Wow, lots here, and it's not things that can be rushed. I'll be back in a couple of hours, post some answers then.
In the meantime, it looks as though there are at least half a dozen potential spinoffs, if people want to open those.
(Anyone up for an SR4 system v. d20 thread? I don't think we've done that before for SR4 specifically -- and the new Edge/HoG rules should make that discussion much more interesting.)
Full Version: Dragon challenge
Why do we even need to compare both systems? They are good for whatever they are intended to do, and all we might accomplish is to call anybody else a powergamer, a hack-n-slayer, a min-maxer and all those other unneccessary things.
| QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Jul 19 2007, 08:33 PM) |
| Why do we even need to compare both systems? They are good for whatever they are intended to do, and all we might accomplish is to call anybody else a powergamer, a hack-n-slayer, a min-maxer and all those other unneccessary things. |
Oo oo, let's start THAT argument again! I'll go first: <ahem> You munchkin!
Ok now you spawn at least three more threads so we can discuss it.
| QUOTE (laughingowl @ Jul 19 2007, 07:17 PM) |
| 1) Divination: a) How are you assensing the dragon to perform the divination and/or what material link are you using. b) "She may then ask one question about an EVENT in the subject's future - divination is only useful in answering questions about events, not personal details or histories." No getting maps of the lair, no getting passcodes, no getting (you get the idea). Add in vague and cryptic and how your word your question becomes real imporant. 'Will the dragon leave the lair today" (yep she astral projected to the meta planes, to catch up with an old flame). |
It's easy to frame questions in the form of events. For example, "What would someone see if they walked into that room?" Remember that the Divining power isn't a Magic 8 Ball, it can give you visions and images as well as yes/no/true/false answers.
You have a good point about needing to assense the target or have a material link. However, I would think that in order to get a complete reading about the bunker it would be a matter of "walking the divination" one step at a time. There's no limit to the number of times you can use Divining and there's no drain.
Start with "What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?" After you get an image of the room beyond, ask "What would someone see if they went through that door on the other side of the room?". And so on until a complete map was made. From there you would drill down on the details. "What would happen if someone were to open that door?" "What would happen if I was to walk into the middle of that room?" "What would happen if someone shot a gun in that room?" And so on until all the defenses were mapped.
Of course, this is assuming you are getting enough successes with your Divining rolls. If you roll badly (and the GM should roll these in secret), you may get a lot of random frightened facial expressions, visions of light switches, and other useless noise.
Divining is wicked powerful. After some practice with Divining, you could be emperor of the galaxy one day...
No, never useless noise. The truly evil GM responds to such attempts at cheese by having the vision show them exactly what's on the other side of the door, but symbolicly. And you make sure all of the symbols translate to possible things inside the room.
You give them a picture of a room that looks nothing like the room they're asking about but can be metaphorically translated into the other room. And whatever you do, you never give them an exact picture of the room. Divining doesn't do that.
You give them a picture of a room that looks nothing like the room they're asking about but can be metaphorically translated into the other room. And whatever you do, you never give them an exact picture of the room. Divining doesn't do that.
Again, I throw my troll archer for your alternate scenarios. He can put arrows through a limo (also, only great dragons can go human form). And he can drop the dragon on average in one hit. Same with the Mr. Pibb dragon. (I think, didn't run it against the eastern dragon stats, but I'm assuming they're pretty much the same.)
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 19 2007, 09:24 PM) |
| No, never useless noise. The truly evil GM responds to such attempts at cheese by having the vision show them exactly what's on the other side of the door, but symbolicly. And you make sure all of the symbols translate to possible things inside the room. You give them a picture of a room that looks nothing like the room they're asking about but can be metaphorically translated into the other room. And whatever you do, you never give them an exact picture of the room. Divining doesn't do that. |
Yes, a low success roll gives you cryptic noise. You only get misleading or incorrect information if you glitch the roll. Even if the carpet is a different color or the drapes aren't completely wrong or you see a crossbow instead of a gun turret, you'll still get a good map of the complex and know the defenses with high enough rolls.
It's not "cheese" Jimmy, that's how Divining works, feel free to read the description again. By the way Jimmy, in the future try not to be such a troll. The forums will be a better place for it. Talia, can you lend me your spazzing banner because I'm totally going to spaz on this guy.
| QUOTE (Buster @ Jul 20 2007, 02:13 AM) |
| You have a good point about needing to assense the target or have a material link. However, I would think that in order to get a complete reading about the bunker it would be a matter of "walking the divination" one step at a time. There's no limit to the number of times you can use Divining and there's no drain. Start with "What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?" After you get an image of the room beyond, ask "What would someone see if they went through that door on the other side of the room?". And so on until a complete map was made. From there you would drill down on the details. "What would happen if someone were to open that door?" "What would happen if I was to walk into the middle of that room?" "What would happen if someone shot a gun in that room?" And so on until all the defenses were mapped. Of course, this is assuming you are getting enough successes with your Divining rolls. If you roll badly (and the GM should roll these in secret), you may get a lot of random frightened facial expressions, visions of light switches, and other useless noise. Divining is wicked powerful. After some practice with Divining, you could be emperor of the galaxy one day... |
| QUOTE (SM page 56) |
Subsequent divination on the same subject matter increase the threshold by +1 per attempt until the gamemaster deems that something significant about the situation or subject has changed |
So lets see here your example:
"What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?"
(First we will presume that you somehow know what that blast door is).
Comapre it to the divination table
Vague (Are my old enemies catching up to me) theshold 1
General (Will I get hurt if I go on this next shadowrun) threshold 2
Specific (Will Mr. Johnson take a bribe from Yakashima) threshold 3
Very Specific (Is Mr. Johnson picking up his bribe this evening) theshold 4
I honestly would say your question is very specific, though could be talked into being nice and called is specific.
So threshold of 3
Now if you want to be very nitpicking and mean (though I wouldnt here)
| QUOTE |
| The intiate enters a mild tance (-2 dice pool modicer to ALL actions). She may then ask one question about an event in the subjects future- divination is ony useful in answering questions about events, not personal details or histories. |
Well nitpick hat on... All divination are at -2 dice pool.... since it is an action.... though I would say in spirit that is all actions SAVE for the divination.
Anyways back to actual rulings.
I would be very strongly pressed to rule that what you SEE is personal details / history.
Now "If I go through these blastdoors would I be in a room or a hallway" would be a valid question about an event (going through the doors). Also note technically this example the subject would be the one walking through the doors so no need to even have link to dragon.
But we will over look that and go with your question:
"What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?"
Ok:
One net hit = cryptic reply containg underlying truth
Two net hits = Answer is mildly helpful
Three or more = achieve approximate level of detailed desired.
So statistically you are looking at needing 6 hits or 18 dice (24 actually just trading in)
No listed power or ware adds dice to awakened skills (arcana) so max here is 7.
The best natural maximum for logic is 9 (10 with quality) would make the best augment logic 15. So maximum dice pool for Divination (ro players, sprits with power are seperate discussion but each divination would be a service with drain, cost, etc) 22.
22 is enough statistically to get an answer close to what you want (for atleast the first divination).
Well since you didnt define someone, we will presume Joe Averageman.
"You have a vague impression of the doors you have seen photos of (how you got the doors for the question), you then slide through them with the distinct impression of a solid thump behind you of massive vault closing. Your vision is filled with inky blackness with the occasional flickering of light seen in the corners of your vision."
(Joe Averageman does have vision enchancements. Dragon aint expecting anyone, lights off in the mantrap)
Would be the exact answer I would give you on your roll since it is clearly abusing the intent:
| QUOTE (SM page 56) |
| Regardless of the number of hits achieved, the gamemaster should adjsut the answer to be as specific or vague as suits the story and to maintain drama. |
| QUOTE |
| Gamemasters should allow leeway for the characters to receive hints and probablities rather than hard facts. |
It is very clear what the intent is.
Is the dragon home today... would be a very good question before hitting his lair.
Is the dragon going toleave today would also be a good question.
A million divination to map out the lair is an abuse and will be treated as such and the core rules do NOT support it.
but any way you stretch it, you arent mapping out anybody home with divination!
Edit: fixed quote code, and also refernce as mentioned it is even worse then the above, as the maxium logic is 10 WITH augmentation.... so maximum divination pool of 17 (+6 for edge occasionally)
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 20 2007, 02:40 AM) |
| (also, only great dragons can go human form) |
All dragons are magicians and know 'most spells'
Not hard to assume shapechange is one of those...
Now that body within two of yours hurts...
But a very buff troll / ork is possible....
Nor is it hard to belive dragons dont have a verision that allows to go to a smaller body rating. (I belive the main reason for that spell is to prevent people from shapeshifting into LARGER body creatures to become soak monsters (or just behomeths).
I certainly see nothing wrong with a Shape Dragon to Human SPELL that works around the body limitiations, and think it would be fairly common among the normal (aint nothing lesser about them) dragons.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Again, I throw my troll archer for your alternate scenarios. He can put arrows through a limo (also, only great dragons can go human form). And he can drop the dragon on average in one hit. Same with the Mr. Pibb dragon. (I think, didn't run it against the eastern dragon stats, but I'm assuming they're pretty much the same.) |
That's pretty reasonable, he's great for either scenario.
