me what it does and how it works?
Attunement is from SOTA 2064. It allows you spend Karma to bond a mundane item to yourself, gaining a -1 TN bonus when using that particular item (but linking that item to you).
Cool!
| QUOTE (maeel) |
| oh, and while i am at it, can someone of those fortunate to have book, please give us an example, how an attack with a stunbolt works. with targets resistance and all.... thx |
This is from another thread:
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| Marvin the Mage has a Magic Attribute of 5 and a Spellcasting of 5. This means he rolls 10 dice on his spellcasting. He selects Sam the SecGuard as his target for the Stunbolt. He decides to go for a Force 5 Stunbolt, mostly because he's a wuss when it comes to drain and doesn't like overcasting. On his spellcasting roll, he gets 4 hits, just above the expected average. It's his lucky day, I guess. Sam the SecGuard has a Willpower of 3 and doesn't have any Counterspelling to protect him as spell defense, so he rolls 1 hit on his resistance test (about average that he can expect). Now we figure out the damage. The base DV is equal to the Force of the spell, which is 5. You add the net hits, which is 4 - 1 = 3 hits, thus doing 8 points of Stun damage. Since Sam the SecGuard has 10 Stun boxes (willpower of 3), he's 2 boxes away from being Knocked out. Finally, we figure out drain. The drain for a Stunbolt is Force/2 (round down) - 1, which in this case will be a DV of 1 measly point. Marvin the Mage rolls his Willpower + Logic (being a Hermetic), which in this case is 4 + 4, or 8. He easily gets the 1 hit he needs to reduce the drain down to nothing. Now, if he had not been such a wuss and went for the full tamale overcasting, he could have cast a Force 7 Stunbolt, and using the above example would probably knock the guard out (3 net hits) and still not take Drain (2 DV physical). Or if he feels that he absolutely needs to knock out the guard, he could go for a 9 Force Stunbolt (just below his max of 10), and guarantee a knockout, while taking 3 DV physical drain (probably reduced down to 0 or 1 boxes). |
| QUOTE |
| I plan to house rule that cap on skills out of existence. - GunnerJ |
We're torn. On the one hand we like the idea of diminishing returns; but on the other hand we don't want to say this far, and no further ... ever (without magic or 'ware). Attributes, yes to the hard cap (and we like it here): but not skills.
Our compromise will be a soft cap taking into account both the SR4 hard cap (6) and the SR3 idea of linked attributes, usable for individual skills only. Each skill level over the attribute level will cost double. Additionally, every skill level over six will have +1 added to the multiplier. Thus:
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (<= linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 2 Karma
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 4 Karma
Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, >6) - (New Rating) x (4 + [new level-6]) Karma
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
| On the one hand we like the idea of diminishing returns; |
Keep in mind, diminishing returns isn't the same as NO returns.
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) | ||
We're torn. On the one hand we like the idea of diminishing returns; but on the other hand we don't want to say this far, and no further ... ever (without magic or 'ware). Attributes, yes to the hard cap (and we like it here): but not skills. Our compromise will be a soft cap taking into account both the SR4 hard cap (6) and the SR3 idea of linked attributes, usable for individual skills only. Each skill level over the attribute level will cost double. Additionally, every skill level over six will have +1 added to the multiplier. Thus: Improving an Active Skill by 1 (<= linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 2 Karma Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, <= 6) - (New Rating) x 4 Karma Improving an Active Skill by 1 (> linked attribute, >6) - (New Rating) x (4 + [new level-6]) Karma |
I think we've diverged from topic, but in this instance.... We here also have tossed out the Skill Cap, but we are *NOT* going to sack the karma totals for skills greater than the rating of the attributes. We have not officially come up with the final number, but given that the cost for skills is already greater than it was in third edition, we'll either leave the costs as is or increased them to a x3 for ratings greater than attribute.
| QUOTE |
| Keep in mind, diminishing returns isn't the same as NO returns. - nezumi |
True. I misworded. End pseudo thread hijack
Does it take an action to use the adept power Attribute Boost? What kind of action? If it doesn't take an action, can it be used outside of the adepts action phase?
