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Tarantula
Have one of the guys pop astral and assense the dragon. Now its a threshold 4, rush the job, use some edge on it, and your interval is half a day, and the edge fixes your glitch, so there ya go. Likely to get it in one go.

Yes, they do get -6 for symbolic link, and they get +6 for the symbolic link focus that negates it. Street Magic pg 30. They all have one.
Vaevictis
If you're using a symbolic link focus you actually have to enchant the symbolic link on top of just making the symbolic link, which adds a (16+Object Resistance) / 1 day test.

Also, isn't there a rule about not using more than one focus on a single test? (EDIT: SR4.192, under "Bonding": "Regardless of the number of foci a magician may possess, only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool.")

As far as "popping astral" to go assense the dragon, not only do you have to actually get to the dragon, get past its defenses, assense it, and get out alive, once you pop in there, as Talia mentioned, the dragon becomes active too.

EDIT: Also, the guy who makes the symbolic link has to have personally done the assensing to for it to count, so either they all go, or one guy has to make X links, which takes even more time.
Tarantula
Drop the symbolic focus then, you lose a net of 36 dice off the test. 30 from the assisting guys (10 average hits, + 6 more from rerolls) 16. Plus 6 from the guy using his edge, 2 hits, average 1 from exploding 6's. 19 hits total.

Drops the DV down from 65P to 46P. Yeah, that dragons really gonna live now.

Edit: You're right on the one focus thing. So take out another 6 pool from the power foci. Thats overall a whole 3 hits more. Dropping it to 43P. Yep, he's looking really healthy now.
Vaevictis
I'm not saying he's going to live; you just asked for problems, so I'm pointing out the ones I'm seeing -- you know Talia's going to anyway.

As I said -- main problem I see is that 16 / 1 day issue for crafting the link.
Tarantula
Right. Rush the job, interval is half a day now. Teamwork test. Have their bound spirits guard so glitches don't matter. Now you get 5 guys with Int + Skill (4 + 6) 10 + Edge on it. To teamwork for the big one. You get 3 hits average, with 2 extra from edge. 5 hits total (you don't need to save edge for glitches, thanks to guard). 5 * 5 = 25.

Main guy goes, with his 10 + 25 for 35 pool. Average of 11 hits. Edge to reroll failures. 24 dice makes 8 more hits. 19 hits vs 16 threshold is done in half a day. 2 hours later, you have a splattered dragon.
Vaevictis
Excellent.

Got any contingencies for when, an hour into the ritual, the dragon says, "Oh shit, I think someone's doing a ritual casting at me," and inevitably steps under whatever ward is handy, and then starts pumping out Spirits of Man every other combat turn for an hour straight, with the optional Innate Spell (Mana Barrier) and an order to cast a mana barrier inside the last one cast?

Or, alternatively, it starts pumping out spirits that can counterspell to the same effect? (... technically, better effect, I think...)

EDIT: If you modify the leader to have an 11 magic, that takes care of this problem.
Fortune
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
Spellcasting (4) ...

... Suggested Spells: Armor, Astral Armor, Levitate, Prophylaxis, Combat Sense, Spacial Sense (Extended Area), Catalog, Deflection, Detect Enemies (Extended Area), Increase Reflexes, Increase Body, Increase Agility, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Increase Willpower, Increase Strength

With a Spellcasting of 4, you could have at most 8 Spells at chargen.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jul 20 2007, 04:26 AM)
With a Spellcasting of 4, you could have at most 8 Spells at chargen.

I guess you'd want to spend some of the remaining BP on spellcasting then, and drop a few to boot. smile.gif

(EDIT: Probably up spellcasting to 6, drop astral armor, armor, prophylaxis, levitate, and learn at least levitate using karma. Net effect: -5 karma/+4 BP remaining)
Talia Invierno
I didn't see the stats mentioned again, so in case you want to reference the troll archer's stats I'll relink p.3, with Tarantula's original dragon killer character (about a third of the way down).

Apart from a few PC builds, it looks like you have two separate team proposals: Crusher Bob's broad-based team, and Tarantula's focused magic ritual team, both on p.10. This decision has to be made before the attempted killing of the dragon can proceed.
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Also sense all dragons are magicians and have sapience power, all dragons can learn metamagic / initiate.

Dragons are equal + to characters by definition (IMO). so they got karma....

A dragon worth his salt would take quickening IMO.

And a few others, yes: but for the purpose of this challenge I'm not giving the dragon any karma. (Contacts and spells I'm buying with bp back-converted from nuyen.) Believe me, I'm noticing the limitations!
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Should the Hacker Adept or Pornomancer Adept be switched out for characters with direct combat power (I’m picking these because or their ability in legwork).

For this purpose, the only legwork possible within the 24 hours will be to learn more about the area. In a larger campaign, you could have discovered details of the dragon's dealings with the greater world -- but you wouldn't be able to find out anything about the lair itself. That may change your choices.
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Any help to be had from having some paranormal critters as part of the team's equpiment? If the pronomancer adept takes handle animal 6 and improved animal handling 3, even some normally untrainable animals are probably fair game. would 6 or so hell hounds, barghests, or whatever else you can think of help.

Some of these critters respond better to training than others. As one example I'd definitely allow hellhounds with an Active skill in Animal Handling (Hellhound) ... bearing in mind that in this kind of combat situation, the handler might have to repeatedly roll the skill (possibly as an opposed roll) to keep control of the animals.
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
And all I have to say is, thank goodness dragons don't get channeling!

Well, this one doesn't. The question is still under debate in the other thread.
QUOTE
Hire a fairly powerful magician to heal you. He should also cast Increase Attribute (Body) to raise your body to 9. Hire a fairly high skilled medic to use first aid on you. We'll go ahead and allocate 200,000 nuyen to this, since it's going to take some time. The magician needs to be paid well enough that he's willing to overcast, too. (we can heal physical drain now, right?)

I think I'll require these to be Loyalty 6 contacts, if you go this route. You're only trusting them with your life, completely and utterly -- and you're requiring them to go considerably past best judgement for your well-being, not theirs.
QUOTE
2. If you take any drain, heal it.

Damage taken due to drain is not magically healable. That was clarified by Synner in the stickied Street Magic thread: in discussing what was the point of the Sacrificing metamagic. Threat metamagics are not permissible for PCs.

Anything else I missed in this endless loop?
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Have one of the guys pop astral and assense the dragon. Now its a threshold 4, rush the job, use some edge on it, and your interval is half a day, and the edge fixes your glitch, so there ya go. Likely to get it in one go.

