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Wireknight
QUOTE (blakkie)
That is a curious metaphor given that you can infact toggle a setting NTFS drives that turns compression on and does in fact create extra space (and it is not the first software to do this either). smile.gif  Not all 1's and 0's are used to carry the full amount of information.


You and FrankTrollman are talking about totally different things.

Compression doesn't just involve eliminating random "extra" bits. or random "extra" files. It involves passing data through a certain encoding algorithm that can later be inversed in a decoding algorithm so that the original data may be retrieved. This increases overhead for all operations involving that data, since it must be decoded, and is not uniformly efficient at compressing all types of data. To adjust this to the brain analogy, it would be like thinking half as quickly in order to be able to think of 25% more things at once.

Also, bear in mind that the most efficient compression algorithms (1/12th or better end filesize, almost exclusively used in multimedia) are of a lossy variety. The original data is not perfectly reproduced, but instead a reasonable facsimile of that data, given a certain progressive decoding algorith and a compressed input stream, is what you get. Ever noticed the blurring/blotchiness in JPEG images and DVD movies, or how a 64kbit-encoded MP3 doesn't sound quite as "full" as one encoded at 128kbit or 192kbit? That's because little bits of data are being lost, small details that you can notice if you look for, but are closely-enough reproduced that they sort of blend in when you're not paying attention.

QUOTE (blakkie)
The space/mass efficency the human brain (and rest of the body too given that this is likely a whole body transmission) though is another question that is extremely hard to measure given our relative lack of knowledge of the details of functioning.


We've actually got a fairly advanced (compared to the 1980s, when the "10% of the brain is used" urban myth got started) ability to study neural activity. As far as I understand it, we pretty much use our whole brains. Every cell isn't necessary, but there is no particular part of the organ one could remove that would in no fashion impact its functioning. There's no secret telepathy/radio-brain neuron cluster sitting around wondering why we haven't started using that chunk of the brain yet.

Oh, and to the person suggested that the abundance of cyberware and bioware increased available neural bioelectric current to the point of radio frequency emissions?

That is quite possibly the most insane thing I've ever heard. From a rules perspective, bioware and cyberware decrease the signal strength (resonance) of the brain-radio-monster-things that were otaku. From a biological perspective... ever overpower your router to boost its wireless signal strength? Feel it. Doesn't it feel hotter than when it's running at factory default? Sniff it. Don't you get a slight whiff of ozone, not enough to make you freak out, but enough to let you know that your device is probably losing another few minutes of life for every day it's operating? Think of doing that to your brain. 115F (46C) fever? Smells like bacon? You'd flatline in seconds.
Shadow_Prophet
Didn't you see the whole magic linking thing comeing in all the way back in 2nd ed?

Harlequins back.

Specificaly makes mention that harlequin thought that mandkind would be able to advance enough and merge technology and magic together and be able to fight off the horrors.

Dunklezan makes mention that the matrix is like a artificial metaplane.

Its been building up to that point forever.

Secondly. If you can accept the mundane portions of shadowrun...you should even be able to accept this. I mean Goblinization, cyberware, the ability to regrow any organ in your body, except the brain, perfectly. The idea that real meat and things will be hightly highly expensive and mainly only for the rich and the rest of us will be eating soy everything...

Oh another thing...if you accept the synaptic accelerator bioware, what to say that the crash of '64 didn't cause some radical eveolutionary jump in ceratain people creating a similar effect but in a different way to enable the ability to sense feel and broadcast radiowaves? *shrugs*
Wireknight
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 16 2005, 01:37 PM)
Oh another thing...if you accept the synaptic accelerator bioware, what to say that the crash of '64 didn't cause some radical eveolutionary jump in ceratain people creating a similar effect but in a different way to enable the ability to sense feel and broadcast radiowaves?  *shrugs*

Rather than respond to the full raging inferno of insanity that was your last post, in entirety, I'm going to reiterate that despite your idea that bioware created technomancers, a technomancer with no bioware is going to be more powerful than one with the aforementioned synaptic booster. What's that? Purely (para)biological basis for the effect? Effect's strength is based upon a cyberphobic Essence-linked statistic? Sounds a lot like magic to me. Magic lets you explain away crazy things like this. The problem is that people are trying to say that it's not magic.