(Just got the pdf. Looks good!)
- Magnus
(Just got the pdf. Looks good!)
- Magnus
Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument? In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to. Are there any others?
| QUOTE (WhiteRabbit) |
| Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument? In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to. Are there any others? |
Poltergeist is pretty similar, but the drain for it is pretty hideous anyway (Even at Force 1, you are going to have 3 boxes of Drain).
Shapechange does have one effect that's linked to Force: Bonus Attribute points. That alone seems... unbalancing to cast even at low Force (considering it does the work of all 4 Physical Increase Attribute spells simultaneously).
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| Looking at Combat Sense p198, I find it very difficult to believe that it's an Active/Psychic spell. I think it should be Passive/Psychic, looking in the spell description of the effect and the sheer mechanics of the spell in question. Otherwise, you'll be rolling lots of Opposed tests, something that should only be reserved for things like Detect Individual or Mind Probe. |
Oh? Does this mean that Detection spells that obviously shouldn't be resisted (like Nightvision and Clairvoyance) are actually not resisted? Sweet.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 1 2005, 06:15 AM) | ||
Poltergeist is pretty similar, but the drain for it is pretty hideous anyway (Even at Force 1, you are going to have 3 boxes of Drain). Shapechange does have one effect that's linked to Force: Bonus Attribute points. That alone seems... unbalancing to cast even at low Force (considering it does the work of all 4 Physical Increase Attribute spells simultaneously). |
Wow. I haven´t read every spell discription yet so this one I hadn´t seen. How can it be so badly written? There´s no way I can let any player have that spell as it stands.
Hmm off the top of my head I figure a threshold equal to the difference in body. Same amount of hits as the threshold transforms player into a sub-par creature of -1 attributes, one net hit you get the stock attributes, and any hits above that is bonus.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Oh? Does this mean that Detection spells that obviously shouldn't be resisted (like Nightvision and Clairvoyance) are actually not resisted? Sweet. |
On that subject, is the Enhance Aim spell still floating around? If it doesn't have to be resisted, that would be very nice (although in all fairness we usually ignored that aspect anyway for ordinary "bit part" characters)
| QUOTE (Triggerz) |
| Thanks, tisoz! The hard cap on skill seems particularly harsh when you consider all the possible bonuses you can get from magic and/or cyber/bioware, specialization and a bunch of other little things. I mean: a high natural skill that could actually compete with skills boosted by cyber/bio/magic/etc., that was magical! The possibility that... possibly... there was a tiny chance for a non-cybered, non-magical guy to compete with the monsters... |
That's what Edge is for.
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 24 2005, 08:49 PM) | ||||
I hope so. Magician Adept initiation was always a problematic thing due to bad wording but to remove it entirely would be a bit draconian! |
I'm not sure if anyones mentioned this but it is in the offical errata:
| QUOTE |
| p. 189 Initiation Add “Mystic Adept” to “Only character with the Magician or Adept qualities may initiate." |
I assume because riposting has been removed from melee combat that the counter attack adept power has also not made a showing?
Correct, Counter Attack is not in the core book.
Here's a list from another thread:
Here's a list from another thread:
| QUOTE (Pandamoanyum & hahnsoo) |
| Adept Abilities: Astral Perception Attribute Boost Combat Sense Critical Strike Enhanced Perception Great Leap Improved Ability Improved Physical Attribute Improved Reflexes Improved Sense Killing Hands Kinesics Missile Parry Mystic Armor Natural Immunity Pain Resistance Rapid Healing Spell Resistance Voice Control |
I'm still not 100% clear on when a mage can and cannot cast through vision magnification.