He is challenged by the fact that the dragon is going to probably go first in either scenario. In the robbery there is also the problem where being "the troll who shoots rebar through things" makes it quite likely the mob can track you down. In the sabotage, there is the problem that the troll archer isn't super good at messing up a soda plant. His attacks, while impressive, are kind of retail.
So bottom line: he needs someone to pull overwatch to delay the dragon until you fire the black arrow. Further, you need someone to clean up after you (for the first mission), and someone to pull the heavy demo duty in the second.
But he's a solid first man. If he survives the dragon's initial mana blast, he can kill the dragon as soon as his turn comes around. Also, he can run fast and is stealthy and athletic enough to get into either facility.
-Frank
just to nitpick, the largest natural logic a player will get is 7. the augmented max is 10.
so that arcana dicepool drops to a 'mere' 17, though of course you can always spend edge.
so that arcana dicepool drops to a 'mere' 17, though of course you can always spend edge.
But wouldn't bioware count for a divination test?
Sure, in fact bioware (or magic) is the only way to get ( Logic 10 ) in the first place.
| QUOTE (Buster @ Jul 20 2007, 02:46 AM) |
| Yes, a low success roll gives you cryptic noise. You only get misleading or incorrect information if you glitch the roll. Even if the carpet is a different color or the drapes aren't completely wrong or you see a crossbow instead of a gun turret, you'll still get a good map of the complex and know the defenses with high enough rolls. It's not "cheese" Jimmy, that's how Divining works, feel free to read the description again. By the way Jimmy, in the future try not to be such a troll. The forums will be a better place for it. Talia, can you lend me your spazzing banner because I'm totally going to spaz on this guy. |
I suggest you might want to take you own advise:
Once again:
| QUOTE |
| Regardless of number of hits achieved the gamemaster should adjust the answer to be as specific or vague as suits the story and to maintain drama |
| QUOTE |
| Gamemasters should allow leeway for characters to recieve hitns and probablities rather than hard facts |
| QUOTE |
| divination is only useful in answering questions about events, not personal deatils or histories |
| QUOTE |
| reveals flimpses and flashes of what the future may hold -- almost always couched in enigmatic symbolism and metaphor appropriate to the diviners magical paradigm and cosmology |
What you see if a personal detail!
You never will get hard facts!
If your question was allowed: (ignoring the third point above)
3+ hits:
You have visions of the entrance to a castle of old mighty porticulis at each end, spear thrusting through the walls and great gouts of flaming oil pouring from above. The weight of great despair and anguish fall over you. The room seems tiny as you try to avoid the thursting spears, flying arrrows, and gouts of fire, yet the far end seem ever so distant under these perils. It catches you by no surprise when the floor drops away to reveal huge teeth with bodies impaled upon them. Somehow in the end you reach the far doors only to bang on them in frustration as nothing you can do budges them, they seem to be made from the very stone of the mountain. As you finally subcumb the heavens open up and you see your gloating enemy above you.
[ Spoiler ]
A very good and information filled 'vision' of what you would see if you went through the doors and would certainly require 3+ net hits on the roll, but hardly what would allow you to map out the lair and even trying to guage the lair this way those +1 thresholds are going to add up fast.
Edit: Fixed quotes dang I never can type the quote code correctly
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| just to nitpick, the largest natural logic a player will get is 7. the augmented max is 10. so that arcana dicepool drops to a 'mere' 17, though of course you can always spend edge. |
Yeah stupid mental slip to SR3..
You stupid misread on the meta-human chart, read the augmented maximum as being the natural maximum.... thought the number seemed a little high.
| QUOTE (Buster @ Jul 19 2007, 09:46 PM) | ||
Yes, a low success roll gives you cryptic noise. You only get misleading or incorrect information if you glitch the roll. Even if the carpet is a different color or the drapes aren't completely wrong or you see a crossbow instead of a gun turret, you'll still get a good map of the complex and know the defenses with high enough rolls. It's not "cheese" Jimmy, that's how Divining works, feel free to read the description again. By the way Jimmy, in the future try not to be such a troll. The forums will be a better place for it. Talia, can you lend me your spazzing banner because I'm totally going to spaz on this guy. |
"Regardless of the number of hits achieved, the
gamemaster should adjust the answer to be as specific or vague
as suits the story and to maintain drama."
Also, "what would he see?" may be a valid question in your mind, but that doesn't make it something that's actually related to events. If you're the GM, go for it. If not, I wouldn't count on it.
Also, where are you getting your meterial link to the room in the dragon's lair? You're obviously not assensing it or it wouldn't matter. You might trick a slow-witted GM into believing that your question is actually about the person, but since it's blatantly requesting information about aplace I wouldn't fall for it.
Spaz away and make troll accusations if it makes you feel better. I'd rather discuss the subject at hand.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Sure, in fact bioware (or magic) is the only way to get ( Logic 10 ) in the first place. |
Actually, I'm a little fuzzy on the new rules, is this a correct build?
Logic 6 (natural)
Exceptional Attribute = Logic 7
Cerebral Booster 3 = Logic 10
Increased Mental Attribute spell force 15 = Logic 15
Is that the best Logic you can get? Is that the only way you can get Logic 15?
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 19 2007, 10:35 PM) |
| I'd rather discuss the subject at hand. |
That's fine, just don't start any trollishness. (no offense Frank
)
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
Actually, I'm a little fuzzy on the new rules, is this a correct build? Logic 6 (natural) Exceptional Attribute = Logic 7 Cerebral Booster 3 = Logic 10 Increased Mental Attribute spell force 15 = Logic 15 Is that the best Logic you can get? Is that the only way you can get Logic 15? |
No. Both Increase Logic and the Cerebral Booster add up against the augmented maximum.
The only way to get a Logic 15 is to summn a Force 15 Spirit.
-Frank
Ah nuts. My build collapses under the weight of its own ambition.
A Divining focus would be great, but they don't exist so no help there (an enchanted Magic 8 Ball would have been classic).
A Divining focus would be great, but they don't exist so no help there (an enchanted Magic 8 Ball would have been classic).
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 19 2007, 10:42 PM) |
| The only way to get a Logic 15 is to summn a Force 15 Spirit. -Frank |
Not exactly true.
If you channel a force 10 spirit, you can augment up to 15 with a spell.
(Of course, this is for everything except resisting powers and spells, and good luck with summoning/binding that force 10 spirit in the first place...)
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| My opinion was based on the rules. In the D&D system, the chances of some low level characters slaying an adult dragon are minimal. |
yes, but even without the strongly-defined matching of opponents, there is still too wide an array of possible motivations for a discussion of them to be useful in d20. if you were limiting your discussion to dragons from a single game world, like Eberron, that would be one thing, but otherwise the mechanical aspect is the only aspect that can be discussed meaningfully. so it's not really fair to say that discussion is what differentiates d20 from SR.
Okay, you guys are officially scary. 
First of all, I've been thinking about that alternate scenario that was proposed -- the dragon that was fired, and the company which hires the runners to take out the dragon.
This scenario introduces a major imbalance. Specifically, it is in the company's interest, in that case, to provide the runners with every piece of information it has about the dragon -- while at the same time the dragon will not have the same information about the runners. Anyone who has ever done legwork prior to a run will testify to the value of this.
The current scenario allows the runners to know the skill/ability/etc range of a dragon of that type, and at the same time it allows the dragon -- assuming it is able to identify the general types and numbers making up the party -- to know the same of the runners. This knowledge is represented accurately by common access to the two rulebooks.
Detailed step-by-step replies in the next post.
First of all, I've been thinking about that alternate scenario that was proposed -- the dragon that was fired, and the company which hires the runners to take out the dragon.
This scenario introduces a major imbalance. Specifically, it is in the company's interest, in that case, to provide the runners with every piece of information it has about the dragon -- while at the same time the dragon will not have the same information about the runners. Anyone who has ever done legwork prior to a run will testify to the value of this.
The current scenario allows the runners to know the skill/ability/etc range of a dragon of that type, and at the same time it allows the dragon -- assuming it is able to identify the general types and numbers making up the party -- to know the same of the runners. This knowledge is represented accurately by common access to the two rulebooks.
Detailed step-by-step replies in the next post.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| The only way to get a Logic 15 is to summn a Force 15 Spirit. -Frank |
No no no...
You just convince you GM to let you play a western dragon (base logic 10) augmented with a delta-grade cerebral booster rating 5 (logic 15 (1.5* base logic)
and yes I dearly apologize for everyone I confused with my mis-calcultion.
Maximum logic for all player races is 6 (7 with exceptional attribute).
Augmented maximum is 9 (10 if exceptional attribute).