Let me know when you do this. Combat turns, please.

All right, that catches me completely up. (I'm going to be off-line for longer, this time; probably back on Saturday.) Trying to stick strictly throughout with the core rules, to give us the reliable common basis. It's possible I might slip: in which case please do correct me.

And I hope you're having fun with the chargen/build wet dreams. smile.gif
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
I think I'll require these to be Loyalty 6 contacts, if you go this route.  You're only trusting them with your life, completely and utterly -- and you're requiring them to go considerably past best judgement for your well-being, not theirs.


Alright then, proceed directly to exploitation #2...

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE
2. If you take any drain, heal it.

Damage taken due to drain is not magically healable. That was clarified by Synner in the stickied Street Magic thread: in discussing what was the point of the Sacrificing metamagic. Threat metamagics are not permissible for PCs.


Okay. In that case:

1. Spend the 4BP freed up previously by spells, drop a point in enchanting, make an arbitrarily large number of Wicker Men (sm.87) at 600 a pop.
2. Buy an arbitrarily large number of First Aid (6) kits at 600 a pop.
3. Whip up an arbitrarily large amount of Force 6 task spirits with Skill (First Aid), have them possess the Wicker Men, and task them remote service style to heal you when injured using Skill (First Aid) with First Aid Kit in teamwork with any other Wicker Men. (the Shadow Run 4 FAQ does say drain can be healed with mundane means...)
4. While summoning up the task spirits, summon up a spirit of man and have it use Guard to protect against glitches at appropriate intervals. Remote Service style, of course.
5. Proceed with loop.

It should be noted that the character no longer needs the spirit pact, and so gets the 5BP back, and no longer needs to reserve the karma for that spirit pact, and is free to spend it as he pleases.
Vaevictis
And by the way, if we're talking arbitrarily large, assuming I summon say, 84 of those spirits, I'm rolling... let's call it 1000 dice.

n=1000
p=1/3

mu=333
sigma squared=223
sigma=15

On 1000 dice, I'm pretty certain to get at least 228 successes (99.99999999974% sure).

Set new dice pool to that number of successes:
n=228
p=1/3

mu=76
sigma squared=51
sigma=7.11 (~7)

On 228 dice, I'm pretty sure to get at least 28 successes (99.99999980268% sure).

So, I'm still pretty confident he's "safe", assuming there's no errata I'm missing that prohibits first aid/teamwork on physical drain.

84 of the spirits is no trouble at all -- go to the right place in Alaska at the right time of year, and sunrise to sunset is 85 days. Not to mention you can summon 1200 spirits an hour, assuming the drain doesn't own you first.

It should also be noted that I suspect that using this teamwork exploitation and the 85 day day in Alaska, you could easily increase the ally spirit's force as high as you want and still be "safe" on the binding. Just add more task spirits, more wicker men, more medkits.

And if you want to put a cap on the number of spirits that can do teamwork on the First Aid, well, we can always prepare higher force wicker men and summon higher force task spirits as our magic balloons during the main loop. (although, RAW, AFAIK, don't have a provision for such a limit)
Vaevictis
Hell, come to think of it, using that loop, you don't even need the ally spirit.

Just loop up to a really high magic rating, spawning off task spirits as you go, and remote service some arbitrarily high force spirits to go kill the dragon.

I can't imagine how a dragon would deal with 50 force 50 spirits coming his way all at once.
Particle_Beam
How the heck do you even get a force 50 spirit, which would be the most powerful being on earth ever?

And there's a maximum number of people who can heal you, before the rest simply does nothing at all...
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
How the heck do you even get a force 50 spirit, which would be the most powerful being on earth ever?


See the loop to summon ally spirit in post above. To summarize:

1. Assuming the first aid/teamwork thing is arbitrary in number of participants, and first aid can heal drain, you can heal an arbitrary amount of drain in short order: Summon a bunch of task spirits with the First Aid skill, set them to heal you using teamwork. Make this number very large.
2. Summon a spirit with force slightly higher than your magic, but not so high that the drain can kill you outright.
3. Let your medical team heal you.
4. Channel the spirit. Your physical stats are the sum of the force and your own stats; mental and special stats are equal to the spirit's (magic is a special stat); this increases your damage track, your overflow, etc.
5. Because your damage track, overflow, etc, increased, you can repeat the process pretty much infinitely if you make the force increase steps small.

Repeat until you're satisfied.

QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
And there's a maximum number of people who can heal you, before the rest simply does nothing at all...


Reference please? (Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see what it says, and if it's possible to break it)
Buster
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Divination:

You also misssed each divination increases threshold by +1 until the subject or situation changes sufficently per GM. (if the subject is infiltrating the lair and I dont care how you rephrase it thats what you doing) then each question to get a better description of the lair hits that +1... thats going to knock divination down to 4-5 useful questions at absolute best and it is still very GM determenable on how symbolic the information is. but it is NOT hollywood style spy satelite filming the dragon taking a bath...

First of all, the subject is "entering a specific room in a complex" NOT "infiltrating the lair". You would get +1 threshold for every drill down question about the room, not about the whole complex. By your logic you'd get a +1 threshold cumulatively for your entire life because you're using Divining while "making money shadowrunning" (as you said "I dont care how you rephrase it thats what you doing") therefore you keep accumulating +1 threshold your entire life until you die.

For example:
"What would I perceive when I enter the front door at 6:00pm?"

This is the same as asking:
"What would Mr. Johnson say if I asked for another 10,000 nuyen?" or "What would happen if I started my car right now?"
This is a very specific question about an event caused by an event and therefore 4 threshold.

With 3 successes = "You see a large room beyond with a door at the far end and you hear alarm bells going off and the distant sound of boots running on concrete and doors opening" (you don't see the 2 doors on either side of you or the spirit in the corner because you can't see them from the door)

"What would I perceive when I walk into that room at 6:01pm?" 4+1 threshold
I roll 3 successes (somehow...) = "You see a large empty oddly shaped room with a door in front of you and a door to either side of you."

"What would I perceive when I fire a gun in that room at 6:01pm?" 4+2 threshold
I roll 3 successes (unlikely...) = "You see a large spirit appear in front of you and leap at you"
"What would I perceive when I view that room with astral perception at 6:01pm?" 4+3 threshold and so on

But then:
"What would I perceive when I walk through that door at the end of that room at 6:02pm and I hadn't set off the alarm yet?" back to 4 threshold.

"What would I perceive when I walk through that door at the end of that room at 6:02pm and I HAD already set off the alarm?" 4+1 threshold.