What it seems like to me is that a mage must have direct LOS to cast any spell. If they can't see it, they can't cast on it. Problem is, I don't know what this could mean. The only way a mage can cast spells into area's they can't directly see is through fiber-optics. Does this mean, for example, a mage with binocs can't cast at something that's many meters away? And with cyberware, if they were to get cyber-eye replacements, could they still cast? They way I inturperate this is mages can't cast when the visual they are given is an electronic signal rather then a biological or physical. So, cybereyes would mean a mage can never cast a spell, as the eyes are electronic. And what about seeing around corners or such through a mirror?
What it seems like to me is that a mage must have direct LOS to cast any spell. If they can't see it, they can't cast on it. Problem is, I don't know what this could mean. The only way a mage can cast spells into area's they can't directly see is through fiber-optics. Does this mean, for example, a mage with binocs can't cast at something that's many meters away? And with cyberware, if they were to get cyber-eye replacements, could they still cast? They way I inturperate this is mages can't cast when the visual they are given is an electronic signal rather then a biological or physical. So, cybereyes would mean a mage can never cast a spell, as the eyes are electronic. And what about seeing around corners or such through a mirror?
| QUOTE (CrystalBlue) |
| I'm still not 100% clear on when a mage can and cannot cast through vision magnification. |
Technological visual aids that use an electronic feed or magical visual aids that substitute for your sense cannot be used. You can use mirrors or fiberoptics, as long as the image isn't processed, at a -3 dice pool penalty. p324
| QUOTE |
| And with cyberware, if they were to get cyber-eye replacements, could they still cast? They way I inturperate this is mages can't cast when the visual they are given is an electronic signal rather then a biological or physical. So, cybereyes would mean a mage can never cast a spell, as the eyes are electronic. |
The standard explanation for it is the fact that since you've paid essence for the cybereye, it counts as your "natural" sense and thus can be used for the purposes of spellcasting. p173
| QUOTE (WhiteRabbit) |
| Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument? In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to. Are there any others? |
IIRC, The force of the spell limits the amount of hits you can score. If you cast a spell at Force 1 and get 5 hits, you only "use" 1 hit.
| QUOTE ("SR GBB 171") |
A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. |
SYL
Thanks, Apple.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
|
Concrete examples:
Infrared/thermographic => not possible, except in cybereyes
low light => not possible, except in cybereyes
visual magnification (optical) => possible, if bought in the optical, not in the electronic version
visual enhancement => possible (imho) because it is not a new "sense" like IR, just a better normal sense.
ultrasound => not possible, except in cybereyes (why is that thing headware anyway?)
SYL
| QUOTE (apple) | ||||
Concrete examples: Infrared/thermographic => not possible, except in cybereyes low light => not possible, except in cybereyes |
Or if your metatype has these as natural benefits, of course!
| QUOTE |
visual magnification (optical) => possible, if bought in the optical, not in the electronic version |
Or presumably either if it is cyberware, according to the usual logic.
| QUOTE |
visual enhancement => possible (imho) because it is not a new "sense" like IR, just a better normal sense. ultrasound => not possible, except in cybereyes (why is that thing headware anyway?) SYL |
| QUOTE (NeoJudas) | ||||
Ah yeah, I keep forgetting that about the new rules. This is one that we are "House Ruling" out of existance, or at least altering pretty quickly for ourselves. It is of interest that the Core Book does not mention the ability to buy additional Power Points with just Karma as in the 3rd Ed rules. |
I disagree.
You get a Power Points when you buy an extra point of Magic, right?
So there's your "Power Points for Karma" trade-in right there.
Of course, if you choose to make the (hefty) initial investment to start with Magic 6, then your opportunities for future growth are going to be very expensive. That's the price of starting with a lot of power.
Magic is a very powerful attribute in SR4, as well as being the only attribute with a soft cap. I for one see no reason to hand out points of it at discount rates.
| QUOTE (Magnus Jakobsson) | ||
The new armor rules will probably make stun damage more widespread. Is it still impossible to heal stun damage with magic?
