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Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Orient)
How do these sorts of discussions go on for so long, given how incredibly contrived the topic is? I can't say that "Ultimate Doom characters face off at 30 meters" is representative of any sort of significant portion of my Shadowrun experience..


That's why I said...
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...two words...

Thor Shot

...takes both Uber Mage & Uber Sammy out with no muss, no fuss and no dirty rings. grinbig.gif


...
Buster
QUOTE (Orient)
.. and (b) eyes.

No, not eyes. I've already posted a couple of times that he has Physical Mask to hide the shamanic mask effect. No mundane can ever spot his possession spirit unless they can beat the mage's physical mask illusion resistance test.
DTFarstar
I have to say Buster, that is a mighty powerful character, and if you approached me with it, I would probably kick you in the brain unless you would like to faultlessly explain to me how in HELL you survived to manifest magic with 6 1's as stats. By the way, I have no fear of this character as I can walk mental circles around him. He's a walking powerhouse with the brain of a 4 year old. I think I'm pretty ok as long as I bring him candy.

Chris
Orient
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 10 2007, 10:51 PM)
.. and (b) eyes.

No, not eyes. I've already posted a couple of times that he has Physical Mask to hide the shamanic mask effect. No mundane can ever spot his possession spirit unless they can beat the mage's physical mask illusion resistance test.

Physical mask doesn't hide auras.
DTFarstar
I mean... I know there are no hard and fast rules in shadowrun for retardation, but I would imagine a Logic 1 character as someone with an IQ of about 33-45..... which is just about the level for functional speech. So... a slow dolphin.

Chris
Orient
Also, why isn't that spirit Dikoted?
Buster
QUOTE (Orient)

Physical mask doesn't hide auras.

What in the world are you talking about? I'm not talking about auras.
Orient
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 10 2007, 10:59 PM)

Physical mask doesn't hide auras.

What in the world are you talking about? I'm not talking about auras.

Ah. I see. I should apologize - I'm half-asleep. Astral police magicians spirits.


Lonestar does employ regular astral patrols, with a frequency that increases as you move from A to AA to AAA rated neighborhoods.

Buster
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
I have to say Buster, that is a mighty powerful character, and if you approached me with it, I would probably kick you in the brain unless you would like to faultlessly explain to me how in HELL you survived to manifest magic with 6 1's as stats. By the way, I have no fear of this character as I can walk mental circles around him. He's a walking powerhouse with the brain of a 4 year old. I think I'm pretty ok as long as I bring him candy.

Chris

You don't have a problem with grenade launchers or high explosives or missiles or Thor shots or any other nonsense posted on this thread, but you do have a problem with an unfinished character with 63 BP left to spend on stats? Out of all these posts on this thread you feel the need to nitpick this one tiny item?

You must be in love with me or something. biggrin.gif
Orient
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Oct 10 2007, 10:58 PM)
I have to say Buster, that is a mighty powerful character, and if you approached me with it, I would probably kick you in the brain unless you would like to faultlessly explain to me how in HELL you survived to manifest magic with 6 1's as stats. By the way, I have no fear of this character as I can walk mental circles around him. He's a walking powerhouse with the brain of a 4 year old. I think I'm pretty ok as long as I bring him candy.

Chris

You don't have a problem with grenade launchers or high explosives or missiles or Thor shots or any other nonsense posted on this thread, but you do have a problem with an unfinished character with 63 BP left to spend on stats? Out of all these posts on this thread you feel the need to nitpick this one tiny item?

You must be in love with me or something. biggrin.gif

I think it's safe to say he was joking about the Thor Shot thing.

And in most games I've seen, it's pretty hard for people to walk around with grenade launchers, missile launchers, and miniguns, too.
Buster
QUOTE (Orient)
Lonestar does employ regular astral patrols, with a frequency that increases as you move from A to AA to AAA rated neighborhoods.

So even though the book says people with astral perception are extremely rare, now you're saying they're on every street corner? But cyberscanners and MAD scanners cost only a few hundred nuyen and they're no where to be seen which allows the cybersams packed to the teeth in rocket launchers and milspec cyberware mentioned in this thread walk around unquestioned? Hmmm, strange you didn't speak up when those things were mentioned...
DTFarstar
Sorry, you posted a full build so I immediately leeched onto it and the stats made me bleed a little from the ears. I heard 63 bps left over and assumed the stats were used up, but I see they aren't. Ok.... just get the logic and body up and I wouldn't bitch too much as long as you came from a fairly well off background to survive with S/A/R and C that low. I mean with a low charisma I see you getting beat up alot as a kid. Anyway, not as bad as I thought. Yeah, high force possession is probably the biggest deal in my opinion, there are ways around everything but this, remote spirit armies(which cost money), and low drain stunballs. I haven't had a possession mage in my game yet, I've played one, but I generally only possess at Force = Magic or less. Probably houserule that if someone plays one.

