Is anyone else really disappointed with Technomancers. I really think they have gone WAY too far making Technomancers mage rip-offs, especially the translation of essence, summoning and meta plane rules into the matrix. In the past it was always up in the air if oakatu were magical or not. If they aren't magical, then FanPro just pissed all over them by killing much of what was distinctive about them to force them into the same game mechanics as mages.

Pel

Nahh I think they are just fine. In fact, I really think that they are now much more interessant to play (and to have in a Shadowrunner's group) than the previous Otakus.

technomancers are one of the big reasons i dislike SR4. one of the biggest problems, second only to the technomancers-are-magical aspect (it's not said, but it's hard to draw any other conclusion), is that there's no flavor to technomancers. there's no real indicator of what it's like to be a technomancer, or how they're percieved by society, or even how common they are. they're just a collection of mechanics. this is exceptionally disappointing to me because SR3 otaku were so very interesting and well-described.

i agree that technomances are easier to include in a runner group, and that's definitely a good thing. however, they sacrificed a lot of flavor--all the flavor, really, especially for new SR players.

I don't like them either - they're just a different kind of magician with the serial numbers scratched off, which leads to nonsensical rules like these technomancers not being able to implant cyber without losing their powers. Basically, they're the biggest example in SR4 of something dumbed down for the sake of keeping the rules as simple as possible.

They're also a manifestation of something else I hate - letting magicians and adepts do more and more things that used to be the province of the cybered. It takes the feel of the game in directions I dislike (since I feel it makes about as much sense as letting mundanes implant cyber that'll replicate the effects of magical spells) and it's mechanically unsound since, unlilke Essence, Magic and Resonance still remain uncapped.

All we need now is a "nanomancer" who'll have an implanted hive containing a nanobot swarm he can release to attack other people, camouflage things, create a shield around himself, repair tissue damage, and temporarily use machines or parts therof to create "servitors", and we'll have succeeded in creating a generic system where magic and cyber use the same bland flavorless rules...

I could do without them, and probably will in games I run. Of course, the same was true for Otaku in previous editions.

I like them but I would like to see alot more information about tem other then just rules for there creation.

I liked the Otaku but never really saw any in my games and they were quickly dismissed, or it appears so by my players.

They remind me off an otaku variant some folks and I on the old dumpshock forums messed around with. These guys could see wavelengths on top of their normal vision and could interact with them. This was how they could remote with the matrix and/or vehicles.

However, I don't get the whole "cyber/bio" is bad for them when they are a "technological" archetype. It was purely placed there for game balance.

I enjoy the concept of technomancers... although I would find it more interesting if they were able to implant cyber. In all honesty I like them better than a bunch of ubber teens running around decking like (or better than) pros.

As for them being magical... I damn well hope not. An alternate theory... since apparently they had to be in the matrix when they were "reborn"... is that the nanites working with their datajacks were reprogrammed to create a biological wireless device in their heads... and it apparently ate the datajack in the process.

I do, however, agree that more flavor/fluff is needed. They need to be fleshed out, if only for our own entertainment.

We've house-ruled that Resonance losses only occur for every FULL point of Essence that you lose (essentially, you round your Essence Loss down instead of up when determining Resonance loss). That way, Technomancers can load up some 'ware, including the ever-present datajack. Also, they require a Commlink or something similar to transmit, but not receive, Wireless Matrix feeds (and they still use their living persona... they just need a "signal repeater" to channel through), and a Sim Module to go full VR (just like Otaku, who required an ASIST converter to do their mojo). Really, while all of those mechanics are a bit cumbersome, the Technomancers pretty much turn out to be the same as their non-House Rule counterparts, just a bit more complicated (and plausible).

I like Sprites. I'm not too fond of the fact that Technomancers are a bit gimped compared to out-of-the-box Hackers, but Sprites are the ultimate equalizer. If you don't have a Complex Form for a mundane operation, then just summon up a Sprite and have it do the job for you. You can have registered sprites sustain Threading, even, or have a Sprite add its rating to a Complex Form. Sprites just plain kick the snot out of anything else on the Matrix, and are a very potent edge for a budding Technomancer.

I actually like the back-story and flavor of technomancers... what I hate is that they use the same mechanics as mages, and that much of their abilities they seem to get not because they make sense, but because... well, mages can summon/banish/bind so lets have technomancers be able to do that too.

I would have much prefered that their interaction wtih sprites be very different then mages with spirts... perhaps more along the lines of familiars rather then summoning. Or the ability to interact/control sprites that already exist in the wilds of the matrix, rather then summoning them out of the astral plane... opps, resonance. The whole essense thing also really annoys me... especially since you have to really twist your background to create a character that somehow magically got made into a technomancer that didn't already have cyber implanted.

