If the group decides they want the mega-negotiating adept, sure, go ahead. You just have to get him in the door -- through those blast doors. (Sorry, no speakerphones available.)

Exactly my point too, but Talia spazzed when I joked that no one would pay big money to assassinate a "hermit recluse dragon no one has ever heard of", but she never said how a dragon who doesn't come out, never talks to anyone, and doesn't do anything at all but hide in his hole is a VIP by any stretch of the imagination.

S P A Z Z I N G

(just for you, Buster!)

Claim was made, in the other linked thread, that a dragon was easily killable. Thus I'm giving a dragon here, for the killing -- if you can. Basically, I'm putting that claim to the test.

There's been some suggestion that neither dragon nor runner would wish to fight on other than their own terms: ie. the importance of tactics. There's also been people who've argued repeatedly that the killing is so straightforward and obvious that it really shouldn't have to be played out in actual combat turns.

Find whatever motivation you like. Who knows: maybe you want its hide for material components? And since when did a lack of specific motivation for some collateral killing stop a group of runners anyway? (Oh wait ... is that only when the runners know that what they're killing can't really hurt them?)

On a slightly more serious note:

Team consists of five Initiate Magicians with very good Summoning, Binding and Counterspelling. Invoking and Shielding are a must. Other than that just try to make them overall good magicians. Preferably Elves of any tradition that uses Charisma for Drain and has access to Spirits of Man. Most of the mages should have the Shape Earth and Astral Static spells. Plus the usual stuff.

The sixth team member is a rigger, who spent some time as an Army Engineer in a military of your choice. He will bring a small army of drones including stuff like the Kodiak and maybe some other heavy duty construction drones.

The mages summon/bind all the spirits they can. The dragon might be able to get bigger spirits but we'll have more.

The rigger brings combat drones, the aforementioned engineering drones and a couple of jammers just in case the dragon decides to call for help on his cellphone.

I'm assuming that getting to the door of the lair isn't a significant problem. From the general gist of the comments so far Talia seems to want to make problems for us inside the lair, not fifty miles away. Heck, we might just be the Pizza Delivery guys for all the dragon knows!

So we reach the dragons door, jam any com to the outside world (not that it seems to have any) and use our engineering drones to start dumping a couple of tons of cement on top of the reinforced doors.

Now we have all the time in the world to do our thing. The Dragon can't get out and can't call out. It can try to get out astrally, sure. But no matter how high his Charisma might be he won't have more spirits on call than our five elven mages. If he tries an astral breakout our side has the advantages of numbers and metamagic (particularly Shielding and Invoking, possibly others). If things get bad for us--doubtful, IMHO--we can simply fall back on Astral Static, counterspelling and Magical Guard (if available). Our mages can also cross-heal if any one of them gets badly hit.

Given all this I'll assume that we can contain any astral breakouts. Which means that the dragon is totally isolated.

Now our rigger/engineer takes his time and drills some holes into the lair. I don't care if ti takes six months, the dragon ain't going nowhere! With a nice little hole we can then send in whatever we want: Seven-7, napalm, olive oil, cyanide, Polonium, foam explosive. Eventually we will find something the Dragon can't protect against and it will die. Eventually it'll run out of something. Air, food, water, ritual materials to bind more spirits, whatever and we will kill it.

***

AFAIK the only "rule" of this thought experiment I've broken is the 24h rule. I did it on purpose. After all if this dragon never gets out anyway so we can0t hit him far away from his lair, why shouldn't we take advantage of it? And it's not like anyone is going to miss him...

On another note: You will forgive me Talia but this hole exercise is skewed. Why should the runners be dumb enough to go into the lair after it? Most assassinations (whether of Dragons or humans) will take advantages of the mark's vulnerabilities. This dragon has none. It doesn't ever leave, no one ever enters, nothing, not even email apparently ever gets in. Where does it get food?

Personally I feel that a better test on the "killability" of dragons in SR4 would be to have the runners more or less "stumble" upon the dragon. They're out doing something else (so they're loaded for bear but not "loaded for Dragon") when they bump into it and someone starts shooting/manabolting. Then we see if a "normal" team of runners can kill a Dragon or not.