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
He is challenged by the fact that the dragon is going to probably go first in either scenario. In the robbery there is also the problem where being "the troll who shoots rebar through things" makes it quite likely the mob can track you down. In the sabotage, there is the problem that the troll archer isn't super good at messing up a soda plant. His attacks, while impressive, are kind of retail. |
Edge helps him to go first, and, as long as he has good counterspelling (which, using the other characters allowed, wouldn't be too hard), either the dragon is busy killing the mages doing the counterspelling, or hes attacking my troll. Note: Trolls armor is 12/10. If the dragon does a natural weapon attack (his only option without taking out the mages, which lets the troll put him down), then this happens. Dragon gets 15 dice (7 agi + 6 skill + 2 reach), for melee. Troll takes full defense, and gets 14 (6 reaction + 4 dodge + 4 dodge). Chances are, they tie, and that goes to the troll. Next AP, dragon attacks, troll does the same, and nothing happens. Next AP, troll shoots the dragon, cause dragons out of APs.
As to the mob tracking him, all he needs to do is pick up a ghoul contact, and pick up the bodies.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| So bottom line: he needs someone to pull overwatch to delay the dragon until you fire the black arrow. Further, you need someone to clean up after you (for the first mission), and someone to pull the heavy demo duty in the second. |
Yes, he needs a counterspeller/anti-magic guy. Note: I only spent 142 karma. Dump some of the rest into demolitions skills, or make a demolitions expert on the team.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| But he's a solid first man. If he survives the dragon's initial mana blast, he can kill the dragon as soon as his turn comes around. Also, he can run fast and is stealthy and athletic enough to get into either facility. |
Which is why we pair him up with a stealthy anti-magic man.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| -Frank |
-Tarantula
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Edge helps him to go first, and, as long as he has good counterspelling (which, using the other characters allowed, wouldn't be too hard), either the dragon is busy killing the mages doing the counterspelling, or hes attacking my troll. Note: Trolls armor is 12/10. If the dragon does a natural weapon attack (his only option without taking out the mages, which lets the troll put him down), then this happens. Dragon gets 15 dice (7 agi + 6 skill + 2 reach), for melee. Troll takes full defense, and gets 14 (6 reaction + 4 dodge + 4 dodge). Chances are, they tie, and that goes to the troll. Next AP, dragon attacks, troll does the same, and nothing happens. Next AP, troll shoots the dragon, cause dragons out of APs. |
Bahh physical attack.
Influence: Dragons Magic + charisma (~18) versus troll's willpower (7 maximum)
"I have bribed the mage to kill you instead, though I dislike being bothered and would rather not pay him. Kill him and I will let you walk out of here"
Odds are troll goes before mage....
Odds are if troll can kill dragon, mage doesn stand a chance
Is this build correct?
Darth Sidious, the master of divining:
Logic 6
Exception Attribute = Logic 7
Cerebral Booster (3) or Increased Mental Attribute spell (10) = Logic 10
Arcana 6
Aptitude = Arcana 7
Initiate Grade 4
So that's 10 + 7 + 4 = 21 dice all the time without using Edge. That's enough (on average) to get very detailed information on a very specific question.
I'm not sure but you might be able to specialize in Arcana in Divining for another 2 dice to the roll.
Maybe he's an Adept or Mystic Adept and doesn't want to do anything else with his life except divine the future, so he could have:
Improved Ability (Arcana) up to +10 (not sure though, isn't Arcana supposed to be a Technical Active skill because mundanes can do it?)
Analytics up to +10
That's 43 dice on the Divining test! (and he can't do anything with all that knowledge about the future...)
You could forget learning Divining yourself and have an Ally do it:
Force 12 with the Divining power and Arcana 12 would give you 24 divining dice all the time. It'd cost you all your bonus karma though...
Darth Sidious, the master of divining:
Logic 6
Exception Attribute = Logic 7
Cerebral Booster (3) or Increased Mental Attribute spell (10) = Logic 10
Arcana 6
Aptitude = Arcana 7
Initiate Grade 4
So that's 10 + 7 + 4 = 21 dice all the time without using Edge. That's enough (on average) to get very detailed information on a very specific question.
I'm not sure but you might be able to specialize in Arcana in Divining for another 2 dice to the roll.
Maybe he's an Adept or Mystic Adept and doesn't want to do anything else with his life except divine the future, so he could have:
Improved Ability (Arcana) up to +10 (not sure though, isn't Arcana supposed to be a Technical Active skill because mundanes can do it?)
Analytics up to +10
That's 43 dice on the Divining test! (and he can't do anything with all that knowledge about the future...)
You could forget learning Divining yourself and have an Ally do it:
Force 12 with the Divining power and Arcana 12 would give you 24 divining dice all the time. It'd cost you all your bonus karma though...
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Bahh physical attack. Influence: Dragons Magic + charisma (~18) versus troll's willpower (7 maximum) "I have bribed the mage to kill you instead, though I dislike being bothered and would rather not pay him. Kill him and I will let you walk out of here" Odds are troll goes before mage.... Odds are if troll can kill dragon, mage doesn stand a chance |
Magic eh? Counterspeller counters it. Done.
It's hardly a done deal. The dragon could potentially attack with combat, illusion, or manipulation spells, and the counterspeller is only providing a base dice pool of her Counterspelling skill.
So at core, every team member is being subjected to an attack against an Attribute of theirs + the Counterspelling of the team's aegis. It's actually quite a difficult problem as many spells can drop the entire team if they provide even a single net hit.
--
The counter speller is capable of some scary stuff - he'll have Shielding, and a mentor spirit, teamwork, and a shielding focus most likely - which is all great. But the dragon is rolling 18 dice, rerolling his failures, and negating the Edge spent by the counter speller. It's actually quite nasty as attacks go, and I am not aware of anything in the game that would be able to write that off easily.
So primarily what you're after is setting yourself up to win initiative and spend the edge to really go first. Failing that, be out of LOS for the dragon. Which is really hard in those scenarios. Failing that, you want to have some people miraculously survive the Force 11 Manaball backed up with 10 hits.
But it's a long shot. The "draw" situation in neutral territory is actually really hard because the dragon comes equipped with area effecting death magic, a large Edge, and a very very high initiative score.
-Frank
So at core, every team member is being subjected to an attack against an Attribute of theirs + the Counterspelling of the team's aegis. It's actually quite a difficult problem as many spells can drop the entire team if they provide even a single net hit.
--
The counter speller is capable of some scary stuff - he'll have Shielding, and a mentor spirit, teamwork, and a shielding focus most likely - which is all great. But the dragon is rolling 18 dice, rerolling his failures, and negating the Edge spent by the counter speller. It's actually quite nasty as attacks go, and I am not aware of anything in the game that would be able to write that off easily.
So primarily what you're after is setting yourself up to win initiative and spend the edge to really go first. Failing that, be out of LOS for the dragon. Which is really hard in those scenarios. Failing that, you want to have some people miraculously survive the Force 11 Manaball backed up with 10 hits.
But it's a long shot. The "draw" situation in neutral territory is actually really hard because the dragon comes equipped with area effecting death magic, a large Edge, and a very very high initiative score.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| Is this build correct? Darth Sidious, the master of divining: Logic 6 Exception Attribute = Logic 7 Cerebral Booster (3) or Increased Mental Attribute spell (10) = Logic 10 Arcana 6 Aptitude = Arcana 7 Initiate Grade 4 So that's 10 + 7 + 4 = 21 dice all the time without using Edge. That's enough (on average) to get very detailed information on a very specific question. I'm not sure but you might be able to specialize in Arcana in Divining for another 2 dice to the roll. Maybe he's an Adept or Mystic Adept and doesn't want to do anything else with his life except divine the future, so he could have: Improved Ability (Arcana) up to +10 (not sure though, isn't Arcana supposed to be a Technical Active skill because mundanes can do it?) Analytics up to +10 That's 43 dice on the Divining test! (and he can't do anything with all that knowledge about the future...) You could forget learning Divining yourself and have an Ally do it: Force 12 with the Divining power and Arcana 12 would give you 24 divining dice all the time. It'd cost you all your bonus karma though... |
Imrpoved ability wouldnt work: Arcana is a 'awakened skills' per the section title in SM. Same as Active, Technical, Knowledge, etc in main book.
Nothing as of yet improves 'awakened skills' (arcana and enchanting).
Don't see the -2 dice for sustaing spells. So how is the Increased mental attribute spell (10) being sustained (or lower magic to 9 if bioware) (though that only drops a few points of analytics which I might allow to help (mixxed feelings: is the roll to see how well you deduce the symbols in the vision, or how well you 'do the ceremony' thing to get the vision. Analytics doesnt help you casting a spell even if you are a hermatic mage.
As to the ally .. umm. how do you get a force 12 ally.
If doing it all at once.
That means you have to soak: 2 * hits on 12 dice (summoning) followed immediately by 2* hits on 24 dice (binding). so even if you could somehow beat the ally on the summoning / binding test... the drain is going to kill you.
If you start with a weaker then upgrade.
Each force point then costs 16 karma. (so so 5 *16 = 80 karma alone to go from force 7 to 12) (and not sure you coud summon a force 7 spirit and then immediately do a force 7 binding and win..
and you still would have to survive 2* hits on 24 dice (average
or 16 physical drain! presuming you actually can beat the spirit at the test.
