The metaplanes rock.

Where to begin??

I don't know if there is a God, but if it gives you Peace and Hope, then so be it.
Do what you will, believe what you will, but harm none because of it.

Yes Atheism and religion will exist until the end of man.

Godlike beings of great power may appear one day, preform miracles, unravel the mysteries of the universe, show some all that was and all that will be, as well as take believers to a paradise. Still people will say there is no such things as God.

The world may fall into great suffering, and others will point to Revelations where it says God will give the Devil free reign upon the Earth for several years. They will point to the mention of the mark of the beast upon the head and hand of man, and claim that this refers to Com-links and RFID tags.
The bible says that the Devil will come in as a thief in the night, and point to all the evils that mankind has become accustomed to.

This is an interesting, but touchy subject, so let us all try our best not to upset or be upset by what may be a callous statement. Says the pot to the kettle.

I think atheists and religious people will continue to argue. But magic complicates things, because people will argue about whether magic itself is divine or not. And that can be interesting, because you can have people with the same religious beliefs (or at least belonging to the same religion) arguing about magic.

Some Christians will consider magic to be an ability like being a good painter or a gifted athlete. Sure, it's a gift meant to be used for good like any other, but just as artists and athletes can abuse their gifts, you can have people misuse magic. But the bad person and the good Christian are still casting the same manabolt. Other Christians will consider their own magical abilities divine, and consider other magical beliefs to be of the devil. So now you can have conflict between Christians who will each find the others' views of magic to be heretical, or even blasphemous.


Monotheistic religions shouldn't be the only ones asking these questions, though. One thing that I found to be almost insultingly oversimplified, was that any religion that incorporated magic in its worship was supposed to automatically incorporate magic into their belief system. Never mind that "magic" as practiced by, say, a modern-day wiccan or neo-pagan is probably not anything like SR magic!

I mean, picture yourself as, say, a wiccan. You have devoted yourself to your beliefs and their practice, and are very knowledgeable about your faith. On the other hand, you know a girl, Suzie, who is a babbling, trend-following, ignorant poser. The awakening hits, and you're pretty much the same, but suddenly insipid little Suzie starts throwing around SR-type "magic". Would you automatically associate this new "magic" with your religion? Or would you be just as likely to consider it a completely separate thing?


Atheists can do some soul-searching, too. It might be fun to play an atheist who awakens as a shaman, and tries to reconcile his unbelief with his increasingly ecclesiastical visions and encounters with his Totem.

Almost nothing can convince a devoted anything that their beliefs are untrue. It's the guys that aren't hardcore fundamentalists that have the enjoyable-to-portay inner doubts and fears about a restructured belief system.

I remember someone's particular 'schtick' about God in Shadowrun.

You see, God was neither loving nor Almighty. He was real, and was a very powerful Spirit who long ago started this Religion thing. Worshippers duped into believing whatever he could get them to believe prayed, and through their inadvertant rituals (prayer) 'donated' their Karma to him.

It's really a good schtick. People persuaded to give up their Karma on false pretenses still give up karma. That would be a real monkey wrench in everyone's works, eh?

Nah, because you couldn't prove it unless the spirit admitted it, and why would he stop the karma train? Of course, he's already at Force 18,000 with 48,000 spirit energy by now, but he's got to compete with the other spirits that did similar things, including his supposed son Jesus, whose just another spirit riding the faith train to gluttsville.

edit: See, it doesn't really matter what actually happened, all that matters are the points people try to make while defending their own personal corner or religious theory.

The Bible is part historical chronical, part folklore, and part mythology couched in such a way that contempories of the authors could understand and relate to it. If you ignore the miracles, the scientificly incorrect assumptions that were taken as true by individuals back then, the mythology,the folklore, and all references to "God" it is somewhat acurate. Exact words spoken by exact individuals may have been different and some individuals may have been made up, but in a broad sense many of the events did happen. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt and they did wander in the desert for some unspecified long period of time. 40 years can't be considered accurate because it was shorthand for 'some long period of time' commonly used in ancient folktales. 40, 7, 3, and 12 can never be taken literally in these stories due to the significance of these numbers in ancient literature.


I prefer to think that Gods in SR are Free Spirits who have aligned themselves with a human ideal in a way that allows them to draw power from it, hence the Passions, Idols, and Totems. Of course, in my Abrahamic cosmology Lucifer is the good guy who champions human independance and free will. He is classified as a Fallen Angel but is a God due to his alignment with the Firebringer, The Adversary, and the Dark King.

