Full Version: My mage pwns yur streetsam!
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| With 4 IP my mage is back up to full power in 1 turn after stepping into a ward. |
No. He isn't.
Turn 1 He calls his Ally via shortcut
Turn 2 He casts his IP enhancement
Turn 3 He casts his Logic Enhancement, his Willpower Enhancement, his reaction Enhancement, and calls his super spirit via shortcut (eating a service).
Turn 4 he channels the spirit (Eating a service)
Ah, this mage. I see.
Ok, full stupid channel mage killer.
He runs you over with his van. You die. The van lives, so does he.
The breakdown:
[ Spoiler ]
He runs you over with his van. You die. The van lives, so does he.
The breakdown:
[ Spoiler ]
You can't drive a van into an office building. 
Why not? Most only have glass doors.
| QUOTE (Buster's first post) |
| Does anyone have an "ubermage" or an "ubercybersam" that can wipe out the opposition in "normal" arenas like in a street/bar/office short-to-medium range firefight? What if both characters have to pass through wards, guards, and security systems to reach their target? |
And yes, he easily passes by all checkpoints. You don't.
Ooo! Another build:
She has a dicepool of cha 10 + con 9 + pheremones 3 + receptors 2 + vocal extender 1 = 25 dice to seduce your mage.
Your mage gets Con or negotiation 0 + cha 1 = 1 die.
Modifers for the seduction are:
At worst, -4 enemy, result is disastrous -4, = -8 to my dicepool.
That puts me at 17 dice + edge reroll vs your 1 die + edge. You're seduced. She asks you to please have the spirit leave you because she wants to know the real you. You happily comply and she also asks you to stop sustaining all your spells. You do that too. Then she punches you dead.
[ Spoiler ]
She has a dicepool of cha 10 + con 9 + pheremones 3 + receptors 2 + vocal extender 1 = 25 dice to seduce your mage.
Your mage gets Con or negotiation 0 + cha 1 = 1 die.
Modifers for the seduction are:
At worst, -4 enemy, result is disastrous -4, = -8 to my dicepool.
That puts me at 17 dice + edge reroll vs your 1 die + edge. You're seduced. She asks you to please have the spirit leave you because she wants to know the real you. You happily comply and she also asks you to stop sustaining all your spells. You do that too. Then she punches you dead.
ROFL!!!!
I'm enjoying the fact that most everyone was thinking of how to use a Sammy to get a bullet into the Ubermage, and Tarantula just took a different route.
I'm enjoying the fact that most everyone was thinking of how to use a Sammy to get a bullet into the Ubermage, and Tarantula just took a different route.
Again, this is slightly off topic - but I WOULD in the future like to see more options for mundanes for Karma expenditure.
Just a nitpick on your build btw:
| QUOTE |
| CYBERWARE (Cost = 128,000 ¥) Cost Essence Name Rating 25000 (0.1) EPE: Daredrenaline (+1 all Willpower tests) 40000 (0.2) Trauma Damper (-1 Stun or 1 Physical -> 1 Stun) (40000) (0.3) Pain Editor (+1 Will, -1 Int, no effect from Stun) 12000 0.64 Skillwires 4 (alpha) (4000) upgrade to Skillwires 4 3000 0.1 Skillwires Expert System |
Essence costs:
Bio: 0.6
0.1 daredrenaline
0.2 trauma damper
0.3 pain editor
Cyber: 0.74
0.64 Skillwires 4 alpha
0.1 skillwire expert
Bio is less, makes it halved, for 0.3 essence. + 0.74 = 1.04 essence spent, You lost another point of magic.
| QUOTE |
| Spells sustained by ally spirit: Increased Reaction force 9 (DV 2) Increased Intuition force 9 (DV 2) Increased Willpower force 9 (DV 2) Increased Reflexes force 4 (DV 1) +3 init, +3 IP Physical Mask force 6 (DV 4) (hides the shamanic mask effect of his possession spirit) |
Casting increased reaction at force 9 is fine. And bumps you up to 10. But once your spirit posseses you, your augmented is over 9, and thus increased reaction doesn't do anything. Making your reaction a solid 13 while possesed.
| QUOTE |
| Drain Resistance dice: 14 = 4 Int + 5 Willpower + 1 Daredrenaline + 1 Trauma Damper + 3 Centering Drain Resistance (augmented): 23 = 9 Int + 9 Willpower + 1 Daredrenaline + 1 Trauma Damper + 3 Centering |
Your trauma damper doesn't give you a bonus dice on resisting drain.