The presence of magic in a game does not allow you to explain away supposedly mundane things that are so fantastic as to require some amount of that good old disbelief-suspending magic. If you suddenly said that a lot of humans were now 10 feet tall and had batwings, but it wasn't magic, but was instead a single-generation evolutionary shift, people would probably suggest that your mind is, as mentioned earlier, a raging inferno of insanity. Some of us don't like unsatisfying explanations and flimsy justifications that make Fantastic Four look like a scientific documentary.
blakkie
QUOTE (Wireknight @ Sep 16 2005, 12:26 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie)
That is a curious metaphor given that you can infact toggle a setting NTFS drives that turns compression on and does in fact create extra space (and it is not the first software to do this either). smile.gif  Not all 1's and 0's are used to carry the full amount of information.


You and FrankTrollman are talking about totally different things.

Compression doesn't just involve eliminating random "extra" bits. or random "extra" files. It involves passing data through a certain encoding algorithm that can later be inversed in a decoding algorithm so that the original data may be retrieved. This increases overhead for all operations involving that data, since it must be decoded, and is not uniformly efficient at compressing all types of data. To adjust this to the brain analogy, it would be like thinking half as quickly in order to be able to think of 25% more things at once.

So? There is a price to be paid, thus the requirement for Submersion to align it all so the Techno doesn't slip on his own drool or forget to breath while chewy gum. smile.gif

EDIT: Oh, and my computer doesn't run 1/2 as slow, to pack in 25% more things on the HD. nyahnyah.gif Setting aside that it is a metaphor, so scaling and such is not appropriate.

QUOTE
QUOTE (blakkie)
The space/mass efficency the human brain (and rest of the body too given that this is likely a whole body transmission) though is another question that is extremely hard to measure given our relative lack of knowledge of the details of functioning.


We've actually got a fairly advanced (compared to the 1980s, when the "10% of the brain is used" urban myth got started) ability to study neural activity. As far as I understand it, we pretty much use our whole brains. Every cell isn't necessary, but there is no particular part of the organ one could remove that would in no fashion impact its functioning. There's no secret telepathy/radio-brain neuron cluster sitting around wondering why we haven't started using that chunk of the brain yet.


Ya, the urban myth irks me too.

Well i certainly didn't suggest there was a secret neuron cluster there right now, that is down right loony. nyahnyah.gif I also suggest that limiting it to just the brain doing the work is a mistake.

P.S. I also happen to think that having them be able to transmit/receive with absolutely no hardware is dumb. Perhaps done to make it easier rules for the balancing of 'ware kills Resonance? *shrug* I think there are better ways they could have done that. I just happen to rate it somewhere at the high-end of normal SR nonsense....which you'll notice looking through this thread, isn't a view shared only by technically innept people outside the wireless telemetry field.
blakkie
QUOTE (Wireknight)
The problem is that people are trying to say that it's not magic.

Well i happen to be saying they don't appear to be mages (they don't astrally assense as awakened). There have been hints in past canon that there are some sort of links to the astral.

QUOTE
Effect's strength is based upon a cyberphobic Essence-linked statistic? Sounds a lot like magic to me.


So? Cyberware takes away essense? Is it magical?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 16 2005, 01:53 PM)
So? Cyberware takes away essense? Is it magical?

I dunno. Ask Hatchetman.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
Didn't you see the whole magic linking thing comeing in all the way back in 2nd ed?

Harlequins back.

Specificaly makes mention that harlequin thought that mandkind would be able to advance enough and merge technology and magic together and be able to fight off the horrors.

Dunklezan makes mention that the matrix is like a artificial metaplane.

Its been building up to that point forever.

Secondly. If you can accept the mundane portions of shadowrun...you should even be able to accept this. I mean Goblinization, cyberware, the ability to regrow any organ in your body, except the brain, perfectly. The idea that real meat and things will be hightly highly expensive and mainly only for the rich and the rest of us will be eating soy everything...

Oh another thing...if you accept the synaptic accelerator bioware, what to say that the crash of '64 didn't cause some radical eveolutionary jump in ceratain people creating a similar effect but in a different way to enable the ability to sense feel and broadcast radiowaves? *shrugs*

*smacks Shadow upside the head*

Hey! Stop doing my job! I perfected factually-innaccurate, logically-incomprehensible, pseudo-scientific insanity theory posts and I plan to defend my job of using them!
blakkie
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Sep 16 2005, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 16 2005, 01:53 PM)
So? Cyberware takes away essense? Is it magical?

