Full Version: Shadowrun 4: Magic
| QUOTE (ogbendog) |
| Mentor sprit bonus dice. It does say specifically; can they be used for drain, for casting, for either? |
Most likely they work like Summoning Foci, where the dice can be used for the magic test or they can be applied to Drain.
-Frank
It says "A magician gains bonus dice when acting or using Sorcery or Conjuring skills in accordance to the mentor’s ideals."
My guess is the "acting" part covers the skill-based and other bonuses. The rest sounds like you get the bonuses only when using the Sorcery or Conjuring skills themselves, not when soaking drain.
My guess is the "acting" part covers the skill-based and other bonuses. The rest sounds like you get the bonuses only when using the Sorcery or Conjuring skills themselves, not when soaking drain.
Just because I can't find a post by me on it with search, but it's something I'm curious about...
The Innate spell power of critters (in particular - spirits of man) says it lets the spirit use the spell. My curiosity wonders if they're intended to suffer drain (as normal for other magicians) when doing so, or if they have some sort of strange freebie drain on them?
At this point, it seems more like the former - I don't know why it didn't seem more sensible then.
heh. maybe because it never makes mention of them suffering drain or not (or for that matter, what happens if they try sustaining spells).
The Innate spell power of critters (in particular - spirits of man) says it lets the spirit use the spell. My curiosity wonders if they're intended to suffer drain (as normal for other magicians) when doing so, or if they have some sort of strange freebie drain on them?
At this point, it seems more like the former - I don't know why it didn't seem more sensible then.
heh. maybe because it never makes mention of them suffering drain or not (or for that matter, what happens if they try sustaining spells).
They use spellcasting as per normal rules.
IIRC, a Magic 4 magician can summon a Force 8 spirit (twice the summoner's Magic) and teach it Ball Lightning, then have it cast it at Force 16 (twice the spirit's Magic).
Sure, the spirit will probably blow itself up, but hey: Force 16 Ball Lightning. You might even get a free Negative Quality out of it.
IIRC, a Magic 4 magician can summon a Force 8 spirit (twice the summoner's Magic) and teach it Ball Lightning, then have it cast it at Force 16 (twice the spirit's Magic).
Sure, the spirit will probably blow itself up, but hey: Force 16 Ball Lightning. You might even get a free Negative Quality out of it.
Scary part is, short of pissing the spirit off, that has a potential of really working. O_o
If you did the force 16, the drain ends up as 13 - roughly matching the CM of the spirit (8+half body rounded up, since spirits of man are the only ones that can cast the spells). That's assuming the spirit doesn't make any rolls on a drain test. A single hit would insure it stayed alive (if barely) but it would. average will keep it with a few points to spare without dying.
That's using 16 dice for the drain. With all the mental stats matching at 8, it's guaranteed unless you use the drain attribute spell on the spirit.
Easier way to guarantee life - don't do full power, and that spirit will live through the casting. You should probably send him/her/it away afterwards though, if you don't want to get too much bad stigma for using it like a spell battery.
Of course, in reflection, summoning that spirit can kill the caster if they can't roll a good drain check against the summoning drain - up to 16 points. That's deadly, unlikely, but deadly.
If you did the force 16, the drain ends up as 13 - roughly matching the CM of the spirit (8+half body rounded up, since spirits of man are the only ones that can cast the spells). That's assuming the spirit doesn't make any rolls on a drain test. A single hit would insure it stayed alive (if barely) but it would. average will keep it with a few points to spare without dying.
That's using 16 dice for the drain. With all the mental stats matching at 8, it's guaranteed unless you use the drain attribute spell on the spirit.
Easier way to guarantee life - don't do full power, and that spirit will live through the casting. You should probably send him/her/it away afterwards though, if you don't want to get too much bad stigma for using it like a spell battery.
Of course, in reflection, summoning that spirit can kill the caster if they can't roll a good drain check against the summoning drain - up to 16 points. That's deadly, unlikely, but deadly.
Don't forget, that the force 8 spirit has an Edge of 8, which it can use against the drain.
okay, deadlier still - what if it uses the edge while you're summoning too?
I guess one better find a lot of favors a spirit likes before committing to giant projects. I'd hate to imagine rolling and watching myself having to resist 48 drain or something....
I guess one better find a lot of favors a spirit likes before committing to giant projects. I'd hate to imagine rolling and watching myself having to resist 48 drain or something....
i read it somewhere but can't find it. where can i get a convertion for my mits spells to SR4
I know there's a conversion from 3 to 4 for characters, dunno about spells though...
