While I definitely follow the sentiment, we are trying to 1 kind of flush out some rules and mechanics for the different religions in SR. It would probably be best to rule angels and demons for that matter as free spirits. I am not sure if God would appreciate someone summoning his agents for whatever tasks they feel best suited. Now since spirits assume whatever form their summoner envisions, it technically is possible that some devout follow would think that he/she is capable on calling upon angels for help.

I know that there is at least one reference when angels had to wait and get help in order to pass demons that were stronger. I think they called Michael for help so they could pass and deliver their message. So they might not be beaten up ... but there is "spirit warfare" as well as spiritual warfare. Also in then new testament there are many passages, some from Jesus that definitely state that there are different levels of power (you can interpret as force) for angels and demons.

A Spirit with Fear or an Innate Spell for Fear would work to fill that role.

Or you could just assume that an angel appearing in front of someone is scary. Especially if that someone is from a society tought that angels are messengers of God and God can be a major bastard if you tick him off. "Fear Not!" would translate roughly to "I'm here as a messenger, not to flay your sorry ass for wanting to get a piece of your neighbors' wife's tail."

Ah, well I wasn't you see. I was explaining my opinion that you can't introduce the summoning of angels by mages into the game without either the religion as we know it, or game balance as we like it, giving way.

If you're happy to define God (whether of Islam, Christianity or Judaism) as just another totem, in effect, then you can do it and some angels as free spirits would make sense, whilst lesser angels use the regular Spirit of Man rules. But as I say, I don't think you can successfully portray God as just another totem. None of the other totems are monotheistic. Therefore belief in them can survice confrontation or defeat by other totems / spirits, etc. A monotheistic faith cannot. Christianity would have to become a pantheistic religion again.

Just for reference, the way I shall handle it in my game, should it occur, is that Christian magicians will summon elementals. Their faith as regards God remains an unproven thing to the rest of the world. I will have Islamic sorcerors perhaps summon more interesting spirits of man. Especially at higher force, you start getting Efreet and Djinn, perhaps.

I will have Sufism adapt readily to magic use in my game. I was particularly pleased to see this backed up by the Istanbul section of Runner Havens (the first part that I read, of course).

As others have said, this works just fine if you don't try to figure out God's motives in sending those spirits. It's always possible that

1) He wants the spirit to lose, as it teaches the summoner something or otherwise moves the universe further down god's plan

2) He set up the rules of how to summon angels and then sat back and watched, or

3) Some other reasoning that a finite mind cannot comprehend but an infinite one can.

Stating your own beliefs of what God should or would do and then using them as an invalidation of God's existence is futile at best. Unless perhaps you've spoken with God and he told you that your ideas mesh with his?

Like you I just don't envision God as being some kind of totem with modifiers. I would think that most priests and prophets would be hermetic. The awkward thing is that they summon elementals. (you could always just come up with a house rule that allows them to summon a new type of spirit and not be able to summon elementals)

as i've said before, Christianity is not actually monotheistic--not in the sense you're using the term. yes, Christians worship one god, but the Bible does not deny the existance of other gods. all the Bible says is that YHWH is stronger than all other gods, which brings me to my main point:

you want Christianity to be correct, in SR--that is to say, you want things in SR to work out exactly the way the Bible says they should. if you look at the way other religions intersect with SR's game mechanics, though, you'll find that none of them are correct--they all got it wrong. i don't see any real reason to give Christianity special treatment, either by changing the rules for it or by denying it the ability to affect (and effect) magic the way all the other religions get to do.

Of course it does, it's HIS BOOK!
"Jeff the God of Biscuits"'s book says that Jeff is the "TRUE" god.
"Simon the God of Hairdoos"'s book says that Simon is the "TRUE" god.
If I was a god writing a book about myself, or having someone right a book about me, I'd be the main character and you bet I'd be the awesomest god, 'cause the main character is always awesome. It makes for a more entertaining read.

Well, funny yes, but correct, no. You see there are several major religions that don't say there is only one god even if they favour one in particular. Hinduism has numerous gods, several of which get into trouble. The religions present in Shadowrun as magical traditions - native american beliefts, voodoo loas, etc are all pantheistic. Therefore compatible with the presence of other gods / totems to a greater extent than Christianity-Islam-Judaism. (I'm just going to call these the religions of the book from here on).

There is a great deal more to Christianity than literal reading of the Old Testament. You can be pretty certain that the modern Christian religion considers there to be only one God. Even in the Old Testament, your references to other gods are usually shown as qualitatively different in nature to God. Witness all the references to idols, golden calves, statues of phillistine gods etc. The difference is emphasised and as the bible proceeds chronologically, you find that the concept of only one God becomes more and more embedded. And the New Testament (the basis of Christianity) does explicity state this, though I don't have a reference to hand. Anyway, as I said, the belief of modern Christianity does preclude other gods.

