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Cain
QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 15 2007, 05:31 AM)
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 15 2007, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 14 2007, 04:07 PM)
QUOTE (Spike @ Oct 14 2007, 03:37 PM)
Ditto trying to walk around in AAA neighborhoods just this side of a cyberzombie nuclear bomb...

Or, building a character aroud the concept of 'I'm really playing a farce 12 possessing spirit' and expecting not to have to roll dice to pull it off, or having to survive the time to get that karma to get there.  cool.gif

I already explained all that, I can't keep explaining to people who can't be bothered to read the thread.

Ah, yes, the infamous: "I have no argument, so I'll go ad hominem on everyone who proves me wrong" argument. Sorry, but whinging isn't the way to win arguments.

What "ad hominem" attack? I said I'm not going to repeat myself for everyone who can't be bothered to read the thread. What you just said was an ad hominem attack. Why don't you contribute something useful instead of just flinging incoherent insults?

I rest my case. cool.gif At any event, I'll educate you on Argumentum Ad Hominem, and leave it at that for now.

At any event, there are two pages on Possession as a service. First of all, it requires a service to do anything complicated. Second, you specified that you were using Guard as a service. That east your one service, and once the spirit dismounts, it's gone. It has to be physical to use guard, so once it discorporates, the service is over.
Buster
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 15 2007, 12:47 PM)
The Elf girl in conjunction with either or those other two characters would be an interesting combo to have in a game. The mage (or uber-troll) could help take out physical threats while she protected them from retaliation.

LoneStar Mage: "Excuse me, Sir ... Unregistered spells and/or astral entities of that power are prohibited in this area without specific license."
Elf Girl: (stepping in front) "Who, him? Actually, officer, this is Dunkelzahn. He's returned from beyond in the guise of this skinny, unassuming human because .. well, that's a secret. But if you'd like, officer, he can give you an autograph." (Rolls 50-billion Con dice)

Definitely, some sort of Face is a must-have in any modern environment. Really any combo of Mage, Face, Tank, Hacker, Rigger is amazingly effective. Shadowrun is geared towards teams of specialists rather than gangs of generalists.
Orient
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 15 2007, 12:47 PM)
The Elf girl in conjunction with either or those other two characters would be an interesting combo to have in a game. The mage (or uber-troll) could help take out physical threats while she protected them from retaliation.

LoneStar Mage: "Excuse me, Sir ... Unregistered spells and/or astral entities of that power are prohibited in this area without specific license."
Elf Girl: (stepping in front) "Who, him? Actually, officer, this is Dunkelzahn. He's returned from beyond in the guise of this skinny, unassuming human because .. well, that's a secret. But if you'd like, officer, he can give you an autograph." (Rolls 50-billion Con dice)

Definitely, some sort of Face is a must-have in any modern environment. Really any combo of Mage, Face, Tank, Hacker, Rigger is amazingly effective. Shadowrun is geared towards teams of specialists rather than gangs of generalists.

Well, to an extent. In my experience, there are certain things that really benefit the team if everyone's at least passably skilled in them. Stealth-type skills are definitely one of those things. While various combinations of hackers and Concealment-using spirits go a long way, it can kinda suck if the team gets separated or needs to improvise.

...just my experience, though. Clearly not something that carries across every game.
rythymhack
ah. it was late. missed the ork part. it is 190...which still pakes it different than what was posted, which may throw off his point total (which was my point).
Buster
QUOTE (Orient)
In my experience, there are certain things that really benefit the team if everyone's at least passably skilled in them. Stealth-type skills are definitely one of those things. While various combinations of hackers and Concealment-using spirits go a long way, it can kinda suck if the team gets separated or needs to improvise.