It isn't a "spy satellite", it's asking specific questions about specific events. Otherwise what the hell is Divining for?
laughingowl
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
If it is holed up in it lair, expect a force 18 or so ward around it (twice magic).


No. Not one fucking chance. There is no way that a dragon is going to voluntarily decide to subject itself to 18P drain every five or six weeks. That's crazy talk.

Making wards is fun for the whole family, but overcasting wards is not something that anyone does.

-Frank

Frank:

Every few weeks? For its lair once and spend karma... Who the help (save another dragon) is going to BUST force 18 words ... something as important as its lair .. Overcating and karma to make permenant, if I have any kind of permenant lair (aka not living in shadows) would be on of the first things I would do.
Buster
Let me amend what I said by saying that I would think that you would probably accumulate +1 threshold throughout a divination chain but the threshold would reset once you were now directly perceiving the next subject or event.

For example, after I had walked through the front door and was now facing the second door and I THEN asked about what was beyond that first door, then the threshold would reset back to 4. But if I only acquired knowledge about an event or subject using Divining, then the +1 cumulative threshold would apply.

So in that sense, it would be tricky to get a complete map of the complex this way BEFORE you started entering the complex, but you could get a good map of the complex once you started going through it.

To simplify things, you could always ask "What would I see if I opened up the map to this complex?". If there is no map that exists in the future, then you'd get that as an answer.

You could also ask "What does the dragon see as he walks through the complex?" "What does patrol guard #1 see..." etc. Those would be threshold 4 for each person in the complex and wouldnt suffer the +1 accumulation (as long as you didnt learn about those people only from Divining)
laughingowl
QUOTE (Buster)
[QUOTE=laughingowl,Jul 20 2007, 01:49 AM] Divination:

You also misssed each divination increases threshold by +1 until the subject or situation changes sufficently per GM. (if First of all, the subject is "entering a specific room in a complex" NOT "infiltrating the lair". You would get +1 threshold for every drill down question about the room, not about the whole complex. By your logic you'd get a +1 threshold cumulatively for your entire life because you're using Divining while "making money shadowrunning" (as you said "I dont care how you rephrase it thats what you doing") therefore you keep accumulating +1 threshold your entire life until you die.

Well to correct a mis-use of specific terms:

To be technical the 'Subject' is the person.

The situation is the quesitonable point.

Now the rules say: You get +1 until the subject or the situation changes suffieciently for the GM. (paraphrpase).

You COULD (though would have to assay each person) try multiple subjects.

As to the situation:

To me the situation (admitedly a gm call) has changed suffeciently as long as it is about gaining information on the dragons lair.

For example:

Will Bobby jones take a bribe to let people past the security gate?

Is a good question.
If yes, then you could refine it to:

Would Bobby Jones take and honor a bribe of ¥5,000 to let people past the security gate. (for +1)

Would Bobby Jones take and honr a bribe for ¥1,000 to let people past the gate (for an additional +1), etc to refine the amount.

However you could say each of those is sufficently different to reset the penalty.


'Well something bad happen to me this week"
Is a good scyring: While it cant predict the actual future (predictions have the habit of being both self-defeating and self-fufilling), YOu would get a good indication if somebody was directly planning on attacking you and / or were expecting significant danger.

A week later though the situation has very signficantly changes (the week you scryed no longer exists) and you would not be at a +1 penalty. (IMO)


The subject it the person being divined:
The situation is going into the dragon's lair.

When that situation changes suffiecntly:
Different lair, he modifies the lair adding new doors, etc then it reset.

Doesnt matter if the question is:
Whats behind door number one?
Whats behind door number two?
or
Whats behind door number 9,999,9999?

Each of those the situation is the dragons lair. Change that situation and reset the penalty.

Also you have NEVER addressed and always ignore the fact that the rules explictly state:

NO HARD INFORMATION WILL BE GIVEN ... things are expressed in symbolism and metaphor.

It is great for finding out if there is a 'trap' in the room.

It is great for finding out if that security code you found on the 'trix is accurate..

It will not give you a floorplan.
laughingowl
QUOTE (laughingowl)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 20 2007, 07:03 AM)
QUOTE
If it is holed up in it lair, expect a force 18 or so ward around it (twice magic).


No. Not one fucking chance. There is no way that a dragon is going to voluntarily decide to subject itself to 18P drain every five or six weeks. That's crazy talk.

Making wards is fun for the whole family, but overcasting wards is not something that anyone does.

-Frank

Frank:

Every few weeks? For its lair once and spend karma... Who the help (save another dragon) is going to BUST force 18 words ... something as important as its lair .. Overcating and karma to make permenant, if I have any kind of permenant lair (aka not living in shadows) would be on of the first things I would do.

Frank:

Dragons are long term creatures, you men seriously the Dragon wouldnt spend 18 karam to make the ward permenant and take the drain ONCE in a million years.

Ok an attacking dragon might also be able to punch through the wards.. and break them so once, every few thousand years... (but you get warning of the attacking dragon... you bit I would take the drain once)


Also if we are going RAW (not common sense and/or GM house ruling).

Can you tell my why the 'lodge' approach wont work.

QUOTE
If the magician wishes to increase the rating of an existing
lodge, additional materials must be acquired to bring the
Force up to the desired level. An activation ritual must also be
performed, taking a number of days equal to the diff erence between
the current Force and the desired Force. Gamemasters
can generalize the cost of searching and gathering at a fl at cost
of 500Â¥ per Force point. Improving a Force 4 lodge to Force 6,
for example, would cost 1,000Â¥ and take two days of ritual.



1 day to make a lodge rating 1 (and 500 ¥)
1 day to imrpove the lodge to rating 2 (and ¥500)
1 day to imrpove the lodge to rating 3 (and ¥500)
...
1 day to imrpove the lodge to rating 5 (and ¥500)

50 days and 50*500 ¥25,000 and nothing is every getting past his mana barrier around his home... undeground unless you are regularly pushing through mother earth, it is unlikely you would ever see the glow ... though you sure as hell wouldnt notice when you hit it...


Now Talia's example is taking a dragon from the realm of impressive to
a grunt' by denying prime runner status (and thus karma of its own eve it the laughable 'inferiour 80% of the players) ... if not a prime runner then by the rules it is a grunt, doesnt get individual edge (even if a Lt.)

Giving players 200 karma and NOTHING to the dragon is like saying the players get a THOR station and the target gets a signal 12 RFID tag permenatly embedded into his brain... (no challange).

