Watchers are STUPID.

The one free slot that a combat and investigation mage has is probably more cost effectively reserved for calling up a spirit he needs for something urgent. Like movement or finding a wanted suspect or concealing a team. You really don't want to be having to bind your force 6 combat spirits very often because you ran them out of services they you could have summoned a force 3 spirt for, but couldn't because some idiot in command had you running a rock stupid watcher spirit around.

So Lone Star gets to cough up $3000 and a full day of you time to TRY to bind another, plus the two other mages to cover you during the attempt, in case you pass out and the force 6 fire spirit goes uncontrolled in the station.

Hmm, 12 dice against 12 dice. Bet it's going to take a few days. . .

So this is cost effective how again?

Damn, I've really got to get access to my books again, I missed that little gem completely.


However personally I see scanners/Watchers as only really being a major problem in the highest rated security zones, Lonestar and it's rivals don't want to actually stamp out crime, they just want to fight it enough that people stay scared enough continue to buy service.

Besides, as long as the Runners don't target a company that contracts them then why should Lonestar care whether or not they are illegal provided everything is concealed enough that the sheep aren't thrown into a panic?

*Edit*

Yes, I understand that Lonestar and crew would want to know what the Runners were carrying, if for no other reason then to know how much of a bribe to levy, but as long as the Runners aren't bothering paying customers it is more cost effective and safer to hassle some poor slot who is guilty of "driving while orc".

Heh. I love Arcane vs. Samurai threads. It never fails that someone will overlook that there are no inherient advantage to being a Mundane character except that you can raise attributes and skills while a Mage is busy raising magic.

...As if having less options to spend Karma on was somehow an advantage.

I'm sure I'll be rehashing old points, but the single greatest advantage Awakened Characters have is that it inevitably takes another Awakened Character to counter them. And what saves mundane characters from awakened characters? Why, other awakened characters generous to lend spell resistance dice do, of course!

It's a silly point to really even argue. The fact of the matter is that Mundane characters are cooler because Science Fiction is superior to silly floofy elf shaman fantasies. But there is no numeric advantage to playing a Mundane. At all.

And since the outcomes of most contested moments in an RPG are decided by dice, which stems from probability, which is mathematic, which is based on numeric traits...

Well, as I said. There isn't much of a leg to stand on. And the issue only compounds itself as the game goes on.

-ss

P.S. Attribute/Skill caps don't help the matter, either. And don't give me that silly shit about overlooking the themeatic aspects of the game, or rollplaying instead of roleplaying.

EDIT:

In the spirit of actually adding something useful to this conversation, I should probably point out that the most effective By The Numbers character will be a Hybrid character that integrates the advantages of both Cyber/Bio/Whatever with their magic abilities. Even at the expense of being an UberMage the spell defense alone is worth its weight in gold.

...but in the majority cases (and for the purpose of the OT of this thread) it still holds true. Generally speaking, if you're going to be a spellcaster of any worth to yourself or your team, you usually are going to have a halfway decent if not completely maxed out MA.

[edit]

...and if you plan on installing ware, you still need to buy that MA up otherwise you become a total burnout by implanting even a lowly datajack and thus lose access to any magical ability which includes Astral Perception/Projection and Counterspelling. Effectively you paid that 15 BPs only to be a mundane. So I see no distinct advantage to just taking the base MA of 1 you get with the Magician quality, for you will be a crappy spellcaster and be unable to take advantage of any augmentation.

...though it does make an interesting NPC concept.

Re: Forum Handle - Thanks. You've got some style to yours too. Gunslinger reference?

Re: 55 - 70 BPs. - A character with the Magician Merit certainly may make that purchase. Many will. Nothing forces them to however. It's a choice mundanes certainly don't have. And assuming that they do have to spend 55 - 70 BPs is rather telling, isn't it? Essentially you're telling me that mundanes without cyber are worthless.