I didn't say this and it's not my meaning. This looks like it's directed at me, though. I said the two are not compatible. Operating under the processes of the Shadowrun rules, I don't think Christianity could exist as it does in the real world. At least not if you're summoning angels as part of your magic. I didn't say that you shouldn't put it in your game - do what you like. But I will say that there are problems of internal consistency where you have a monotheistic faith operating on the same level as pantheistic faiths around it (i.e. direct confrontation and varying power based on the wielder rather than according to the religion).

Islam, actually, but the same principle applies to all the religions of the book as they are closely related and share a God. You don't see any reason not to use a caricature of these religions in the same way as you use a caricature of native american beliefs because you have no participation in these religions. And so it's fine for you and your players who presumably feel the same.

It is different for me as I am involved in a religion and so I have priests summon regular old elementals and nobody has Mentor Spirit: Jesus. If I could put it in emotive terms, consider putting your girlfriend or your sister or your mother in one of your games, more or less exactly her as a character. Would it not bother you at all that she had been shot, or killed or seduced by one of your players? Do you have her running in terror from the Barghest? Even though it is just a fantasy and your girlfriend or whoever isn't actually affected by this? You still used someone you care about in a way that may feel uncomfortable. Realise that for people who do have a faith, then they may well feel the same way about bringing God or Angels into the evening's game.

It's not that it will upset or harm any spritual being, so no harm in other people playing that way, but simply that you yourself may find the scenario distasteful.

I hope I've put all that well.

hyzmarca - I'm not ignoring your argument. But if there's a big distinction between what the religion thinks God is and what God actually is, then is not the result the same - the religion is shown to be false in the setting. For the priest to say that God doesn't actually care enough for his angels not to be bashed about by a Street Samurai with an LMG, still forces the religion to be different.

You're forgetting that Christianity has at least two religious systems: Theurgy (Roman Catholicism) and Exarchs (Eastern Orthodox, generally speaking).

Both of which have the same fundamental beliefs with the same holy figures. DIfferent practices, but they recognise each other, and are recognised by outsiders, as both being Christianity. Anyway, I'm lumping Christianity, Islam and Judaism together (now I really am a heretic!) so that division you picked up on is really the least of my worries.

Who's arguing? I hate to quote myself but didn't I just say play the game how you want? My post was a direct response to mfb's query as to why someone would give a religion special treatment. I hope he's now got an answer and understands me better.

Threads spread and that's half their interest. But you'll note that I have kept the original point alive and running through my posts and shared what I think are some interesting ideas about whether a monotheistic religion could exist in the Shadowrun setting as it is written. I think it couldn't if it was tied in directly to magic or spirits for the reasons I've given earlier at length.

I think this was a good (and non-judgemental) way to express your concerns, and thank you for not falling into the trap of making this personal. Having monotheists summon elementals seems perfectly reasonable to me.

That said, doesn't it say somewhere that the appearance of the spirits summoned is often influenced by the expectations of the summoner? So just because your mage summoned a fire elemental, doesn't mean that it didn't take the appearance of a winged knight riding a beam of light down from the heavens with firey sword in hand. It also doesn't mean that the mage can't believe that it's an angel, even if he's just deluding himself.

Final thought: if some GM did treat them as angels, couldn't a GM use the argument that, though the power source (God) was infinite, the conduit for that power (the faith of the summoner) was insufficient to manifest the angel's presence in its full glory? It's not like God told the angel to show up, and man doesn't really have the power to command the angel, so whatever shows up would only be as strong, or weak, as God felt the summoner deserved...

Ultimately, this is just a game, and you should use whatever rules make you and your players the most comfortable and allow you to have the most fun. Otherwise, what's the point?

If you think I've been saying that then you've misread me. I said that if this occurs in the setting then monotheistic religions can't survive as they are in that setting. Which is what we were asked about originally, i.e. how the people in the setting would view religion post awakening.

Well you've condensed about eight paragraphs of mine into two lines you bastard, but yes.

*K. goes off to practice being concise.*

Indeed. That would be an argument that Christians or others would come up with. But as I said earlier in response to your posts, I think it asks too much of the religion. It is one thing to have God not appear to have helped you. It is quite another for Him to say "I'll help you... nah, I was just kidding,"

Even if the very devout justify things with such an argument, I think when the image of the F8 City Spirit squashing the angel's head like a grape beneath its concrete foot echoes round the trid stations of the World, it isn't going to do much for recruitment. Post-awakening, when so many people are so scared and have been through goblinisation, VITAS, etc. etc. Have you any idea how traumatic it would be to a religious person to see an angel being shot? The backlash would be terrifying.