True, it seems like everyone needs (or at least really should have) Infiltration, First Aid, Perception, and Etiquette. A specialist medic, watcher, or face does all those better, but its faster if everyone first aids themselves and smarter to have multiple chances to spot important information (and its always smarter to not piss people off).
Tarantula
First Aid, not so much. Slap patches yes. First aid, you really just need 2 people with it, one good, and one decent (in case the good guy goes down, a mage with heal can sub for the 2nd also). Its bad to be first aiding with your own wound modifiers. Not to mention the time it takes.
Buster
Good point about the slap patches. But if time was an issue wouldnt it be better to have everyone first aid themselves? I guess it's better to have options. Invest in Skillwires! biggrin.gif
Cain
Don't forget medkits. With those, First aid doesn't exactly become redundant, but it drops in necessity.

QUOTE

Definitely, some sort of Face is a must-have in any modern environment. Really any combo of Mage, Face, Tank, Hacker, Rigger is amazingly effective. Shadowrun is geared towards teams of specialists rather than gangs of generalists.

Agree with you 100%. Teams of hyperspecialists, with a smattering of backup skills, will bowl over any generalist team out there.
Tarantula
Not really. Takes combat turns = to boxes healed. Its an after combat thing.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Cain)
Don't forget medkits. With those, First aid doesn't exactly become redundant, but it drops in necessity.

QUOTE

Definitely, some sort of Face is a must-have in any modern environment. Really any combo of Mage, Face, Tank, Hacker, Rigger is amazingly effective. Shadowrun is geared towards teams of specialists rather than gangs of generalists.

Agree with you 100%. Teams of hyperspecialists, with a smattering of backup skills, will bowl over any generalist team out there.

...however, medkits add their rating to the First Aid pool so the chance of healing the maximum of 6 boxes go up for someone who has the skill.

Example: Logic 3 + First Aid 3 + medkit 6 = 12 dice for an average of 4 boxes healed

Rating 6 Medkit alone = average of 2 boxes healed.

Remember, you also have to take surrounding conditions and implants into effect which reduce the DP

Tarantula
Not to mention -2 for someone being awakened. But theres always the ever helpful (Combat Wounds) spec for first aid.
Fortune
Don't forget there's a Threshold of 2 on Healing tests as well.
Glyph
QUOTE (rythymhack)
ah. it was late. missed the ork part. it is 190...which still pakes it different than what was posted, which may throw off his point total (which was my point).

The challenge parameters also include 35 points of Karma, which I used to increase three of his stats - I broke down how I spent the Karma, too, so you can see it right on the sheet.
Glyph
My guys were pretty much designed to be combat monsters, not solo runners, but I'll see how the sammie does on Cthulhudreams' mission. I will assume requiring backup means no point.

[ Spoiler ]
Cthulhudreams
Interested to see how a mage would go.

The 3 early neg +charisma tests are for negotiating with the Johnson, so mind controlling probably isn't inappropriate.
Glyph
Mages can be versatile, but the one I did is actually more limited than the sammie or adept. Spells and spirits make up for it a bit, though. No mental manipulations, though. I guess I don't care for them that much, notwithstanding how effective they can be.

[ Spoiler ]

Glyph
Finally, the adept, just to be complete.

[ Spoiler ]
DTFarstar
Give me a bit(gotta go to bed class in 7 hours) and I will post a build tomorrow afternoon. She looks like a winner in my head, but we will see.

Chris
Cthulhudreams
There might be too many points in the face meeting, but your guys haven't been pitching for that. Still, in general it might be better to change those those bonus points from 5 -> 2, 1 point for 1-3 net successes, 2 for 4-5.
raggedhalo
@tarantula: "Leftie" is a short form for lieutenant, pronounced properly* (i.e. leftenant).


*: By "properly," I mean "in the British fashion."
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (raggedhalo @ Oct 16 2007, 04:37 AM)
@tarantula:  "Leftie" is a short form for lieutenant, pronounced properly* (i.e. leftenant).


*: By "properly," I mean "in the British fashion."

Sorry, I missed that earlier. And yeah, I tend to use it when writing at a terminal that doesn't have a spell checker!