***

I also want to add that I think that the canonic stats on dragons are weak. Even more so for Great Dragons. I fail to see how Ghostwalker could conquer a city against a modern military (much less six!) even if he is a grade twenty initiate and has every metamagic and spell in the books. Without some GM handwaving and stuff I just don't think the numbers add up. If Fanpro (now Catalyst) wants Dragons to be so big and scary they should give them better numbers or else none at all. As has been said before:

I wish great dragons were not statted either. I wish many things wrt SR4. Most of my wishes are not going to come true.

I agree with the bit about Hualpa, he had company of a bunch of other dragons (including two other Greats) and a whole rebel army but from what I recall about Tehran Aden did it all by him/herself too. I don't remember any mentions of an army helping out.

But Ghostwalker, well, that's just dumb.

everything else, I can probably live with.

Actually, Aden probably didn't do it completely on his own.

In the background, never visible in the city proper, was the way of neutralising the military forces -- we know how many methods exist for that, many of which don't even involve combat! One of the simplest ways, in this case, might simply have been to get a mercenary force to decoy the troops elsewhere.

What's left is only citizenry with nothing more potent than SMGs. Great dragons shrug those off.

Ok for the super face. Dragons typically use someone else to communicate with the outside world. The whole dragonspeech problem.

So your awsome faciness would get lost in the translation.

"Hey boss this elf says that you should go outside and take a nap. I think it's a really good idea. I'd like to join you if that's OK."

(dragon summons a spirit of man to slap their lacky upside the head)


---------------

What's this ghostwalker crap? I didn't get the actual book, but when I got up to speed on the SR4 timeline it make it look like the dragon went on a little rampage, than it met with the draco foundation, and then it got voted in by denver to lead the place. So I thought it was more of a mater that the dragon was a good face or had really good connections (or was actually big D whatever).

They had it fight off armies?

-----------------------------------------

As for the runners killing the dragon in straight up combat that should be pretty easy. Just have the classic infinite open plain put the dragon in the middle and put the runners elsewhere, put the spirits "on call" roll for initiative.

The dragons first move will could drop one of the runners (or I guess bring in spirits). But if they're fanned out beyond AOE range the other five will be standing. Unless there is some funky evasion thing I don't know about there are a whole range of builds that are capable of rapidly killing off the dragon. Such as the earlier posted ones.
--------------------------------------

Oh and on mystic armor. The game designers made a poor choice when it came to naming it. They used the same term for a critter power and an adept power that are different.

This is what the dragon has

Mystic Armor
Type: M • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Critters with Mystic Armor have natural protection
from astral attacks. Apply the critter’s Mystic Armor rating
against any astral attacks that strike it. Some critters may also
have hardened Mystic Armor (if they also have the Hardened
Armor power).

Aden also trashed Tehran fairly early on in the awakening, iirc.

so basically, you're looking at, say, 50-60 years difference in the technology level, which means that the dragon can just splatter things a lot easier, and attacks would be a lot more likely to just bounce off.

I'd rules that kinesics doesn't work on a dragon. The body language gulf is too wide.

Again if the superface has to get into dragonspeech it's back to the moot point since once you have the dragon in your sights there are lots of ways to take it down.

The primary issue is getting into combat with the thing with enough people simultaniously that you still have a char or two who can kill it after it's initial attack.

On the explosives. I'd actually think that a surface detonation would probably result in a collapse of the early parts of the cave. Granted now you may have sealed it in. But the reinforcements thing works against you now. So the multi bulldog thing isn't going to work for you. As every time you make a blast hole it would just get filled in. And even a megablast through rock wouldn't be that impressive. Even if you got the double value and half armor mods for the explosive you'd still have ~1800 DV losing maybe 7DV per 10CM so 72 would be lost per meter. So your blast would only affect things 30 meters down.

You'd have to rely on there not being enough stuff between you and the dragon to prevent an initial blast from killing it directly on the first go. Which could work, but as you mentioned that requires getting things set up without so much as a single spirit getting one electrical zap at your stuff before you're done setting it all up.

Remember that dragons can fly, so expect to have to be able to get to the top of really tall vertical shafts with sheer walls. Or maybe even walls covered in a waterfall of acid, monowire, or something else you don't want to climb on.

Flight is pretty easy to get, but if you forget you're stuck at the bottom of a tunnel while some magesight goggles blast you into oblivion.

