Snipers get talked about on this board alot as dangerous ubercharacters. I'd like to inject a dose of reality into the sniper.

First, real world sniper rifles usually don't do more damage than assault rifles, nor do they have magical armor piercing qualities. Most sniper rifles - note I do not say antimaterial rifles, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same rounds used in assault rifles. The advantage of the sniper rifle is its pinpoint accuracy and long reach. Not specifically relevant to SR, but I had to get it off my chest.

Second, a skilled sniper firing from a concealed position is very dangerous. But that's a lot easier said than done. First, you have to know where your target is going to be, and when. Then, you have to have access to a good shooting position at the target time. You have to do all this carrying a large weapon and without anyone noticing you, whether that's your target, local law enforcement, or the neighbors. Then you have to get away after the target is eliminated.

Third, most targets know snipers exist. They will deliberately take steps to avoid the danger. Like taking virtual meetings. Or meeting face-to-face in an airport terminal or in front of the city courthouse, or in a subway station somewhere where the physical security is free or the sightlines don't work.

It's not just a matter of damage codes.

Everything is a matter of damage codes.

You don't need a sightline when you can still drop a target through a wall. Thermal Imaging makes sniping fun!

Have you played Shadowrun yet?

A less flippant answer would make use of imaging cameras combined with smartgun links and a tracking system.

Since I'm always in favor of flippant, and short on time, I'll leave that for someone else to make....

What are the common real world sniper calibers?

I use 30'06 which i think is .762 my budy has a sweet 7mm. These are common hunting rifles but do millitary snipers use them?
I'm pretty sure .308 is a common sniper calibur but I'm not aware of any "assault rifles" in the .308.

BTW, isnt damage a factor of both caliber and velocity? I think a kalishnikov(sp?) uses the same slug as my rifle but i don't think they use the same cartridge and i know they don't have the same range or tragectory. So, for shadowrun purposes couldn't you have two weapons with the same calibur but different damage codes and/ or AP values?

As far as game play I agree that the sniper isn't "Uber" because a sniper is realy two characters; one to do legwork and soak up dammage while the sniper sets up for the shot. It's a good point. in the future i plan to accessoriez all my rifles with smartlink, image scopes, and an Ork hacker.

I don't go for the robocop thermal either.

You can't see thru walls with thermal.
I will allow someone to use a remote camera tied into their Commlink, to fire their weapon at the target, with a penalty, but not as much as blind fire. Of course, they do not get any benefit of their smartlink when they make that shot.

I'd say most people here try and dissuade people from playing snipers in SR. From my experience they're almost never where the action is, and usually are played as not-team-players/lone-wolfs which is boring to the rest of the team. They're dangerous by the numbers because of their high skill and high damage code, but by no means urbercharacters.

That being said, my understanding is that real sniping is done in pairs and is a very team work oriented process, but for it to be useful, you'd need a full military for intellience and support. My understanding is that .223 and .308 are the most common calibers for sniper rifles, using high quality match cartridges and high quality rifles. I'm sure austere emancipator or raygun will have volumes of work to expand on what I've said, but as a general rule, I think what I've said holds true. It's just high quality hunting rifles and high quality bullets, with a big scope.

On thermal imaging, you can't even use it to look through windows.

Mages get talked about on this board alot as dangerous ubercharacters. I'd like to inject a dose of reality into the Mage.

First, real world Mage spells usually don't do more damage than real worldspells, nor do they have magical armor piercing qualities. Most Mage spells - note I do not say antimaterial spells, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same elemental effectsused in assault spells. The advantage of the Mage spell is its pinpoint accuracy and long reach. Not specifically relevant to SR, but I had to get it off my chest.

Second, a skilled Mage casting from a concealed position is very dangerous. But that's a lot easier said than done. First, you have to know where your target is going to be, and when. Then, you have to have access to a good casting position at the target time. You have to do all this carrying a large aura and without anyone noticing you, whether that's your target, local law enforcement, or the neighbors. Then you have to get away after the target is eliminated.

Third, most targets know Mages exist. They will deliberately take steps to avoid the danger. Like taking virtual meetings. Or meeting face-to-face in an airport terminal or in front of the city courthouse, or in a subway station somewhere where the physical security is free or the sightlines don't work.