I dunno. Ask Hatchetman.

frown.gif A momment of silence for poor Hatchetman. cyber.gif dead.gif

......

Anyway, ya. There are astral/essense tie-ins between tech and magic, and there is one with Technos. In SR4 it is an assensing Threshhold 5 to identify a Techno, much higher than it is to any other type of 'ware.

Curiously, as i have previously mentioned, according to the view of a widower (fluff at the start of the chargen chapter) there is at least a belief that you can activate latent Techno ability through surgery. That most definately doesn't sound like a mage.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Sabosect)

*smacks Shadow upside the head*

Hey! Stop doing my job! I perfected factually-innaccurate, logically-incomprehensible, pseudo-scientific insanity theory posts and I plan to defend my job of using them!

Oh allright, if you insist...geeze wink.gif
Xenith
Eh. Its all for fun really. A technomancer has very close to zero chance of being even possible in the real world with what I knew BEFORE I did a search. It hasn't raised in any significant manner to me. However, I feel looking for some sort of long shot explaination might be able to give GMs a different (or prefered) flavor to the technomancers. Don't want them to be magical , explain it away with (albeit flawed) "science". Its all just a game and doesn't really have to reflect the real world exactly. smile.gif
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Xenith)
Eh. Its all for fun really. A technomancer has very close to zero chance of being even possible in the real world with what I knew BEFORE I did a search. It hasn't raised in any significant manner to me. However, I feel looking for some sort of long shot explaination might be able to give GMs a different (or prefered) flavor to the technomancers. Don't want them to be magical , explain it away with (albeit flawed) "science". Its all just a game and doesn't really have to reflect the real world exactly. smile.gif

Well how bout science creating a artificial metaplane (the matrix) thus resulting in artificial magicians (aka technomancers and otaku?).

Yeah still a bit of a 'magic' theory but hey i used the word science! wink.gif
Xenith
Fits well into shadowrun really. I find that particular explaination the most comfortable. From the various mini-stories it seems to suggest that AIs still have a hand in it (aside from Deus and his two AI enemies) or that these ghosts in the machine have become a sort of new kinda of free sprite/AI. Or something like that. Like many shadowrun flavor text its set up to be rather open as to who/what/why. Which is damn well how I like it. grinbig.gif
mfb
QUOTE (blakkie)
However on a more serious note, you have forgotten the literary example of a transceiver integrated into a person's brain? It was Neuromancer, right?

a) no, that was count zero and mona lisa overdrive, the second two books of the trilogy which neuromancer began. i explain this because you apparently haven't read them. if you had, you'd probably remember that angela mitchell (the character who could surf the Matrix with no computer) had her brain wired by her father.

b) if you're looking to william gibson for science facts, your education is in a truly sorry state of disrepair. stop posting and go read a real science book. gibson doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, 99% of the time.

c) the reason this sort of thing matters to me--one of the reasons, anyway--is that i plan on playing SR in 2070 using a heavily-modified SR3 ruleset. lack of stupids in the setting data (which i'd prefer to take whole as much as possible) would make that task easier.
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 16 2005, 02:03 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie)
However on a more serious note, you have forgotten the literary example of a transceiver integrated into a person's brain? It was Neuromancer, right?

a) no, that was count zero and mona lisa overdrive, the second two books of the trilogy which neuromancer began. i explain this because you apparently haven't read them. if you had, you'd probably remember that angela mitchell (the character who could surf the Matrix with no computer) had her brain wired by her father.

I'm working off the Cole's Notes version, i didn't really like his writing i sampled. *shrug* However it was not just a chunk of cyber, it was integrated nanoware (correct?), and ya gotta have some room and a power source for it. It mean it for having room and meshing, not the source of how it happened.....all of which i already covered with you.

QUOTE
b) if you're looking to william gibson for science facts, your education is in a truly sorry state of disrepair. stop posting and go read a real science book. gibson doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, 99% of the time.


Well ya, welcome to wonderful world of pop science/fantasy fiction. wavey.gif It is 'fiction' afterall.