-ss

Magical characters, given unlimited Karma, will eventually far outstrip their mundane counterparts. Initiation is not capped, and thus Magic can increase forever, along with ratings of powers such as kinesics, mystic armor, combat sense, and so on. Plus, there's nothing stopping a mage or adept with double-digit Magic from sacrificing five of those points to get five Essense points' worth of delta-grade cyberware and bioware.


At char-gen, though, awakened characters are far more limited. Mages are versatile, but spread thin. Even combat-oriented mages tend to shy away from the front-line role that a sammie takes. A sammie typically has heavy weaponry, high initiative, multiple initiative passes, enhanced accuracy (muscle toner, reflex recorders, smartlinks, etc.), and enhanced durability (orthoskin, bone lacing, etc.). They are the best option for building a competent combat generalist right out of the box (an adept with some bioware is the best option if you are going to be more specialized).


Here is a build from me (poor Buster, he wanted builds, and the only one so far is from him. ), of a straightforward combat mage. Fairly fast and durable, but still better off using invibility, levitate, and spirits than trying to go head to head with a sammie.

Hurray a build!

Well, not the build you requested - but just to point out that a non-magical non-cybered individual is not useless:



Granted, he may not be uber - but depending on how he uses the contacts, he'll be VERY useful to a team, and he's pretty doggone effective in most combat situations.

Also, this is without the 35 Karma. As I looked into that, there's your best justification for the improvement of Magic and Cybered over norms - in that Karma lets them get even more uber, whereas unaugmented norms are capped at 6 skill points and a specialization.

Uncybered characters aren't worthless, but they're not as good as cybered guys either. Their only real advantage is that you don't have to worry about scanners nor have you spent all your points on abilities and skills that will just be replaced with a superior model. Otherwise, you really are best off with taking a bunch of 'ware, because if nothing else you can do the same stuff as the natural guy for less bps at the cost of essence.
Here's my version of the MadDog's character with cyberware:



Basically turns out the same but with more skills, no more sensitive system and has 2 extra initiative passes. There's lots of reasons not to take any one given piece of cyberware, but going completely au naturale is rarely worth it either.

I'm sure that any minute now one side or the other in this "magic vs cyber lol!" debate will flawlessly convince everyone on the other side of the fence that they are correct.

Because it's not an argument that's been going on for more than ten years and four editions, or anything. Really. It's new ground that people are treading on here, and exciting new arguments and opinions that have never been heard before. Thank Jebus for the intertubes, and the sharing of information they allow us!

...basically to put it in the proverbial nutshell, she was one of twin daughters born to a respected and ambitious (in the social rankings sense) elven couple in Salem, Tir Taringire...the bad part, she was the human daughter.

Her backstory is a 110 page novella written in the narrative style as an exercise that grew out of a question put forth here on this forum that asked: "what would it really take to drive someone to become a Shadowrunner". An interesting experience I must say..

...PM me for more details.

...we now return to our regularly scheduled topic currently in progress.

But why the hell would a mundane not want the cyber? Especially if said mundane is a professional criminal risking his life and ware would lower the risk of death? Is he insane? A neo-Luddite?

Edited to lower assholic content. It's way too early to be typing with this headache.

In all fairness, though, the thread was about Samurai and Mages uberizing each other in the fine upstanding tradition of mortal combat. Though I definitely agree with you, MDM. Infact, there is something decidedly Cyberpunk about going about it entirely with a 'vanilla' -- Especially if you can make napalm in your bathtub.

That said, here are a few things to keep in mind when building your uber twink a Samurai/Mage Hybrid to achieve the most for your time:

1) Spell Defense is key. For the price of a worthwhile level of the Spell Resistance Merit, an awakened character can be tagged as awakened, and can *optionally* defend against incoming spells, cast spells, and summon spirits. You recognize this, which is one of the reasons you're going Hybrid.