First: Unless he's a great dragon, he can't negate any edge. So, at best, its the dragon's 18 dice rerolled failures, versus the counterspellers however many dice rerolled failures. So that leaves someone to roll up a counterspeller with all the buffs to it they can.
As always, backing beyond my earlier mega-post to make sure that there's nothing I missed (I hope!).
First off: once we complete this one, I promise to have an up-front battle with a non-great dragon. (I draw the line at a full-out political contexts/open time limit scenario. It's not a run, and that kind of scenario can't help but become one.) Do bear in mind that in an accidental meeting no one will have more than standard defences, even to the point of having to draw weapons you wouldn't naturally have out. (You don't go around on the streets continually carrying your gun in your hand.) In short, you won't be able to be already set up for that one. Nobody debates that any living thing caught out in the open can be killed in a true ambush. That's not the point people with dragon-killing bows are trying to make anyway -- right?
But please: no more mention of the stand-up battle until we finish this one.
As a general note: I'll remind that in the first post I did specify higher end non-great western dragon.
First off: once we complete this one, I promise to have an up-front battle with a non-great dragon. (I draw the line at a full-out political contexts/open time limit scenario. It's not a run, and that kind of scenario can't help but become one.) Do bear in mind that in an accidental meeting no one will have more than standard defences, even to the point of having to draw weapons you wouldn't naturally have out. (You don't go around on the streets continually carrying your gun in your hand.) In short, you won't be able to be already set up for that one. Nobody debates that any living thing caught out in the open can be killed in a true ambush. That's not the point people with dragon-killing bows are trying to make anyway -- right?
But please: no more mention of the stand-up battle until we finish this one.
As a general note: I'll remind that in the first post I did specify higher end non-great western dragon.
| QUOTE (Crisp) | ||
And how does it know that? All we know is that it's a Western Dragon. Period. We have almost no other information yet it even knows the day we're coming for it? |
If it becomes aware of significant hostile intent which has the potential to kill it, its natural instinct would take it to its lair. If it is already in its lair and becomes aware of activity outside its lair, it knows the day of that activity: ie. it's happening "now". Normal paranoia suggests that uninvited activity might bode ill. If it Detects Enemies, it's not too much of a logic stretch to guess that those enemies consider themselves to be capable of killing a dragon -- and thus to be respected. If it turns out to be wrong and the enemies are just the usual dragon bait after all: well, snacks are never out of place.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| "Hey boss this elf says that you should go outside and take a nap. I think it's a really good idea. I'd like to join you if that's OK." (dragon summons a spirit of man to slap their lacky upside the head) |
Did anyone else suddenly get the image of Jabba the Hutt, at the beginning of Return of the Jedi?
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Remember that dragons can fly, so expect to have to be able to get to the top of really tall vertical shafts with sheer walls. Or maybe even walls covered in a waterfall of acid, monowire, or something else you don't want to climb on. |
You're right, I probably should have done more with this on the outside. Then again, blast doors at ground level (albeit with a steep hill lead-in) doesn't scream "Dragon here!" quite as loudly. Which leads logically to sunnyside's question:
| QUOTE |
| Actually OP could you say what the entrance to the lair is like? I've been assuming a cliff or at least up on a mountain, others are assuming it's on the ground. Still others assume they can get to the entrance without impediment. |
From the satellite pictures and every composite you can get of the area (some are outdated):
More than a hill, less than a mountain, fairly steep and craggy on all sides, rising out of a large (multiple football field large), generally flat area with a few odd pine and spruce trees rooted in the thin soil cover. (Possibly an old beaver meadow.) Close by the beginning of the crag on the side with the blast door, a roughly circular space can be seen: analysis suggests reinforced concrete or something similar, and also burn marks can be identified on the concrete and also on the grass at its edge. A small dirt road leads from the circle up the crag, ending after two zigzags at the blast doors: which are about 60 foot above the level of the flat space. (The crag itself is much higher.) The blast doors themselves are -- well, many of us have mentioned War Games, so about a third the size of those. They swing outward, but are obviously closed now.
@ sunnyside -- you can't tell what the background count is from the sat photos. However, the growth around appears normal: and extreme background counts might affect it.
Is that enough detail? If not, ask, specifically as possible, and I'll tell you anything you can tell from the sat photos. Beyond that, you'll have to add how you are getting the information.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| Talia - I respect your intention here, but don't you realise that when you try to turn it back to "the team arrive at the lair, what do you do?" that you're not wrestling with a bunch of recalcitrant dumpshockers. You're pitting yourself against the structure of the Shadowrun game itself. In asking people to give up on these things, you're asking for an implicit acceptance that success or failure depend on something other than context. And that isn't so. |
Appreciate the sentiment, knasser -- but apparently the scenario in isolation seems to be enough to have posted through yet another page while I'm working through these replies!
(Btw -- campaign-wise, I agree with you. You've seen my other posts, you know I'm heavily motivation- and context-oriented. But the original statements weren't, and so the scenario which tests them also isn't.)
I've addressed why I'm not using Buster's scenario. (Sorry, Buster.)
I haven't addressed Frank Trollman's scenarios, but do so now. "Finding" the party, for a dragon, wouldn't be a physical encounter: not with its senses and its intelligence. Both scenarios have the team absolutely ready for anything, while the dragon just charges in. (Okay, in the first it casts a single spell first -- and that not among its best choices.) Very, very biased in favour of the team. Teams can plan and prep and monitor radio traffic and scout -- but dragons just charge in?
One page of reply catch-up to go!
Also sense all dragons are magicians and have sapience power, all dragons can learn metamagic / initiate.
Dragons are equal + to characters by definition (IMO). so they got karma....
A dragon worth his salt would take quickening IMO.
Sure for shadowrunners, others may be more important but:
Dragons don't have to worry about wards disrupting their quickened spells... THEY are dual-natured either they are allowed through or they break through (and their spells with them).
Go with the average dragon (magic 9 6 +3 (on d6).
First karma dragon gets initiate: and taken quickening.
Second karma dragon gets:
Quickned Detect Enemies (extened area) Force 18.
Drain = 12 physical, even if dragon gets ONCE sucess he fine (and edge will get him one).
Now the dragon gets (spellcasting hits capped at 18) sucesses on a perception test to notice anyone withing 9 (magic) * 18 (force) * 10 meters = 1,620 meters.
Now this would be very important for the dragon so he would have spent edge on the casting.
So Spellcasting ( + Magic (9) + 6 (edge) = 23 dice (not counting foci,etc and pretty sure dragon would waste a spirit to aid but will leave that out).
23 dice means (will give him some unamed (foci, aspected domain in lair, or whatever, +1) and call it 24 dice.
8 hits, 4 of them 6s which re-roll for another hit, 9 hits.
Characters get willpower+counterspelling dice .. be very generous and call it 17 (10 willpower + 7 counterspelling (or less stats and initiation on mage). If every character on the team has edge and every character on team spends edge (to resist some unknown something) then potienally the 24 dice the dragon has and equal to his, but almost certainly less.
There is a very good chance the dragon has good details (up to the equivilant of: "The troll is your contact, monica and she wounded being chased by three ork gangers" (from their example of detect life), as soon as you are within half a mile of him, and as long as you stay there.
Catching a dragon flat-footed doesnt happen very often
Dragons are equal + to characters by definition (IMO). so they got karma....
A dragon worth his salt would take quickening IMO.
Sure for shadowrunners, others may be more important but:
Dragons don't have to worry about wards disrupting their quickened spells... THEY are dual-natured either they are allowed through or they break through (and their spells with them).
Go with the average dragon (magic 9 6 +3 (on d6).
First karma dragon gets initiate: and taken quickening.
Second karma dragon gets:
Quickned Detect Enemies (extened area) Force 18.
Drain = 12 physical, even if dragon gets ONCE sucess he fine (and edge will get him one).
Now the dragon gets (spellcasting hits capped at 18) sucesses on a perception test to notice anyone withing 9 (magic) * 18 (force) * 10 meters = 1,620 meters.
Now this would be very important for the dragon so he would have spent edge on the casting.
So Spellcasting (
+ Magic (9) + 6 (edge) = 23 dice (not counting foci,etc and pretty sure dragon would waste a spirit to aid but will leave that out).23 dice means (will give him some unamed (foci, aspected domain in lair, or whatever, +1) and call it 24 dice.
8 hits, 4 of them 6s which re-roll for another hit, 9 hits.
Characters get willpower+counterspelling dice .. be very generous and call it 17 (10 willpower + 7 counterspelling (or less stats and initiation on mage). If every character on the team has edge and every character on team spends edge (to resist some unknown something) then potienally the 24 dice the dragon has and equal to his, but almost certainly less.
There is a very good chance the dragon has good details (up to the equivilant of: "The troll is your contact, monica and she wounded being chased by three ork gangers" (from their example of detect life), as soon as you are within half a mile of him, and as long as you stay there.