Anyways, I got a couple questions involving ritual sorcery
1) Can the main caster double as spotter if he has the options? I looked around for an answer, but didn't find anything solid in the book (or else I missed it).
2) In the case of sustaining a ritual casted spell that normally has line of sight - is this simply excluded for the time, or can you use the original spotter to hold it in place by keeping LOS, etc, etc...
ack, one more question for skills and their limits
Is there actually a spell or method of increasing a skill past 6??? Somewhere implied a limit of 9, if augmented. But I don't know any spell that actually 'gives' points in that fashion.
Anyways, I got a couple questions involving ritual sorcery
1) Can the main caster double as spotter if he has the options? I looked around for an answer, but didn't find anything solid in the book (or else I missed it).
2) In the case of sustaining a ritual casted spell that normally has line of sight - is this simply excluded for the time, or can you use the original spotter to hold it in place by keeping LOS, etc, etc...
ack, one more question for skills and their limits
Is there actually a spell or method of increasing a skill past 6??? Somewhere implied a limit of 9, if augmented. But I don't know any spell that actually 'gives' points in that fashion.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| I know there's a conversion from 3 to 4 for characters, dunno about spells though... Anyways, I got a couple questions involving ritual sorcery 1) Can the main caster double as spotter if he has the options? I looked around for an answer, but didn't find anything solid in the book (or else I missed it). 2) In the case of sustaining a ritual casted spell that normally has line of sight - is this simply excluded for the time, or can you use the original spotter to hold it in place by keeping LOS, etc, etc... ack, one more question for skills and their limits Is there actually a spell or method of increasing a skill past 6??? Somewhere implied a limit of 9, if augmented. But I don't know any spell that actually 'gives' points in that fashion. |
1) No, I don't think so. The spotter does not add dice to the roll, the main caster is the one who's skill the roll is based on. So I'd have to say this is not possible.
In my games, though, I have definitely brought back material links -- they are just too useful as plot items to do away with. This would remove the need for a spotter.
2) There is only one thing that I know of that allows you to raise your spellcasting skill above 6 -- aptitude (spellcasting) which lets you get to 7. This would seem to put it behind other skills which, in general, have ways of getting to an augmented 9. But keep in mind that while sorcery is limited, magic is not, and all spellcasting tests are tied to magic. So at a certain point, you can't get any more skilled, only more powerful.
On another forum someone pointed out an interesting rule mechanic.
Take a look at page 173, "Spellcasting->Step 3: Choose the Target(s)-> Area Spells
Take a look at page 173, "Spellcasting->Step 3: Choose the Target(s)-> Area Spells
| QUOTE |
| Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space; in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected. All visible targets within the area are affected; area spells can affect more than one target at a time. |
-emphasis mine
This effectively states, that only visible targets can be targeted by any area effect spell. As it stands, even indirect combat area spells (like a fireball) can't hit a target, not seen by the caster.
Page 195, "Spell Characteristics -> Range", explicitly references to that ruleset, and the description of indirect combat spells (p.196) doesn't explicitly overrides it.
So has anyone found an explicit rule, that clearly disables this restriction [only visible targets] for indirect combat spells?
And to make it clear: I don't search for houserules or interpretations of the fact, that a indirect combat spell is treated as a ranged attack. I'm just looking for a quote to something i might have overlooked.
| QUOTE |
| And to make it clear: I don't search for houserules or interpretations of the fact, that a indirect combat spell is treated as a ranged attack. |
That's too bad, because that's all there is. Page 195 says that a LOS spell requires you to see the target. Page 196 says that an indirect spell is treated like a ranged attack. Page 140 says that a ranged attack can hit an opponent you cannot see.
Shadowrun does not have a hierarchy of rules, so when it comes to a direct contradiction like that, it is up to your gamemaster to interpret. Until Street Magic comes out, the interpretation that the spell targetting rules override the ranged attack rules and the interpretation where the ranged attack rules supercede the spell targetting rules are equally valid.
-Frank
that was always an obvious part - as far as fireballs go.
a direct spell doesn't have a medium; you cast it, they feel it.
an indirect spell uses a medium - this medium (as far as spells in SR) is always physical. Since it's a physical medium, it can interact with physical things. Given that, it can hit things you can't see through the convenience of the medium
Yes, fire, lightning, acid, it's all a viable medium.if you were to send real burning flames around a corner, wouldn't you expect something to burn if it can and it was hit?
