People on this forum have been complaining for years that mages are just too powerful and they need to be nerfed. Perversely, the recent forum habitués now seem to have an opposite stance. But I have yet to see a full build that does what people say they can do.

Does anyone have an "ubermage" or an "ubercybersam" that can wipe out the opposition in "normal" arenas like in a street/bar/office short-to-medium range firefight? What if both characters have to pass through wards, guards, and security systems to reach their target?

Assuming each character is chargen+35karma+50000-no-availability-limit-nuyen, and both have made the usual preparations for the run, who would win a fight like that? Opinions are nice, but builds are better.

It's time to see what you got!

Well, as much as I've enjoyed playing mages of all varieties, I still have to stand by the one SR adage that was burnt into my brain early on. More important than "Never Deal with a dragon", or "never trust an elf."
it is this:

"It only takes one shot to geek a mage."

The last time I ran we faced a mage. Our mage mind-controlled the opposing Street Samurai and had him hack the opposing mage down in a single stroke from a katana... A strength 12 cyberarm with 5 skill and Edge can have that effect.

So... uh...

mage > street samurai < mage

or rather mind control = busted < katana > mage < ares predator to the noggin.

Whatever. Just shoot the fraggin mage in the head and sling some mojo at the Street Samurai.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway

Shadowrun is all series of controlled arena combats where opponents go one on one. Therefore this thought experiment is bound to have valid results.

...two words...

Thor Shot™

...takes both Uber Mage & Uber Sammy out with no muss, no fuss and no dirty rings.

Whoever sees the other one first.

No, seriously. If one gets the drop on the other, you can be pretty much assured they're dead. A horde of bound spirits doesn't matter if they have a hard time finding the target.

i don't believe that the OP is talking about having the mage and the street sam fight each other to the death. i believe he's talking about general lethality--which one is more effective at taking out their opposition in any given situation.

Huh, I guess you're right.

There's no way to answer that question. At least no answer other than "How many kilos of C4, how many grenades, and how many drones do they both have?" SO much of effectiveness comes down to proper planning and getting the drop on people that it's like asking "Which is more deadly, a Nuke Sub or an Aircraft Carrier?"

They BOTH kill you plenty. Are we gonna count the atoms of the target that are left after both have their way? Measure the blood splat?

Well, in a they just spotted each other and go fight, both spend edge to go first, then its down to initiative, sam probably has wired, mage probably has increased reflexes. If the sam goes first, he drops the mage, if the mage goes first, he drops the sam.

My money's on a well-built Mage. It's easier than people think to make a Mage that goes first. Intuition for a drain attribute, Reaction Enhancers, Cybereyes and the Increase Reflexes spell can make for a deadly combination. It's possible to make a Samurai that's just as fast, but at the end of the day mundanes can't counterspell but mages can still go on full defense, so it's arguable which character has more "survivability", especially when dealing with Ork mages who can easily have 4+ body with few sacrifices.

In all honesty, however, I've always felt that such things are beside the point. I mean, yes, my mage can clear a whole squad of Will 3 mooks simply by splitting my casting pool in half and casting two overlapping Force 6 StunBalls and still probably soak the drain, but I usually pass on the opportunity. Why? Because the bloody samurai can do the same thing with a couple of grenades and he doesn't have to risk drain at all nor does he end up leaving multiple astral signatures laying around. I know a lot of people don't worry about ritual magic all that terribly often, but I can tell you from experience that you do -not- want corp mages targeting your Mage with a Force 8 Ignite spell just as the Red Samurai are kicking down your apartment door.