Some recent translations went right back to the original texts ... like the amplified and I think the NAS.

As for the interpretation of God being a free spirit, it does work well within the mechanics of SR. I think the passions are just a complete waste of text and whatever brainpower people put into them. The Passion/GD/IE metaplots are just big puddles of barf on the shadowrun sidewalk. It may work in Earthdawn but didn't work at all for shadowrun.

Their is no Passions Metaplot. One Passion appeared exactly once in one short story. Passions in general were mentioned in passing in exactly one Shadowtalk post in exactly one setting book.

The Passions are old Gods, dead and dying. They have been usurped by a Pantheon of Totems and Idols. The Gods are dead. Long live the Gods.

Hmmmmm...

God (as interpreted as a Free Spirit) Vs. Lofwyr the Dragon.


.... I'd back the Greater Dragon. If only to gloat when we march triumphantly through Rome, under the Arch of Tidus, and get to tell the Pope that we pwned his God.

I know about her! She Who Walks Upon The Waters, right?

That's why I was so annoyed when Dan Brown called God's consort "Shekina" in The Da Vinci Code. That's the name of the manifestation of God's spirit, as Dan would know if he weren't such an ignorant sillyhead.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I got to read some of Paradise Lost for English. From what I read in it, Satan struck me as being very stupidly stubborn and in denial. "Oh, I'm not sorry I was cast out of the magnificent glory that was Heaven. I don't ache with every fiber of my being to experience its indescribable joys again. No sir, not me. Excuse me, I've got something in my eye."

Then again, William Blake did comment that Milton wrote of hell while he was free and of heaven while he was imprisoned.

Danger! Derailment flamewar alert! Fleeeeeee!

Note to those not reading Platinum's spoiler: it wasn't a flame, just statements that I've seen start flame wars in the past.

edit: Platinum, if you want to chat, PM me.

I tried to put it in a well labelled spoiler tag.... and not flame anyone but explain why I would personally would fall into the category mentioned by mfb. hopefully ... no one will be offended by what I said, but gain insight into why some people act certain ways.

James... not sure what you wanted to chat about.... but if you have a topic ... I am open to pm's as well.

*Chuckles* Aye, I have to agree with James on this one, its time to break out the fire retardents... *winks*

I didn't mean that you were trying to upset anyone or flame them, but when statements like that are made they tend to incite others to flames, no matter how diplomatically they're presented.

i can see Platinum's point. having grown up in a church and attended a Christian college, though, i saw a lot of people who spent--i think--way too much time arguing about whether the world is 6,000 or 8,000 years old, and way too little time preaching and practicing the actual tenants of the faith, y'know?

which i doubt will change by 206x. there are parts of Revelations and... maybe Daniel, i think, that could be construed to be talking about the Awakening.

I will agree with that. Many times I get asked about aliens and dinosaurs and the bible.

All I can say is that I really don't know. And to me ... it really doesn't matter to me.

One thing that I have found is that some people read what they want to read.

Glad to see there haven't been any flames. And yes,... there are times that my faith is blind.

meh. if faith isn't blind, it isn't faith.

After all, it's hard to fleece people who think for themselves of their (pick as many as you can get away with) gold/time/blood/crops/goods/karma.

Eh? both the CAWS and the Jackhammer seem 'practical' and iirc a very small production run of Remington 1100s (?) was supposedly done for the Vietnam war.

Just curious, which religion/non-religion do you think would gain the most from the awakening? myself ... I was thinking Pagans then Voodoo.

I would guess that the 'deregulated' religions would benefit the most. Centralized religions like the RCC will have to take a long time to come up with their officical positions first.

Native American shamanism. they got the most air time, at any rate... even if SR magic bears only a faint resemblance to actual NA beliefs.

Witches of whatever name/culture you wish to think of, and beliefs like voudoun/santeria/etc. (the ones that include Catholic beliefs), but even they would be after the Indians.

But like I said in my earlier post, I think it's a bit simplistic to assume that just because a religion uses magic, it will automatically associate their religious practices with SR-style magic. Now, magic being fueled by belief, and manifesting in a way consistent with those beliefs, would certainly make it easier for many to accept - but I still think there should be some wiccans, voodoo practicioners, etc. who would be skeptical about magic being related to their faith.

Not to mention that other people/beliefs would be using the same "magic". In a way, religions like voodoo or fundie Chrisitians would have the easiest time with that, since they already include "evil" magic in their belief systems.