That is the reasoning for saying 'treat an indirect spell as a ranged attack'. It's not a see and hit spell, it's a projectile spell.
but that wasn't the question I asked - in a RITUAL sorcery situation, if you set a sustainable spell through the spotter, how are the rules of sustaining held? by the description of line of sight, there's nothing saying you have to keep LOS to sustain the spell in place (but it doesn't say you can either).
But can it be done? could you place a physical barrier in a spot the spotter finds and hold it, could you levitate an item, turn to stone someone and hold it, etc, etc.
Come to think of it, some of those are touch - can you even do those in ritual sorcery? (no distance healing).
a direct spell doesn't have a medium; you cast it, they feel it.
an indirect spell uses a medium - this medium (as far as spells in SR) is always physical. Since it's a physical medium, it can interact with physical things. Given that, it can hit things you can't see through the convenience of the medium
Yes, fire, lightning, acid, it's all a viable medium.if you were to send real burning flames around a corner, wouldn't you expect something to burn if it can and it was hit?
That is the reasoning for saying 'treat an indirect spell as a ranged attack'. It's not a see and hit spell, it's a projectile spell.
but that wasn't the question I asked - in a RITUAL sorcery situation, if you set a sustainable spell through the spotter, how are the rules of sustaining held? by the description of line of sight, there's nothing saying you have to keep LOS to sustain the spell in place (but it doesn't say you can either).
But can it be done? could you place a physical barrier in a spot the spotter finds and hold it, could you levitate an item, turn to stone someone and hold it, etc, etc.
Come to think of it, some of those are touch - can you even do those in ritual sorcery? (no distance healing).
anyone else noticed that hermetics get the shaft?
WIll power - need for all for drain, to resiste Mana spells, adn for Stun boxes
Cha all need for # of bound spirites, and social skills are usually useful for everyone.
Intuition mage, all mages need to learn spells, and Intionion is for perceptoin which is darn useful, and for inititiative
Logic. Not needed for mages in general, unless you are hermetic. Skills, well, a few are useful, but none will save your butt like perceptoin will.
so all mages need willpower, cha, and intuition. Hermetic mages also need logic, becuase their drain stat doesn't serve double duty like the others.
WIll power - need for all for drain, to resiste Mana spells, adn for Stun boxes
Cha all need for # of bound spirites, and social skills are usually useful for everyone.
Intuition mage, all mages need to learn spells, and Intionion is for perceptoin which is darn useful, and for inititiative
Logic. Not needed for mages in general, unless you are hermetic. Skills, well, a few are useful, but none will save your butt like perceptoin will.
so all mages need willpower, cha, and intuition. Hermetic mages also need logic, becuase their drain stat doesn't serve double duty like the others.
Keep in mind that Logic is the only of those Attributes easy to improve with implants...
which then reduces magic.
i think i'd stick with using magic to boost it, thanks.
i think i'd stick with using magic to boost it, thanks.
I took it becuaes it fit my concept.
I had a logic of 3, so I figued before he turned into a troll, he had a logic of 5
He knows he got dumber, and this bothered him, so he saved up the money and had a cerebral booster installed.
I had a logic of 3, so I figued before he turned into a troll, he had a logic of 5
He knows he got dumber, and this bothered him, so he saved up the money and had a cerebral booster installed.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| but that wasn't the question I asked - in a RITUAL sorcery situation, if you set a sustainable spell through the spotter, how are the rules of sustaining held? by the description of line of sight, there's nothing saying you have to keep LOS to sustain the spell in place (but it doesn't say you can either). |
Sustaining spells in general does not require continued LOS to be maintained, just that you take the -2 penalty while sustaining a spell. Of course, you could always spell bind the spirit you sent to act as your spotter or slap your spell on a sustaining focus if that's what you really want to do.
This isn't explicitly stated for spells (it is explicitly stated for sustained spirit powers), but the limitation that you have to be in LOS to move a sustained area of effect spell (p. 174) strongly implies that you don't have to maintain LOS the rest of the time.
-Frank
Now that was a good answer, thank you Frank. 
Now I just need to figure out if astral counts as LOS to he physical world and I'm set, *cackles*
Although to the other topic:
I don't think Intuition counts as a real req for mages and using perception and initiative as a reason is silly, because that's a basic desire, not a magical one.
A decent mage will have a decent spellcasting rank, and since the test is extended, you only have to worry about taking too long. If your situation is really smooth, a GM may just let you auto success a set amount of time - otherwise maybe you can throw some edge into your learning if you need a boost?
You can repeat attempts to learn spells, and depending on your source it might not cost you a thing. And if it does...well...maybe you should spend that Kamra on Intuition then?
lol
as for as Charisma go, slightly better arguement with spirits involved, but I was never for binding potentially dangerous enemies much. - Never want to go to sleep right after spending all the services from a once bound fire spirit - it might come back for his paycheck.