Honestly, in a scenario where they just happen upon each other, not a run, I give the ups to the SS, he's probably got a higher initiative, because only insane mages wander around sustaining or having sustained on them a force 4 improve reflexes all day when not running. Can we say Focus Addiction? Sammy pulls out his Pred and pops 2 in the mages skull or cuts him in half with his other licensed weapon. HOWEVER, given proper preperation, the only thing that can reasonably stop a mage is another mage. That is how magic rolls in every system I've ever seen, and why it is so hard to do combats/contests like this. In a barfight? Sammy wins unless he screws the pooch on initiative. In an arena combat? Someone is getting spirit swarmed while someone else is improved invis and concealed stealthing around with his skillwired stealth. Or for that matter the mage just summons(not binds) a Force 8 Guardian spirit, first aids the drain away then when it is time for the run he's like "Possess me!" and channels him while beating the living crap out of everything. It all depends on the situation and you have to be really specific. Sammy's are ready for anything they can handle nearly all the time, barring needing heavy duty munitions, Mages take a little while to gain momentum, but given prep time they obliterate the opposition. That is the general nature of physicality vs. magic in most systems, the physical is always there, the magic is more powerful, but it takes awhile.

Chris

There's still the sticky issue of Reaction Enhancers, however. It's unfortunate for mundanes, but a mage built for speed isn't really at much of a disadvantage compared to a Samurai, especially since they likely only need a single round to drop a Samurai who doesn't have counterspell support.

If the Samurai goes first and if the Mage fails his Full Defense rolls. Granted, full defense is only a good move for the Mage if he has his Increase Reflexes up or Edge to spend on gaining an extra pass, but a Samurai at best has just his Will and Edge pool to defend against a manabolt if he doesn't have outside help. Either character only needs a single pass to kill but one cannot use his extra passes on defense while the other can. That's a pretty big disadvantage even in a game where it pays to be the aggressor.

Why would the sammy be wasting his time with bullets?

Explosives are much more certain to do the job.


-karma

Mages have access to explosives too. Hell, the logic tradition mages could probably do a better job than the samurai and could remote detonate with Magic Fingers if they wanted to. And that's really the only true imbalance between mundanes and Awakened: The game is a skill based rather than class based system, yet one set of characters has an entire world opened up to them that remains closed off to everyone else right from chargen. It's an issue that's held in check only by the GM and the fact that people are likely to move onto new characters well before karma is so plentiful that mundanes lack for advancement options.

PS: I don't actually think Mages really need nerfing or anything. They die just like everyone else, so they're not truly gamebreakers.

You run into the dead wall of "How many actions can you take per pass?"

The mage can throw the manabolt...OR he can throw the explosives. He can't do both, unless he has spirits throw the explosives.

Which opens the door to the street sam's drones throwing his explosives.

Again though... Mages can have drones. My brother's got a MystAd Hacker/Rigger/Summoner sheet that keeps our GM awake at nights. The character is fragile as hell and can't use sorcery at all, but it still illustrates the concept that the Awakened can crossover into some technological specializations while mundanes can't really dabble in magic. Again, I realize that this is hardly gamebreaking. You could give a character access to every ability in the game but if he can only choose to use one at a time then there's really no guarantee that he will succeed. Mages aren't outright broken, they just have a disproportionate number of options available to them by design. They have an advantage, it's just often a theoretical one and it's certainly not always powerful enough to overcome falling into disfavor with the almighty dice gods.

Hmm, 35 karma, enough for group membership, two initiations and a force 1 ally spirit to sustain your spells?

Possession tradition mage wins...

True, the mage can have drones. But realistically, given Buster's limitations on karma and money, the Sam will have more and/or better drones. Because the mage will have to spend more BP to get his mageyness and his magic stat up high, and then will have to pay BP for magical gear and whatever cyber he wants.

I.E. the sam has more points to put towards drones.

I actually like the limits, because if we just go, "Well, take an extra million and 150 karma", it gets ridiculous. At that level, you start asking questions like, "Well, has my Street Sam become a cyberzombie?" or "Has my mage found a free spirit's true name?"

The limits keep my brain working within the "What can I do after about 10-15 games?" limit.

I'll see if I can't work out some "Uber beatdown" machines when I get home.

Panther Cannons don't get full auto, alas.

But otherwise, yes, that's generally my feeling as well.

You're forgetting Edge. I've yet to see a mage build with 8 Edge, whereas I've seen lots of mundane builds with maxed-out Edge. 8 Edge will soak the first spell tossed at you, so even if the mage goes first (and with a ton of cyber, he can't overcast especially high anyway) the sam will get in the last word.