Actually OP could you say what the entrance to the lair is like? I've been assuming a cliff or at least up on a mountain, others are assuming it's on the ground. Still others assume they can get to the entrance without impediment.

Personally I would think the approach would be a dangeours time. Because you're dealing with something that could easily have whipped up a force 12 unbound spirit and napped off the stun before the party arrived. Since many spirit attacks are LOS it means that it could be anywhere outside, possibly some distance from the lair, possibly waiting to be called into attack. There is a huge potential for a surprise attack from this thing. Which could trash a vehicle or PC on the first hit.

Well remember that with "Shape Anything" (Or a few more of the Canon "Shape X" Spells.) it isn't that difficult or slow to dig yourself a hole into the bunker before denotating your superbomb (Better have at least two other Mages on overwatch in order to protect the bomb while you're digging the hole though.) and introducing Mr Dragon to the "Chunky Salsa" Rules.

Of course, you'd have to be able to pop whatever Wards the dragon has put up, but I don't really see much of a problem with that.

The original thread from which this one sprang, was a question about the differences between D&D and Shadowrun. I think this thread has so far answered that question better than anyone person could. The complete and utter unwillingness on the part of the posters here, to abstract the fight against the dragon from context - reasons why it's being attacked, motivations of the dragon, time limits, political context and all the rest of it - is the difference between the games in action. Despite poor Talia's repeated attempts to stick to her original intention of a simple encounter, the Shadowrun players are intractable. They will have their political context and their reasons for being hired and their leg-work in locating the company that constructed the lair, because the Shadowrun player knows that these are the things that will really make a difference between success and failure, not a few points in an attribute here or there.

Talia - I respect your intention here, but don't you realise that when you try to turn it back to "the team arrive at the lair, what do you do?" that you're not wrestling with a bunch of recalcitrant dumpshockers. You're pitting yourself against the structure of the Shadowrun game itself. In asking people to give up on these things, you're asking for an implicit acceptance that success or failure depend on something other than context. And that isn't so.

Now if you posted this on the D&D forums, you'd get a whole lot of useful advice on what weapons to use, etc. etc.

Well yes the lair is underground I'm asking about the entrance. Which could be halfway up mount everest if the thing felt like it.

Course if the dragon won't spends spirits or lackeys outside of the lair to attack that does make things simpler. If the approach is totally unimpeded Ravors thing would probably be worth a shot.

Of course again there is the "dragon has some explosives of it's own at the entrance" and magegoggle issues during setup.

Really I think it was best said with "any plan of attack has a counter". Even if someone does sit down and do this with the OP the rest of us are going to say things along the lines of "that's baloney the dragon would have done X, Y or Z and shut that down" or somesuch.

For example consider my "have the six grade 4 initiates and their 48 force 8 spirits just assault the thing in the astral. They destory any wards they encounter (pretty easy) and then use spells to avoid the dragons mystic armor, an overcast spell or two and the thing is down. The spirits can materialize and kill the dragons body if need be. I probably wouldn't need all that fancy of tactics, and I could make infirm mages with 1's in their physical stats for some min maxing goodness. I'd bet as it is that group would probably clear the dragon (would it OP?)

But then someone will point out that the dragon could have ringed it's place with super high background count via mana static. For example level 9 counts. Our spirits wouldn't be able to penetrate (binding multiple force 10 spirits might well result in losing a couple PCs) however the dragons force 12 could engage the super weak PCs. And maybe once it realizes that it's facing an astral attack it could lay down some level 11 background count right around where it's at. Which would totally prevent the astral squad from closing.

Most physical assaults could also be halted by someone saying, "well if the dragon had just put some eplosives underground here, and had a spirit detonate them when the party was in the right spot that would be that.

*EDIT: QFT what knasser said. Note that I'm not saying dragons are indestructable. It's just that clearing a lair is super dependent on the details. And any team that tries it without legwork (such as loved ones being held hostage or whatever) is pretty much crossing their fingers that the GM makes some lousy defenses, or at least doesn't counter their method.

I agree with Crisp and others who have said the premise of the challenge has to be changed or it all falls apart.

I also agree with Knasser, the premise of the adventure is much more critical in SR than it is in D&D and this thread proves that. Granted I remember a very old issue of Dungeon that first introduced the concept of a smart, well prepared dragon in D&D, but even that came down to a dungeon crawl.