On the subject of the immaculate conception, that is part of Catholic belief, not shared by Protestants. The virgin birth/divinity of Christ is central to the Christian faith, though, for both Catholics and Protestants, including the mainstream as well as the fundies.

You know, I think the ultimate truth of Shadowrun is that athiest mages who summon up spirits in the shape of nymphs and dryads, and catholic mages who summon up spirits in the shape of avenging angels... They both have one important thing in common.

No, it's not "they're the same stats, just different skins", though that is true.

It's that they both die equally you when you unload a fully automatic shotgun in their faces. Now shut the fuck up and get on with the Run.

The Atheists defence:

None needed since the THEISTS has to proof the existence. But if you insist:

+ The effects of spell magic are the same no matter what source the Mage claims
+ Spirits are also blending into one another
+ Good, sane Atheists can do magic
+ Magic IS genetic (That is IIRC proven in SR, they are still searching the Genes)
+ Self-limitating mages (Psi) are a proven fact

=> Magic works without a god. All differences are due to self-limitations and delusions. Therefor everyone that believes his power comes from a non-existing higher being is delusional and should take his medizin. For extreme cases (aka Black Magic) we recommend a fast-acting copper-lead compound

Wow, it kinda bothers me that the "Atheists [sic] defence" is based on the "realities" of a fictional game world.

Anyway, I'm posting a summary of the main arguments for and against the existence of God, just to add some fuel to the flames.

Touché.

BTW, I'm amazed that this thread this thread has progressed this far without getting out of hand. I salute you all.

Back to the question of religions gaining the most..

Almost definately pagans (meaning Wiccans and Witches, Asatru, Druids, Shamans, those practicing Voodoo, and anyone following a path which involves the worship or veneration of ancestors).

Basically, the religions that practice, support, or include a basic framework for the use of personal power, as opposed to external power accessed solely through prayers to a divine being, gain the most. I don't know enough about most religions to say.

So one day God is getting bored. He doesn't like the fact that so many people don't worship him so he decides to go down to Earth and Materialize on the Stage at an Atheist's convention. He knocks the highly-paid guest speaker away from the podium and declare into the microphone. "I am the LORD your God, dumbasses. Bow and worship me." An Atheist in the front row stands up and challanges Him. "If you're God then prove it." God replies, "Why don't I prove that my foot is stuck up your ass."

Many people suggest that the burden of proof should be on God to prove his existance. The big problem is that God can't prove his existance. In order for God to do so he would have to prove that he isn't the infinite number of other things that he could be. Since human perceptions are limited we cannot comprehend infinity. So, if God does exist there is no way we would ever know without guessing.

Which is why diehard Atheists are about as insane as religious fundamentalists.

Within the context of the SR setting there is corroborating evidence for the existence of God (read the Christian/Islamic/Judaic one).

My logic is that magicians are now having visions of totem animals, voodoo loas, etc. etc. There is evidence for all of these that they are shaped, at least partially, by human beliefs. Example evidence are things like urban Gator shamans having their totem associated with the sewers (SR2) and other instances, which shows totemic behaviour based on popular myth / belief rather than reality; different figures having mutually incompatible religious frameworks, e.g. certain amerindian totems being involved in creation myths that cannot coincide with totems in other parts of the world,etc. which indicates that the belief structure is local; and that many of these totems / beings are relatively recent in human culture. E.g. the shaman may have a belief in creator figure X but X didn't occur in human culture until late on in human development, suggesting a cultural origin for the entity rather than existing a priori.

Even if totems et al. do not originate from human belief, they've certainly shown a willingness to adapt to it.

How does this all help make the case for God? Well in all the cannon material I've read (though I could be proved wrong), I don't recall a Christian mage summoning a spirit in the form of an angel. I don't recall any Christian mages going to the "Heaven" metaplane to commune with God or having Gabriel as a mentor spirit. The very absence of Christian beliefs manifesting in this way suggests something is very seriously up with this. I.e. there must be some force preventing it. I would propose that this is God.

You could always say that these "angels" or "God" are merely refusing to show themselves but are similar in nature to other totems, spirits etc. But even that would require a radical explanation to explain the big difference in behaviour.

-K.

p.s. Austere - I found your comment earlier quite amusing and insightful so I've sigged you. Hope you don't mind. To paraphrase the Bene Gesserit - "Fear is the joke killer."