You also lack the ability to actually get your ally spirit. Logic 1 + arcana 0 extended test 5, 1day. You would most likely critically glitch it every time.
| QUOTE |
| Summoning: 19 dice (6 magic + 6 summoning + 2 spec + 2 power focus + 3 summoning focus) vs 12 dice from spirit |
Actually, you can only use one focus per test. So its 17 dice.
| QUOTE |
| Drain Resistance dice: 14 = 4 Int + 5 Willpower + 1 Daredrenaline + 1 Trauma Damper + 3 Centering DV = 2 * raw hits scored by spirit |
As I said, you're -1 from the trauma dampener not actually being a die bonus. Puts you at 13 for your drain resistance. Average is 4 hits for the spirit. Since he's rating 12 thats physical damage. Making it 8P. Drain resistance puts you at average 4 hits, making you take 4P every time you conjure him. Also, you usually only get 1 service from him. (17 dice vs 12 dice). If you're lucky, you get 2.
Not to mention that you actually only have 5 magic, so you can't even summon a force 12 spirit.
| QUOTE |
| 7 karma Initiate rating 1 (Channeling) 8 karma Initiate rating 2 (Ally Conjuration) 8 karma Ally force 1 10 karma Initiate rating 3 (Centering) |
10 + (1 x 3) = 13 for grade 1
10 + (2 x 3) = 16 for grade 2
10 + (3 x 3) = 19 for grade 3.
You don't have the karma
If you're part of a group it costs you 5karma to join a group. Its also an arcana 0 + logic 1 test to join. Threshold is 1 +1 for every 5 members int he group. Assuming they have less than 5, you have a 1/3rd chance to fail. You get 2 shot at this, and then the group can't accept you, ever.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
No. He isn't. Turn 1 He calls his Ally via shortcut Turn 2 He casts his IP enhancement Turn 3 He casts his Logic Enhancement, his Willpower Enhancement, his reaction Enhancement, and calls his super spirit via shortcut (eating a service). Turn 4 he channels the spirit (Eating a service) |
Ah true (well, mostly true):
First turn:
IP 1 - Increased Reflexes
Next turn:
IP 1 - call spirit via metaplanar shortcut (does NOT cost a service, see the FAQ)
IP 2 - Increased Reaction 9
IP 3 - Increased Int 9
IP 4 - Increased Will or whatever
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| And yes, he easily passes by all checkpoints. You don't. |
No that is not true as I've shown several times in this thread.
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 14 2007, 01:24 PM) |
| Casting increased reaction at force 9 is fine. And bumps you up to 10. But once your spirit posseses you, your augmented is over 9, and thus increased reaction doesn't do anything. Making your reaction a solid 13 while possesed. |
Not true (twice). First, Force 9 Increased X only brings X up to 9. Second, augmented maximum of host+spirit=host+spirit*1.5 not host*1.5.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| 10 + (1 x 3) = 13 for grade 1 10 + (2 x 3) = 16 for grade 2 10 + (3 x 3) = 19 for grade 3. You don't have the karma |
Ever hear of group membership and ordeals?