Try to play Christianity or Islam or Judaism under Shadowrun rules and it would very quickly collapse. There would be a remnant form of it, which ultimately incorporated pantheistic elements into it. But it wouldn't be the same religion anymore.

I think you can choose how to handle it in your setting. Either have the monotheists summoning regular spirits and attributing their magic to skill and study, as I will. Or modify the religion so it is internally consistant with the Shadowrun setting.

yes, it is true that people tend to interpret the Bible to suit their beliefs, the way modern Christians do re: the existence of other gods. whether their interpretation of what the Bible says is correct or not doesn't alter the fact that the Bible can be read as alluding to the existence of gods other than YHWH.

as i said earlier, it's perfectly fine with me if you change things in your own game, such that it doesn't offend anyone at your gaming table--you have my full permission to prosecute your games as you see fit!

that said, i still maintain that there's nothing in the Bible that makes it and SR's magic system mutually exclusive. i will allow that current Christian thought is incompatible, but the text itself holds nothing that can't be worked around.

I think we have to allow the Christians to decide what Christianity is. I'm talking about Christianity as is.

hyzmaca - believe me, I am very aware of the accumulated mythology around angels. What you are coming up with is the theological argument that a desperate believer in the SR universe would come up with to justify the demonstrated weakness of God. And as I said in my last post - it's not going to do much to shore up Christianity if it's operating under the rules of the Shadowrun universe. Few people will derive much reassurance from early catholic theories about the hierarchy of angels in the face of God's demonstrated weakness.

I think I've made my case as clearly as I can. Your arguments to me do not sound as though they would convince people who had witnessed the aforementioned defeat of God's agents or power. And if they do not, then Christianity could not survive as it is in the Shadowrun universe.

Regarding your exodus example, it is recorded in the bible that God hardened the pharoah's heart. It's not as though the pharoah went out there and lifted the darkness with counterspelling which is what we're talking about here. And as pointed out, modern Christianity is not based on the Old Testament. You don't get to decide what Christianity is, I'm afraid. The majority of Christians do and it's that view of religion that I base my explanation on. My point has been that Christianity as is, is not compatible with working under the Shadowrun ruleset. If you wish to redefine Christianity to make it fit, then you have made my point for me.

I think I'm going to drop this subject now. I'm starting to feel that people are lighting the first kindlings of a flame war here. I'm interested in people understanding my point. Agreement is not required. I think I've achieved that for the majority of readers so I'm done.

-K. out.

no we don't--not any more than we need to allow Aesir-worshippers to decide what Aesir worship is in SR. besides, allowing modern Christians to define Christianity would mean that the first-century church couldn't be considered Christian. Christianity is rooted in the Bible, meaning that anything which springs from the Bible can basically be considered Christian.

Christianity has survived and thrived without any proven miracles at all for two millennia, minus some change. i don't think seeing an angel get its ass kicked is going to kill it, or even change it significantly--certainly no more so than the rest of the Awakening did. people believe what they are going to believe, regardless of the evidence they are presented with.

*bangs head*

Yes you do have to allow the Christians to decide if we're talking about how Christians would react to the Awakening. If you want to say that Christians in your setting have different beliefs than they do in the real world, then fine. But you've withdrawn any common ground for the discussion. I am, and have been all the way through this, been discussing religious belief as it actually is.

And my point has been that religious belief as it is, is not compatible with putting the main monotheistic faiths subject to Shadowrun rules, If you're changing the beliefs in order to make it fit, then you have just made my point.

-K.

what you're banging your head against is the idea that there is a single type of Christianity out there. that's not true, and hasn't been for two thousand years. it certainly won't be true in 2070.

They do tend to have in common a belief that God is omnipotent which is all that I have required for what I've been saying.

In your fractionalised Christianity, do you find many that don't?

Anyhow - that's me done. You know what I'm saying and I'm sure everyone else does by now. Do what you like in your game. I hope I've offered some interesting points to everyone about the impact summoning "angels" as spirits and other divine magic, would have on the religion itself.

Asking God nicely to intervene on your behalf is okay, but trying to force him to do so (such as by putting yourself in deadly danger to show everyone how God will protect you) is a sin.

Tell that the the hermetic clergyman that just summoned something that looks like an angel, walks like an angel, and quacks like an angel.

The thing is, most people don't need a religion to tell them to be a decent human being.

Religion just uses the traditional "carrot and stick" method to try and make you follow the rules. Today, we have the government and our families and friends to do that, without all the mythology.

I think the good things that come from religion could come without it easily, while some of the really bad things (wars, persecution, ect) come specifically because someone uses their religion as an excuse for terrible behavior. Without that excuse, many of these atrocities could have been avoided.