Pel.

On the other hand, I really like threading. Its a great example of how the magic-science confusion of technomancers should be handled. Its a different game mechanic then any in magic... but it fits well with the overall system (I would just get rid of sustaining threading and say that threads degrade one rank per full turn unless maintained by a sprite). However, it also hints strongly that their "might" be a magical connection. Plus, I would love to see some shadow play on the reaction of the IE's and dragons to learning about technomancers developing the technique of "threading within the matrix to boost the power of their complex forms"

Pel

Ok actualy looking at the technomancer stuff today I have a few opinions on this.

Technomancers only seem magical when you compare the rule sets. Theoreticaly wise one might say the brain waves of the technomancer are altered in such a way that they closely mimic wireless signals. Also that their brain is more attuned to the wireless transmissions as well. Due to the appearance of the otaku, and the crash one might theorize that there was a suddent evolutionary mutation that effected the change in such a way that they are able to percieve and manipulate the matrix this way, sort of like SURGE, and Goblinization, but in a less radical manner.

Anyways onto other things. The fluff for technomancers is there if you look for it. There's not alot mind you. But there's about the same amount of fluff as there is for anything else, and certainly plenty of plot hooks discovering more about them.

Reading the rules I actualy have a couple of questions concerning them, and actualy hackers. Wired matrixs. Maybe I'm missing a few things here (which is why i'm here) but unless technomancers get a datajack they can't access a wired network with their living persona? Or atleast thats the way it seems. I'm assuming with a comlink and trodes they could access a wired one...but not with their living persona? Its very confusing i think in that regard since the book itself does make reference to the fact that wired networks exist still and that they're there for security purposes (harder to get to) and or they're obsolete systems that haven't been updated.

Another question I had was concerning SIN information and technomancers. SIN's bank acounts all that good stuff in 2070 is stored on your comlink at rating 5 encryption. But Technomancers have no inherent organic memory so how does this work with them? Especialy since it's elluded to in AAA sec zones they would get scaned and their sin checked.

Anyways If anyone can answer those questions or point me to where I might find the answers I'd be much obliged

They should be able to hook up wirelessly with a commlink and have it jack into a hardwired system. They need a commlink anyway, don't they? Or can they broadcast their ID and other socially required info? Or is someone without an [obvious] commlink or means to do so exempt from broadcasting their ID in the required areas?

Note, i don't know if the commlink would present a pontential choke point on their complex forms, etc? If it did i don't see why you couldn't build a dumb repeater that just pasted data straight through.

What about Hermetics? Do they get the shaft again?

If i was GM i'd say one of those ways or the other they can get in. Definately the later, though they'll have to either build it themselves or drop cash on a contact to have one custom made (until the appropriate core supp. book comes out, where i assume there will be lots of gadgets like that).

Are you following the few commlink related threads here, which are postulating on how you can relay signals with commlinks and stuff? That should give better insight into how you or your GM might rule on things.

I've glanced over them. Laughed at a great deal of them, especialy the ones with the idea of using multiple comlinks to spread out a hackers workload.

The idea of repeating the signal is iffy to me. But I haven't overly looked into it.

As for the technomancer thing, the comlink idea is semi plausible, just treat it like another system, but one they have all the access codes too. That I suppose solves one issue.

The other is the ID info. Since techno's are essentialy living comlinks with no storage memory I would imagine they'd be treated just like any normal comlink in that regard. They are always broadcasting and recieveing information. So they'd have the different modes...just not sure how the broadcasting of the ID would work...though i suppose you could store it in your jacket like they talk about with storing your mp3's there. I don't know thoughts suggestions?

Yes, god forbid I call a stupid idea stupid.

Try explaining how and I might give you that, otherwise stop wasting text.

Take this with a gain of salt, in a sourcebook or one of the novels; I remember Dunkelzahn talking too or having written a letter to Lofwyr in regards to metahumanity. He was trying to convince Lofwyr to help metahumanity survive this age. He said that metahumanity had advanced so far beyond what had been accomplished in any previous age, in such a short period of time. He continued to list the accomplishments of humanity finishing with the artificial creation of a new metaplane, the matrix.

Now after I read that I started looking at the matrix as the new baby sister of the astral plane. You have the real world bordered on each side by two planes of existence that mirror the real world, but have similar rules and inhabitants. I also saw it as just a matter of time before some metahumans would evolve to be able to naturally access this new metaplane. If you look at the matrix as an artificial metaplane, you can see why it shares many of the game world's rules associated with the astral.