If the dragon has ANY porition of 200 karma then he would do it... and spend karma to make it permenant.
laughingowl
Frank:

As a sideline I also have a question.

You seem to have major problems with the dragon spending karma and risking its life once to make a defendable lair. (serious warding on it)

YET: you raise no objections to the divination equals infailable smuggled camera into the lair and perfectly map out every defense, trap, security feature, etc.... (all within a day or so... Who the F' does legwork... higher a diviner and win)
toturi
QUOTE (laughingowl)
(all within a day or so... Who the F' does legwork... higher a diviner and win)

Now you know. Why are you still doing legwork? That's what my PCs do, except the Diviner is a PC.
laughingowl
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Jul 20 2007, 10:53 PM)
(all within a day or so...  Who the F' does legwork...  higher a diviner and win)

Now you know. Why are you still doing legwork? That's what my PCs do, except the Diviner is a PC.

Toturi:

How do you get around by the rules: 'No hard facts'....


The rules repeatidly make it clear divination is not the give all answer, it is an additional source but gives no hard facts and is covered with symoblism and metaphor.


You can not divine the security code to disarm the bomb... you CAN divine the ruesults of entering security code XYZ.... (good for verifying what legwork has provided) ... but divination can provide no HARD FACTS1....

Tarantula
Aha! Now to make my lead sorcery guy different from the rest.

The sorcery leader advances slightly different.
[ Spoiler ]


Why does he go for the magic 11? Well, because, the test for ritual sorcery is 12hrs - Leaders magic. Minimum of one hour. 12 - 11 = 1 hour. The test to detect it is 20-force beginning one hour after the ritual starts.

So, the ritual starts, one spirit is guarding the whole team. Still force 20 slay (dragon). All the other 11 spirits are aiding sorcery. (I couldn't find anywhere that said only 1 spirit may aid sorcery per spell). So, polls for sorcery members are as follows:
-6 sympathetic + Magic + Ritual Spellcasting + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit 1 + Spirit 2 (One man doesn't get spirit 2, as his is busy guarding).
-6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 + 6 = 37
-6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31
They use edge to reroll failures, 4 of them average 13 hits, with 24 rerolled, for another 8. 21 hits for them.
Last guy gets 10 hits, reroll of 21 dice, gets 7 more, total 17 for him
21 * 4 + 17 = 101 for their casting.

Leader goes, he gets the same kind of pool. With 11 magic and no spellcasting focus. Plus edge for exploding 6's, and removing the force limiter.
-6 + 11 + 9 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 6= 34 + 101 = 135 dice.
Average of 45 hits. 22 of which explode for another 7. Total of 52 hits. It resolves in one hour, which is when the dragon would get a check to know it was coming. Dragon gets basic willpower (and counterspelling if its so paranoid to constantly be counterspelling itself) (plus edge, if we feel like being nice) for a 24 dice pool. Average 8 hits. 4 explode for 1 more. 9 hits total. 52 - 9 = 43. 43 Net hits, + 20 for force of spell = 63P for the dragon. Done deal.
Talia Invierno
All right: since it seems not to be self evident:

NO INFINITE LOOPS

(This means you, Vaevictis.)

I know there are some loopholes in the rules. I'm much too tired to go hunting for each and every logic hole. If you want a challenge, you'll keep it a challenge and work within the spirit of a challenge. If you just want to break the rules, go open a new thread.

Think of it this way: if you can break the system, so can the dragon -- and it's had much, much more lifetime in which to figure out how to do so.
Jaid
the infinite spirit loop has been closed actually. remote service unbound spirits count as your 1 unbound spirit, iirc.

and tarantula, what it *says* is that a given dicepool can only have 1 focus added at a time. each caster, therefore, can use a power focus (and heck, why not a spellcasting focus to resist drain, too?) on their test, which gives teamwork test dice to the leader, but the focus itself is not being added to the leader's dice pool, it's simply adding to the supporting magician's ability to help.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (laughingwl)
You seem to have major problems with the dragon spending karma and risking its life once to make a defendable lair.
First of all, no. Taking 18P drain under any circumstances is completely unreasonable. That's the kind of thing that is highly likely to leave you with permanent injuries or bleeding wounds. And it's Drain, so it can't be magically healed. The only thing you can do about it is medicine, and dragons are notoriously hard to affect with that (being, for example, not mammals).

QUOTE (laughingowl)
Can you tell my why the 'lodge' approach wont work.


Define "work". A mana lodge is a barrier, yes, but it's not anything particularly special. It's just like having an actual wall set up on the astral plane. It does not actually stop the Ritual Sorcery attack, for example. Of course, a Force 50 mana lodge is one hundred meters across - so unless his lair is the RCA Dome, he'll have to cut back a bit.

So yes, in the case of the Ritual Sorcery attack, both the mages and the dragon can be in arbitrarily large mana lodges (assuming that they have the space), which will pretty much guaranty that neither party can do anything meaningful through astral projection.

In the case of the diverse team's run through the complex, the barrier seriously has no effect. Even the Staticmancer can simply mundanely walk form one side of the barrier to the other and then teleport the static to a new place he can see on the same side of the barrier as himself.

All it does is stop a chain summoning assault - that's where you have 3 magicians and 3 first aid experts and you have each just summon a high force spirit and remote service it to go attempt to possess the dragon. If it fails or dies, the magician (who by now should be healed with the amount of first aid on him) does it again. A large enough barrier will stop that shit cold, but at 1 meter in radius per force point, getting a barrier that big may not fit in your favorite cave.

-Frank
Crusher Bob
They kept the metaplanar shortcut for bound spirits, didn't they? So your bound spirit can always show up next to you, once you have stepped across the barrier... Of course, this means that anything dual natured is probably not comming trough.
toturi
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Jul 20 2007, 11:09 PM)
Toturi:

How do you get around by the rules:  'No hard facts'....


The rules repeatidly make it clear divination is not the give all answer, it is an additional source but gives no hard facts and is covered with symoblism and metaphor.


You can not divine the security code to disarm the bomb...  you CAN divine the ruesults of entering security code XYZ....  (good for verifying what legwork has provided) ...  but divination can provide no HARD FACTS1....

Incorrect.
QUOTE
Gamemasters should allow leeway for characters to receive hints and probabilities rather than hard facts.
The more hits, the greater the probability. The rules do not say Divination can provide no HARD FACTS. Rather that the GM should allow leeway for the characters to receive hints and probabilities instead.
toturi
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jul 21 2007, 12:17 AM)
All right: since it seems not to be self evident:

NO INFINITE LOOPS

(This means you, Vaevictis.)