Does this mean that after earning his first 6 power points (the ones he started with in SR3), the adept must pay 34, 40, 46 etc. karma for more powers? Sorry for nitpicking, but I just wanted to be clear on this. - Magnus |
This is true.
On the other hand, being an Adept now costs a massive 5 BP out of 400 IIRC, as opposed to (approximately) 25 out of 125.
Being an adept is cheap. Being an adept who has fully exploited the magic he/she was born with, and has no potential for further learning outside initiation, is now expensive. Being more powerful that *that* is *really* expensive.
| QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 22 2005, 03:04 PM) | ||
Increase Reflexes: The effects are now identical to Wired Reflexes and the Adept version of Wired, so + to both Initative and Passes. There is only one version of the spell now, and it appears you choose which "bonus" you want to cast at. Each increase has a higher Threshold you have to meet, and +3 is teh highest it can go. Bull |
Hmm. My interpretation was that the caster casts the spell, and then depending on the threshold actually achieved, generates a particular level of bonus. This could use some clarification.
For those who care:
Threshold 2 = Wired Reflexes 1
Threshold 3 = Wired Reflexes 2
Threshold 4 = Wired Reflexes 3
The rule that says you can't get more hits than Force means that the spell must be cast at >= Force 2 for any effect at all and at least Force 4 for full effect.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 09:46 PM) |
| Each sustained spell gives you -2 Dice for all of your actions. |
The Focused Concentration Quality no longer halves this penalty.
Instead, it comes in levels, and adds one die to your Drain Resistance tests per level.
There doesn't seem to be a Quality that mitigates sustained spell (or bound spirit) penalties, so Sustaining Foci and bound spirits in moderation are the way to go for your spell sustaining needs.
Of course, with the new core mechanic, sustaining several spells at once now gives you a large but not impossible modifier. Shadowrun's modifiers are now much more linear; -6 is three times as bad as -2, unlike the the difference between +2 TN and +6 TN.
I've just been catching up on this thread, been offline for a good while, but I remember some post about Aspected Magicians no longer existing, but you could make Adepts with spellcasting abilities or someting (I guess like Magician's Way Adepts in SR3). What about conjurors? I have a hermetic conjuror I'd really like to convert and keep playing. Am I screwed and going to have to just make a magician and then simply not buy any spellcasting skills (which seems like such a waste). Or... well, what?
mystical adpets are the aspected ones.
But for each point in magicial power counts as thier magic rating for conjuring and sorcery.
Still got ot buy astral percetption at 1 power point to percieve, and no projection.
But for each point in magicial power counts as thier magic rating for conjuring and sorcery.
Still got ot buy astral percetption at 1 power point to percieve, and no projection.
| QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern) |
| There doesn't seem to be a Quality that mitigates sustained spell (or bound spirit) penalties, so Sustaining Foci and bound spirits in moderation are the way to go for your spell sustaining needs. |
While there isn't a Quality that accomplishes this, the drug Psyche halves the sustaining penalty (among other things).
Speaking of which, are there any prices listed for drugs like Psyche (ie. non-combat drugs)?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Speaking of which, are there any prices listed for drugs like Psyche (ie. non-combat drugs)? |
None that I've seen... started a thread on it and hopefully we can get some answers on that
| QUOTE |
| I've just been catching up on this thread, been offline for a good while, but I remember some post about Aspected Magicians no longer existing, but you could make Adepts with spellcasting abilities or someting (I guess like Magician's Way Adepts in SR3). What about conjurors? I have a hermetic conjuror I'd really like to convert and keep playing. Am I screwed and going to have to just make a magician and then simply not buy any spellcasting skills (which seems like such a waste). Or... well, what? |
Buying the magician quality doesn't grant you any spells anyways as you still are required to purchase those (at 3BP per spell, up to a max of (Spellcasting x 2) IIRC). If you want to be a caster and just summon spells, then just buy the magician quality and you are set.
| QUOTE |
| mystical adpets are the aspected ones. |
Not entirely true.