Good build though, I wonder if anyone else with post a full one?

Chris
Buster
QUOTE (Orient)
And in most games I've seen, it's pretty hard for people to walk around with grenade launchers, missile launchers, and miniguns, too.

And yet you didn't say one word when those ideas were presented (repeatedly) in this thread. Hmmm....
Orient
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 10 2007, 11:20 PM)
Lonestar does employ regular astral patrols, with a frequency that increases as you move from A to AA to AAA rated neighborhoods.

So even though the book says people with astral perception are extremely rare, now you're saying they're on every street corner? But cyberscanners and MAD scanners cost only a few hundred nuyen and they're no where to be seen which allows the cybersams packed to the teeth in rocket launchers and milspec cyberware mentioned in this thread walk around unquestioned? Hmmm, strange you didn't speak up when those things were mentioned...

Yes. Every street corner. That's precisely what I said. ohplease.gif

There are source books that detail astral response times to unusual astral things. That a force 12 Guardian spirit is 'unusual' is - I admit - a judgment call.

As for the "didn't speak up when those things were mentioned" ... didn't I JUST post that in my experience, it's hard to wander around with that stuff too? Or are you commenting on the fact that I didn't say so 6 hours ago..?

I didn't post on this thread to start an argument, Buster.
DTFarstar
Heh, grenade launchers aren't as dangerous. Also, by astral patrols I believe he meant someone in astral space wandering a huge subsection of the city at the running astral rate. Which, if I remember correctly is faster than some cars. Just running and observing in detail. I do it in my game to cut back on the sustained spell craziness, I mean they have had like 60-ish years to perfect this anti-magic security stuff, seems like that would come up with stuff like this.

Chris

Honestly, I left that stuff alone because I assumed people were joking because they were over-responding to the mages.
Buster
QUOTE (Orient)
I didn't post on this thread to start an argument, Buster.

I'm not mad, I'm just exposing your magophobic prejudice against people of Awakened heritage. That's meta-racial profiling, and that's wrong. biggrin.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Oct 10 2007, 11:00 PM)
I mean... I know there are no hard and fast rules in shadowrun for retardation, but I would imagine a Logic 1 character as someone with an IQ of about 33-45..... which is just about the level for functional speech. So... a slow dolphin.

Chris

Yeah, which should imply that player characters shouldn't be considered severely retarded without having some sort of negative quality attached. If they were intended to be viewed that way then I would expect the developers would make this clear rather than leave 1s as fairly viable attribute choices at chargen. Frankly, I wouldn't expect a logic 1 character to be any dumber than Forrest Gump.
Cain
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 10 2007, 11:20 PM)
Lonestar does employ regular astral patrols, with a frequency that increases as you move from A to AA to AAA rated neighborhoods.

So even though the book says people with astral perception are extremely rare, now you're saying they're on every street corner?

People, no. Lone Star Watcher spirits, yup.
Buster
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 10 2007, 09:29 PM)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 10 2007, 11:20 PM)
Lonestar does employ regular astral patrols, with a frequency that increases as you move from A to AA to AAA rated neighborhoods.

So even though the book says people with astral perception are extremely rare, now you're saying they're on every street corner?

People, no. Lone Star Watcher spirits, yup.

But Lone Star doesn't have cyberscanners or MAD scanners so cybersams are allowed to walk around with grenade launchers, missiles, and the best illegal cyberware money can buy? Come on guys, you've got to have some common sense. If you imagine a police state that's sitting on every street corner looking for illegal spirits, they're going to invest in the 600 nuyen for decent cyberware and weapon scanners too. Cybersams don't get any advantage over mages when it comes to legality. In fact, since there's no such thing as a cheap spirit detector, it's far more likely that the cybersam is going to get hassled by the cops a lot more often than a spirit-mage.
Odsh
I agree in general mages are more powerful than sammies when it comes down to a deathmatch in some kind of arena fight.

The biggest problem for mages are astral wards I would say: either you destroy the ward and alert security or drop all sustained spells, deactivate all foci and let go of any channelled spirit when going through the ward. Pressing through a ward unnoticed with so many spells and foci is just not possible.
So as you said Buster, your character is quite vulnerable after going through a ward, but apart from that the sammie doesn't stand a chance IMO.