I know there are some loopholes in the rules.  I'm much too tired to go hunting for each and every logic hole.  If you want a challenge, you'll keep it a challenge and work within the spirit of a challenge.  If you just want to break the rules, go open a new thread.

Think of it this way: if you can break the system, so can the dragon -- and it's had much, much more lifetime in which to figure out how to do so.

So? Let it(or you) to come up with infinity loops in its favor then. The point of any challenge is to find a loophole that makes the challenge a non-challenge. That's what makes it a challenge. And while the dragon has more lifetime, I bet the dragon's player doesn't and given the rapid changes in the 6th world, the rules keep changing every decade or so. So the PCs have 6 times more time to figure out how to do so, because the rules change every decade. And please don't tell us that the PCs are all 9 year old kids.
ShadowDragon8685
Wow....

You guys have created Shadowrun's answer to Pun-Pun.


50 Force 50 Spirits... I'm pretty sure that's enough to swat even Ghostwalker. Swat him - hell, spank him like a biatch.

That many spirits of that Force could probably even stop an entire Horror incursion, assuming the mega-mojo you've got running through your eternally sunlit domain in Alaskan Summer dosen't itself create a mana surge that summons the Horrors.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Wow....

You guys have created Shadowrun's answer to Pun-Pun.


50 Force 50 Spirits... I'm pretty sure that's enough to swat even Ghostwalker. Swat him - hell, spank him like a biatch.

That many spirits of that Force could probably even stop an entire Horror incursion, assuming the mega-mojo you've got running through your eternally sunlit domain in Alaskan Summer dosen't itself create a mana surge that summons the Horrors.

Actually, the "fifty Force 50 spirits" idea didn't work for numerous reasons.

And it was in no way as world shattering as The Wish and The Word anyway.

-Frank
knasser
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Now Talia's example is taking a dragon from the realm of impressive to a grunt' by denying prime runner status (and thus karma of its own eve it the laughable 'inferiour 80% of the players) ... if not a prime runner then by the rules it is a grunt, doesnt get individual edge (even if a Lt.)


I'm surprised that people have interpreted the book this way. The statement under Dracoform is as follows:

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg.295)
Because of their unique natures, dragons should always
be considered Prime Runner characters (see p. 276), and generally rate as Superhuman Prime Runners, or even higher.


To me, that doesn't suggest that I should take the dragon as printed and pile 800BP on top of it. It means only that I should consider the dragon as printed to be a prime runner. The BP and karma scores given in that section are for creating Prime Runners. What the dragon section tells us is that it already is one. The part that is relevant, I think, is the section that describes what each grade of Prime Runner represents. "Superhuman" reads as follows:
QUOTE (SR4 @ pg.277)

Superhuman: Some prime runners are so powerful that
they can take on the entire PC group single-handedly and
win. Like Superior prime runners, they are not bound by the
constraints that apply to starting player characters. In general,
player characters should encounter Superhuman prime runners
very rarely; such characters are usually masterminds manipulat-
ing events behind the scenes.


This tells you how to handle such powerful individuals and it is obviously appropriate for playing dragons. If you're going to create dragons using the BP percentages given for creating Prime Runners, you're going to have to come up with a BP cost for Race: Dracoform. (I'd imagine it's more than (Troll.")

I think it's pretty obvious what is mean by "should be considered as Prime Runners." It just means 'use them in this way, not just as critters.'

-K.
Ravor
Talia Invierno I think that the Thor Shot idea is still valid although a bit overkill, so yeah, if someone wishes to pursue it I'd build it. (Note, it would be a combination of my and Buster's idea, so you'd have to be able to break into a dedicated LOS comm network before you even had a chance to test the Thor Shot Nodes, but hey, thems the breaks.)

*Edit*

However I still stand by my statement that this is a largely pointless thought experiment, but it's been awhile since I've played a message-board game. cyber.gif
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Jaid)
the infinite spirit loop has been closed actually. remote service unbound spirits count as your 1 unbound spirit, iirc.

FWIW, where?

What I'm reading is sr4.178: "Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits."

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
If you want a challenge, you'll keep it a challenge and work within the spirit of a challenge.  If you just want to break the rules, go open a new thread.

Think of it this way: if you can break the system, so can the dragon -- and it's had much, much more lifetime in which to figure out how to do so.


The spirit of the challenge, as I understood it, was to hit the "I WIN" button against a dragon. That's pretty much the way you described it, so that's the way I took it.

If that's not what you really meant, that's fine, but I did stay within your original parameters.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Actually, the "fifty Force 50 spirits" idea didn't work for numerous reasons.


Why?

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
You guys have created Shadowrun's answer to Pun-Pun.


50 Force 50 Spirits... I'm pretty sure that's enough to swat even Ghostwalker. Swat him - hell, spank him like a biatch.


If it works, and so far nobody's convinced me it doesn't by RAW, it's enough to swat just about anyone, even the practitioners of the practice. It's the magical equivalent of a nuke wink.gif

If it works, and you ever used it, I think the consequence of your using it would be that some great dragon or megacorp would figure it out and then use it on you. For anyone powerful enough to draw the attention of someone who might use this trick, this is a technique that is much too powerful to for anyone to know.

It would probably lead to a magical holocaust.

EDIT: Other thought, even though this is probably not the place to discuss it: Considering the obvious potential abuses of having a spirit summoned stick around for 85 days without binding, you'd think that there'd be a land rush to control the places of the earth where that can happen.
Particle_Beam
QUOTE
FWIW, where?

What I'm reading is sr4.178: "Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits."
As per the fourth printing of the SR 4 rulebook, or in this case, SR 4 Errata v. 1.5, spirits on remote service still count against the summoned limit until their remote service is completed.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
FWIW, where?

What I'm reading is sr4.178: "Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits."


In the later printing of that book, or the errata for that very section:

QUOTE (Shadowrun Errata @ v. 1.5)
p. 178 Remote Services [4] the last two lines should read:
“Once a spirit has completed a remote service, it is technically released (unless it is a bound spirit). Spirits on remote service continue to count against the limit of summoned spirits until their remote service is completed.�


You can thank me and Peter for that, btw. I pushed it through, he signed off on it. wink.gif
Now if only I can get a similar piece done up for Blood Spirits, we can have all the infinite power loops taken care of.

---

But yes, there is quite a bit of magical throw-down at both poles. That's why the Aleut are a major player despite their population and lack of arable land.

-Frank
Vaevictis
The infinite loop still exists, it's just not self-contained within one character anymore.