| QUOTE |
| But for each point in magicial power counts as thier magic rating for conjuring and sorcery. |
There is no adept power called Magical Power anymore. When you purchase the quality, Mystical Adept, you have to specify how you are going to split your Magic rating between Adept and Magician. If you had 6 Magic and decided to split it up for 4 for Mage and 2 for Adept then you would start with 2 points of Adept powers and could cast spells up to Force 4 (or up to Force 8 if you dont mind phyiscal drain). Later, if you spend karma to raise your magic rating you need to specify if it will go towards being a magician or an adept. For other purposes and test, your magic rating still counts as 6.
| QUOTE |
| Still got ot buy astral percetption at 1 power point to percieve, and no projection. |
Correct. Mystic Adepts can percieve but they need to buy the adept power in order to do it.
If you only want to play a caster, Incompetence in all skills of the Conjuring Groups seems a good way to to so.
Hmm. Interesting. Thanks for the info.
Also, one of the other threads around here (the Spirit on, I think) seemed to imply that all summoners, hermetic and shamanic and whoever else, can summon spirits like shamans did in SR3 and like hermetics did - one involves just summoning and the other involves binding, too, at spirit's F*2?
Finally, somebody said something about beast spirits or something? What kinds of spirits exist in SR3? I assume there are still good ol' elementals around - are shamanic spirits changed a lot? And do the traiditions change at all - as in shamans still summon their whole list and hermetics still summon elementals?
Thanks in advance.
Also, one of the other threads around here (the Spirit on, I think) seemed to imply that all summoners, hermetic and shamanic and whoever else, can summon spirits like shamans did in SR3 and like hermetics did - one involves just summoning and the other involves binding, too, at spirit's F*2?
Finally, somebody said something about beast spirits or something? What kinds of spirits exist in SR3? I assume there are still good ol' elementals around - are shamanic spirits changed a lot? And do the traiditions change at all - as in shamans still summon their whole list and hermetics still summon elementals?
Thanks in advance.
Rotbart van Dainig
| QUOTE |
| If you only want to play a caster, Incompetence in all skills of the Conjuring Groups seems a good way to to so. |
Other way around, actually. I have a hermetic conjuror I want to convert. But point taken, I could just take incompetence in all the spellcasting skills. Not a bad idea, thanks.
Yeah, they all pretty much summon the same spirits now except for their "5th element". IIRC, hermetics summon spirits of man while shamans summon spirits of beasts.
FYI, Shamans don't automatically get totemic bonuses anymore. There is a quality called mentor spirit that gives those bonuses now and its not exclusive to shamans (hermetics can take the quality as well).
FYI, Shamans don't automatically get totemic bonuses anymore. There is a quality called mentor spirit that gives those bonuses now and its not exclusive to shamans (hermetics can take the quality as well).
| QUOTE (Prospero) | ||
Rotbart van Dainig
Other way around, actually. I have a hermetic conjuror I want to convert. But point taken, I could just take incompetence in all the spellcasting skills. Not a bad idea, thanks. |
Taking Incompetance for any Conjuring skill would be a pointless exercise in Munchkinism. You'd basically be getting 15BP for not being able to default 3 skills that you wouldn't be able to default with anyway.
If I'm not totally mistaken, Incompetence also removed the ability to ever learn the skill?
Good question. I just know you no longer need ranks in the skill. So incompetance, like said above, is a great munchkin tool.
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 82 Incompetent) |
| Characters may not possess that skill, nor may they default on it. |
So, actually, it is not munchkin at all, if you want to simulate aspected magicians.
In fact, one can create now pure AntiMages.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| If I'm not totally mistaken, Incompetence also removed the ability to ever learn the skill? |
True, but if your character concept doesn't use conjuring in the first place, is this really a limitation worthy of extra BPs? The inability to default is the key to this flaw/quality; the inability to get rid of the flaw by buying the skill is a secondary effect.
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