This whole thread so far could easily be replaced with a "Mr. Magoo Challenge" where you have a blind senile 100 year old mundane human at the center of a multimillion dollar bunker. So far the dragon is completely irrelevant.

Maybe this more detailed premise might move things forward:

The dragon just got fired during a political shakeup in his company and you're hired to hunt him down and terminate him permanently. The dragon flees to his own personal backup lair and he calls some friends nearby to come to his rescue. He knows you're coming, you know he's called for backup so you need to finish this quickly because nasty backup will be there within the hour. If you don't get him now, you may never find him again. Luckily you knew he'd probably flee to his backup lair, so you came prepared. The adventure starts with the team just outside the dragon's lair just as the dragon slams the doors shut. Everyone starts uninjured and with full ammo.

Sound good Talia?

How big of a company are we talking about and what field do they specialize in, if any?

Also given that we are on a tight timeframe how did we discover the lair in the first place? (If the corp tracked him there why didn't they take him out mid-flight if they want him dead that badly?)

How did we get to the lair? (This is going to change loadouts and tactics quite a bit.)

*Edit*

Also most imporantly, why is the fact that we are being hired to geek a dragon any more relavent to the scenerio then if we were hired to geek a human CEO?

Sounds better, although I think my team would turn down the job because it sounds like a setup given how easily they found us on such short notice.

Perhaps the board had already hired the team, but wasn't planning on actually hitting the dragon quite yet, this just moved the timetable up and ruined our ambush plans.

Still, how much are we getting paid for this job and what kind of resources does the team actually have access to?

The fact that it's a dragon (or something dragon grade) is significant. It removes the players "I've got better magic than you" trump card. If it's a regular mundane facility with fairly pedestrian wards and some wagemages Mr. Magoo will be in a world of hurt from some spirits in no time.

The problem is that we're dealing with the sort of thing that can bring down an 11 background count whenever it feels like it, and other such feats. Which means that a physical attack is neccesary. And there are lots of ways that could go wrong, especially in a remote subterrainian lair, as opposed to a much more vulnerable high rise.

Sure, which is why I'm assuming that when the team was hired to geek the dragon in the first place they were planning on a straight up ambush, just like they would against any high profile VIP assasination.

So it's either finish the job and extract a rather large bonus from Mr Johnson for the added risk or run with the up-front money.

I think you are going to want to introduce a chance encounter into the deal, otherwise people are going to go nova with stealing fuel trucks, making nuclear weapons, and otherwise pushing the limits of the challenge until they break. There are a number of irresistable forces in Shadowrun, and the dragon is not an immovable object. The net result is that if the PCs are allowed to just sit back and think of ways to kill the target (whether the target be Mr. Magoo or a Dragon), the sky is the limit.

A more telling scenario is one in which the characters have to outfit themselves for a run beginning, middle, and end - and happen to fight a Dragon at some point.

• Scenario A: Your team is performing a heist of some sort, being careful to not alert either the 'Star or the Mafia soldiers elsewhere in the building. You've got the scroll, but it turns out that someone else wants it too! A western dragon tears through the roof benefitting from Silence and it's go time. The Mafiosos can't hear the Dragon, but the sensors on the building are going nuts - and so are they.
  
  If the team makes any loud noises they will have 30 seconds before mafia troopers storm the room. Then they'll have 4 minutes to get out of the place before the popos arrive. It's just 7 minutes until the neighborhood is crawling with securiy contractors anywhere.
  
  The goal is to get the scroll out without starting a blood feud with the local Don, so if the team kills any mafia soldiers the mission is a fialure. If any mafiosos can later identify any of the team members, well that's pretty bad too. The dragon starts in cover and the team has only what they can infiltrate into a guarded mafia mansion.
  .
  .
• Scenario B: Your team is a mercenary unit in the cola wars. There you are slogging through the river near Bogale on a mission to eliminate an Ayeyarwaddy Province Red base. You're about 2 kilometers out, when bam - it turns out that you've been found by an Eastern Dragon. He's a big fan of Mr. Pibb, so it's go time.
  
  Your team will have to complete the mission in a few. Once combat has begun, it is unreasonable to believe that the Minute Men will not be alerted. They'll be combat ready in 8 minutes. But the sabotage must go through or people will be drinking Vault from Henzada to Kywegyaung. In 20 minutes, the Minute Men will have air support from Yangon, so whatever the plan, the PCs must be safely hidden in the jungle or out of the country by then.
  