Now I just need to figure out if astral counts as LOS to he physical world and I'm set, *cackles*
Although to the other topic:
I don't think Intuition counts as a real req for mages and using perception and initiative as a reason is silly, because that's a basic desire, not a magical one.
A decent mage will have a decent spellcasting rank, and since the test is extended, you only have to worry about taking too long. If your situation is really smooth, a GM may just let you auto success a set amount of time - otherwise maybe you can throw some edge into your learning if you need a boost?
You can repeat attempts to learn spells, and depending on your source it might not cost you a thing. And if it does...well...maybe you should spend that Kamra on Intuition then?
lolas for as Charisma go, slightly better arguement with spirits involved, but I was never for binding potentially dangerous enemies much. - Never want to go to sleep right after spending all the services from a once bound fire spirit - it might come back for his paycheck.
cha and intuitino also have great value when going Astral (cha for ST for damage, intuitino for reaction and initiative). Logic only helps Agility, which I can't find a use for in Astral space. (astral combat comes off will power)
Your Astral Infiltration rolls are based off of your Logic.
-Frank
-Frank
oh, that makes sense. Logic -> Agility, which is what's used for mundane infiltration
You know, I wonder if anyone else has noticed that Adepts with Astral Perception can now create wards? As well as spirits.
PG 185
Can be created by any Awakened being with Astral Perception (including spirits and Adepts with the Astral Perception power)
Anyone ever considered calling up a spirit and having it set up and maintain wards for you? They get 2x their Force to roll for the ward, and considering that it is not entirely unlikely to summon F8 spirits now if you are willing to take the drain, it seems like it may be a better idea to summon one of those, get 1 net hit by spending edge and having them set up your ward for you.
PG 185
Can be created by any Awakened being with Astral Perception (including spirits and Adepts with the Astral Perception power)
Anyone ever considered calling up a spirit and having it set up and maintain wards for you? They get 2x their Force to roll for the ward, and considering that it is not entirely unlikely to summon F8 spirits now if you are willing to take the drain, it seems like it may be a better idea to summon one of those, get 1 net hit by spending edge and having them set up your ward for you.
The trick is that while spirits can set up the ward, summoned spirits don't have "Create Ward" in the list of possible services they'll perform. Bound or not.
That's not to say that the GM can decide otherwise (as always), but it seems to me that you could interpret the RAW as "a spirit can set up a ward, but it isn't obligated to by the services owed from summoning."
That's not to say that the GM can decide otherwise (as always), but it seems to me that you could interpret the RAW as "a spirit can set up a ward, but it isn't obligated to by the services owed from summoning."
Ahh good point. That makes me feel better.
A ward is not a physical use, not a specific power either.
Hm. on the other hand, you can command a spirit to use a skill for you. Ward building is not a skill though, so I guess it really is up to who runs it.
I won't be allowing it, but one thing that interests me is that spirits can set up wards for themselves. That and the adepts can.
A ward is not a physical use, not a specific power either.
Hm. on the other hand, you can command a spirit to use a skill for you. Ward building is not a skill though, so I guess it really is up to who runs it.
I won't be allowing it, but one thing that interests me is that spirits can set up wards for themselves. That and the adepts can.
Don't wards take several hours to set up, depending on its strength?
If a ward can stand alone after the spirit left, I suppose it's useful as long as you have the time, otherwise they might vanish upon the spirits leaving - be it at sundown/sunup or otherwise.
interesting question though, kinda goes with my whole 'babysit this person, and don't let them get into trouble please' consideration. If trouble starts going astral solely on the intended target to babysit, would the spirit sit there and do nothing?
Maybe it'd apply as a remote action or whatever.
If a ward can stand alone after the spirit left, I suppose it's useful as long as you have the time, otherwise they might vanish upon the spirits leaving - be it at sundown/sunup or otherwise.
interesting question though, kinda goes with my whole 'babysit this person, and don't let them get into trouble please' consideration. If trouble starts going astral solely on the intended target to babysit, would the spirit sit there and do nothing?
Maybe it'd apply as a remote action or whatever.