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Not to mention that you actually only have 5 magic, so you can't even summon a force 12 spirit. |
That depends on the GM. Most (not all though) allow buying back the lost Magic from Essence loss at chargen. The extra 10 BP is already shown in the build.
| QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 14 2007, 01:13 PM) | ||
Not true (twice). First, Force 9 Increased X only brings X up to 9. Second, augmented maximum of host+spirit=host+spirit*1.5 not host*1.5. |
Force of your increase X spell must equal or exceed your augmented value. While possessed, your augmented value is 13. 9 is not equal or greater than 13, and thus, the spell does nothing while you are possessed.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
That depends on the GM. Most (not all though) allow buying back the lost Magic from Essence loss at chargen. The extra 10 BP is already shown in the build. |
As I said, you lost 1.04 essence. You've bought one point back, but you've lost 2.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
Ever hear of group membership and ordeals? |
Inserting my full quote. I did address group membership. You can't pass the test to join a group. Even if you do, you don't have the karma to spare to join.
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 14 2007, 01:24 PM) |
| You also lack the ability to actually get your ally spirit. Logic 1 + arcana 0 extended test 5, 1day. You would most likely critically glitch it every time. |
Not with my spirit's Guard power running 24/7 I won't. Glitches are for muggles.
Besides, it isnt a complete build, I would just buy an Arcana 4 skillsoft and a couple more Logic points and call it a day.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Inserting my full quote. I did address group membership. You can't pass the test to join a group. Even if you do, you don't have the karma to spare to join. |
Again: this is not a complete build, it's not an issue.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
No that is not true as I've shown several times in this thread. |
Considering it costs you 4P in drain to resummon your spirit after passing through one, it is not "easy". Not to mention time wasted recasting your buff spells.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
That depends on the GM. Most (not all though) allow buying back the lost Magic from Essence loss at chargen. The extra 10 BP is already shown in the build. |
I have a hard... and I do mean HARD time swallowing Most.
Some? Sure, I'll buy it. Yours? Hey, you'd know.
Most? strains my poor belief system, it does. Of course, I'm biased. I wouldn't allow it and wouldn't look back about it.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) | ||||
Considering it costs you 4P in drain to resummon your spirit after passing through one, it is not "easy". Not to mention time wasted recasting your buff spells. |
Why in the world would I summon the spirit again? Again: Check the FAQ, possession does not cost a service.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
Not with my spirit's Guard power running 24/7 I won't. Glitches are for muggles. Besides, it isnt a complete build, I would just buy an Arcana 4 skillsoft and a couple more Logic points and call it a day. |
"7 karma Initiate rating 1 (Channeling)
8 karma Initiate rating 2 (Ally Conjuration)
8 karma Ally force 1
10 karma Initiate rating 3 (Centering)
2 karma specialize Summoning
= 35 karma"
You don't have the 5karma required to join the group.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||||||
Why in the world would I summon the spirit again? Again: Check the FAQ, possession does not cost a service. |
I checked the FAQ. There is nothing in it addressing possession and the expenditure of a service. It costs you a service to be possessed by the spirit.
| QUOTE (Spike) | ||||
I have a hard... and I do mean HARD time swallowing Most. Some? Sure, I'll buy it. Yours? Hey, you'd know. Most? strains my poor belief system, it does. Of course, I'm biased. I wouldn't allow it and wouldn't look back about it. |
Come on now, you want to talk carebear GMs? Your GM lets you use Charisma + Con as a mind control spell and lets a troll covered in illegal cyberware walk around unchallenged where ever he wants. And that's without mentioning the van in the hallways and Thor shots...
(Although the van in the office building would make a great A Team moment.)
What troll in illegal cybeware?
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||||||
Come on now, you want to talk carebear GMs? Your GM lets you use Charisma + Con as a mind control spell and lets a troll covered in illegal cyberware walk around unchallenged where ever he wants. And that's without mentioning the van in the hallways and Thor shots... (Although the van in the office building would make a great A Team moment.) |
Seduction isn't mind control. But considering you have a vast 1 die to resist it, it might as well be.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) | ||||||||
I checked the FAQ. There is nothing in it addressing possession and the expenditure of a service. It costs you a service to be possessed by the spirit. |
If you read this thread, you'd know that someone already posted the page number that proves you wrong.