1. Get a group of X folks together. Each can summon C spirits.
2. Each summons the biggest task spirit s/he can safely summon (let's call it force Y) and still be statistically likely to have X*Y first aid teamwork dice heal them.
3. Repeat until you have a full stable of X*C task spirits summoned. Total dice is now X*C*Y
4. One of the folks in the group does the loop until X*C*Y team work'd first aid dice is unsafe.
5. Then each other character does it in turn... (remembering that C increases with the force of the spirit channelled...)
6. Repeat ad nauseum.
laughingowl
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
First of all, no. Taking 18P drain under any circumstances is completely unreasonable. That's the kind of thing that is highly likely to leave you with permanent injuries or bleeding wounds. And it's Drain, so it can't be magically healed. The only thing you can do about it is medicine, and dragons are notoriously hard to affect with that (being, for example, not mammals).

QUOTE (laughingowl)
Can you tell my why the 'lodge' approach wont work.


Define "work". A mana lodge is a barrier, yes, but it's not anything particularly special. It's just like having an actual wall set up on the astral plane. It does not actually stop the Ritual Sorcery attack, for example. Of course, a Force 50 mana lodge is one hundred meters across - so unless his lair is the RCA Dome, he'll have to cut back a bit.

So yes, in the case of the Ritual Sorcery attack, both the mages and the dragon can be in arbitrarily large mana lodges (assuming that they have the space), which will pretty much guaranty that neither party can do anything meaningful through astral projection.

In the case of the diverse team's run through the complex, the barrier seriously has no effect. Even the Staticmancer can simply mundanely walk form one side of the barrier to the other and then teleport the static to a new place he can see on the same side of the barrier as himself.

All it does is stop a chain summoning assault - that's where you have 3 magicians and 3 first aid experts and you have each just summon a high force spirit and remote service it to go attempt to possess the dragon. If it fails or dies, the magician (who by now should be healed with the amount of first aid on him) does it again. A large enough barrier will stop that shit cold, but at 1 meter in radius per force point, getting a barrier that big may not fit in your favorite cave.

-Frank

Agree 18p is going to leave blood ...

Though something you do once every thousand years, could very well be worth it. It isnt going to kill the dragon, if I was 'playing' a dragon my character would gladly do it in a heart beat.

What kind of permenant injuries and please show the rules for that? (bleeding wounds almsot certainly)

Agree with drain can't be healed magically.

Where are dragons hard to affect with medicine? Yeah mean to tell me something that is smarter then any human CAN be, that has lived for thousands of years, hasnt figure out medicine equal to ours ... pretty sure they can tell a friend / spirit / buddy (or do it themselves if they want to eat the penalties) and treat them ... and by cannon nothing limits first aid from working on them same as a troll or a human or a pigmy mutant vorpal bunny

QUOTE (Frank)

QUOTE (laughingowl)
Can you tell my why the 'lodge' approach wont work.


Define "work". A mana lodge is a barrier, yes, but it's not anything particularly special. It's just like having an actual wall set up on the astral plane. It does not actually stop the Ritual Sorcery attack, for example. Of course, a Force 50 mana lodge is one hundred meters across - so unless his lair is the RCA Dome, he'll have to cut back a bit.

So yes, in the case of the Ritual Sorcery attack, both the mages and the dragon can be in arbitrarily large mana lodges (assuming that they have the space), which will pretty much guaranty that neither party can do anything meaningful through astral projection.

In the case of the diverse team's run through the complex, the barrier seriously has no effect. Even the Staticmancer can simply mundanely walk form one side of the barrier to the other and then teleport the static to a new place he can see on the same side of the barrier as himself.

All it does is stop a chain summoning assault - that's where you have 3 magicians and 3 first aid experts and you have each just summon a high force spirit and remote service it to go attempt to possess the dragon. If it fails or dies, the magician (who by now should be healed with the amount of first aid on him) does it again. A large enough barrier will stop that shit cold, but at 1 meter in radius per force point, getting a barrier that big may not fit in your favorite cave.

-Frank


QUOTE (SR4 page 185)
Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as a solid barrier to spells, manifesting entities, spirits, and active foci. Should a magician try to cast a spell through a barrier, the target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to its resistance dice pool.


I read that to mean unless the ritual team inside the mana lodge / barrier they are casting through it... the spell has to pass through the barrier, the dragon gets the barrier rating added.

Had missed the 'size' of a mana lodge (since I was mostly reading pager 167-8 (magical lodges) I missed the reference to size under wards... Agree force 50 might be a little out of it.... Even for a dragon lair under a mountain. Though considering 'non-magic' can walk right through a mana barrier, dont see why that 50M radius isnt projecting into the mountain side. (if ruling 'earth' is living and thus couldnt.. 'process' the stone with shape element to reinforce his lair make it what he wants, and thus is not processed earth same was if corp X dug it out and filled with concrete.


Either way, the dragon is going to have signifcant wards around his lair either permenant 'wards' or make the whole place his lodge (hey no karma only money and time MUCH better choice).


Though then once gain would have to point out the force 20 dragon slaying ritual casting...

That would need a force 20 lodge, so this team of Dragon killer mages someplace has a lodge 20M radisu which is still a pretty big location....
FrankTrollman
That's not an infinite loop though. It's a bounded loop, where the upper bound is "the biggest spirit you could summon anyway" - which means that in terms of "how big of a hammer can you throw at the problem?" the loop adds nothing at all.

All you get is the ability to call up a very large spirit to fill out your one allowed summoned spirit quota so long as the other team members are spending their time healing the inevitable physical drain you'll take instead of doing something productive.

Whether the character on medic duty is a hacker who goes back to hacking when the situation is resolved or a mage who does his own summoning when the situation is resolved doesn't actually matter. In fact, what you're suggesting is substantially inferior in every way to simply "skipping to the end" and making the biggest thing that won't outright kill you as your first thing.

---

So no. You don't have an expanding unbounded loop. You'll never make a Force 50 spirit that way. Not just because you personally don't have a Magic of 25 and thus can't even attempt such an action, but because there's no reason to believe that you would survive the average of 33.3P drain that such a summoning would entail. You'd simply overcast yourself into overflow and instantly die - the summoning would fail, and the cheese stands alone.

There isn't a single part of your proposal which actually works the way you think it does. Not the least because "C" in your example is actually just the number one in all cases.

-Frank
Particle_Beam
QUOTE (Vaevictis)


1. Get a group of X folks together. Each can summon C spirits.

What do you mean with 'C spirits'?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
QUOTE (Vaevictis @ Jul 20 2007, 06:30 PM)


1.  Get a group of X folks together.  Each can summon C spirits.

What do you mean with 'C spirits'?