With the encounters/adventure plan, I was just throwing down some encounters based on an SR4 missions PDF I stripped the flavour text out of. So thats what a runner team is supposed to be able to do. It's a modified (read: crappier) version of the 'same game' test for D&D that FT proposed on the WOTC boards as a way of testing character balance. You throw that characters against challenges of their CR and if they win/lose 50/50 whatever it is is balanced, because if all characters carry their weight that often they are all roughly on par power wise - the same game.

SR doesn't provide such an easy mechanism for such a test which is why I resorted to using a canned adventure's challenges, because thats something an SR team would need to do.

The intresting thing is that the combat monsters are actually probably a reasonably balanced part of a team, with a face and a hacker/rigger

I'm not really looking to 'test' a character a character against that challenge, I'm just asking 'can your character as written deal with three prime runners in a fast moving vechile chasing after you' or whatever. The concepts move from hard tests -> abstract encounters when the text does.

[ Spoiler ]


A really nasty character is going to be able to munch more than 50% of encounters. If ya think your character is 'busted' (not my call_ throw down and say this is the optimal tactic for the DM in this challenge, and this is how I throw down and punch it in the face.

However, if someone else can write a better 'same game' test that mine (which sucks) that would be a better. The ones I posted really distill into

-> Talk to the face

-> Conduct a fight against outnumbering but crappy opponents with guns after walking through a ward and security checkpoint.

-> Legwork with no infomation

-> Infiltrate a secure area with electronic and physical security

-> Conduct a gunfight vs mid range professionals and supporting drones in an enviroment that precludes normal tactics (kids running around EVERYWHERE, precluding the use of non precision weapons)

-> Conduct a gunfight on the run vs prime runners with heavy weapons.

Other things I can see

-> Inflitrate a compound with extensive magical protection and some physical and electronic security

-> Assassinate a guarded VIP in a public location, then escape undetected.

-> attack a secure compound while being attacked by spirits.

Anything else? There isn't enough emphasis on face work in my list, it is a bit combat centric.
Critias
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
-> Conduct a gunfight vs mid range professionals and supporting drones in an enviroment that precludes normal tactics (kids running around EVERYWHERE, precluding the use of non precision weapons)

Sure, sure, the little bastards running around all over the place, waving their arms and screaming, might muck up a shot or two and provide your opponents a few little mobile Rating 1 Barriers (good for one shot each), or maybe if their little bodies get stacked high enough they'll absorb a bit of grenade blast or something, but, really...

I don't see how they outright preclude normal tactics.
Orient
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Oct 16 2007, 06:03 AM)
-> Conduct a gunfight vs mid range professionals and supporting drones in an enviroment that precludes normal tactics (kids running around EVERYWHERE, precluding the use of non precision weapons)

Sure, sure, the little bastards running around all over the place, waving their arms and screaming, might muck up a shot or two and provide your opponents a few little mobile Rating 1 Barriers (good for one shot each), or maybe if their little bodies get stacked high enough they'll absorb a bit of grenade blast or something, but, really...

I don't see how they outright preclude normal tactics.

I agree. A quick LoneStar Tactics knowledge skill roll to see if they're supposed to protect first, serve first, or shoot first....

...then, assuming they don't have a mage with them, throw a quick stunball at a group of children. Hopefully, the 'Star will stop to make sure they're okay. For more evil characters, maybe a force 1 Manaball.
DTFarstar
And for even more evil characters a Force 5 Toxic Wave.

Chris
Tarantula
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
And for even more evil characters a Force 5 Toxic Wave.

Chris

Why eat that drain? Just go for the HE nade at that point.
Orient
Well, killing children won't necessarily slow down Lonestar nearly as much as just wounding children. wink.gif

A low force manabolt will just make folks bleed without any obvious "They've just been hit by 300 gallons of acid" type effect to go along with it. If that confuses/concerns your actual opponents, then that's a good thing.
Tarantula
Yeah, but the grenade gives you a few meters of dead chunky children, a few of just dead children, a few of severely wounded ones, a few more more of fairly wounded ones, some lightly wounded ones, and a few more of some permanently scarred for life ones.
Orient
...and are usable by more characters. Flashbang, maybe?
GryMor
This is using a slight tweak of my current character (Human Shintoist with crippling physical disabilities), advanced to the 35 karma level (Initiation 10, Ally Spirit 8, +1 magic 15, Spec 2).