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| You know, I wonder if anyone else has noticed that Adepts with Astral Perception can now create wards? As well as spirits. |
Actually they already could in SR3.
| QUOTE (SR3 @ p. 174, Wards) |
| Any Awakened character capable of astral perception can set up a ward, given time |
There was no restriction given that adepts or spirits couldn't do it.
so back to something brought up on the last page, can a spirit being summoned use it's edge to get more successes against the summons? Example: mage summons force 6 fire elemental to bind it. Elemental rolls 12 dice (6*2) + 6 more dice (edge=force=6) and there fore a force 6 spirit/elemental rolls 18 dice to resist the binding. Is that right?
if it wants to, yes.
I thought a spirit/elemental/whatever rolled its force, then edge if it used it, not forcex2 and/or edge?
granted, each hit counts as 2 boxes, so in truth that's 24+ boxes of potenial mayhem a spirit gives..
summoning just isn't as healthy as it use to be, lol.
granted, each hit counts as 2 boxes, so in truth that's 24+ boxes of potenial mayhem a spirit gives..
summoning just isn't as healthy as it use to be, lol.
I am still completely unsold on the idea that a spirit that does not yet exist can declare the use of its Edge before rolling the dice. Or even after rolling the dice, since the spirit does not appear until after the results of the roll are calculated.
If no hits are made by the magician, there's no spirit, and thus nothing to spend edge. If magician makes net hits, the spirit appears and can jolly well spend Edge, but then it's too late to spend Edge on the summoning test at that time.
Spirits can spend Edge on resisting the control check after they have been banished into uncontrolled status, which is one more way in which Banishing isn't good.
-Frank
If no hits are made by the magician, there's no spirit, and thus nothing to spend edge. If magician makes net hits, the spirit appears and can jolly well spend Edge, but then it's too late to spend Edge on the summoning test at that time.
Spirits can spend Edge on resisting the control check after they have been banished into uncontrolled status, which is one more way in which Banishing isn't good.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| I am still completely unsold on the idea that a spirit that does not yet exist can declare the use of its Edge before rolling the dice. Or even after rolling the dice, since the spirit does not appear until after the results of the roll are calculated. |
That is a question of perspective. Spirits may very well exist before they are called (maybe not in the form or force they take but as full entities on their native metaplanes). The fact that Summoning and Binding are Opposed rolls at all suggests this. Then there's the argument that if they're capable of making Opposed rolls at all then they're capable of spending Edge.
| QUOTE |
| If no hits are made by the magician, there's no spirit, and thus nothing to spend edge. If magician makes net hits, the spirit appears and can jolly well spend Edge, but then it's too late to spend Edge on the summoning test at that time. |
Actually even if it were contigent on the magician making net hits, the spirit could theoretically spend Edge (with the after the roll Edge option).
Does this constitute a meat puppet?
Decrease willpower and hope to knock willpower to 0
control body/actions/whatever spell on the noew will-less target?
Decrease willpower and hope to knock willpower to 0
control body/actions/whatever spell on the noew will-less target?
well, the one question remains unanswered, but maybe these ones will get more fire, heheh.
these are more about spell definitions and actual uses.
1)Turn to Goo and Petrify: when you use these, is the use alone pretty much lethal to the perso if they ever had any cyberware or otherwise? Would a petrified person's arm still work fine once the spell was released/dispelled, or is it forever out of sync until someone does some cyber-tweaking? Does one turned to goo find their arms not re-attaching when that spell goes just becaues they were flat as a pancake on the floor? Or does everything 'fit back into place' unless you do something like separate some goop or break the statue's nose?
2)shapechange: Potentially, a good roll and/or edge could turn you into a super-critter with obscene stats. aret here actual limits beyond the force of the spell, or is there no racial limit for critters you also have to obey?
3)analyze device: Just how literal is this spell? does this mean guns and computers and technology are potentially all pseudo-mastering, or could you pick up a battle axe or monowhip and get similar results? Could you pick up a book on kung fu and learn it all with a flip of the pages and a little magic?
these are more about spell definitions and actual uses.
1)Turn to Goo and Petrify: when you use these, is the use alone pretty much lethal to the perso if they ever had any cyberware or otherwise? Would a petrified person's arm still work fine once the spell was released/dispelled, or is it forever out of sync until someone does some cyber-tweaking? Does one turned to goo find their arms not re-attaching when that spell goes just becaues they were flat as a pancake on the floor? Or does everything 'fit back into place' unless you do something like separate some goop or break the statue's nose?
2)shapechange: Potentially, a good roll and/or edge could turn you into a super-critter with obscene stats. aret here actual limits beyond the force of the spell, or is there no racial limit for critters you also have to obey?
3)analyze device: Just how literal is this spell? does this mean guns and computers and technology are potentially all pseudo-mastering, or could you pick up a battle axe or monowhip and get similar results? Could you pick up a book on kung fu and learn it all with a flip of the pages and a little magic?
