I always preferred a dragon punch myself.

It's a schtick and if magic does manifest in forms familiar to the user, I expect a lot of superheroes and video game adepts would start cropping up, considering our fascination with both mediums.

Frag, there should be at least one Sailor Moon mage running around somewhere and a spikey-haired kid muttering to the Pharoh as he throws down card-shaped Foci to invoke his spells.

I draw the line at spells taking the form of small, cute animals that then cast the spells, however.

-Siege

i havent tried anything around DBZ, i dont like the anime, i have however made a Yu Yu Hakusho based character for SR3 that didnt turn out to bad...was a phys mage with a force 6 manabolt spell but only one point in magic, so he could only currently cast it at force one or at most force two without getting a power focus, i only played him in one game but he worked out alright

what about that character concept seige

Spellcasters with Bear as a mentor get +2 to resist physical damage; troll adepts rejoice in your further indestructibility.

But what happens to spellslingers who are overcasting? Do they get +2 dice to resist the physical damage done by the drain associated with casting a spell at a higher Force than their Magic?

Or shall I (happily) assume that there is enough distinction between physical drain and physical damage to where the +2 does not apply for overcasting?

If not, then I forsee many Bear magicians overcasting quite a bit and then turning around to heal (with their +2 bonus on Health spells) the physical damage that they so easily resisted. Slap on Quick Healer while you're at it.

Frank, I want you to know, you officially scare me.

*cries*

Both valid points.

Any other magic-types people want converted? It isn't very hard.

-Frank

I quote the moral from many sci-fi tragedies:

"Just because you can do a thing, does not mean you should do a thing."

Have you considered doing Ally spirits Frank?

I had to do a quick version of ally spirits to convert an SR3 character in my campaign. I basically decided that ally spirits are ordinary spirits that are bound permanently. They can't cast spells anymore, and their manifest forms have to fit with the type of spirit.

The character I was converting had an ally spirit that manifest as a cat (2 forms: housecat and panther), and she had never really developed the sorcery powers -- the spirit only knew the 1 spell it started with. So I converted it as a permanently bound beast spirit of the same force.

Of course, this is a lot different than the old version of ally spirits, and it won't let you make dikoted AVS ally spirits
But it's very streamlined and avoids introducing a whole new type of spirit with different powers.

I didn't do creation rules since I was just converting a character, and I haven't really thought about how ally spirit improvement will work yet.

I seriously don't see how you can even make the argument that Bear gives you bonuses to resist overcasting drain. The procedure for drain is that you make a drain resistance check against the Drain Value, and the Drain Value is subsequently applied as damage. At no time do you ever make a damage resistance test, so bonuses to resisting damage are useless. The Bear Totem no more assists in drain reduction than bone density augmentation does.

-Frank

It's not damage until the Drain Resistance test is already done. The text pretty clearly states that you do the Drain Resistance test to lower the drain value, and whatever is not resisted is applied directly as either Stun or Physical damage. A Drain Resistance test is not a damage resistance test, because the Drain doesn't become actual damage until after the Resistance test.

It's a subtle distinction, yes, but it's pretty clearly stated in the rule excerpt you quoted.

Oh, and the reason that Bone Density is worded differently is because it applies against Stun damage resistance tests as well.

Feshy, I thank you for typing out the exact adventure in rule-seeking that I went on. I also appreciate that you ended up in the same place that I did.

I could thematically justify the ability to overcast with less risk by saying Bear is just that tough or otherwise heedless of his personal safety. He's a berserker, after all. From a game-balance standpoint, it'd make a Bear healer really darn good in a clutch healing situation.

As I (think I) mentioned, I'm fine with summarizing the situation to my players with "Drain Resistance is not Damage Resistance." Bear is fine with keeping you alive when you've been shot, but if you're melting your own brain that's your problem.

I just wanted to make sure that line of reasoning wouldn't bite me in the ass later.

now, from a game balance point of view, I honestly don't have a problem with Bear giving you extra drain resistance dice for the purposes of Overcasting. It's 2 dice, which only has a 5/9 chance of reducing the drain you actually suffer in any way.