Important notes: Edge 6, Magic 5 after cyber/bioware and advancement. 1s in all physicals and intuition, mentor spirit of Amaterasu (+2 Health, +2 Ancestor Spirits), Rating 4 skillwires, datajack, platelet factory, trauma dampner. Has spells for amping his body and mental stats, physical non detection, a few combat spells and levitation. His familiar handles sustaining them. Usually casts at max force, using his portable medical shop (in the hovercraft) to cover any unresisted drain (but can auto resist most drain).

[ Spoiler ]


So, 12, with one or two of them being iffy. Almost the same build, but as an elf, would have done quite a bit better due to the face work, but, he usually works with an uber face (and a technomancer), so this is pretty good for dong a solo job.
Tarantula
GryMor, I'd love to actually see that character sheet.
Buster
QUOTE (GryMor)
This is using a slight tweak of my current character (Human Shintoist with crippling physical disabilities), advanced to the 35 karma level (Initiation 10, Ally Spirit 8, +1 magic 15, Spec 2).

Holy crap, initiate 10 and ally spirit 8 from 35 karma?
Tarantula
I think those are his costs. Initiation 10 karma, ally spirit 8 karma, +1 magic 15 karma, and specialization in something 2 karma.
Buster
Ah, that makes sense. biggrin.gif
GryMor
I'll post it when I get home (and make any corrections to the dice pools). I'm literally just starting with him, and wards give him a lot of trouble. Of course, in that game, we have another mage thats more of a generalist (he is specialized towards health spells and kicking OTHER peoples attributes up to augmented max), a technomancer, an uber face adept and a few street sams.
Cthulhudreams
I'm assuming that if you randomly massacre say, 45 children in a school protected by lone star you are going to be killed shortly afterwards by vengueful star officers, and in the mean time getting work will be hard because you are that team that massacred a whole bunch of school kids.

But anyway, this makes my point about the 'same game' test in D&D vs shadowrun. In D&D you can fight an iron golem, a pack of trolls a dragon and a hall of traps and that is a fair set of encounters. SR it;s harder.

If you have a better same game test, please feel free to break out.

In other news, arn't force 10 stunbolts likely to seriously injure any kiddies in the area?

I also think that points to the fact wards are a mandatory part of any secure institution!
GryMor
Stunbolt (Direct)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Damage: S • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1

Not stunballs, as magic doesn't miss, the adorable little tykes aren't in any danger from me.

Also, the subject of "Fry their brains if THEY injure any of the tykes" is the patrol. If I'm being careful, trying not to injure anyone I don't have to, I expect the favor to be returned and will make damned sure to prune the patrol of officers who aren't careful with the health of non combatants.

And yes, wards are good things, really really good things.... Too bad their volume is limited and the maintenance costs are rather extreme.

I'll have to think on my approach in the alternative scenario that there are wards on the school.
Critias
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
I'm assuming that if you randomly massacre say, 45 children in a school protected by lone star you are going to be killed shortly afterwards by vengueful star officers, and in the mean time getting work will be hard because you are that team that massacred a whole bunch of school kids.

I'm pretty sure folks were kidding. I know *I* was, at any rate.

I mean, there was nothing random about that massacre, and saying so is just insulting!
DTFarstar
I don't know what children's stats are, but a Force 5 Toxic Wave maxes out at 10P damage so even if they didn't resist ANY of it they would still probably be just in overflow. So, no massacre, just alot of acid burns and long term care.

Chris
Tarantula
2 body, 8 + 2/1 = 9 boxes. They would die in about 12 seconds after it hit. (6 seconds they drop to 11P, and 6 more 12P, dieing.)