No, and it doesn't prove me wrong. Nor is it an official FAQ in any sense.
Those pages say, "Physical tasks require services only if they are especially dangerous, complicated, or require the spirit’s powers or paranatural abilities to complete." Having it possess you for the purpose of utilizing its magic to live through combats would be dangerous, and cost a service.
Not to mention the text explicitly mentions materialization, astral form, and energy aura. Not possession.
Those pages say, "Physical tasks require services only if they are especially dangerous, complicated, or require the spirit’s powers or paranatural abilities to complete." Having it possess you for the purpose of utilizing its magic to live through combats would be dangerous, and cost a service.
Not to mention the text explicitly mentions materialization, astral form, and energy aura. Not possession.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
7 karma Initiate rating 1 (Channeling) 8 karma Initiate rating 2 (Ally Conjuration) 8 karma Ally force 1 10 karma Initiate rating 3 (Centering) |
You need to spend 5 karma to join a group in the first place.
5+7+8+8+10=38 karma. You can't do it.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||||||
Come on now, you want to talk carebear GMs? Your GM lets you use Charisma + Con as a mind control spell and lets a troll covered in illegal cyberware walk around unchallenged where ever he wants. And that's without mentioning the van in the hallways and Thor shots... (Although the van in the office building would make a great A Team moment.) |
Sir, I'm afraid you have me mistaken for someone else. I'm the one that doesn't care how many dice the pornomancer throughs, the NPCs still just 'really like him, a lot' not "I'll mortgage my house to pay for your prices to do this run" or whatever broken shit they try to pull.
Ditto trying to walk around in AAA neighborhoods just this side of a cyberzombie nuclear bomb...
Or, building a character aroud the concept of 'I'm really playing a farce 12 possessing spirit' and expecting not to have to roll dice to pull it off, or having to survive the time to get that karma to get there.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Ditto trying to walk around in AAA neighborhoods just this side of a cyberzombie nuclear bomb... Or, building a character aroud the concept of 'I'm really playing a farce 12 possessing spirit' and expecting not to have to roll dice to pull it off, or having to survive the time to get that karma to get there. |
I already explained all that, I can't keep explaining to people who can't be bothered to read the thread.
Isn't the 'real' plan here to do something resembling a valid comparision "Who can pass the most cooked up encounters" ie the same game test.
So get a pre generated adventure - can I suggest 'on the run' and distill at each step what you have to do to move onto the next scene, using what is outlined in the text
Then you can benchmark the sammie and the mage against each other by who can pass the most encounters without help!
Tada?
So get a pre generated adventure - can I suggest 'on the run' and distill at each step what you have to do to move onto the next scene, using what is outlined in the text
Then you can benchmark the sammie and the mage against each other by who can pass the most encounters without help!
Tada?
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Isn't the 'real' plan here to do something resembling a valid comparision "Who can pass the most cooked up encounters" ie the same game test. So get a pre generated adventure - can I suggest 'on the run' and distill at each step what you have to do to move onto the next scene, using what is outlined in the text Then you can benchmark the sammie and the mage against each other by who can pass the most encounters without help! Tada? |
Well, that would be nice, but since Tarantula and I are the only ones who've put in the time to create actual builds, I don't see how that's going to happen. But if you have a favorite mage, adept, cyberonin, hacker build that you'd like to post...
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Never mind that knowing which fork to use never got anyone laid.... |
It would indeed be hard to prove *knowing how to fork* led to *forking*, But, not knowing which fork to use has ostracized many people, who then had no access to the beautiful/handsome sex object who did know which fork to use.
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
Well, that would be nice, but since Tarantula and I are the only ones who've put in the time to create actual builds, I don't see how that's going to happen. But if you have a favorite mage, adept, cyberonin, hacker build that you'd like to post... |
Don't forget my combat mage. For the sake of completeness, here are two more builds.