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Dec 31 2005, 07:48 AM) |
| well, the one question remains unanswered, but maybe these ones will get more fire, heheh. these are more about spell definitions and actual uses. 1)Turn to Goo and Petrify: when you use these, is the use alone pretty much lethal to the perso if they ever had any cyberware or otherwise? Would a petrified person's arm still work fine once the spell was released/dispelled, or is it forever out of sync until someone does some cyber-tweaking? Does one turned to goo find their arms not re-attaching when that spell goes just becaues they were flat as a pancake on the floor? Or does everything 'fit back into place' unless you do something like separate some goop or break the statue's nose? 2)shapechange: Potentially, a good roll and/or edge could turn you into a super-critter with obscene stats. aret here actual limits beyond the force of the spell, or is there no racial limit for critters you also have to obey? 3)analyze device: Just how literal is this spell? does this mean guns and computers and technology are potentially all pseudo-mastering, or could you pick up a battle axe or monowhip and get similar results? Could you pick up a book on kung fu and learn it all with a flip of the pages and a little magic? |
On 1) I personally go with your last option. Everything comes back into place.
On 2) Rulewise there is no other limit than the force of the Spell and your Edge of course.
On 3) AFAIK you can pick up axes and knives, and would know how to use them. As for the book, you would know how to use this book. That means, how to flip pages, how to read, maybe you could understand the meaning behind the words (GM call i'd say) but not the actual words themselves.
So you could learn Kung-Fu from it normally (while sustaining the spell somehow), but you would not instantly know the style of Kung-Fu presented in the book.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| Does this constitute a meat puppet? Decrease willpower and hope to knock willpower to 0 control body/actions/whatever spell on the noew will-less target? |
i would say someone who's willpower is decreased to 0 cannot function (as per the spell description) and therefore, while you would control them, their actions would be limited to standing there and drooling.
what you want to do requires three (but sometimes two) spells, IMO.
1) reduce willpower to 1. if they already have willpower 1, then this would be the spell you don't need. you want to take them to 1, not 0, so be careful...
2) cast chaos on them. you only want to give them a -1 penalty, so plan accordingly. as spell resistance is an opposed test, they will have a -1 to resist... meaning they have 0 dice to resist with. naturally, this means they can only succeed if they have dice from elsewhere (magic resistance, counterspelling, and edge being the three i can think of offhand).
3) now cast your controlling spell. make it as high force as you like. they get a resistance test every (force) turns. as the test in question has 0 dice backing it up, i expect it will be a little difficult for them to make it.
now, even this is not permanent (someone can give them counterspelling assistance, for example, and they can spend edge) so they will eventually break free (unless you make them totally suck by having a massively high chaos effect on them).
alternatively, if you can figure out some spell design rules, you could just make a spell to reduce spell resistance on the target. naturally, if you do that, you can just use 2 spells, and if you have the spell resistance one powerful enough, it may make it next to impossible for them to break free (but still possible).
Are magesight goggles just goggles with huge cables of fiberoptics running out of them? If so, they don't seem very useful. And can contacts be wired for optics? Also, can you cast physical spells while in astral, or can you just cast manabolts?
yes. they let you cast spells (or just look) around corners, etc. Heck, our samouri has a pair for peeking around things.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Are magesight goggles just goggles with huge cables of fiberoptics running out of them? If so, they don't seem very useful. And can contacts be wired for optics? Also, can you cast physical spells while in astral, or can you just cast manabolts? |
You can cast all the manabolts you want, just not at physical targets.
When you are in the physical plane, you can cast mana and physical spells at physical targets.
When you are astrally perceiving or dual natured, you can cast mana spells at astral targets as well as the normal physical ones. However, you can be attacked from the astral.
When you are on the astral plane you can cast mana spells at astral targets, including astrally perceiving or other dual natured beings. No other targets or spells are viable.
in other words, only mana based spells while projecting.
As far as the mage sight goggles go, you can cast spells through fiber optics because it is light based, hence optics. IIRC the max length they can go w/o boosting is 2 meters, but if you check out SOTA 63, in the security system , there's an entire system for fiber optics security that ranges a lot farther than that , jsut with modifiers. I believe it was called Prometheus. My players hate it when they start getting hit with spells from no where that they can't shoot back at. They started carrying laser pointers just for this.