C is a variable indicating the number of spirits a character can summon. However, since this varies from character to character it should really be Cn (pronounced "See Sub-IN") where each n represents one of the x characters.

Vaevictis
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 20 2007, 06:40 PM)
That's not an infinite loop though. It's a bounded loop, where the upper bound is "the biggest spirit you could summon anyway" - which means that in terms of "how big of a hammer can you throw at the problem?" the loop adds nothing at all.

Ah hah, you are correct. I was confusing spirits summoned with spirits bound.

Okay, the maximum force spirit you can deterministically safely summon AND BIND with channeling is 14.

Assuming a troll who casts Increase Body:

Maximum body attribute at each channeled force is going to be:

B=1.5*(10+F)=15+1.5F

Maximum amount of damage before you die is going to be:

Dmax=8 + 1/2 B + B - 1

Substitute B in:

Dmax=8+1/2*(15+1.5F) + (15+1.5F) - 1 = 8 + 7.5 + 0.75F + 15 + 1.5F -1
=28.5+2.25F
The most damage the next level up can do to you on binding is
SDmax=4*(F+1)

Set SDmax=Dmax, solve.

4*(F+1)=28.5+2.25F
4F+4=28.5+2.25F
1.75F=24.5
F=14

Make sense?

If so, it ain't infinite, but it's still a bigger hammer than what you can safely bind otherwise (force 7, I think). And realistically, if you take probability into account, you can go higher than 14... I just haven't calculated that yet. Probably not much higher because of the way the variance will probably explode on the drain, but still, a little higher.
Buster
<head explodes>
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Make sense?


Not really. While the math holds up, there are two glaring holes in this analysis.
  • You are positting getting the maximum possible benefit from an Increase Body spell. That's... highly improbable given the forces you are throwing around. In your example you are going from Force 13 to Force 14. But that means that you have a Force 13 spirit channeled (where your body is 23, and your augmented maximum is 34). This requires you to get 11 hits on a Force 23 Increase Body spell - while technically possible for some characters, taking it as given is absurd.
  • You are positting that any binding which doesn't instantly kill you is acceptable. That's... unlikely to be true. While Augmentation's advanced wound rules aren't out yet, there's still the fact that an initial binding which leaves you unconcious also leaves an uncontrolled spirit on a rampage - which given your present status as an unconcious dude puts you in a lot of trouble.

I'm not saying that you can't chanel crawl yourself up to some Force 10 bound spirits and beat the living crap out of whatever bound spirits the opposition might have - I'm saying that your Force 14 idea is overly optimistic.

-Frank
laughingowl
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 20 2007, 04:15 PM)
Aha!  Now to make my lead sorcery guy different from the rest.

The sorcery leader advances slightly different.
[ Spoiler ]


Why does he go for the magic 11?  Well, because, the test for ritual sorcery is 12hrs -  Leaders magic.  Minimum of one hour.  12 - 11 = 1 hour.  The test to detect it is 20-force beginning one hour after the ritual starts.

So, the ritual starts, one spirit is guarding the whole team.  Still force 20 slay (dragon).  All the other 11 spirits are aiding sorcery.  (I couldn't find anywhere that said only 1 spirit may aid sorcery per spell).  So, polls for sorcery members are as follows:
-6 sympathetic + Magic + Ritual Spellcasting + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit 1 + Spirit 2 (One man doesn't get spirit 2, as his is busy guarding).
-6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 + 6 = 37
-6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31
They use edge to reroll failures, 4 of them average 13 hits, with 24 rerolled, for another 8.  21 hits for them.
Last guy gets 10 hits, reroll of 21 dice, gets 7 more, total 17 for him
21 * 4 + 17 = 101 for their casting.

Leader goes, he gets the same kind of pool.  With 11 magic and no spellcasting focus.  Plus edge for exploding 6's, and removing the force limiter.
-6 + 11 + 9 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 6= 34 + 101 = 135 dice.
Average of 45 hits.  22 of which explode for another 7.  Total of 52 hits.  It resolves in one hour, which is when the dragon would get a check to know it was coming.  Dragon gets basic willpower (and counterspelling if its so paranoid to constantly be counterspelling itself) (plus edge, if we feel like being nice) for a 24 dice pool.  Average 8 hits.  4 explode for 1 more.  9 hits total.  52 - 9 = 43.  43 Net hits, + 20 for force of spell = 63P for the dragon.  Done deal.

One problem:

QUOTE (SR4 page 171-2)
A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits,only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force serves as a limiter effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.



QUOTE (SR4 page 67)
You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 56), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.




QUOTE (SR4 page 67)
You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 56), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.


The second quote makes it VERY clear that Edge Dice are the extra dice rolled equal to your edge, NOT all dice that are part of the test (which do become subject to the rule of 6).

Therefore the maximum net hits on your uber ritual casting is 22 (statistical) thought the cap may be theoritcallyuncapped. It is:

Capped at 20 (all dice save edge) + edge dice.

Dont see edge listed on your sample but I will be regenerous and go with seven. Seven dice most likely would get 2.333 hits. We will call it 3. 1.5 of those three would be 6s we will call it 2. Thos two re-rolled will get .666 hits, we will call it one more hit. So probablity of 4 hits with edge dice.

For 24 hits on your spell casting test.

Considering you have managed to erract a force 20 magical lodge somehow (and it cost money and time no karma) then I would presume the dragon has done the same).

Consiering extensive spirit use since they are smart by the players, lets play equal. The dragon being just as smart is VERY likely to say have 6-8 bound spirits (he has money, doesnt have karma to spend, so spirits are one of the best way to get magic help).

unlike the mages who are preparing for one thing our dragon cant totally focus on one thing, but combat spells are clearly one of the largest dangers to the dragon. So say half his potential spirits are 'combat' spirits (whatever his tradition). Being the cautious type he only summoned them at his magic rating (so only stun drain). Given 'high end' non-great dragon, we will go average and say magic 9 so force 9 spirits.

Feeling (heck SEEING) a force 20 spell coming in the dragon aint taken chance, all 4 of the Aid Sorcery (in his lair KNOWING he is going to be attacked, the spirits (all of them) are of course 'called' and not on standby in the metaplanes). This gives him an additional 36 dice (4*9) on his counterspelling.

So we are now at:
Willpower ( 8 ) + Counterspelling ( 8 ) + Edge ( 6 ) + mana barrier (lodge) ( 20 ) + Spirit dice ( 36 ) for a total of: 78 dice.