Catching a dragon flat-footed doesnt happen very often
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 20 2007, 04:26 AM) | ||
Magic eh? Counterspeller counters it. Done. |
Wrong:
POWERS coutnerspelling does not apply
and even if you are house ruling counterspelling does stop powers..
11+ counterspelling is getting pretty signficant (and that is presuming a base 7 will power for the troll which havent seen the build listed but sort of doubt)
Conjurer
Hacker Adept
Pornomancer Adept
Anti-mage
Drone rigger
Weapons specialist/Demo expert
Do does anyone have objections to this team?
Should the team attempt to specialize in a single area to achieve overwhelming force in a single area, or should they cover all the bases?
Should the weapons specialist be switch out for a close combat troll?
Should the Hacker Adept or Pornomancer Adept be switched out for characters with direct combat power (I’m picking these because or their ability in legwork).
What should the secondary specialties of the team member be? For example, the pornomancer could be a mystic adept with counterspelling.
What attributes do dragons have in SR4 that need specific attention?
1 Dragon is physically powerful/tough. You'll need heavy weapons to bring it down
2 Dragon is a powerful mage, you'll need some good counterspelling and a spirit pack.
3 The dragon is really good at kung-fu. A non close combat troll being hit by the dragon in close combat has a pretty good chance of being toast.
4 The dragon is dual natured. On the plus side, you can attack is from the astral, bypassing certain physical attacks. On the minus side, it sees through spells like invisibility, physical mask, shapechange, and so on.
5 Do dragons breathe fire in SR4?
6 Did they get any other significant critter powers?
Hacker Adept
Pornomancer Adept
Anti-mage
Drone rigger
Weapons specialist/Demo expert
Do does anyone have objections to this team?
Should the team attempt to specialize in a single area to achieve overwhelming force in a single area, or should they cover all the bases?
Should the weapons specialist be switch out for a close combat troll?
Should the Hacker Adept or Pornomancer Adept be switched out for characters with direct combat power (I’m picking these because or their ability in legwork).
What should the secondary specialties of the team member be? For example, the pornomancer could be a mystic adept with counterspelling.
What attributes do dragons have in SR4 that need specific attention?
1 Dragon is physically powerful/tough. You'll need heavy weapons to bring it down
2 Dragon is a powerful mage, you'll need some good counterspelling and a spirit pack.
3 The dragon is really good at kung-fu. A non close combat troll being hit by the dragon in close combat has a pretty good chance of being toast.
4 The dragon is dual natured. On the plus side, you can attack is from the astral, bypassing certain physical attacks. On the minus side, it sees through spells like invisibility, physical mask, shapechange, and so on.
5 Do dragons breathe fire in SR4?
6 Did they get any other significant critter powers?
I've got a new idea. Make a team full of mages. One gets sympathetic link. The rest participate in a ritual of probably a manabolt. I'm sure the full team of 6 mages all grade 4 initiates casting to take out the dragon could do it.
Crusher Bob:
All dragons have elemental attack (usually fire) but not always.
There is also a pile of optional powers which are more troublesome.
Influence being the strongest. (think the spell but per RAW, counterspelling doesnt work on powers... so dragon can pretty force the next action from anybody but another dragon...)
Compulsion could also work, though it says it is often limited to a type of things... though nothing is lited when under optional powers of exampels or if dragons is limited. so could be able to compulse anything, or could be able to chose 'compulsion (horses)' etc.
Animal Control, Corrisive saliva, fear, noxius breath, venom are all also possible though generally less troublesome
All are magicians (per raw: not adepts or mystic adepts) and know most spells. They also are skilled conjurers.
As to vunerable on astral... their stats are generally going to better then the opposition once again,, much harder to oneshot on the astral and they do have mystic armor 8 for protection on astral
All dragons have elemental attack (usually fire) but not always.
There is also a pile of optional powers which are more troublesome.
Influence being the strongest. (think the spell but per RAW, counterspelling doesnt work on powers... so dragon can pretty force the next action from anybody but another dragon...)
Compulsion could also work, though it says it is often limited to a type of things... though nothing is lited when under optional powers of exampels or if dragons is limited. so could be able to compulse anything, or could be able to chose 'compulsion (horses)' etc.
Animal Control, Corrisive saliva, fear, noxius breath, venom are all also possible though generally less troublesome
All are magicians (per raw: not adepts or mystic adepts) and know most spells. They also are skilled conjurers.
As to vunerable on astral... their stats are generally going to better then the opposition once again,, much harder to oneshot on the astral and they do have mystic armor 8 for protection on astral
So this means:
Chemical seals/gas masks to protect against noxious breath.
Flame and acid reistance added to the armor.
The draong still has to see you to use the influence power, yes? So the best bet would be thermal smoke so that the dragon can't see much. And relying oon a lot of drones druing the attack, which can't be mind controlled.
Did they add any anti-drone spells in the new magic book? Thing like an radio based silence spell?
Chemical seals/gas masks to protect against noxious breath.
Flame and acid reistance added to the armor.
The draong still has to see you to use the influence power, yes? So the best bet would be thermal smoke so that the dragon can't see much. And relying oon a lot of drones druing the attack, which can't be mind controlled.
Did they add any anti-drone spells in the new magic book? Thing like an radio based silence spell?
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Still, how much are we getting paid for this job and what kind of resources does the team actually have access to? |
I know it's a bit late (School makes for no posting time), but I need to answer this question seriously now.
I'd kill the Dragon for either:
A. A +5 Eldritch Blasting Composite (+10) Longbow
OR
B. A 2055 Ford Americar.
Dead serious here.
And to actually kill the thing, I'd outsource. You know, to like... Atzlan or some Crazy Fundamentalists or something.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| note I might have missed some replies read most of it, but missed the start and this has already hit alot of pages). |
Which is pretty much how I feel, just now. Two days!
Thanks for the check on sapience generally, laughingowl. As it happens I'm making use of that -- but because of the karma limitation of the scenario, I'm doing it in Knowledge skills only. But I'll definitely keep it in mind for the next (Prime Runner style) dragon. Mmm, spendable karma.
Is it really bad that I completely understood the Tucker's kobolds reference?
Oh, another point of clarification --
I'd already mentioned it for contacts, but now I'm also explicitly mentioning it for spells: for these two things, I'm translating some of its nuyen into bp equivalent. Still doesn't allow for foci or initiation though.
I'm mostly watching the divination discussion, for now. However:
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| However, I would think that in order to get a complete reading about the bunker it would be a matter of "walking the divination" one step at a time. There's no limit to the number of times you can use Divining and there's no drain. |
Not a free action, though. If you're using this path, one of the team-to-be is going to have their time largely dedicated to this until you decide the one-step-at-a-time approach no longer matters.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| Start with "What would someone see if they got passed that blast door?" |
It's also not a clairvoyance spell. Per the quote pulled up by laughingowl:
| QUOTE |
| divination is only useful in answering questions about events, not personal details or histories |
... which would seem to answer most of the debate. In case it is not absolutely clear, the contents and layout of a room in and of themselves are not an event.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Very Specific (Is Mr. Johnson picking up his bribe this evening) theshold 4 I honestly would say your question is very specific, though could be talked into being nice and called is specific. |
Note also that the Very Specific example requires prior knowledge for the answer to have meaning. Assuming you get an exact answer and that answer is "No": does that mean that Mr. Johnson is going to pick up his bribe some other evening, that Mr. Johnson isn't going to pick up his bribe at all -- or maybe even that Mr. Johnson has had second thoughts about the Pareto efficiency of that bribe and has decided to turn the tables on you?
| QUOTE (laughingowl) | ||
All dragons are magicians and know 'most spells' Not hard to assume shapechange is one of those... |
Only great dragons have the innate power of metahuman form. Otherwise it requires a spell, with associated complex action/rolls/drain. Individual dragons may decide differently if they like this idea or not.
Spazzing banner is open-licence
That takes it up to the beginning of p.10, non-logged-in view. I'll pick up from there, later.
... oh, does the other-thread discussion about THOR shot nodes suffice or does anyone still seriously want to pursue that route?
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| I've got a new idea. Make a team full of mages. One gets sympathetic link. The rest participate in a ritual of probably a manabolt. I'm sure the full team of 6 mages all grade 4 initiates casting to take out the dragon could do it. |
If it is holed up in it lair, expect a force 18 or so ward around it (twice magic).
(or better yet is just makes its lair its magical lodge. no limit on force, save availaibty = F*2 and cost is a mere F*500). More importantly it can be improved incremental so to improve a lodge by one force is 500 nuyen an availabilty 2 test, and a one day ritual. repeat that a hundred times and you have a force 100 lodge for your lair... not a spell in the world or any other atral being going to touch that (though I assume most would house rule smack this if player tried it)
an extra 18 dice is going to eat through any ritual spell cast.
Figure ritual magic is still capped by force (unless edge used and I would say ALL have to spend edge).
Still have to get a link, or are you planning on doing symbolic linking with the -6 dice penalty, thats going to hurt.