2) Inititiave is King. To effectively make a hybrid, you're going to have to concede that your initiative needs to come from mundane sources. You don't need to have it dispelled in the middle of a firefight as there is nothing more humiliating, but you also don't need it super-maxed out. Shadowrun 4th edition is nice, that so long as your reaction/intuition attribute is sufficiently high you won't be as vulnerable in previous editions. Recommend 2-3 (Consider a Move by Wire system. The Skillsoft abilities will further reinforce the gaps created by allocating Awakened BPs) IP Passes, depending on build. Always spend the last round of combat achieving -full cover-.

3) Until further notice, take traditions with Intuition as the Tradition Drain Stat. This allows you to get double mileage out of a stat you need for both Inititiave as well as Spell Casting. Intelligence makes a nice dump-stat unless you're planning a Mage/Hacker (Perfectly Viable combination) Hybrid. And even then its not essential.

4) Always, always, ALWAYS take the mental manipulation spells. There is absolutely no reason not to. If you're presented with one spell and one spell only, make sure it is either Control Actions or Control Thoughts. The raw utility of this spell is incredible, and it is an ability that is not duplicated through mudane abilities. Also don't overlook the classics: Physical Mask, Invisibility, etc. Which brings us to...

5) Capitalize on unique awakened abilities, marginalized mundane abilities -- Everyone can shoot guns. Whoopity shit. So make sure you can dodge. Not everyone can resist an illusion. Take that into consideration---Your greatest strength is that you can do everything in the game except Technomance. And you can do them all just as well as a mundane, if you choose to.

6) Never cast a spell just because you're awakened. Always design your character to be able to use mundane approaches long before resorting to spell-craft. And never overlook mundane approaches to situations -- Invisibility? It's nice, but if you're risking drain then a smoke grenade will do. This boils down to: Never take drain when you don't have to -- That way, you can always credibly threaten that overcast XBolt from hell.

7) Above all - Continue to improve your grades of Cyberware. Don't be afraid to add more. The combination of your cyber, and your magic prowess is nigh unbeatable. And it will only get more and more pronounced as the game goes on.

-ss

EDIT: Unless your GM has ruled that Trauma Dampers don't soak Spell Drain, make sure you have one.

Steak and Spirits really needs his own thread titled


My pwn mages yur streetsam!

While it is certainly true that cyberware provides the most dice per BP in many cases... and in many more cases provides options that don't exist outside of Cyber/magic upgrades to the baseline, the case isn't that clear cut.

Pheromones are great, sure. IF you meet in person. Less and less true, and less and less necessary as the AR wireless world becomes increasingly used for social networking. Even today, in the real world, my girlfriend has far more freinds she has never met than freinds she talks to in person.

Also, hyperspecialization is not nearly as important as we often think. Sure a mundane will probably never beat a streetsam in a straightup firefight. Probably not in a kung fu battle either.

For every runner party that doesn't have a dedicated face (say, they use their shaman...) this guy is an upgrade. Sure, he'll never be as good as the pherome guy in face to face negoatiations, but if every dedicated face has pheromes, more and more Johnsons and contacts will prefer to keep meetings purely virtual. Ditto mind control magics. Ditto twice, because that shit will truly fuck things up for people.

As for hackers, last I checked, implants didn't really IMPROVE the hacker at all, merely provided an alternative to the non-invasive techniques.

Just sayin'. And yeah, its dumb to make a mundane then bitch about being subpar to the hyperspecialized cyber/mage/adept hybrid uberspec.

...On implantation & magic:

Technically, that may be true, but in the end, despite spending the extra BP costs, that adept will have two extra Power Points to allocate. So being more well-rounded in other areas is sacrificed to be damn tough in combat. Depending on the character role and the type of game, it can be worth it.

Mages, I feel, get boned more if they take any 'ware. They lose dice offensively, cast spells at a lower Force, and have a harder time soaking Drain. I could see a mage with hard-maxed Magic getting some 'ware - most mages start at 5 anyways, so he will be paying the price further down the road of character advancement. It might be worth it to get some top-of-the-line cybereyes, since LOS is so important to mages, and other choice items can be added later without going over 1 Essense. It's far less tempting from a min-maxing perspective, though, compared to adepts, who can get things that would cost them a lot more in Power Points.