This first one is a sammie. Durable and capable of dishing out a lot of damage, but less suited for stealthy environments. And his permits might get him past the cyberscanners, but he will still have to deal with increased scrutiny afterwards.
[ Spoiler ]
I took a different approach with my hybrid (adept with a bit of bioware). Not as fast or deadly, but with a lot more B&E gear, and a lot more low-key. He can enter a facility with no weapons at all, but still be deadly because of his killing hands, and his ability to pick up anything lying around to use as a lethal missile weapon.
[ Spoiler ]
Okay, so I'll do an adventure - anyone recommend a free adventure on the net that presents a spectrum of challenges? Maybe I should just see if I can find an SR missions one.
Okay, there are two types of events (Mandatory) Which you have to do to complete the mission, and Bonus/Penalty which give you a number of +/- points.
Basically write down how much of each you can do yourself, and if you need a hand on any given event.
Okay, let us begin
WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE SR MISSIONS MISSION 'THE GRAB'
Maximum possible points: 8 Mandatory and 9 bonus points
Basically, pit your character up against the 'tests' - some of which will require a bit of imagination - and see what you can pull! If you need support (because you are a cyberszombine and cannot really infiltrate the school) mark it as such.
Edit: I've tightened up the test a bit.
Basically write down how much of each you can do yourself, and if you need a hand on any given event.
Okay, let us begin
WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE SR MISSIONS MISSION 'THE GRAB'
Maximum possible points: 8 Mandatory and 9 bonus points
Basically, pit your character up against the 'tests' - some of which will require a bit of imagination - and see what you can pull! If you need support (because you are a cyberszombine and cannot really infiltrate the school) mark it as such.
Edit: I've tightened up the test a bit.
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (Buster) | ||
I already explained all that, I can't keep explaining to people who can't be bothered to read the thread. |
Ah, yes, the infamous: "I have no argument, so I'll go ad hominem on everyone who proves me wrong" argument. Sorry, but whinging isn't the way to win arguments.
At any event, someone check me here, but even with a possessing spirit, isn't the mage still subject to the attribute caps? That means, at best, he can get his physical stats up to a 9; a trivial task for any sammie.
With possession, attribute cap becomes (natural attribute + force of spirit) x 1.5- so being possessed by a force 8 spirit puts your minimum possible physical stat as baseline augmented max for a human without genetech or a quality.
Possession is the good.
Chris
Possession is the good.
Chris
ummm...
=Attributes=
Body: 5
Agility: 5 [7]
Reaction: 5 [6]
Strength: 3
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
i have 2 different character generators that think your core attributes cost 240 not 160.
=Attributes=
Body: 5
Agility: 5 [7]
Reaction: 5 [6]
Strength: 3
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
i have 2 different character generators that think your core attributes cost 240 not 160.
| QUOTE (rythymhack) |
| i have 2 different character generators that think your core attributes cost 240 not 160. |
Even as an ork? (20BP on race)
I get 190 as an ork, but I didn't double check, but yeah, he listed race 20BP and that at least gets him close.
Chris
Chris
| QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 15 2007, 12:27 AM) | ||||
Ah, yes, the infamous: "I have no argument, so I'll go ad hominem on everyone who proves me wrong" argument. Sorry, but whinging isn't the way to win arguments. |
What "ad hominem" attack? I said I'm not going to repeat myself for everyone who can't be bothered to read the thread. What you just said was an ad hominem attack. Why don't you contribute something useful instead of just flinging incoherent insults?
I believe he is referring to the implied 'you are too lazy and/or stupid to know what I know' smug attitude that your post contains. Anytime someone starts saying 'I don't have to tell you because you should already know' it weakens their position.
Amusingly, I wasn't trying to argue a specific point with you that requires knowing or not knowing every defensive smokescreen you've tossed up in 8 pages of thread. I was just making my 'as a GM I wouldn't play the way you are implying I'd play' statement amusingly connected to your 'I want to play a spirit' mage.