I just see technomancers as not magical, but not mundane, they are something new, similar but different than magic, something created in response to the creation of this new metaplane of existence.

That’s just my take, thanks for your time.

More plausable and more interesting. Also explains a great deal... although I still don't like the whole essense linked to resonance thing.

Ah the possibilities...

I did if you read the text. Existing Nanites within cyber are reprogrammed (since they are part of the datajack and aid in the nerve to digital transfer) by... say a world wide virus/AI... in certain individuals that survive. They rewire the brain and rework the brain chemistery to accept wireless signals of various kinds. In doing so they allocate needed parts from forien objects, mostly just the datajack.

And they DON'T eliminate the various other cyber. A starting Technomancer can have cyber, it simply weakens their ability for some reason.

This is as much an explaination as any other. It works in theory, beyond that theres no way to prove anything, no matter what (unless of course they come out with such data in the matrix book).

Have fun. Stop bothering me. Thank you. ^^

How does that explain newly-created Technomancers, who never had a Datajack to start with, and were not plugged into the Matrix when the Crash 2.0 happened?

Ninjas did it, or possibly invisible gnomes.

Seriously, I got nothing.

Professional Ninja Gnome Drop Bears with a MicroDecks Certificate in Cybermancy.

Its pirates that are evil, not ninjas.

I had assumed that only those with Hot ASSIST had the whole.... trapped in the matrix thing going on. How would trodes trap someone in a computer?

I like Dalamar's explaination better anyway.

I did not know that.... **goes and reads Matrix rulebook**

The Matrix as a stepchild of the Astral reminds me of a paper I once read an excerpt from comparing the Internet to the Aborigine "Dream-time" and made a fairly well constructed arguement in the piece I read. CRT's and televisions tend to induce an alpha state in the brain waves, similair to that of meditation (the calming effect of TV), on the Internet you can find information and data that you normally would never have access to (something also attributed to the Dream-time), you are able to communicate with people hundreds of miles away without much more effort than thought (something also attributed to Dream-time). They go on to theorize that as the Internet becomes closer to the collective unconscious the Dream-time as it was will begin to vanish.
This makes me wonder if Aboriginies have a higher per capita population of Technomancers or Awakened than the rest of the world.

Erm, back to Technomancers and SINs, a regular commlink doesn't necessarily have the actual information of the SIN stored on it (although it might). What it has is references to banks, ID databases, various different locations that constitute your identity (to use 20th century examples, your D/BMV driver's license, your passport, bank accounts, etc.). Whenever someone does an ID check, they aren't comparing against the information on your Commlink (that would be WAY silly)... they are comparing against the identity displayed by your commlink versus a handful (or perhaps a hundred, who knows?) other locations on the Matrix.

On a side note, any time a Technomancer needs storage, they can dump it to a device at hand (an old commlink in the pocket, whatever) or a remote onine location.

EDIT: Oh, and as far as sprites, you can register sprites to have them around effectively "permanently". Unlike spirits, they don't mind being "bound" much.

My copy of SotA:63's AWOL, can someone confirm or deny that the writers took stupid pills?

~J

Pg 86 Man and Machine

"In particular, large and adaptiable projects performed by nanites require the rapid descision making, adaptability, and heuristic learing of a semi-autotomitious knowbot or even an AI. It is immpossible for a human being to"rig" a nanite system, and no desig system allows for metahuman/nanite interfacing. Although a metahuman CAN change the programming on the knowbot or the program running the nanites."

However I assume you are refering to this:

"Nanoware cannot induce gross physical changes in a human body. Individual nanites operate on a cellular level, and even collectively they canot directly alter the body significantly. That is not to say that can't have an impact, but this will be an indirect consequence of the nanite population."

Am I right?

Now. My problem is that when I posted it I was only half serious. Then someone goes around tossing around names like we're in grade school. I get real aggrivated when people do things like that. You can be slightly polite or even just make a statement that does not break down to name calling. Say for instance: "Sorry it doesn't work that way."

That simple. Now grow the fuck up.

Your joking tone, while I'm sure obvious both in person and in your head, was completely absent by the time it got to text. Such things usually are. Add to that a game that has shown itself willing to try to explain things with exactly that level of rigor (that is to say none at all—I'll also point out that nanites are explicitly transient, so unless someone has a hive or is within a week or two of implantation there won't be any in the first place), and you may start to see what prompted the violence of that reaction.

It was a stupid idea and our tolerance for stupid has been completely shot to pieces.

~J