As a quick aside...


Design and perfect a testcourse through which you can send a stream of mages and sammies, tailoring to both their strengths and weaknesses in an effort to determine their supremacy.

Aquire a Genetic Lifeform and Disk Operating System to autonomously continue the testing.

The science gets done and you get a sweet run, for the people who are still alive!


/end aside

The best 'ware for mages are those that automaticly soak damage and those that enhance drain stats.

A chargen mage with a Trauma Dampner, Cerebral Booster 2, and a Pain Editor can pretty much cast at stun drain forces with impunity. Add in a Platelet Factory and they can do a good job with physical drain, as well.

SS-

While I can agree that having more options is better than not having options in a general sense, to argue against the 'Karma sink' theory by simply dismissing it as 'ridiculous' is rather foolish.

Unless you are playing 'endless karma streams', there still must be a drive to a minimum level of specialization for most characters, and the wasted BP's or Karma to maintain a valid status as an Awakened character can be devestating to certain characters.

They guy who starts with a lot of cyberware must perforce spend lots of BP's to keep from hitting magic 0 at creation. Then, once play has started, he can either pump his karma into getting better at mundane stuff or he can pump it into being even a marginally useful hybrid... but its unlikely he can do both meaningfully.

meanwhile his partner the dedicated Mundane, and his other partner the 'awakened master hybrid' are not only out of the box better than him, but actually improving faster than he is.

At what point do you actually have enough Karma and enough money to really justify saying 'if only I'd gone hybrid I could keep improving'? At what point does the '15BP Mage' actually start outpacing the dedicated mundane or the 'run of the mill hybrid mage'?

If you are playing at those levels, more power to ya, but for most players... and I'd argue 'characters in setting' its really a non-issue that Mages have 'unlimited potential' over mundanes. Not if acheiving that unlimited potential takes longer than the average runner's lifespan.

Some of that 'generalists suck' will fall to game tone, however. Hyperspecialists can 'overkill' situations if the GM isn't trying to deliberately scale things to keep up.

A true 'Jack of ALL Trades' is gonna be pointless, but the guy with general competence in several fields and 'expertise' in three or four areas is pretty useful if they don't mind playing backup to the specialists.

He might not be your go-to guy for that 'This one shot is all we get, make it count' sniping, but he will let you put a dangerously competent 'second sniper' up if that's your bag. He might not have the schmooze potential of the team Face, but if he's working his contacts as the Face is working HIS contacts, the team still gets more information faster than if one guy was doing all the work.

The problem with most hyperspecialists (other than your edge dude.... but then I thought the addition of Edge was a mistake the moment I saw it... In Mechwarrior years ago...) is that the guy who has the skill to sneak past/wallclimb around security point Bravo might not be the guy who has the skill to disarm it so the rest of the team can get by. The guy that has the skills high enough? Yeah, hes the guy that didn't have the skills to survive the elite commando attack that just preceeded it.

Scaling everything to the specialists leaves the rest of the team useless when the specs are shining.

But as with everything else: Play to your table, not to mine. Especially when mine is notional for the purposes of discussing this topic.

You can accomplish all that with a skillwire samurai, who also has a combat speciality or two. Heck, you can make the skillwires the *point* of a character. A generalist, with high natural skills, isn't going to be much better than someone with similar stats and a Rating 3 skillwire set. Thank the starting caps for that one: no character can begin with more than 2 skills above rating 4.

I'd rather blame the broke ass skillwires...



....maybe Cyberpunk permanently warped my brain on that one though....

I house rule Skillwires so that they do not work for Social skills.

Isn't the generally accepted conversion 5000Â¥ for a karma? Shouldn't your comparison reflect this and either be 35karma and 175k nuyen, or 10 karma and 50k nuyen?

As for your build to kill him, give me a day, and the channeler will be dead.

Never mind that knowing which fork to use never got anyone laid....