QUOTE
c) the reason this sort of thing matters to me--one of the reasons, anyway--is that i plan on playing SR in 2070 using a heavily-modified SR3 ruleset. lack of stupids in the setting data (which i'd prefer to take whole as much as possible) would make that task easier.


Exactly how did you survive Otaku?....or the rest of SR? wobble.gif Hell, the suspension of belief required to accept the economy of the 6th world is enough to lift Lowfyr's fat ass straight into space, and that isn't directly magic either.
Fortune
I'm almost tempted to add a little addendum to the rule about Technomancers losing Resonance (ie. Magic nyahnyah.gif) in relation to Essence, and make a Datajack the (sole) exception to this rule. That way I can just ignore the part about them sending radio waves from their brain.

That is, if I ever include the "brain-radio-monster-things-that-were-otaku" in my games in the first place. nyahnyah.gif
Ranneko
Were I going along those lines, I would go the route someone else mentioned on this thread, where you round down the amount of essence worth of 'ware you have, rather than up, and completely remove the signal aspect of resonance.
mfb
QUOTE (blakkie)
However it was not just a chunk of cyber, it was integrated nanoware (correct?), and ya gotta have some room and a power source for it.

wow, that's almost completely tangential to the point that technomancers don't have a power source. congratulations, you are not addressing what i'm saying.

QUOTE (blakkie)
It is 'fiction' afterall.

yes. that's why i'm not using it to back up my facts.

QUOTE (blakkie)
Exactly how did you survive Otaku?

by writing about a thousand words on the subject of why otaku abilities are not implausible. as for the rest, i've gone over this before: that stuff is easily subsumed by even a weak attempt at suspension of disbelief. spitting radio waves from your brain is somewhat harder to swallow.

booklord
Here's a fanwank.

A powerful free spirit once arrived on Earth from a fairly boring metaplane. One day it happened to possess a runner who was hacking the matrix. The spirit found the matrix absolutely fascinating. Later the spirit came to befriend Otaku and would possess them to experience the matrix in even more clarity. But then Crash 2.0 happened. The spirit vowed to help its otaku friends and searched the world for them. It used its powers to grant them adept-like powers ( of course this wouldn't work for awakened individuals ) that would allow them to transmit a commlink signal without the aid of any technology. ( It also took out any already existing cyberware and restored the essense of the already existing Otaku ) Once it had found all the Otaku it moved on to spread its gift to others in the world creating more and more technomancers.

So there. It's magic.

( An alternate theory would have this spirit working for Hetsaby who as I recall had her own personal tribe of technoshamans back in SR3 and certainly seems the personality type to try this sort of thing. She then created this spirit for the sole purpose of finding all the otaku and enchanting them with this new power. )


( Don't knock this theory too fast. It's the only explanation that I can think of that makes sense. Besides it gives me some ideas for adventures as a megacorp seeks to steal the secret of technomancers and corner the market )
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (blakkie)


Exactly how did you survive Otaku?....or the rest of SR? wobble.gif Hell, the suspension of belief required to accept the economy of the 6th world is enough to lift Lowfyr's fat ass straight into space, and that isn't directly magic either.

okay gotta bite... exactly how is the economy so hard to believe?
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (blakkie)
However it was not just a chunk of cyber, it was integrated nanoware (correct?), and ya gotta have some room and a power source for it.

wow, that's almost completely tangential to the point that technomancers don't have a power source. congratulations, you are not addressing what i'm saying.

Sure, if the techo is dead.

QUOTE
QUOTE (blakkie)
It is 'fiction' afterall.

yes. that's why i'm not using it to back up my facts.


Of for fuck sakes it is an example of path of where you can head with it.

QUOTE
QUOTE (blakkie)
Exactly how did you survive Otaku?

by writing about a thousand words on the subject of why otaku abilities are not implausible. as for the rest, i've gone over this before: that stuff is easily subsumed by even a weak attempt at suspension of disbelief. spitting radio waves from your brain is somewhat harder to swallow.


If you don't see how this might be an issue, i guess that explains a lot. Have fun bitching and moaning how a game about fantasy fiction just isn't real enough for you. ohplease.gif I guess in a few years when elves don't show up you'll have to go find another game to play.
Fortune
I'd be fine with the whole thing if they'd just come out and say that Technomancers are a variety of Awakened characters. It may not be the best answer, but it would be a damn sight better than portraying them as mundane radio-heads.
booklord
QUOTE
I'd be fine with the whole thing if they'd just come out and say that Technomancers are a variety of Awakened characters. It may not be the best answer, but it would be a damn sight better than portraying them as mundane radio-heads.