It's not just a matter of damage codes.

kzt:

Thanks for the information regarding the .308. Do victims of .308 wounds really die? I'll remember that when I use my SOCOM II next time.

Ruling out anti-material rifles, as Zen Shooter01 did in the OP, the most common sniper rifle caliber in the Western world is the 7.62x51mm NATO(/.308 Winchester), with .338 Lapua and .300 Winchester Magnum and trailing quite a ways behind. All firearms officially termed "sniper rifles" in the US military are, I believe, chambered in at least .308 Winchester -- the accurized 5.56x45mm rifles with telescopic sights are called "designated marksman rifles" or similar, meant for a different role from actual sniper rifles. Generally speaking, if one says "sniper rifle", the image invoked tends to be of a rifle in a caliber from 7.62x51mm to .338 Lapua. There is reason to believe this range will crawl upwards in the Shadowrun world, as law enforcement organizations and militaries would most likely go from 7.62x51mm to .338 Lapua as soon as the threat of trolls became real.

Assault rifles are chambered for rounds significantly less powerful then 7.62x51mm. The Western assault rifle standard, the 5.56x45mm NATO, and the Soviet standards, the older 7.62x39mm (of AK-47 fame) and the newer 5.45x39mm, range from around 1100 to 1500 ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle when fired out of full size assault rifles, whereas common 7.62x51mm loads average around 2400-2800 ft-lbs. The .300 Winchester Magnum is much heftier, in the 3500-3800 ft-lbs range, while the .338 Lapua can be loaded hot enough to generate about 5000 ft-lbs.

Kinetic energy in and of itself is not necessarily a useful indicator of what kind of damage to tissues or penetration of armor you can expect of a particular loading (a specific bullet with a specific amount of a particular type of propellant, etc.), but it does indicate the terminal effect potential the caliber has, especially when comparisons are done between relatively similar projectiles -- in this case high velocity rifle rounds.

In other words, with the right ammunition, common sniper rifle calibers will outperform common assault rifle calibers in armor penetration and tissue damage by a large margin. This is also pretty obvious when comparing the kind of wound cavity expected from a .223 Remington JSP to one from a .308 Winchester SP, and from the fact that the M995 5.56x45mm armor piercing round fired from an M16 assault rifle penetrates 6mm of armor steel whereas the M993 7.62x51mm AP round from an M240 GPMG penetrates 12mm of armor steel. At the upper end of the sniper rifle caliber scale, a .338 Lapua AP round will penetrate 20mm of armor steel, or with deforming ammunition will completely fuck up an adult human torso.

The fact that they're firing more energetic projectiles is not why they're dangerous, of course. A shotgun can be just as deadly at close range, or you could always use a 7.62x51m battle rifle. Sniper rifles aren't chambered for powerful cartridges just to more completely destroy human targets either -- .338 Lapua sniper rifles didn't increase in popularity because people thought 7.62x51mm wasn't enough for killing humans, but because the faster, heavier bullets allow accurate, effective fire at longer ranges. I'm definitely with the thread starter on the relatively limited useof snipers: they are very good at one thing, but that one thing is often far from the optimal solution to a problem.

Generally speaking the well informed party sniper is scary. Then the team finds themselves going up against someone that knows about him and has a sniper or two of their own. When the team radios for sniper support all they get is static.

Glass blocks thermal imaging too.
A sniper is most dangerious because they can easily take numerious take aim actions before making a called shot to add 4 to the DV of the weapon.

God bless you, DireRadiant.

If there's anyone out there who looks at SR as a mirror for RL, they need to get their heads checked. Now then, on with the sniper info.

Sniping can be made more difficult/interesting by the use of some of the less obvious rules that might apply.

For example, shooting someone in cold blood, whom you can see clearly through a telescopic sight, might well call for a Composure Check. Not a lot of stereotypical "sniper" characters will max out the Willpower and Charisma needed to reliably pass this.

Climbing into a high perch could obviously call for a Climb skill check.

Snipers are often exposed to the elements for long period of time, which might call for a Willpower + Survival check.