I put together this little summoner that has Initiative 33, 4 IPs, Edge 6, physical attributes all 13+, and Immunity to Normal Weapons 24. Name a weapon or explosive that can punch through that. And he isn't even finished yet, I have 63 BP left over to make him really powerful.

This conjurer is extremely versatile. He normally "wears" a Guardian spirit, but if he needs to spoof a door or do other technical work, he can summon a Task spirit. If he needs some special inside information (such as through Divination), he can summon a Guidance spirit.

His only weakness is that his possession spirit will trip Wards, so he'll be vulnerable for the single IP it takes for him to drop his possession spirit, walk into the ward, and metaplanar shortcut the spirit back into him. He could potentially take a lot of drain from summoning the spirit every sunrise and sunset, but he has plenty of Edge for an unlucky dice roll and he has cyberware and a first aid kit to handle the rest. I might spend the 63 free BP on Binding skills and foci to eliminate that potential threat.

For offensive abilities he can either hit his opponents with repeated stunballs, physical bolts, or influence spells. Or with his 13 Strength and natural weapons from the Guardian spirit, he could just walk up and tear his opponent apart with his bare claws.

Suck it muggles!

Edit: Nevermind

By giving his possession spirit explicit instructions for everything until he finished his first Stuffer Shack run and got his 7 karma to buy Channeling. Besides he's got 63 BP unspent, that's a lot of BP to fill in the cracks.

The basic issue is that to do something offensive a street sam needs to visibly act. A mage doesn't. The mage sitting at the bar with his back to the sammie can be dropping sequential fire spirits on the sammie across the room and there just isn't any way for the sammie to know who is doing it. And if the mage is invisible it's just silly.

Same way, sammie walks into the crowded bar and get hit with a force 8 manabolt and takes 11 body. Even if he soaks it with edge, who did it? What are you going to do about it? Was it someone he can see? Was it an invisible mage? Is the mage outside in the limo and not inside? Is it the guy in the corner?

If the mage walks in the door and gets shot he's got a hell of a better idea about who did it. As does everyone else in the room.

Which blows a lot of holes in the whole "Geek the Mage first!" plan, btw. My mages typically have 3-4 body and strap on a lined coat or armored jacket and wave around a predator around just like every other two bit ganger and wannabe Samurai on the streets; unless you're magically active it's rather tricky to notice who exactly the mage is until he's unloaded on you with a Lightning Ball.

BTW; you can't actually have a Pain Editor active and benefit from a Trauma Damper at the same time. You'll have to settle for Platelet Factories for full compatibility, but that's hardly too big of a nerfing.

Beyond the 35 Karma, one should note that force 12 spirits aren't exactly legal. That point can't really be argued, as walking like that in an A or better neighborhood will result in a pretty quick escalation of Bad Things ™ with the fuzz. This means the character can't parade around with that thing channeled all the time.

Which, ultimately, will lead to him needing to make that "19 dice vs 12" dice roll fairly often. I'm too lazy to post the math. But it represents a pretty significant problem...

Anyhow, characters built like that tend to manifest pretty clear glass jaws under all but the most retarded GMs.

How do these sorts of discussions go on for so long, given how incredibly contrived the topic is? I can't say that "Ultimate Doom characters face off at 30 meters" is representative of any sort of significant portion of my Shadowrun experience..

<<shrug>>

Sure he can walk around with that spirit channeled all the time. Loading and unloading a possession doesn't consume services, it's explicit in the RAW so how is he going to take drain more than at sunrise and sunset? Also, who is going to notice the possession spirit? He has Physical Mask to hide the shamanic mask effect from the spirit and people with astral perception high enough to spot it aren't exactly common. Besides he has a fake license to practice magic, so no worries.

Where's his "glass jaw"? You said it was clear, but didn't actually mention any weakness.

"People with astral perception high enough to notice a force 12 spirit" will most likely include every single character that has (a) astral perception, and (b) eyes.

Bumping around with active magic juju over a certain force is illegal. If your GM rules that a simple fake license takes care of that, well, more power to you. I've seen GM rule that fake licenses for carry/conceal on milspec weaponry is acceptable, so...

Wait .. "loading and unloading a possession doesn't consume services"..?