I prefer my above theory that technomancers are the result of a great spirit ( that may have been created by Hetsaby ) that has been going around turning Otaku into technomancers and having run out of otaku moved on to other mundanes.

It explains why all otaku are apparrently now technomancers and it explains how mundanes can become technomancers. ( and an additional part of that theory is that awakened characters cannot become techomancers )
mfb
QUOTE (blakkie)
Of for fuck sakes it is an example of path of where you can head with it.

except it's not. for chrissake, just stop talking about angela mitchell. it's embarassing how far off base you are about her abilities.
Fortune
QUOTE (booklord)
I prefer my above theory that technomancers are the result of a great spirit ...

My only problem is that there is no precedence for regaining Essence in the manner you describe.
mfb
actually, there is. Nosferatu. *shudder*
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 18 2005, 03:52 AM)
actually, there is. Nosferatu. *shudder*

Nosferatu can give others back their Essence?

QUOTE (booklord)
It also took out any already existing cyberware and restored the essense of the already existing Otaku


That is my biggest problem with booklord's theory.
mfb
no. the book, Nosferatu. it had a high-force spirit purge a shaman of cyberware. sometimes, i cry at night when i remember that book.
Fortune
Ah yes. I had successfully blocked that from my memory until you brought it up. Thanks! nyahnyah.gif
mfb
no one escapes the pain, if i can't.
booklord
QUOTE:FORTUNE
QUOTE

QUOTE
It also took out any already existing cyberware and restored the essense of the already existing Otaku 


That is my biggest problem with booklord's theory.


Never said it was a perfect theory. But all Otaku in SR3 had a minimal cyberware investment at least. Since a lot of these Technomancers are former Otaku something needs to explain how they magically regained their essense. Or you can simply fanwank that a lot of technomancers have 5.0 - 5.9 essense based on their pre-technomancer lives.

The thing is that technomancers simply shouldn't exist. They don't make sense. They're here because the writers thought they were cool. Well, arguably the only reason that Otaku existed were because great resonance (which may or may not be considered an AI) or AIs rewired their brains. Sentient beings did not evolve the otaku abilities on their own. It makes sense that Technomancers exist for a similar reason. Something went and altered them. This is obviously beyond the scope of an AI's power so we're into magic. Hunting down and altering thousands of Otaku is beyond the scope of a being tied to the physical plane so my bet would be the single-minded dedication of a spirit. ( The ability to go nearly anywhere and be able to manifest physically would be valuable tools for such an endeavor ) Whether the spirit is doing this on its own accord or is the tool of a powerful magical creature ( like Hetsaby ) that has a strong interest and/or investment in the Otaku is anybody's guess.
Synner
QUOTE (booklord)
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE
It also took out any already existing cyberware and restored the essense of the already existing Otaku 
That is my biggest problem with booklord's theory.

Never said it was a perfect theory. But all Otaku in SR3 had a minimal cyberware investment at least.

I asked this when SL James brought it up and I'll aska again. Where the hell are you reading that Otaku who survived the Crash and evolved into Technomancers regained Essence? Or for that matter that anyone who was online with a datajack and became a technomancer following the Boston Singularity regained Essence?

If you had an Otaku in SR3 with a datajack (or other implanted character), then he should have the jack in SR4 (and the hit to Resonance). The SR4 book says nothing about anyone regaining Essence.

Don't want to take the hit, make a post-Crash Technomancer who woke into his abilities, but if you're playing a converted character he should remain consistent.
booklord
I seem to recall in another thread that a decker still needed a datajack if he were to go to a VR node. Is this true of technomancers as well? If so I'd bet that a large percent of technomancers would fall in the 5.0 - 5.9 essense category and the hit to resonance.
Fortune
QUOTE (booklord @ Sep 18 2005, 04:36 AM)
Never said it was a perfect theory.