Since overcasting a spell doesn't normally produce less drain than not overcasting it does, any follower of Bear who might be tempted to overcast for the extra drain resistance wouldn't need those extra two dice to cast the spell normally without suffering drain. All in all, it seems a tempest in a teapot. If you want to allow Bear Mentors to give bonus dice to resist drain, go for it. In fact, the rules for berserking are so bad (and always have been), that I seriously have not seen any player character actually have a Bear Totem since first edition. Bear needs all the help it can get.

I just don't think that the RAW actually supports them having that ability. (but I'll probably let them have it in any game I run)

-Frank

Heal Spell Clarifications and Exploits

Re: Clairification 1: The Force of the Heal spell is whatever you want it to be. In this case all it alters is the maximum number of hits and whether Drain is physical or stun. Note that it doesn't have anything to do with how long the spell must be sustained; as your quote indicates that's the domain of the Drain Value (DV), not the Forse (though those are usually connected).

C-2: I dunno; isn't there a minimum Drain Value? I don't think the designers allow Drain to go to 0; it probably bottoms out at 1, which means 1 CT to sustain before becoming permenant.

E-1: Yes, and you'd be (mostly) out of the combat for 3 Combat Turns to pull this off as well. One CT to cast; 2 more to sustain. Well, the second 2 CTs you can put the spell into a focus, or a bound spirit, or just take -2 dice to all actions, but it's still a consideration. What's the problem with that?

E-2: Yeah, well at touch range this is a bit impractical. It's especially bad as most of your team won't want to cluster too close unless they want to get grenaded. If you want I suppose you can design an LOS Heal spell with a higher DV, but then you're not getting as much benefit from it, and you have to spend Karma on that spell as well.

So, yeah. Of course mages with 5+ initiate grades are going to be powerful; given how much you have to pay in karma for that the mundanes will have all attributes at 6 and most skills doing all right.

Thank you for that! Now if I clarify myself we will be on the same page.

C-2 was about using hits from the Sorcery + Magic test to lower the number of turns needed to sustain it. I was just wondering if skilled sorcerers could make it effectively an instant spell with permanent effects.

E-1: The overcast spell was something like a Stunball at level 12. 12 / 2 + 1 = 7, with a drain resistance roll of 3 successes. Physical drain of 4 points. Round 1 of being out of combat is casting Heal on yourself. With your info, I decide to cast it at force 12 as well. With 12 dice I hope I can get 4 successes. If not, I am still a tad wounded. If I get more, I shorten the amount of time I need to sustain the spell. That drain is 4 - 2 = 2 (the minimum drain is 2, by the way). I think I can get two successes on drain resistance. I do have -2 two dice for four turns, though unless I was lucky.

It's not as bad as I thought. The example shows how hard it is to dramtically heal a character.

E-2: You are totally right about this. I was thinking I could make touch-only attacks on my teammates, but that does leave us vulnerable.

Here are two more things for the magic thread:

Exploit 3: You (the sorcerer) and your team blitz the enemy army. (This is because my gamemaster would always have the enemy army hiding behind trash cans, bushes or in shadows. Otherwise I would always knock them out as my first action.) By bum-rushing them you can get a look at them, because their cover is blown. Then you cast the mother of all stunballs while everyone is engaged in melee combat, right on top of their team your team and yourself. You counterspell for the good guys. If they have a counterspeller this will not work.

Remember, a level 3 combat counterspelling focus can be bound at character creation for only 6 BP!! And with the skill, and maybe even shielding, that could be 9 or more additional dice each character for everybody you want (and can see) to resist spells!

Exploit 4: Spend NO points at character creation on Physical or Mental attributes. Get all the raise attribute and initiative spells. Cast them after you have initiated to level 1 (choose quickening). Have 7 Karma available. Conjure and bind a spirit. Then cast the spell, rolling edge, and using the Aid Sorcery task. Many dice, rerolling sixes. With a little luck, you have have 9 or more hits (edge dice unrestricted by force of spell, page 172), raising your 1 stat to 9. Repeat whenever you get 7 Karma until you have maximum in everything. You did this spendind something like 100 Karma, and zero BP. Here is the kicker, the number of dice your spell gets to resist dispelling attempts is Force + Karma spent + Magic. Their net successes counteract your successes. Then they roll drain. This one is really sick. I think it should be made less useful by making people spend at least 1/4 BP on physical and mental attributes.