By the way since you don't have masking, any astrally perceiving character will immediately notice all the active auras on your character (spells, foci and spirits). If the purpose of your physical mask spell is to fool mundane characters only, wouldn't it be more effective to simply use an invisibility spell?
Buster
That makes sense. Invisibility is the cure-all because it not only hides your spellcaster but it also hides your spellcasting allowing you to nail people with Influence on the sly. You could take Masking instead of Centering so your joined spirit is hidden from astral perceivers. That drain is a killer (literally), so you'd need to add Focused Concentration or something in the build to compensate for the loss of the Centering bonus.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
I mean... I know there are no hard and fast rules in shadowrun for retardation, but I would imagine a Logic 1 character as someone with an IQ of about 33-45..... which is just about the level for functional speech. So... a slow dolphin.

Chris

...meet KK the PC (#23)
noonesshowmonkey
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Oct 10 2007, 08:58 AM)
The last time I ran we faced a mage.  Our mage mind-controlled the opposing Street Samurai and had him hack the opposing mage down in a single stroke from a katana...  A strength 12 cyberarm with 5 skill and Edge can have that effect.

So...  uh...

mage > street samurai < mage

or rather mind control = busted < katana > mage < ares predator to the noggin.

Whatever.  Just shoot the fraggin mage in the head and sling some mojo at the Street Samurai.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway

I think you got your greater-than and less-than symbols mixed up.

Remember, the alligator always eats the bigger one.

1<2<3

3>2>1

hehe yeah...

But remember, in the first listing of "mage > street samurai < mage" it was our mage mind controlling the street samurai... to kill another mage... So really, the street samurai was totally being pwnt by a mage to pwn another mage. I was not entirely sure how to accurately represent that with the less-than greater-than symbols.

mage = mind control > street samurai = katana > mage = hacked to death < street samurai < mind control = mage.

yessssssss...

And in closing - the mage uses his brainmeats to cast spellz. Shoot him in the brainmeats.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway
Fortune
QUOTE (Buster)
You could take Masking instead of Centering so your joined spirit is hidden from astral perceivers.

Technically, that would take Extended Masking to hide or disguise a Spirit, wouldn't it?
Kyrn
Extended Masking only hides foci and spells, not spirits. There is a possibility that vanilla Masking may hide a possessing spirit, as one of the options includes looking "mundane", but there are strong arguments for and against this.

And watchers are cheap. While I don't think Mr. 12 would be hassled while walking around an A neighborhood (if it was only an occasional thing), heading into any AAA area would probably result in some careful scrutiny by patrolling watchers or even projecting pig-mages. And those boys don't play nice, what with all the ritual magic they enjoy.

As a sidenote, anyone "walking around" a AAA area with anything illegal can get into trouble. Beat cops, static sensors in lamp posts and public data terminals, watchers patrolling at a bazillion miles an hour, drones with too-expensive-for-anybody-but-a-major-corporation-to-afford sensor packages, you name the character type and they had sure as shit be on their toes in AAA neighborhoods.

Heh. I said package.
DTFarstar
The only time my mage has walked into a AAA zone he dropped all spells and possessions, left his foci at home, wore corp clothes, and sported a brand new shiny Rating 6 SIN related to being employed at the area in question and a hacker he paid had almost gotten himself killed to implant that data in the system. He was still tweaking on the inside the whole time.

Chris
MadDogMaddux
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Oct 10 2007, 11:00 PM)
I mean... I know there are no hard and fast rules in shadowrun for retardation, but I would imagine a Logic 1 character as someone with an IQ of about 33-45..... which is just about the level for functional speech. So... a slow dolphin.

Chris

Yeah, which should imply that player characters shouldn't be considered severely retarded without having some sort of negative quality attached. If they were intended to be viewed that way then I would expect the developers would make this clear rather than leave 1s as fairly viable attribute choices at chargen. Frankly, I wouldn't expect a logic 1 character to be any dumber than Forrest Gump.

This opens up the can of worms that is one of my primary beefs in roleplaying.

Too many people that I know use mental stats as dump stats, but then roleplay as if it weren't an issue.

Someone with a 1 Logic should pretty much need to be told what to do - possibly even with regards to their own skills - and they should be prone to doing things poorly and even to blunders simply on account of their poor mental capacity. SR4 denotes 2 as being an underdeveloped stat, and I can't remember what it says about 1, but it's gotta be amazinglly bad.