Figure 6 is the most you can have do the ritual (well 7 if they ALL have exceptional skill ritual sorcery) since ritual sorcery caps the number of participants.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Did they add any anti-drone spells in the new magic book? Thing like an radio based silence spell? |
Interference, from Street Magic is pretty decent.
Talia:
Divination:
You also misssed each divination increases threshold by +1 until the subject or situation changes sufficently per GM. (if the subject is infiltrating the lair and I dont care how you rephrase it thats what you doing) then each question to get a better description of the lair hits that +1... thats going to knock divination down to 4-5 useful questions at absolute best and it is still very GM determenable on how symbolic the information is. but it is NOT hollywood style spy satelite filming the dragon taking a bath...
If you have money spend a good pile on binding materials. Dragons have conjuring group at 6, a good magic and can safely summon spirits that mortals dare (I.E likely force 9-10 for stun drain only). A force 10 spirit is something to be feared
Also see earlier psot about warding, dragon can raise some serious wards (or better yet the abuse of making it a magical lodge (by RAW legal) allowing the dragon to have a force 50 or so mana barrier around his lair if given time to prep it. That stops cold any ritual sorcery, survielance. spirit support NOT called after mage has some how entered the lodge, though doesnt hamper the dragon one bit.
Also while the team is there to hunt the dragon the dragon is going to be hunting the players the instant it knows there are there.. (given a few spirits on patrol that will happen).
A counterspelling mage is great and wonderful, but plenty of ways to unexpectidly break LOS, or best thing... identify the counterspeller.... spirit engulf... eat party at leisure.
Divination:
You also misssed each divination increases threshold by +1 until the subject or situation changes sufficently per GM. (if the subject is infiltrating the lair and I dont care how you rephrase it thats what you doing) then each question to get a better description of the lair hits that +1... thats going to knock divination down to 4-5 useful questions at absolute best and it is still very GM determenable on how symbolic the information is. but it is NOT hollywood style spy satelite filming the dragon taking a bath...
If you have money
spend a good pile on binding materials. Dragons have conjuring group at 6, a good magic and can safely summon spirits that mortals dare (I.E likely force 9-10 for stun drain only). A force 10 spirit is something to be feared Also see earlier psot about warding, dragon can raise some serious wards (or better yet the abuse of making it a magical lodge (by RAW legal) allowing the dragon to have a force 50 or so mana barrier around his lair if given time to prep it. That stops cold any ritual sorcery, survielance. spirit support NOT called after mage has some how entered the lodge, though doesnt hamper the dragon one bit.
Also while the team is there to hunt the dragon the dragon is going to be hunting the players the instant it knows there are there.. (given a few spirits on patrol that will happen).
A counterspelling mage is great and wonderful, but plenty of ways to unexpectidly break LOS, or best thing... identify the counterspeller.... spirit engulf... eat party at leisure.
Also as mentioned if giving money.. ritual material arent that much.
I would expect the dragon to likely have 8 bound spirits at 'safe' rating of force 6-9 (just under its magic so no real risk in summoning and binding).
If not intitiating (must be young dragon indeed), then spirits protecting its home and or on standby would be one of its better defenses, and they can safely call spirits that might kill a metahuman. (well all save a serious initiated metahuman).
Don't let the dragon be idle... it will act not react to any threat.
I would expect the dragon to likely have 8 bound spirits at 'safe' rating of force 6-9 (just under its magic so no real risk in summoning and binding).
If not intitiating (must be young dragon indeed), then spirits protecting its home and or on standby would be one of its better defenses, and they can safely call spirits that might kill a metahuman. (well all save a serious initiated metahuman).
Don't let the dragon be idle... it will act not react to any threat.
Any help to be had from having some paranormal critters as part of the team's equpiment? If the pronomancer adept takes handle animal 6 and improved animal handling 3, even some normally untrainable animals are probably fair game. would 6 or so hell hounds, barghests, or whatever else you can think of help. They are dual natured and can fight spirits in a pinch. Any chance of the dragon being effected by any critter powers? (paralyzing howl, etc?)
| QUOTE |
| If it is holed up in it lair, expect a force 18 or so ward around it (twice magic). |
No. Not one fucking chance. There is no way that a dragon is going to voluntarily decide to subject itself to 18P drain every five or six weeks. That's crazy talk.
Making wards is fun for the whole family, but overcasting wards is not something that anyone does.
-Frank
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| One has obviously never ran into Tucker's Kobolds (or any of the soiled loincloth inspired clones). Having killed level 20 parties with stock kobolds, stock rules, and with even giving the party warnings .. True the party did mange to kill a few of the kobolds, true the 'threat' rating was higher, considering the kobolds were working for a dragon (who was out of town, so not directly factored in) and who helped a little with lair preperation and mostly motivation. The rules dor D&D (basic, advanced, 2e, 3e (havent touch 3.5 so couldnt say but pretty sure do) all allow 'sneaky' and even encourage it. Now it is true that 'one-shotting' is almost impossible for a 'low' level against a high level, but killing a high level is another story all together. |
I'm familiar with Tucker's kobolds. The case consisted of (a) a party that was expecting a monster 1... monster 2 approach and was too dumb to adapt to the very different game that the DM was running. And (b) the kobolds weren't merely using a few advanced tactics, they had the characters walking through a customised, pit-trapped, sliding walled, oubliette out-fitted step-by-step killing machine that would have taken such creatures years to construct, all for the purpose of small groups of humans who chose to walk down their corridor. I think that fits my point about you having to take things to extremes in D&D to make sneakiness outweigh character level. Remember that with all that hideous one-sided preparation and advantage, it still took the kobolds a long, long time to whittle the PC's hit points down to nothing.
The D20 rules support vast power differences by level and balance attack and defence equally. These two together inherently make sneakiness less significant than the Shadowrun rules do. They even explicitly specify how much extra damage you do from backstabbing someone according to level. The low-level thief gets an extra 1d6. The high level 2d8 or whatever. Contrast the effect on different hitpoint characters with Shadowrun where it simply opens the potential for raising your damage up the nearly fixed damage track.
The rules difference between D&D and Shadowrun have a fundamental effect on the playstyles of the two games. I don't say that sneakiness has no merit in D&D, but it needs to be taken to exaggerated extremes to make it comparable to character level and Tucker's kobolds illustrate that.
Edit: Edited to account for points made by Vaevictis.
Magic Ritual Team, I made them all the same to save on headaches, so its the same guy cloned 6 times for this.
Characters are:
Premiss is, any of them takes their artisan skill, and makes a pretty clay dragon to use. They all have a sympathetic focus, so they take no penalty for this. Then they all get together in any of their own magical lodges (if you want to argue on the creation of them, they summon spirits with search to find the regents needed). Since they've had enough time to get 1mill¥ + 200karma then they've had enough time to waste hunting down regents for this. If you want to argue it more, they expect to kill dragons, they follow the dragon slayer mentor spirit.
Now then, they get all together in their happy little magical lodge. And start some ritual magic. Overcasting Slay (Dragon) at force 20 (twice all their magic ratings). Theres 6 of them, and they all have 7 in ritual, pick whoever to lead. They order one of their 2 beast spirits to guard all of them. (6 force 6 spirits guarding 6 guys each.) Everyone uses edge on their test. Oh, and they order their other bound beast spirit to aid sorcery on it.
Dicepools are: - 6 for sympathetic + Magic + Ritual + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit + Edge to reroll failures.
-6 + 10 + 9 (spec) + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31 dice. Average of 10 hits each. Reroll failures of 21 dice, and average is another 7 hits. Total 17 hits per guy. 17 * 5 = 85 dice bonus to the main caster.
Main caster is going to cast. Uses edge to explode 6's and remove the force limiter on the test. His pool is the same, plus edge w/ exploding 6's, and plus the teamwork dice. Making it 31 + 6 + 85 = 122.
He rolls, average of 40 Successes. 20 of those explode for another 6 Successes. 46 total successes. Force 20 Slay (Dragon) Spell. Dragon gets his resistance check, Willpower + Counterspelling + Edge (8 + 8 + = 24 dice. Average of 8 hits. 4 explode for another 1 hit. Total 9 hits. Net hits, 35 on the side of the ritual. 20 + 37 = 57P the dragon takes. Exploded.
Oh yes, and drain. Being shamans they resist with willpower + charisma (4 + 3). They're looking at (Force / 2) - 2 Drain. 20 / 2 = 10. -2 = 8. 2 net hits on average, and they take 6P. They then heal each other up, and go about their business. Spirits do even better, with average of 4 hits, and take only 4P.
Anyone find anything that contradicts this?
Magic Ritual Team, I made them all the same to save on headaches, so its the same guy cloned 6 times for this.
Characters are:
[ Spoiler ]
Premiss is, any of them takes their artisan skill, and makes a pretty clay dragon to use. They all have a sympathetic focus, so they take no penalty for this. Then they all get together in any of their own magical lodges (if you want to argue on the creation of them, they summon spirits with search to find the regents needed). Since they've had enough time to get 1mill¥ + 200karma then they've had enough time to waste hunting down regents for this. If you want to argue it more, they expect to kill dragons, they follow the dragon slayer mentor spirit.