As far as the mage sight goggles go, you can cast spells through fiber optics because it is light based, hence optics. IIRC the max length they can go w/o boosting is 2 meters, but if you check out SOTA 63, in the security system , there's an entire system for fiber optics security that ranges a lot farther than that , jsut with modifiers. I believe it was called Prometheus. My players hate it when they start getting hit with spells from no where that they can't shoot back at. They started carrying laser pointers just for this.
| QUOTE (emo samurai @ Strikes Again!/Ha-Ha-Ha) |
| Are magesight goggles just goggles with huge cables of fiberoptics running out of them? If so, they don't seem very useful. |
They allow a mage to extend their Line Of Sight to places that it normally couldn't go. As an added bonus, if a mage uses magesight goggles to obtain LOS past an obstacle such as a corner or a wall, any magical support the opposition finds their own LOS still blocked by the obstacle. At best, the opposition would have LOS to the end of the fiber optic cable, but fiber optic cables are typically harder to hit with a spell, and besides, zapping a fiberoptic cable with a spell isn't nearly as effective as zapping the opposing mage with a spell.
| QUOTE |
| Also, can you cast physical spells while in astral, or can you just cast manabolts? |
I suggest re-reading the second paragraph under the sub-heading "Step. 3: Chose the Target(s)" on p.173. You can find the answers to your question there.
I've been doing alot of reading, and came up with interesting facts....
Chance of encountering a Ward greater than 5 were rare in SR3, what with the TN being Force, and the 'man hours' of failure being doubled to re-try. So on average, as a GM, I'd Force 5 all but the most important areas, which I'd do at Force 9 by default. Chances of seeing a Ward greater than Force 11 were near miniscule to impossible, no matter your grade.
Grade 6 Initiate could, in the new edition, summon a Force 24 Ward rather easily, with the physical drain being his only (heh) concern. With a much cheaper, medical team on alert, and a spare mage with stabilize, and heal, and an edge spent to re-roll failures (averaging 6 successes on the drain). Of course, you don't 'need' a Force 24, 18 is more than enough to out-roll most attacks against a ward. Makes for a much more magically defensive world.
Quickening now, 24 karma for a Grade 6 Initiate to quicken a Force 12 spell (stun drain only....), that's impressive.... Those -2 Drain Improved Attribute spells look really nice to a high-grade initiate, no? If I were going to be working for a Corp, I'd have a 12+ Willpower, 12+ Logic (Charisma), and summon Force 24 Wards every week if they wanted.... Averaging 13 successes on Drain. Bit of pain for wowza nuyen. I know the mega-corp I previously worked for paid a programmer a mil a year to keep their database up 24/7. Good mage would be worth 10 times that.
Of course, with so many Mega-Corps having Dragons around, I can't imagine there's any MegaCorp primary HQ with a Ward less than 24. Places that'd have had only Force 11 in my 3rd Ed games...
Damn.
Sphynx
Chance of encountering a Ward greater than 5 were rare in SR3, what with the TN being Force, and the 'man hours' of failure being doubled to re-try. So on average, as a GM, I'd Force 5 all but the most important areas, which I'd do at Force 9 by default. Chances of seeing a Ward greater than Force 11 were near miniscule to impossible, no matter your grade.
Grade 6 Initiate could, in the new edition, summon a Force 24 Ward rather easily, with the physical drain being his only (heh) concern. With a much cheaper, medical team on alert, and a spare mage with stabilize, and heal, and an edge spent to re-roll failures (averaging 6 successes on the drain). Of course, you don't 'need' a Force 24, 18 is more than enough to out-roll most attacks against a ward. Makes for a much more magically defensive world.
Quickening now, 24 karma for a Grade 6 Initiate to quicken a Force 12 spell (stun drain only....), that's impressive.... Those -2 Drain Improved Attribute spells look really nice to a high-grade initiate, no? If I were going to be working for a Corp, I'd have a 12+ Willpower, 12+ Logic (Charisma), and summon Force 24 Wards every week if they wanted.... Averaging 13 successes on Drain. Bit of pain for wowza nuyen. I know the mega-corp I previously worked for paid a programmer a mil a year to keep their database up 24/7. Good mage would be worth 10 times that.
Of course, with so many Mega-Corps having Dragons around, I can't imagine there's any MegaCorp primary HQ with a Ward less than 24. Places that'd have had only Force 11 in my 3rd Ed games...
Damn.
Sphynx
or you could just pay 500 
per force rating and have as high a force as you can afford, and it can be made by an almost fully burned-out magician with a magic rating of 1.
in SR3, it had to be a shaman, but it can now be either.
if the corp really wanted, they could have a pretty dang hefty ward over something for a rather cheap price.
per force rating and have as high a force as you can afford, and it can be made by an almost fully burned-out magician with a magic rating of 1.in SR3, it had to be a shaman, but it can now be either.
if the corp really wanted, they could have a pretty dang hefty ward over something for a rather cheap price.