  The team has whatever they can get down the Bogale River to Meinmahla Kyun without breaking the ridge top and getting cut down by Minute Air. They have to sabotage the plant and get away with their lives and the time table is short. This draconic interference is a speed bump.

-Frank

I'd much rather be hired to kill a dragon than Mr. Magoo. That guy has at least a 46 edge given how often he avoids instant death.

I like Frank's scenarios, but I still want to optimize for killing dragons. My character is optimized for dragonslaying because...uh, I've heard that there are dragons in dem der woods. Ok, maybe I'm optimized for dragonslaying because a dragon murdered my father and one day I will find the murderer and say to him "Hello, my name is Buster Montoya, you killed my father. Prepare to die!"

Heck, with the right supplements you can model SR with d20.

And that's a pretty unfair categorization of D&D players as well. Just because some people do nothing but dungeon crawl and don't care about motivation doesn't mean everyone does. There isn't a published WotC adventure where motivations are meaningless unless you want them to be. They've all got back story and reasons for doing them, just like a run. Except the reasons are usually more involved than "Some guy who says his name is Johnson is paying you cash."

See, unfair generalizations can go both ways.

Since he said "higher end" I assumed he was using a 12 for the dragons magic. Which with edge makes the 11 common. But yes that will probably put some drain on the thing. On the other hand unless the scenario prohibits it the dragon could have cast that earilier in the day and then taken a nap. And if it kills off/repells the players and all their spirits it's not a bad combat move even with a little drain.

EDIT: A D&D thread might be fun for all. All I'll say now is the SR system compared to the d20 system is significant.

First you get to probability curves. In d20 you have a very unreliable system. You are as likely to roll a 2 as a 19. Therefore unless you are leagues above someone things like sneaking around tend to just not work (i.e. if I have +18 for stealth and the other guys have +9 to perception you'll fail before too long). The d6 system has a nice bell curve though if I have 18 die and they have 9 you can move forward with some (though not total) confidence. Making that style of play more significant.

Secondly the hit point per level and attack rolls generally don't affect damage reduces tactics. In SR the faction you can get one shotted even after years of playing produces a very different feel because you always have to stay on your toes.

A few thing: (note I might have missed some replies read most of it, but missed the start and this has already hit alot of pages).


1) Divination:
a) How are you assensing the dragon to perform the divination and/or what material link are you using.
b) "She may then ask one question about an EVENT in the subject's future - divination is only useful in answering questions about events, not personal details or histories." No getting maps of the lair, no getting passcodes, no getting (you get the idea). Add in vague and cryptic and how your word your question becomes real imporant. 'Will the dragon leave the lair today" (yep she astral projected to the meta planes, to catch up with an old flame).

2) Sapience: Sapient critters are considered untrained (see page 108) for skills they do not posses ...... are also capaple of learning new skills. Awakened sapiernt critters are capable of ALL magical tasks and follow the same rules for magic as normal characters.
a) No worries about them being born ages before electricity if they have karma they can pick up the skills, and even if they dont they can default as per normal...
b) They can take any meta-magic technique a character could. True the need to pick a tradition (possesion tradition anyone? Does immunity normal weapons STACK with hardened armor?). Furthermoore Divination works MUCH better on ... Is somebody going to attack me if I go out my door ... and getting a material link to oneself (or assensing onself) is much easier...

3) It is far easier to attack then defend in SR (especially fourth). The instant the dragon is aware of somebody trying to hurt him (divination really helps here) rest assured he is going to be HUNTING the individuals trying to hurt him ... NOT counting his gold... Short of players using massive landscape altering tactics, it is very unlikely that a dragon with reasonable (especially if you are going to use divination as written makes it quite easy for the dragon to know when to leave. (say each week: the generic question: Is someone going to breach my lairs defenses this week. (If yes either 1) Divine for more information and/or move to yoru backup lair or three do both. The dragon will have a FAR easier time one-shooting players (if not player groups) then the players will have at one-shotting the dragon. Once the dragon gets winds of any specific threats ... its very bad news for the players... and as written Divination pretty much means the dragon WILL know when they are attacking.