It goes both ways tho - I once played with a guy who had really high charisma, but played with no sense of ettiquete or people skills. Only reason he had the high Charisma was for the abilities it granted his character (DnD Paladin).

I realize it's a whole other thread - but for goodness sakes, please roleplay your stats!!!!

Buster's mage is definitely powerful, but if the Attribute stats stay as they are, he pretty much needs to be told what to do at any turn, is frail as all getout (sickly?), and when not posessed pretty doggone sluggish too. He'd need to be role played with some serious ailments or something.

Granted, I realize there's 63 BP left to offset some of that - but I really think that a 1 Attribute should impact the way the character is played just as much (if not more?) as any really high attributes.



So I guess what I'm saying is that he's powerful, sure - but has POTENTIAL to be annoying to RP.
GryMor
I think your exaggerating the effects of a 1 stat. A 1 in a stat is still sufficient, with training, to be functional at any skill. I believe, the level of incompetence you are talking about, is covered by the 20pnt flaws that cripple you in a particular skill area AND, on top of that, having a 1 stat.

A 1 Logic may (on an IQ test that separates logic from intuition, charisma and willpower, which is likely hard), indicate 2 standard deviations below normal, which, is a 70 IQ.
Kyoto Kid
...The Short One (yeah, yeah #25) had a 1 Logic (raised it to 2 with Karma), but also a 4 Intuition. Intuition is said to be the attribute that mostly applies to surviving in the shadows. Basically, it is common sense or to translate (loosely might I add) to that "other" game's, Wisdom attribute. Yes KK has to think hard about some things most other characters take for granted like remembering the Johnson's comm code or dealing with complex math beyond basic 2 + 2 arithmetic. But, it doesn't preclude her from effectively swinging her Katana, shooting her six-guns, or noticing that shady fellow standing partially behind the dumpster.

Yeah she won't solve the Unified Field Theory but she can tell you how to save your butt in a firefight

..and BTW, I didn't specifically choose Logic to be her dump Attribute, It is part of the character's backstory. grinbig.gif

[edit]

oh and yes, I do player her as being "slow".
Whipstitch
QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Oct 11 2007, 11:53 AM)
This opens up the can of worms that is one of my primary beefs in roleplaying.

Too many people that I know use mental stats as dump stats, but then roleplay as if it weren't an issue.

Someone with a 1 Logic should pretty much need to be told what to do - possibly even with regards to their own skills - and they should be prone to doing things poorly and even to blunders simply on account of their poor mental capacity. SR4 denotes 2 as being an underdeveloped stat, and I can't remember what it says about 1, but it's gotta be amazinglly bad.

A score of 1 is classified as weak. That's certainly not a good thing, but it's also most likely a cut above amazingly bad. As for the rest of it, I suspect that if the RAW and RPGs in general intended to turn over player autonomy to outside sources due to low mental attributes, I think that'd get mentioned somewhere. It's certainly bad form to RP as if you're perfectly fine mentally if your character is severely retarded, but that's only an issue if you believe that shadowrun PCs should ever be interpreted as severely retarded to begin with. Mechanically, the difference between a logic 1 and a logic 5 guy nine times out of ten is that the logic 1 guy is forgetful and truly hopeless without an instruction manual, tools and basic training while mr. logic 5 has a decent chance to squeeze out a single hit when dealing with complex problems and incomplete information. The troll with 1 charisma can often get dressed in the morning and go out to buy a cup of coffee without terrifying people that are neutral to trolls; the problem comes in when he tries to present himself to people as anything other than what he is, a stereotypical ugly trog. In that situation, he doesn't have a chance in hell. Same thing with the other attributes; a guy with 1 strength is certainly a weakling, but he doesn't exactly have muscular dystrophy either; he can actually climb a chainlink fence given a few turns (could easily glitch though) and should be able to climb a ladder under normal circumstances (since the test is effectively threshold 0). I agree that it's irritating if someone creates a logic 1 character and then plays himself as if he were the second coming of Stephen Hawking, but I also feel it's damaging to the game when people act as if low agility attribute has to played as well, the second coming of Stephen Hawking. wobble.gif
Spike
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the case of Bursters uber-possession mage... especially given that apparently the mage LIVES possessed, technically he isn't playing the mage at all, but the force 12 possessing spirit?


I understand that possession traditions are rather like the Loa of Voodoo, and the mount isn't hanging out with their buds having a beer when being ridden, they are doing freaky spirit stuff that makes us mere mortals wince (eating glass, for example).