Not a slam, mate. Your theory is as good as anyone else's to date. smile.gif

I just find the whole idea behind (non-magical) Technomancers to be somewhat ridiculous. I didn't much like Otaku in the first place, but Technomancers are far worse. In my opinion, they are the worst thing about SR4.
Synner
QUOTE (booklord @ Sep 17 2005, 06:56 PM)
I seem to recall in another thread that a decker still needed a datajack if he were to go to a VR node.    Is this true of technomancers as well?  If so I'd bet that a large percent of technomancers would fall in the 5.0 - 5.9 essense category and the hit to resonance.

Technomancers "tap" into wireless networks without requiring a datajack. In this respect they differ from their Otaku predecessors. How they do this is still unknown, but as far as anyone knows implants seem to disrupt their Resonance ability. In fact, implanting cyber/bioware of any kind limits their Resonance in a similar way that cyber/bioware impacts Magic.

Resonance does not start at 6 and is an Attribute which can be bought up like any other after you purchase the Technomancer Quality at chargen.

If you are converting a pre-Crash2.0 Otaku or if your backstory calls for acybered character which discovered his technomancer abilities after the Crash2.0, then there is no reason this shouldn't be reflected in his Essence and Resonance (ie. an SR3 Otaku conversion should take a hit to Resonance). Don't like the idea? Okay, build a technomancer who experienced his Deep Resonance (or whatever) while jacked in using a trode mesh, or expressed his potential intuitively became aware of wireless flow around him.
booklord
I never had a player take an Otaku character so I didn't really have to deal with them much. As for technomancers I agree. There really isn't a good explanantion of why they exist or how they work that doesn't involve magic. I couldn't even think of a good explanation using magic without involving the active participation of a powerful magical individual, creature or entity.

And my theory suffers a major bump when it comes to new technomancers. Otaku had their brains reconfigured by the great resonance or AIs. But new technomancers have no cyberware period. How they could they get their brains reconfigured so they could interact with the matrix? A powerful spirit could perhaps grant mundanes adept abilities to broadcast a signal from their bodies like a commlink. But that ability wouldn't mean anything until their brains were reconfigured to interact directly with the matrix. Which couldn't happen unless they connected to the matrix first. Which they couldn't do without cyberware because even if they had the commlink broadcast ability they couldn't connect to the matrix because their brains weren't configured for it......

I need to sit down now.... my head hurts..... spin.gif
booklord
The Great Technomancer Conspiracy

Booklord's revised theory

With Crash 2.0, the new wireless rush, and fading a surviving AI ( lets say Mirage, but any could do save perhaps Deus ) wanted to save the otaku from extinction and the history books. The AI learned that some Otaku had gained the capability to transmit commlink signals from their bodies without the use of cyberware. These were the technoshamans that lived on Mount Shasta under the employ of the great dragon Hetsaby. The AI contacted the great dragon and learned the dragon had created a spirit with the ability to give adept like abilities to mundane beings to emit commlink signals from their own bodies. It proposed an idea. The dragon's spirit and the AI would work together to turn give these abilities to all the surviving Otaku in the world. The AI would locate them and then transmit the location to the dragon's technomancers who in turn would have the dragon's shamans direct the spirit to the location of the otaku so they could be enhanced. It took some time but eventually all Otaku were turned into technomancers. At this point the AI turned to turning more and more people into technomancers. Even those who were only connected to the matrix via a trode mesh could be contacted by the AI and have their brains reconfigured so they could interact directly with the matrix. And Once the job was complete the AI was sure to quickly inform Hetsaby's spirit so it could magically enhance the newly initiated technomancers. Preference was given to new recruits of former Otaku tribes now technomancer tribes and whoever met the AI's fancy. ( Remember Mirage tried to pull this trick with the entire Seattle matrix so this AI might not be so picky )


There. Are there any holes in that theory? or is it twisted enough to work?
Head pain lessening..... rotate.gif
SirBedevere
Technomancers were created by a group of hyper intelligent pan-dimensional beings - aka the white mice?
Wireknight
QUOTE (SirBedevere)
Technomancers were created by a group of hyper intelligent pan-dimensional beings - aka the white mice?

I knew it.
Xenith
Alternatly, there are various other options.

Perhaps an AI, or more likely the strange virus, began reconfiguring people using a psychotropic black ic effect. (It is possible that the "egg" used to begin this new virus was the same virus that created the first crash.) This may be suggested during Captain Chaos' death fiction in System Failure. Why are new Technomancers appearing once again? Hard to say, perhaps the ghosts in the machine have something to do with that...