Now then, they get all together in their happy little magical lodge. And start some ritual magic. Overcasting Slay (Dragon) at force 20 (twice all their magic ratings). Theres 6 of them, and they all have 7 in ritual, pick whoever to lead. They order one of their 2 beast spirits to guard all of them. (6 force 6 spirits guarding 6 guys each.) Everyone uses edge on their test. Oh, and they order their other bound beast spirit to aid sorcery on it.
Dicepools are: - 6 for sympathetic + Magic + Ritual + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit + Edge to reroll failures.
-6 + 10 + 9 (spec) + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31 dice. Average of 10 hits each. Reroll failures of 21 dice, and average is another 7 hits. Total 17 hits per guy. 17 * 5 = 85 dice bonus to the main caster.
Main caster is going to cast. Uses edge to explode 6's and remove the force limiter on the test. His pool is the same, plus edge w/ exploding 6's, and plus the teamwork dice. Making it 31 + 6 + 85 = 122.
He rolls, average of 40 Successes. 20 of those explode for another 6 Successes. 46 total successes. Force 20 Slay (Dragon) Spell. Dragon gets his resistance check, Willpower + Counterspelling + Edge (8 + 8 +
= 24 dice. Average of 8 hits. 4 explode for another 1 hit. Total 9 hits. Net hits, 35 on the side of the ritual. 20 + 37 = 57P the dragon takes. Exploded.Oh yes, and drain. Being shamans they resist with willpower + charisma (4 + 3). They're looking at (Force / 2) - 2 Drain. 20 / 2 = 10. -2 = 8. 2 net hits on average, and they take 6P. They then heal each other up, and go about their business. Spirits do even better, with average of 4 hits, and take only 4P.
Anyone find anything that contradicts this?
Since what we're really trying to do is press the "I WIN" button, how about we toss in a mage that decides to abuse ally spirits, as we're creating him in a vacuum?
Race: Human
Body: 2
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 5
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
Edge: 8
Magic: 5
Qualities: Magician, Lucky, Spirit Pact (5BP), Sensitive System, Simsense Vertigo
Tradition: Hedge Witchcraft
Skills: Conjuring Group (4), Spellcasting (4), Counterspelling (4)
Spirit Pact is a Life Pact.
Remaining Build Points: 58
Suggested Spells: Armor, Astral Armor, Levitate, Prophylaxis, Combat Sense, Spacial Sense (Extended Area), Catalog, Deflection, Detect Enemies (Extended Area), Increase Reflexes, Increase Body, Increase Agility, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Increase Willpower, Increase Strength
Remaining Build Points After Suggested Spells: 10
How do we spend our money?
010,000 on binding materials for the ally spirit.
006,000 for full body armor
001,000 for helmet
005,000 for chemical seal
001,500 for chemical protection (6)
000,600 for fire resistance (6)
000,900 for insulation (6)
001,200 for nonconductivity (6)
003,000 for thermal dampening (6)
001,500 for ballistic shield
002,400 for 4 rating 6 medkits
040,000 for a pain editor
200,000 for medical services (see below)
000,750 for monofilament sword
Spending Karma:
Initiation Grade 1: Channelling (8 karma, group/ordeal (astral quest))
Initiation Grade 2: Ally Spirit (10 karma, group/ordeal (asceticism))
Initiation Grade 3: Shielding (12 karma, group/ordeal (familiar))
Create Ally Spirit:
Force 11 (88 Karma)
Materialize (1 forms, 2 Karma)
Ally Spirit is then:
Body: 11
Agility: 11
Reaction: 11
Strength: 11
Charisma: 11
Intuition: 11
Logic: 11
Willpower: 11
Magic: 11
Edge: 8
* Inherent Powers: Materialization, Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Realistic Form, Sapience, Sense Link
* Inherent Skills at rating 11: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat
* It has 11 powers from spirits the character can summon: Earth, Water, Plant, Air, Task
* Recommended powers: Concealment, Confusion, Search, Energy Aura, Fear, Noxious Breath, Psychokinesis, Energy Aura, Weather Control, Silence
Extra Ally Spirit Abilities: Exotic Ranged Weapon (11, 5 karma), Blades (11, 5 karma), Infiltration (11, 5 karma)
Total Ally Spirit Cost: 105
Unspent Karma: 65 (* may be needed in summoning of ally spirit)
*** In case you think I may die summoning the above ally spirit, see my exploitative bullshit below. I think I have a "trick" so to speak.
I think that provides a pretty good base for making a sufficiently powerful character. The strategy is obvious: Channel the ally. Cast one of the recommended spells using the ally's aid sorcery ability. Have the ally sustain it. Repeat ad nauseum.
When you're done, I think you look something like this, numbers in parenthesis represent "average" spellcasting results -- 1/3*(4+11+11)=8. Good luck dispelling that, especially when I'm casting it at high force levels.
Body: 13 (19)
Agility: 13 (19)
Reaction: 13 (19)
Strength: 13 (19)
Charisma: 11 (resist spells and powers at 3)
Intuition: 11 (16, resist spells and powers at 5 (9))
Logic: 11 (resist spells and powers at 3)
Willpower: 11 (16, resist spells and powers at 5 (9))
Magic: 11
Edge: 8
Armor: 18/14 (26/22), immunity to normal weapons at 22
Special: (+8 ) dice on Suprise, Reaction tests (Combat Sense)
Special: (+8 ) dice when defending melee attacks (Combat Sense)
Special: (+16) dice when defending ranged attacks (Combat Sense, Deflection)
Initiative: 24 (38 )
Initiative Passes: 1 (4)
Counterspelling Dice: 4 + 11 (aid sorcery) + 6 (shielding) = 21
Spellcasting Dice: 4 + 11 (magic) + 11 (aid sorcery) = 25
Skills: Conjuring Group (4), Spellcasting (4), Counterspelling (4), Assenssing (11), Astral Combat (11), Dodge (11), Perception (11), Unarmed Combat (11), Exotic Ranged Weapon (11), Blades (11)
Melee: Monofilament Sword, (STR/2+3)P=12P +4P (energy aura)=16P
Ranged: Noxious Breath, 11S toxin, nausea.
I'm not entirely sure what to spend the rest of the karma left over after summoning the ally spirit. Probably spells, maybe a weapon focus, maybe other foci.
... and obviously, this guy will have some pretty hefty bound spirits available, I guess anything less than or equal to 8 force is safely assumable.
And all I have to say is, thank goodness dragons don't get channeling!
Tactics:
1. Concealment -- -11 dice to notice this guy.
2. Use catalog and spacial sense spells to find the nearest fiber-optic mage sight thingie. Sneak up to it. Look back at the dragon (fiber optics are two way, you know...). Confuse him.
3. Whistle happily as you effortlessly sustain the confusion power and stick a wad of bubble gum* in the mage sight thingie.
4. As you move along, continue using catalog and spacial sense to find more mage sight thingies. Stick more bubble gum* in them.
5. Use psychokinesis liberally to stay out of LOS of things that might cause you trouble. Like mage sight thingies. Or explosives, which you detect with your catalog and spacial sense.
6. Probably some other stuff. Haven't given it too much thought.
* Or something similarly portable and useful for clogging up little holes. Like rubber cement.
*** To summon our ally spirit, we're going to be an exploitative SOB. Hopefully, I've got all my ducks in a row and I haven't missed something that makes this all fall down.
From channeling: "... the magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power..."
From possession: "... the spirit's Force is added to the vessel's Physical attributes. While possessed, the spirits Mental and Special attributes are used..."
Note that Magic is a special attribute, so channeling a spirit higher in magic than you results in setting your magic rating to the higher rating (apparently, the same goes for a lower magic rating?).
Hire a fairly powerful magician to heal you. He should also cast Increase Attribute (Body) to raise your body to 9. Hire a fairly high skilled medic to use first aid on you. We'll go ahead and allocate 200,000 nuyen to this, since it's going to take some time. The magician needs to be paid well enough that he's willing to overcast, too. (we can heal physical drain now, right?)
Go to Alaska in the summer (for the loooong days.)
1. Turn on your pain editor.
Set X=6
LOOP:
1. Summon Force X earth spirit.
2. If you take any drain, heal it.
3. Channel the spirit.
4. Your physical track is now 8+(X+13)/2 + overflow of X+13
5. Set X=X+2
IF X=28 END LOOP
You'll never go unconscious; it's not even possible. Thanks to the channelling increasing your body by two each step, your physical track increases by one. The equilibrium point where you could go unconscious is 28, hence we stop summoning after force 26. On average, you won't take any real drain at all, because you'll always about twice as many dice to resist drain than the spirit can to resist summoning -- You'll have (F-1)*2 dice to resist the drain, and the spirit will have F dice to resist the summoing.
If something really bad happens, and you take obscene amounts of drain, and your medics can't heal you, use the Life Pact to heal up, but only in multiples of two (so as not to waste karma), and only enough to keep you conscious when the channelled spirit goes away.