The magical lodge trick has a number of disadvantages:
1. Takes a day per force point in addition to 500 per force for the materials.
2. Lodges aren't of specific size, but they don't appear to be 50 cubic meters times your magic attribute.
3. Lodges are astrally limked to the creator.
-Frank
1. Takes a day per force point in addition to 500
per force for the materials.2. Lodges aren't of specific size, but they don't appear to be 50 cubic meters times your magic attribute.
3. Lodges are astrally limked to the creator.
-Frank
the lodge also stays there indefinitely, costs less, has no drain, and can be boosted to infinity.
and i think in SR3 at least, the lodge's size was indicated (i believe it was a maximum of the lodge's force in meters for either radius or diameter, iirc).
of course, i could be just totally off my rocker on that, you never know
at any rate, i believe you are correct that there doesn't seem to be any information on lodge size in SR4.
and i think in SR3 at least, the lodge's size was indicated (i believe it was a maximum of the lodge's force in meters for either radius or diameter, iirc).
of course, i could be just totally off my rocker on that, you never know
at any rate, i believe you are correct that there doesn't seem to be any information on lodge size in SR4.
looking over the metamagics, does masking no longer cover any in effect spells or foci on your person? I didn't see anything to that effect.
Also, is the ability to spoof a ward gone now? I do see that you can force through a ward, but there's nothing about tricking a ward through masking to make it think that you're 'allowed'. Hopefully there;s something more to this answer than "I think it wil be covered in Street Magic."
Also, is the ability to spoof a ward gone now? I do see that you can force through a ward, but there's nothing about tricking a ward through masking to make it think that you're 'allowed'. Hopefully there;s something more to this answer than "I think it wil be covered in Street Magic."
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Hopefully there;s something more to this answer than "I think it wil be covered in Street Magic." |
Dashing hopes is like my seventh favorite thing to do!
| QUOTE |
| looking over the metamagics, does masking no longer cover any in effect spells or foci on your person? I didn't see anything to that effect. |
Yes. Though the Flexible Signature metamagic can make a spell's signature last for zero hours if Force is equal or less than your initiate grade. You can make a pretty solid case that a spell whose signature isn't visible for any amount of time isn't visible at all, which is even better than the old Masking trick of making people make arcane checks to see if they can see your spells.
That being said, there isn't currently any way to hide an active focus or spirit power, which makes Master Shedim and Alchemists the world over cry real tears. Either they will introduce an expanded masking variant that covers externalities, or masking is just going to be a much more tactical decision than it used to be. Right now, you really have to limit your use of magic if you want to make your Masking convincing, which you certainly didn't used to have to do.
-Frank
so what are the other six?
The other thing that I've noticed is the lack of two of my other favorite rules : focus addiction and magic loss due to deadly wounds (which has come up in my games amazingly).
I know that the number of foci you can use at any one time is limited b your logic, but I like the addiction angle.
But so much of the rules is based offo f the idea that many invasive medicienes can effect magical ability, but there is no surgery that takes away essence except for augmentation. Just missing some of the good ol' burn outs I guess.
But hey, at least good ol' Johhny Practically-a-cyber-zombie Spinrad would still have no magic!
The other thing that I've noticed is the lack of two of my other favorite rules : focus addiction and magic loss due to deadly wounds (which has come up in my games amazingly).
I know that the number of foci you can use at any one time is limited b your logic, but I like the addiction angle.
But so much of the rules is based offo f the idea that many invasive medicienes can effect magical ability, but there is no surgery that takes away essence except for augmentation. Just missing some of the good ol' burn outs I guess.
But hey, at least good ol' Johhny Practically-a-cyber-zombie Spinrad would still have no magic!
I suspect this has been asked, but hey...repetition leads to memorization!
what damage value does the Heal spell use to determine drain: the total of the person being healed, or the amount you heal with the spell?
what damage value does the Heal spell use to determine drain: the total of the person being healed, or the amount you heal with the spell?
and this time a question of amusement:
if the spell is yours, can you automatically see the results, or 'resist' your own spells in action?
case in point, improved invisibility on a wall. Will you always see through it no matter what, or will be bit a ghostly thing, or nothing period?
if the spell is yours, can you automatically see the results, or 'resist' your own spells in action?
case in point, improved invisibility on a wall. Will you always see through it no matter what, or will be bit a ghostly thing, or nothing period?
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