Say, perhaps, that a far large percentage of the world had potential magical powers, or perhaps merely very weak magical powers. You could treat technomancers as a ver specialized, very limted kind of adept that had surpassed the normal limitation of not being able to interact with radio waves and similar technological phenomina.

Stir these a bit and see if you find this combination comfortable. smile.gif
booklord
QUOTE
Alternatly, there are various other options.

Perhaps an AI, or more likely the strange virus, began reconfiguring people using a psychotropic black ic effect. (It is possible that the "egg" used to begin this new virus was the same virus that created the first crash.) This may be suggested during Captain Chaos' death fiction in System Failure. Why are new Technomancers appearing once again? Hard to say, perhaps the ghosts in the machine have something to do with that...

Say, perhaps, that a far large percentage of the world had potential magical powers, or perhaps merely very weak magical powers. You could treat technomancers as a ver specialized, very limted kind of adept that had surpassed the normal limitation of not being able to interact with radio waves and similar technological phenomina.


Oddly enough, I'm more comfortable with a great dragon-AI conspriacy working together to reconfigure mentally and magically people into technomancers than with a large percentage of the world including apparrently all Otaku having the magical potential to become technomancer adepts. I like the idea that magic is restricted to 1% of the population. ( okay maybe a little higher with elves )

The problem is that technomancers emit commlink signals. People do not have the biological capability or potential to do that. Outside of magic I don't see how that is possible in SR. You can't reconfigure a brain to emit them. But on the flip side reconfiguring a person's brain to work with the matrix without technological help is a bit too far for magic to go. Besides it was always the perview of the great resonance or AIs before. So it comes down to technomancers being the product of both magic and technology working in cooperation with each other. Coordination on that level would require a conspiracy between a powerful magic entity and a powerful technological entity. ( Unless there exists a powerful magical/technological force out there, but I just don't want to consider that )
Xenith
I imagine it would also rely on how knowledgable AI are about magical people... I imagine few and far between even begin to understand it.

On a side note, I read an SR fiction.... forgot which one it was, that mentioned an Ancient Elf who apparently was responible for a great many innovations throughout history, and who (it seemed to almost suggest) created both the virus responsible for the first crash as well as the program responsible for Echo Mirage (and thus the Matrix).

Its another stretch and conspiracy theory but perhaps doable.
booklord
QUOTE
On a side note, I read an SR fiction.... forgot which one it was, that mentioned an Ancient Elf who apparently was responible for a great many innovations throughout history, and who (it seemed to almost suggest) created both the virus responsible for the first crash as well as the program responsible for Echo Mirage (and thus the Matrix).


I believe you are referring to Leonardo.

While he did seem to possess the technology for Otaku-like abilties from what I read he didn't seem associated with them. Besides he may still be under not so sunny watch of Lofwyr.

Second it is actually fairly hinted if not outright stated in the first two books of the Dragonheart trilogy who developed the virus that caused the first crash. It was not Leonardo.


QUOTE
I imagine it would also rely on how knowledgable AI are about magical people... I imagine few and far between even begin to understand it.


True, which is what makes Hetsaby such a good choice. She has a tribe of technoshamans living with her on Mount Shasta who no doubt mentioned her name during their matrix travels. If an AI wanted to find a powerful magical ally, she'd be at the top of any list.
blakkie
QUOTE (booklord @ Sep 17 2005, 12:56 PM)
I seem to recall in another thread that a decker still needed a datajack if he were to go to a VR node.

This is not true. It seems you can even hot-sim VR through trodes (incidentally the Combat Mage sample character has the gear for this).

QUOTE (Virtual Reality @ page 228)
... A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim
module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack
or trode net....


You don't need to get cut to experience the full Matrix. You just strap on a set of trodes hook it up through a sim module to your commlink and then log onto the Matrix. To switch from cold sim VR (you only take stun damage) to hot sim (you take physical damage, but get an extra 2 die, and a 3rd Init Pass) you can illegally remove/disable the safety features of a regular sim module.

P.S. Also you aren't nearly as out of it as before either. You can actively concentrate to return to your attention back to your meat body, you just have serious penalties to do or see anything there while the VR is running (-6 die, although there seems to be an error surrounding the exact penalty).
Xenith
QUOTE (booklord)
Second it is actually fairly hinted if not outright stated in the first two books of the Dragonheart trilogy who developed the virus that caused the first crash. It was not Leonardo.