Once you get to force 26 and you're untouched, you will look like this:
Body: 39
Willpower: 26
Magic: 26
Stun track: 21
Physical Track: 27
1. Summon a force 11 spirit. Spend an edge point on the drain resistance. Take no drain.
2. Bind the force 11 spirit. Spend an edge point on the binding and on the drain resistance.
3. Worst case scenario, you take 44 points of stun damage. You won't go unconscious.
4. If the binding didn't knock you out, pay 100 karma for your ally
5. Have your medics heal you.
5. Pay up to 14 karma to heal up your physical damage.
This is the "100% safe" way of doing it. If you're feeling saucy, you can push it and get a higher force ally. And yes, things start to get tough as you get higher level force spirits summoned. Keep trying; as I said, on average, you'll take no drain, and you have that life pact to heal what your buddies helping you can't.
Race: Human
Body: 2
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 5
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
Edge: 8
Magic: 5
Qualities: Magician, Lucky, Spirit Pact (5BP), Sensitive System, Simsense Vertigo
Tradition: Hedge Witchcraft
Skills: Conjuring Group (4), Spellcasting (4), Counterspelling (4)
Spirit Pact is a Life Pact.
Remaining Build Points: 58
Suggested Spells: Armor, Astral Armor, Levitate, Prophylaxis, Combat Sense, Spacial Sense (Extended Area), Catalog, Deflection, Detect Enemies (Extended Area), Increase Reflexes, Increase Body, Increase Agility, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Increase Willpower, Increase Strength
Remaining Build Points After Suggested Spells: 10
How do we spend our money?
010,000 on binding materials for the ally spirit.
006,000 for full body armor
001,000 for helmet
005,000 for chemical seal
001,500 for chemical protection (6)
000,600 for fire resistance (6)
000,900 for insulation (6)
001,200 for nonconductivity (6)
003,000 for thermal dampening (6)
001,500 for ballistic shield
002,400 for 4 rating 6 medkits
040,000 for a pain editor
200,000 for medical services (see below)
000,750 for monofilament sword
Spending Karma:
Initiation Grade 1: Channelling (8 karma, group/ordeal (astral quest))
Initiation Grade 2: Ally Spirit (10 karma, group/ordeal (asceticism))
Initiation Grade 3: Shielding (12 karma, group/ordeal (familiar))
Create Ally Spirit:
Force 11 (88 Karma)
Materialize (1 forms, 2 Karma)
Ally Spirit is then:
Body: 11
Agility: 11
Reaction: 11
Strength: 11
Charisma: 11
Intuition: 11
Logic: 11
Willpower: 11
Magic: 11
Edge: 8
* Inherent Powers: Materialization, Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Realistic Form, Sapience, Sense Link
* Inherent Skills at rating 11: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat
* It has 11 powers from spirits the character can summon: Earth, Water, Plant, Air, Task
* Recommended powers: Concealment, Confusion, Search, Energy Aura, Fear, Noxious Breath, Psychokinesis, Energy Aura, Weather Control, Silence
Extra Ally Spirit Abilities: Exotic Ranged Weapon (11, 5 karma), Blades (11, 5 karma), Infiltration (11, 5 karma)
Total Ally Spirit Cost: 105
Unspent Karma: 65 (* may be needed in summoning of ally spirit)
*** In case you think I may die summoning the above ally spirit, see my exploitative bullshit below. I think I have a "trick" so to speak.
I think that provides a pretty good base for making a sufficiently powerful character. The strategy is obvious: Channel the ally. Cast one of the recommended spells using the ally's aid sorcery ability. Have the ally sustain it. Repeat ad nauseum.
When you're done, I think you look something like this, numbers in parenthesis represent "average" spellcasting results -- 1/3*(4+11+11)=8. Good luck dispelling that, especially when I'm casting it at high force levels.
Body: 13 (19)
Agility: 13 (19)
Reaction: 13 (19)
Strength: 13 (19)
Charisma: 11 (resist spells and powers at 3)
Intuition: 11 (16, resist spells and powers at 5 (9))
Logic: 11 (resist spells and powers at 3)
Willpower: 11 (16, resist spells and powers at 5 (9))
Magic: 11
Edge: 8
Armor: 18/14 (26/22), immunity to normal weapons at 22
Special: (+8 ) dice on Suprise, Reaction tests (Combat Sense)
Special: (+8 ) dice when defending melee attacks (Combat Sense)
Special: (+16) dice when defending ranged attacks (Combat Sense, Deflection)
Initiative: 24 (38 )
Initiative Passes: 1 (4)
Counterspelling Dice: 4 + 11 (aid sorcery) + 6 (shielding) = 21
Spellcasting Dice: 4 + 11 (magic) + 11 (aid sorcery) = 25
Skills: Conjuring Group (4), Spellcasting (4), Counterspelling (4), Assenssing (11), Astral Combat (11), Dodge (11), Perception (11), Unarmed Combat (11), Exotic Ranged Weapon (11), Blades (11)
Melee: Monofilament Sword, (STR/2+3)P=12P +4P (energy aura)=16P
Ranged: Noxious Breath, 11S toxin, nausea.
I'm not entirely sure what to spend the rest of the karma left over after summoning the ally spirit. Probably spells, maybe a weapon focus, maybe other foci.
... and obviously, this guy will have some pretty hefty bound spirits available, I guess anything less than or equal to 8 force is safely assumable.
And all I have to say is, thank goodness dragons don't get channeling!
Tactics:
1. Concealment -- -11 dice to notice this guy.
2. Use catalog and spacial sense spells to find the nearest fiber-optic mage sight thingie. Sneak up to it. Look back at the dragon (fiber optics are two way, you know...). Confuse him.
3. Whistle happily as you effortlessly sustain the confusion power and stick a wad of bubble gum* in the mage sight thingie.
4. As you move along, continue using catalog and spacial sense to find more mage sight thingies. Stick more bubble gum* in them.
5. Use psychokinesis liberally to stay out of LOS of things that might cause you trouble. Like mage sight thingies. Or explosives, which you detect with your catalog and spacial sense.
6. Probably some other stuff. Haven't given it too much thought.
* Or something similarly portable and useful for clogging up little holes. Like rubber cement.
*** To summon our ally spirit, we're going to be an exploitative SOB. Hopefully, I've got all my ducks in a row and I haven't missed something that makes this all fall down.
From channeling: "... the magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power..."
From possession: "... the spirit's Force is added to the vessel's Physical attributes. While possessed, the spirits Mental and Special attributes are used..."
Note that Magic is a special attribute, so channeling a spirit higher in magic than you results in setting your magic rating to the higher rating (apparently, the same goes for a lower magic rating?).
Hire a fairly powerful magician to heal you. He should also cast Increase Attribute (Body) to raise your body to 9. Hire a fairly high skilled medic to use first aid on you. We'll go ahead and allocate 200,000 nuyen to this, since it's going to take some time. The magician needs to be paid well enough that he's willing to overcast, too. (we can heal physical drain now, right?)
Go to Alaska in the summer (for the loooong days.)
1. Turn on your pain editor.
Set X=6
LOOP:
1. Summon Force X earth spirit.
2. If you take any drain, heal it.
3. Channel the spirit.
4. Your physical track is now 8+(X+13)/2 + overflow of X+13
5. Set X=X+2
IF X=28 END LOOP
You'll never go unconscious; it's not even possible. Thanks to the channelling increasing your body by two each step, your physical track increases by one. The equilibrium point where you could go unconscious is 28, hence we stop summoning after force 26. On average, you won't take any real drain at all, because you'll always about twice as many dice to resist drain than the spirit can to resist summoning -- You'll have (F-1)*2 dice to resist the drain, and the spirit will have F dice to resist the summoing.
If something really bad happens, and you take obscene amounts of drain, and your medics can't heal you, use the Life Pact to heal up, but only in multiples of two (so as not to waste karma), and only enough to keep you conscious when the channelled spirit goes away.
Once you get to force 26 and you're untouched, you will look like this:
Body: 39
Willpower: 26
Magic: 26
Stun track: 21
Physical Track: 27
1. Summon a force 11 spirit. Spend an edge point on the drain resistance. Take no drain.
2. Bind the force 11 spirit. Spend an edge point on the binding and on the drain resistance.
3. Worst case scenario, you take 44 points of stun damage. You won't go unconscious.
4. If the binding didn't knock you out, pay 100 karma for your ally
5. Have your medics heal you.
5. Pay up to 14 karma to heal up your physical damage.
This is the "100% safe" way of doing it. If you're feeling saucy, you can push it and get a higher force ally. And yes, things start to get tough as you get higher level force spirits summoned. Keep trying; as I said, on average, you'll take no drain, and you have that life pact to heal what your buddies helping you can't.
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Jul 20 2007, 02:55 AM) |
| Anyone find anything that contradicts this? |
Main problem I see with your approach is the creation of the sympathetic link, which is probably a threshold 16/1 day test. I don't think we have this kind of time, and you will only know to make the sympathetic link once you've been hired.
Each mage should get a -6 for use of the symbolic link; did you account for that (I didn't see it)
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