Camouflage (of use to snipers), is actually a specialization of the disguise skill. Setting up that nigh-undetectable spider hole calls for a skills most characters never take.

Sniping calls for acute powers of observation. Fail that Perception check to see your target and you might as well have stayed home.

While there aren't rules for endurance, per se, sniping would call for remaining in a potentially uncomfortable position for long periods of time. I suppose a Body + Willpower roll could settle this, with some negative consequences for failure.

There's always the fun possibility of a counter-sniper out there. This can set up a really tense, role playing heavy duel, or it can just be a convenient way to get rid of an inconvenient character.

Yeah, regarding that.

When you ground a fictional universe in reality, it's an improvement. Verisimilitude. Willing suspension of disbelief. Et cetera.

Also, the point of my post was to give GMs some counter-sniper strategies to keep PC snipers from trampling on game balance.

I am, in fact, aware that SR does not and will never model the real world perfectly. But a little nudge in the direction is desirable.

I am not and will probably never be a millionaire, but if I saw an opportunity to earn $500, I'd take it.

Zen Shooter01,

dude i wasn't mocking you, if the comparison between RP and RL wasn't important, i wouldn't be reading this thread and no one would have posted. Ya gotta admit that DireRadiant is fukin funny.

What are you talking about? Dumpshockers don't make jokes, the only two things they know how to do are arguing and arguing fervently!

now that's just not true, and GOD WILL SMITE YOU FOR SAYING IT!

GM > And a meteor falls out of the sky and kills your party

Player > Ok, my Shield of Impact™ takes the hit and I survive unscathed

GM > How many charges does it still have?

Player > Um... I think 19

GM > 20 more meteors fall from the sky, directly on you...

Hijacking the thread, here...

Guesses as to the eventual SR4 stats of the Barrett?

I agree with Dire Radiant.

We need some more real life mages on this board so that they can weigh in like the real world soldiers/cops/enthusiasts/wannabes.

Just some random thoughts...

Uber? No way. A tool like anyother. I'd be far more worried about cybermonkeymeat than snipers.

You know nobody's mentioned good old fear. Snipers are great at destroying morale and generally making people paranoid. Great for slowing advances.

Oh when a snipers hide has been blown they can generally kiss their ass goodbye, they tend to operate far from support. Spirits and high explosive rockets tend to show up soon after you've been made.

Hmmm you know the most dangerous opponent my team ever faced was a magical sniper. Invised and laying on a nearby roof. I still kick myself for not doing a spirit sweep of the area before we did that op.

My two

As far as Barrett stats, just look under "assault cannon". For many editions, what the game calls assault cannons have most closely matched antimaterial rifles in their performance. Take a look at the real life Barrett XM-109.

I was thinking specifically of my .308 Win. SOCOM II, which is a CQB semiauto, when I said that sniper rifles aren't that much more powerful than assault rifles. In spite of Ray and Austere's input, I still doubt that the sizeable difference in the damage codes between assault rifles and sniper rifles in SR is justified. Consider that the rules say that the difference in damage between an Ares Alpha assault rifle and a Predator heavy pistol is only +1 DV; we might say then that +1 DV is roughly the difference between a 10mm handgun cartridge and .223 Remington.

But the difference between the Alpha Assault rifle and the SM-4 sniper rifle is +2 DV, -2 AP. So the difference between .223 Remington and the sniper rifle round is, according to canon, HUGE.

That could be explained with the .338 Lapua becoming the most common sniper rifle caliber -- and it would no doubt see a huge surge in popularity post-4/30/2021.

How many threads will it take before people realize that if they want realistic guns in an RPG Shadowrun isn't the place to look for them?

You can't find realistic guns in any RPG I'm aware of. That doesn't make talking about realistic guns in RPGs pointless.

No, but it makes talking about realistic guns in Shadowrun pointless unless you're proposing an entirely new combat system.

Right. There's absolutely no way you can ever improve on anything combat-related in the game without completely rewriting everything. Good to know.

Actually, no. A rewritten equipment list would go a long way to improving the realism of SR fiirearms, with almost no change at all to the combat rules. I was tinkering with one, but decided to wait until Arsenal came out.