Ah. That would explain that. I only have the second book, so I figure I'll reread it. Thanks for that. smile.gif
Shadow_Prophet
The penalty in VR for using your meat body for actions is -4. For a meat body perception test while in VR there is a -6 dice penalty.

Anyways mfb, I've just about completely writen you off as someone who refuses to even remotely accept technomancers no matter the explanation. Nothing seems to be good enough for you and you're not really bringing anything to the table of discussion here other than "well thats not phyicaly possible right now". I'm sorry 65 years in the future when magic exists I'm prety sure anything can happen. Furthermore its not possible for people to throw fireballs in reality either. Yes you accept that because its labeled magic. How quaint that a little word thats 5 letters long can make you believe in the impossible, but if someone were to suggest the idea of technomancers and their abbilities and no one atm quite knows how they do what they do you automaticaly scream foul. ohplease.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
The penalty in VR for using your meat body for actions is -4. For a meat body perception test while in VR there is a -6 dice penalty.

That seems to be written as a -4 penalty on the Initiative roll. The -6 dice was for perception test. It isn't clear what penalty to assign to other rolls isn't entirely clear.
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (blakkie)
Of for fuck sakes it is an example of path of where you can head with it.

except it's not. for chrissake, just stop talking about angela mitchell. it's embarassing how far off base you are about her abilities.

She can go wireless across the room is the way it was explained to me. *shrug*

But no need to bring it up as long as you realize that you can in fact not worry about writing a thesis about why it works. Because you don't need to. It is something that is not explained because in the game world it isn't explainable. There are guesses and wild theories.

To repeat; it is not suppose to be explainable within the game world exactly how they do what they do.

P.S. That means it likely that whatever fan fiction you write up is likely to be wrong to at least some extent. So when the metaplot revealed more and your fan fiction becomes defunct you'll be back whining and bitching and moaning....and the cycle would continue. Break the cycle, just play the game.
hobgoblin
err, it just hit me that well a rfid works by using the energy that comes in to send a signal out.

could it be that somehow the technomancer body is able to absorb the energy of the wmi broadcast signals and then turn this energy into a new broadcast?

this would atleast get past the energy production problem, but what is needed to absorb and manipulate said energy?
mfb
gaming is fan fiction, idiot. jesus, you're dim.

there are plenty of things in SR that are inexplicable. some of them are pretty stupid, especially if you pay even the slightest amount of attention to real-world science. i avoid those things--for instance, not one of my characters has ever owned or used a AVS. the problem with technomancers is, you really can't avoid them without excising a major portion of the game. excising, in fact, a portion of the game that doubly holds particular interest for me: i'm interested in the Matrix, and i'm interested in otaku.

many of the same problems with biological radio emission apply to biological radio manipulation, hobgoblin. also, the game mechanics don't really back that up. if you put a technomancer in a Faraday cage, the game mechanics indicate that he'll still be able to transmit (though obviously, unless there's a wireless rcvr in the cage with him, the signal won't go anywhere). i'll admit that biological radio manipulation is much, much less dumb than biological radio emission.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (mfb)
gaming is fan fiction, idiot. jesus, you're dim.

there are plenty of things in SR that are inexplicable. some of them are pretty stupid, especially if you pay even the slightest amount of attention to real-world science. i avoid those things--for instance, not one of my characters has ever owned or used a AVS. the problem with technomancers is, you really can't avoid them without excising a major portion of the game. excising, in fact, a portion of the game that doubly holds particular interest for me: i'm interested in the Matrix, and i'm interested in otaku.

many of the same problems with biological radio emission apply to biological radio manipulation, hobgoblin. also, the game mechanics don't really back that up. if you put a technomancer in a Faraday cage, the game mechanics indicate that he'll still be able to transmit (though obviously, unless there's a wireless rcvr in the cage with him, the signal won't go anywhere). i'll admit that biological radio manipulation is much, much less dumb than biological radio emission.

Yeah I believe theres a disclaimer somewhere in the book taht the game mechanics will not represent every rl situation nor are they supposed to.

So basing your argument off the game mechanics, you might as well be arguing the world is completely flat because your map looks flat.
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