For an average of 26 hits. Half of which would be 6s for 13 more dice and 4 more hits (2 of which would be 6s but dont get hits) for a total of 30 hits on counterspelling

Nada happens save one dragon is seriously intersted in sending the remaining spirits (up to 4) at force 9 to teach you a lesson / cause problems.


You left one huge astral signature for alot of people to investigate.

A while a dragons lair I dont have a problem with being 40M diameter, did you pay for lifestyle that includes someplace you can set up a 40m diameter lodge to cas this ritual from? (or have you been muttering to yourself for 20 days in a park some place setting up and not gotten run off).

(edite: to keep number from changing to emoticons)
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
Maximum amount of damage before you die is going to be:

Okay -- I burst out laughing when I read that.

This might help for future calculations:

So that luck won't be a factor in the outcome, I'm going to use the 1:3 ratio for hits, always rounding up (ie. if you have only one or two dice in the pool, you'd still get one hit). That will give you utterly predictable results in every case.

Do we need this ruling in the opening post?
ShadowDragon8685
Now here's a question.

12 million nuyen is a whole lot of money. You can hire some pretty beefy things with that kind of nuyen.

What if you hired another dragon (one who already has a beef with the dragon you're going after) to participate in your Alaskan Cheese Cycle of Mana? Let him be the one who's taking the drain, since he has vastly superior stats to begin with.


That said, I still think it would be simpler to just use the nuyen and the karma to create a cheesed-out Hacker/Technomancer who can hack into a Thor Shot sattelite and drop the orbital option.
Tarantula
Laughingowl:

You're right, and I forgot my guy's edge was 7's not 6's.

So, to redo this:
Why does he go for the magic 11? Well, because, the test for ritual sorcery is 12hrs - Leaders magic. Minimum of one hour. 12 - 11 = 1 hour. The test to detect it is 20-force beginning one hour after the ritual starts.

So, the ritual starts, one spirit is guarding the whole team. Still force 20 slay (dragon). All the other 11 spirits are aiding sorcery. (I couldn't find anywhere that said only 1 spirit may aid sorcery per spell). So, polls for sorcery members are as follows:
-6 sympathetic + Magic + Ritual Spellcasting + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit 1 + Spirit 2 (One man doesn't get spirit 2, as his is busy guarding).
-6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 + 6 = 37
-6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31
They use edge to reroll failures, 4 of them average 13 hits, with 24 rerolled, for another 8. 21 hits for them.
Last guy gets 10 hits, reroll of 21 dice, gets 7 more, total 17 for him
21 * 4 + 17 = 101 for their casting.

Leader goes, he gets the same kind of pool. With 11 magic and no spellcasting focus. Plus edge for exploding 6's, and removing the force limiter on his edge dice alone.
-6 + 11 + 9 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 7= 34 + 101 = 135 dice.
Average of 45 hits. 22 of which explode for another 7. Total of 52 hits. His 7 edge dice average to 2 hits, with it unlikely to get another on exploding.

This is a good time to ask WHEN force limits successes on spellcasting. Since it is an opposed test, does it limit it before or after opposition. If AFTER, then with 52 hits total, unless the dragon can get 52 counterspelling hits, it'll go through with the remainder.

If BEFORE then its limitted to 22 (on average) hits. This means the dragon only needs 22 hits on a counterspelling test.

It resolves in one hour, which is when the dragon would get a check to know it was coming. So, until this point, the dragon has no idea that major magic mojo is on its way to him. When he gets the chance to check, he gets hit by it.

Now, Dragon gets basic willpower (and counterspelling if its so paranoid to constantly be counterspelling itself) (plus edge, if we feel like being nice) for a 24 dice pool. Average 8 hits. 4 explode for 1 more. 9 hits total. 9 is not > 52 NOR is it bigger than 22. Therefore dragon takes 20 + 43 (Or 13)P for a net hit of 63P (Or 33P).

He doesn't get the chance to see or know the spell is coming in any way shape or form. (It resolves in 1 hour, and at 1 hour is when you get a check to notice ritual magic.) I doubt he'd have his spirits aiding sorcery for him, but we'll assume he is (at the cost of a service every sunrise/sunset.)

So, assuming he's doing it, you get 8 will + 8 counterspelling + 8 edge + 20 lodge + 36 aid sorcery = 80 dice. Average of 26 hits. 13 reroll for 4 more hits. Total of 30 hits counterspelling.

Again, back to when are the hits capped. Before, or after the test?

If, BEFORE, then 22 hits. vs 30. Spell is countered.

If, AFTER, 52 hits, vs 30. Spell comes through with 22 net hits. Dragon takes 42P.

Sure, each character has spent a grand total of 5,500Â¥. Leaving them with 9,994,500Â¥ remaining. x6 that gives you 59,967,000Â¥. They can buy 5 permanent luxury lifestyles that way. Or, alternately, buy 9 permanent High life styles each.

Again, I will call attention to the fact that the spell RESOLVES in 1 hour. The test to notice ritual magic occurs at 1 hour. Therefore, when the dragon gets to test to notice it, it hits. Theres also nothing that prevents them from targetting the dragon's lodge with a manabolt as well.

Oh, and to your point about the dragon sending his force 9 spirits back at me. Well, they bounce off my force 20 lodge just as well.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
You are positting getting the maximum possible benefit from an Increase Body spell. That's... highly improbable given the forces you are throwing around. In your example you are going from Force 13 to Force 14. But that means that you have a Force 13 spirit channeled (where your body is 23, and your augmented maximum is 34). This requires you to get 11 hits on a Force 23 Increase Body spell - while technically possible for some characters, taking it as given is absurd.


If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. The channeled spirit is bound, and it ain't going anywhere as long as you don't do something that would trigger a service, right? (FWIW, for this exercise, I am not assuming a 24 hour limit)

(In fact, with the appropriate combination of sorcery skill, aid sorcery, and foci, it's not even improbable.)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
t any binding which doesn't instantly kill you is acceptable. That's... unlikely to be true. While Augmentation's advanced wound rules aren't out yet, there's still the fact that an initial binding which leaves you unconcious also leaves an uncontrolled spirit on a rampage - which given your present status as an unconcious dude puts you in a lot of trouble.


Why can't you bind the spirit from one side of a powerful ward? I mean, isn't that SOP around here for most folks?
ShadowDragon8685
Don't forget that the 12,000,00 nuyen.gif figure is the resources, not the reward.
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