Not too useful. Make it force 4, max at 8, then they're all just almost dead. And probably all knocked down to boot anyway.
DTFarstar
Sounds good, my initial impulse was 4, but it always hurts me to cast spells at even numbered force because it is inefficient. So, I bumped it up. So, 4 it is. Not to mention no character I ran would ever just injure children like this.

I mean, if you get to kill children why waste them on acid? Fire or electricity and you will already have them partially roasted. Mmmmmmmmm.......

Chris
Tarantula
Buster, you ever going to fix your mage's sheet to fit your challenge? Or have the sammies won this one by default?
Narse
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Ok, full stupid channel mage killer.

[ Spoiler ]

I actually had a character who was involved in something similar. He was a mage and was astrally projecting in a vehicle chase sequence, his meat bod was in a step van driven by one of the sams. So anyhow, he decides to call a spirit and have it use its movement power to slow down the guy their chasing. So the vehicle in front of them goes from like 75 to 15 in one IP. The GM rules that the other vehicle drivers need to make a vehicle test to stop in time. The sam glitches, so the gm has him roll a crash test which he fails. The GM rules that the van was traveling at top speed and slams into the vehicle we were just chasing. Crash rules aren't as bad for passengers in the vehicle that crashes (they get vehicle armor or something) so I end up facing something like 18P damage which I resist w/ bod 3+ imp. armor 3 + edge. So I end up with only 2 boxes of overflow. (the sam ends up taking more damage, but his replacement limbs give him more boxes, he doesn't overflow) Luckily I am still conscious as my consciousness was in the astral when I took this damage and so I direct a bound spirit to immediately use Heal to place my lungs back in my body before I die. O and the troll tank who was also in the van ended up w/ only 2P damage after he soaked like 16 of 18P. In conclusion kids: drive safely.

(/off topic)
Buster
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 19 2007, 02:05 PM)
Buster, you ever going to fix your mage's sheet to fit your challenge?  Or have the sammies won this one by default?

Hardly. I'm not wasting any more time answering any more horseshit responses like "my Con skill gives me supernatural mind control powers" and "astral perceivers are everywhere and easily spot your invisible spirit, but my illegal cyberware and weapons aren't detectable even though there are several cheap devices that actually do easily spot illegal cyberware and weapons".
Critias
Turn that frown, upside down!
Tarantula
I never asked you to answer horseshit responses. I wanted you to fix your character sheet to conform to your own design requests. You've overspent your karma.
Buster
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 20 2007, 02:31 AM)
Turn that frown, upside down!

grinbig.gif ==> biggrin.gif
Tarantula
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 20 2007, 02:31 AM)
Turn that frown, upside down!

grinbig.gif ==> biggrin.gif

So, sammies win? Yes?
Buster
QUOTE (Tarantula)
So, sammies win? Yes?

Meh, I'm sick of playing Fox And Geese with you silly gooses. biggrin.gif Glyph had a good build which you guys completely ignored, you should pick on him for a few days while I get some work done. I had forgotten that joining a magical group costs 5 karma in SR4, so it throws off my build. Once I get some free time, I'll post another munchkin mage.
Tarantula
Glyph's guys got 8, 7 and 7 respectively. My elf face got 12. Your mage got N/A for being ineligible to compete. I don't need to pick on his builds, cause frankly, they aren't all that munchkiny.
Narse
Ok, just reread the ramming rules. For the low, low price of nuyen.gif 495,000 you can purchase an Ares Dragon Cargo Helicopter. From now on known as the weapon of choice for assassinating dragons. A successful (not even full speed) ram against a character results in them having to resist 66P with half impact armor. I'm pretty sure that they die. On the odds of a successful ram: diver gets Reaction + vehicle skill + handling(-1) with of course potential bonus dice from being jumped in (+2 and threshold reduced) among other sources, pedestrian gets reaction + dodge, as if defending against a meele attack. After the ram attack, the driver can make a successful vehicle test to avoid crashing(so you can reuse your Ares dragon), base threshold 2. Oh and Btw, the metroplex gaurd doesn't normally take as much interest in an errant cargo heli as it does the magical equivalent of a main battle tank.
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