But since you seem to WANT opponents to debate about how legal and not broken in rules/spirit this guy is, I'll go ahead and take my Streetmagic book with me today so I can bone up on it. I know you won't really listen, but hey, I'm not doing it for your amusement.
Amusingly, I wasn't trying to argue a specific point with you that requires knowing or not knowing every defensive smokescreen you've tossed up in 8 pages of thread. I was just making my 'as a GM I wouldn't play the way you are implying I'd play' statement amusingly connected to your 'I want to play a spirit' mage.
But since you seem to WANT opponents to debate about how legal and not broken in rules/spirit this guy is, I'll go ahead and take my Streetmagic book with me today so I can bone up on it. I know you won't really listen, but hey, I'm not doing it for your amusement.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| His only weakness is that his possession spirit will trip Wards, so he'll be vulnerable for the single IP it takes for him to drop his possession spirit, walk into the ward, and metaplanar shortcut the spirit back into him. He could potentially take a lot of drain from summoning the spirit every sunrise and sunset, but he has plenty of Edge for an unlucky dice roll and he has cyberware and a first aid kit to handle the rest. I might spend the 63 free BP on Binding skills and foci to eliminate that potential threat. |
Flaw One in your reasoning: Metaplanar shortcuts use services. Every time you pass through that ward (minimum one in, once out unless you plan on crashing it) is a service.
Bog Forbid the run takes you through multiple high powered wards. I can actually see that: Send an ubermage to raid magical research facilities. The McGuffin's needed to complete the run are scattered in seperate laboratories, each protected by their own ward, each ward cast by a high powered initiate for the purposes of keeping the lab's 'spiritually sterile' to prevent disruptions to the magical expirements.
You're guy can either stand around outside the labs looking tough while the 'suck it muggles' runners actually try to find the stuff sneakily in the lab. He can blow massive numbers of services in the run, or he can try to pop the wards and bluster his way through the high numbers of enemy mages implied by a magical research facility, who will all undboubtedly have lots of banishment dice.
And oddly enough, that is exactly the sort of runs this guy would find himself on... going after high powered magical threats, because everyone knows he's the big bad magic runner.
| QUOTE |
| Okay, there are two types of events (Mandatory) Which you have to do to complete the mission, and Bonus/Penalty which give you a number of +/- points. Basically write down how much of each you can do yourself, and if you need a hand on any given event. Okay, let us begin WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE SR MISSIONS MISSION 'THE GRAB' Maximum possible points: 8 Mandatory and 9 bonus points Basically, pit your character up against the 'tests' - some of which will require a bit of imagination - and see what you can pull! If you need support (because you are a cyberszombine and cannot really infiltrate the school) mark it as such. Edit: I've tightened up the test a bit. |
I'll put forward my elf girl who was posted on page 7, 6th post down.
[ Spoiler ]
I like your elf face build. One pointer: the Elf metarace only costs 30 BP, so you get 10 BP back there (unless the Female attribute costs 10 BP )
)
Must've typoed it and then just assumed it was good. Thanks, she's been edited to make use of that.
The Elf girl in conjunction with either or those other two characters would be an interesting combo to have in a game. The mage (or uber-troll) could help take out physical threats while she protected them from retaliation.
LoneStar Mage: "Excuse me, Sir ... Unregistered spells and/or astral entities of that power are prohibited in this area without specific license."
Elf Girl: (stepping in front) "Who, him? Actually, officer, this is Dunkelzahn. He's returned from beyond in the guise of this skinny, unassuming human because .. well, that's a secret. But if you'd like, officer, he can give you an autograph." (Rolls 50-billion Con dice)
LoneStar Mage: "Excuse me, Sir ... Unregistered spells and/or astral entities of that power are prohibited in this area without specific license."
Elf Girl: (stepping in front) "Who, him? Actually, officer, this is Dunkelzahn. He's returned from beyond in the guise of this skinny, unassuming human because .. well, that's a secret. But if you'd like, officer, he can give you an autograph." (Rolls 50-billion Con dice)
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