The idea is to get skills that add dice to most of the things you do. I haven't gone over a list of all the attribute-only rolls, so it may be infeasible.

Dodge for ranged attacks is Reaction + Dodge. Defending melee attacks is Raction + Weapon Skill (if armed) or Reaction + Unarmed Combat or Reaction + Dodge. Full dodge adds Dodge again to that number. Full Parry adds their appropriate combat skill. Gymnastics Dodge adds gymnastics rating.

Drain would be a serious bitch starting off. Maybe the character should have either Logic or Intuition to one point less than max (and get some free knowledge skill points at the same time.)

It is the attribute-only tests that would suffer the most initially. Like rolling Body to resist damage.

Thank you for bringing up those points, and especially the one about the spells ending unexpectedly. They get additional dice equal to the Karma spent to quicken them. The Karma limit is double the Force of the spell. So a force 7 spell would get from 14-21 resistance dice depending on how much Karma was spent (7-14). For dispelling tests add you Magic rating to that pile of dice. That's for each spell.

The real problem with quickened spells isn't wards or beings who might try to dispell it. No, the real problem can be summed up in three little words. Routine traffic stop.

"Please present your license and registration.... *Hand goes to gun* " and your spell permits."

All it takes is one astrally active beatmage you, depending on your response you may be in prision, you may be dead, or you have John Walsh's chained ghost narrating a dramatization of your escapades on international trideo that Saturday after Cops Aztlan.

Rating 4 Fake Magic License - 400

Don't leave home without it.

Absolutly brilliant.

Regarding the Heal spell: It confounded me, too, until I stopped trying to treat it as a normal spell.

Normal spells get their drain code calculated off of Force, divided by 2, then a positive or negative modifier is added. Minimum 1.

Heal doesn't do that. Heal's drain code is radically different. You take the total (previously untreated, but that's a different thread) DV of the current set of injuries you're trying to heal, subtract 2 from that, and that's your drain code.

So if my buddy Meatshield has 6P damage in the particular set of wounds I'm trying to heal, then my drain code is 4S. Here's the trick: It doesn't matter at what Force I'm casting the Heal. Surprisingly, the drain code doesn't care.

So, that's right... if Meatshield is a troll who's racked up 16P damage and is looking at me to heal him, then I can theoretically cast a Force 1 Heal and be looking at a 14S drain code coming at me. Or if he's got just 3P damage and I have a 6 Magic then I could overcast the thing at 12, taking only a 1P drain code.

Now, that begs the question of "What the hell does the Force do for me, then?" Well, remember that the Force of the spell caps the number of possible hits you can achieve with it. If you cast a Heal at Force 1, then the highest number of boxes you'll be healing is exactly 1. If you're a level 4 initiate who can cast it at 20, then you can toss out up to 20 boxes of healing in one go. Or, of course, you can spend some of those hits on decreasing the sustain time.

Basically what this means is that you should look at your Magic + Spellcasting pool, divide it by 3, and realize that's about how many boxes of damage you'll be healing on average. Then cast all of your Heals at that level.... or maybe a little higher, if you're feeling lucky (or Edgy).

For instance, if you have Magic 5 and Spellcasting 4, then odds are you'll be making about 3 hits per roll. Ergo, you're pretty safe to cast all of your Heals at Force 3 from a statistical average point of view.

This also means that whenever you throw a Heal, you need to consider the efficiency of what you're doing. If healing your buddy about 3 boxes is going to probably cost you a dozen boxes of physical yourself... it might be better just to use First Aid on the poor bastard.

I agree, Blakkie, and in fact I touched upon the points you mention. I might have been unclear in my wording.

For instance, when I said it didn't matter at what Force you cast the Heal I meant that only in regards to the numeric part of the drain code. I went on to offer examples as to how the Force does in fact affect possible outcomes.

All right, Frank. I'd like to see A: a tradition in which the practicioner is convinced they are a comic book superhero. Both generic would be good, as well as specifically those who beleive they are X-men Style Mutants. Create Mentor spirits as required.

Also, B: I'd like to see traditions that use Will + a physical stat to reduce drain, if that's not disallowed by the rules. (If it is, I missed it.)

I have my own ideas, but I like seeing you at work.

A: Perhaps a dedicated "Alternate Traditions" thread would be in order?

B: It is expressly disallowed in the RAW, yup.

It seems the optimal force levels for Heal are either your Magic attribute or Magic x 2, if you have many dice and you need to risk physical drain. Another consideration might be if you for some reason needed people not to notice you were casting.

Here is the latest issue of the newsletter:

Exploit 5: The Heal Train

This requires two spellcasters. The first one should have the larger dice pool to cast Heal, the second should have the larger dice pool to resist drain.

Sammie got shot up badly on the way into a building. Your group is pretty confident that reinforcements will have arrived when it's time to leave, so will need him on the way out. He has, say, 10 boxes of damage.

Caster #1 casts the spell at twice his Magic. He has a very big dice pool, maybe a specialization, maybe a mentor bonus, maybe a health spell focus, maybe a bound spirit-- and he definitely rolls Edge on this one. He has, say 20 dice after all is said and done, rerolling sixes. With a little luck he gets 7 hits and Sammie feels way better in no time. On the drain roll, the base drain is 10 - 2 = 8. He only manages to get 2 hits, which reduces that to 6 boxes of physical damage. Ouch!

Caster #2 casts the spell on Caster #1 at her Magic, which is 5. Her dice pool isn't that great-- 9 dice. She gets only 3 successes. Her Willpower and Logic are pretty good, however, and she totally eliminates the 4 boxes of base drain.

So now Sammie only has 3 boxes of Physical, Caster #1 now has 3 Physical, and Caster #2 is unscathed. Caster #1 needs a little more Willpower and Logic. Caster #2 needs to study Sorcery some more. In time they will be able to pull this stunt with no damage to either of them.

Exploit #6: The Largest Army Ever Assembled

Jessica Alba is an Elven Conjurer with Exceptional Charisma 9(13). She has vowed to take down a crime family that routinely does things that should not be mentioned in this forum. She does her due dilligence and learns of a mandatory meeting of the family leadership. There will obviously be massive security precautions.

She goes to work conjuring and binding 13 of the strongest spirits she can muster. This costs a fortune, of course, which is a major downside to this plan.

On the day of reckoning she casts one more unbound spirit and as many watcher spirits as her Logic allows. The bound spirits go to smash, burn, engulf, bind and drown everyone they see while the some of the watchers heckle and distract the opponents. The spirits would team up to defeat any wards or mana barriers. Some of the watchers are instructed to inform her (telepathically) if anything astral starts coming her way. The unbound spirit stays behind to aid in Jessica's defense. At the end of it all, Jessica instructs her lone guardian air elemental to manifest and fly to the meeting carrying a massive bomb. With whirlwind speed the explosive is dropped and whatever is left blows sky-high. She needs to get on her Dark Angel motorcycle and hightail it to the meeting herself so that the spirit can make the bomb drop. Maybe she can start launching all kinds of spells at this point, too. Almost all of those spirits would be gone by that time, either defeated in combat or successful and free of any more services owed. She won't have those insufferable -2 dice pool modifiers when the battle is almost over. If the criminals send a bunch of spirits after her she might be toast, so maybe she will keep a couple more by her side for good measure. She could cast an astral Mana Barrier around herself before she calls upon the bound spirits.

The moral of the story is that one single magician can pull off more than some people think.

Fortune,

Thanks for that. I had it backwards. I thought the magic had to come before the first aid.

In reading more about it, I am amazed that First Aid can remove blocks of stun damage as well as physical. I wonder if that needs to be declared before the the test is made or if you can decide to spend net successes as you choose.

It'd be simplest to say that you're either healing Stun or you're healing Physical with any given First Aid test.

I don't know if that's how it's supposed to be or if that's even a good idea, but it'd definitely be simpler.