I may need to read up on possession traditions a bit, but I imagine that anyone pulling a stunt like this in a game I was running would be unable to run regularly, being completely unreliable when possessed....which happens to be ALL THE TIME.


Of course there could be a disconnect between the intent (model things like Loa) and the application, in which case I'm talking out my ass again.
darthmord
Well, Channelling lets you have direct control over the spirit Possessing you. So an unreliable spirit wouldn't necessarily be a problem.
Spike
QUOTE (darthmord)
Well, Channelling lets you have direct control over the spirit Possessing you. So an unreliable spirit wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

I'll have to read up on Streetmagic at some point in the near-ish future but that could be interpreted as 'possessed mage whispers into the ear of possessing spirit and spirit does X', not 'possessed mage still controls his body' very easily.

So, yes, while the possessed mage can get to the meet, and generally perform runner activities via remote control, any time he doesn't specifically tell the possessing spirit what to do, it should be off doing its own thing.

I think that mages might be a bit more interesting to play (GM for...) if we stopped treating spirits (particularly uber force spirits) as guns and more like powerful, reasonably freindly, contacts. You know, NPCs. Loyal and obedient NPCs, sure.


Hell, find the player that most disagrees with the Mage and let him control the spirit for you as an additional character. Could be bad, but if he 'gets it' it could work out pretty good. ESPECIALLY for the channelling possession mage of doom.

"No, I'd have my body stand over by the door."

"Well, you have to tell Hal that, he's the one that moved you by the strange blinky thing with the odd astral signature (mana bomb of plot development). Since you didn't do that when you entered the room Hal gets to move where he likes."

Double bonus points if the mage has to roll astral initiative to give his orders in time vs the 'uber reflex posssession spirit of doom' and can't tell Hal what he wants his character to do until after Hal has had a chance to use his possibly higher init value.

Heck, Hal could even be a player who ONLY plays the various PC freindly spirits in the game, if you can find a player who is more interested in being a 'cast of a thousand NPCs' than a regular player or GM.

Buster
QUOTE (Spike)
QUOTE (darthmord @ Oct 11 2007, 10:46 AM)
Well, Channelling lets you have direct control over the spirit Possessing you. So an unreliable spirit wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

I'll have to read up on Streetmagic at some point in the near-ish future but that could be interpreted as 'possessed mage whispers into the ear of possessing spirit and spirit does X', not 'possessed mage still controls his body' very easily.

So, yes, while the possessed mage can get to the meet, and generally perform runner activities via remote control, any time he doesn't specifically tell the possessing spirit what to do, it should be off doing its own thing.

I think that mages might be a bit more interesting to play (GM for...) if we stopped treating spirits (particularly uber force spirits) as guns and more like powerful, reasonably freindly, contacts. You know, NPCs. Loyal and obedient NPCs, sure.


Hell, find the player that most disagrees with the Mage and let him control the spirit for you as an additional character. Could be bad, but if he 'gets it' it could work out pretty good. ESPECIALLY for the channelling possession mage of doom.

"No, I'd have my body stand over by the door."

"Well, you have to tell Hal that, he's the one that moved you by the strange blinky thing with the odd astral signature (mana bomb of plot development). Since you didn't do that when you entered the room Hal gets to move where he likes."

Double bonus points if the mage has to roll astral initiative to give his orders in time vs the 'uber reflex posssession spirit of doom' and can't tell Hal what he wants his character to do until after Hal has had a chance to use his possibly higher init value.

Heck, Hal could even be a player who ONLY plays the various PC freindly spirits in the game, if you can find a player who is more interested in being a 'cast of a thousand NPCs' than a regular player or GM.

No, darthmord is correct. What you describe is regular possession (not super unleaded Channeling possession). Channeling fully merges the mage with the spirit giving him direct control of his body again.
DTFarstar
Charisma and Willpower are easy to articulate, really Intuition and Logic are too, but if you really want a decent gauge of someone's "IQ" in game, then add Int+Log+Will and divide by 3, multiply by about 35. Not perfect, but relatively accurate. Charisma has very little to do with IQ tests. Personality batteries on the other hand.... Just depends on whether you want to know if they are crazy, smart or both. MMPI-2 is good for crazy, and does have intelligence ramifications usually on the extreme high and low end, WISC on the other hand is child IQ and has nothing to do with charisma provided you will in fact answer the administrator.


Anyway.... sorry.... Psych Major.

Chris
Spike
QUOTE (Buster)

No, darthmord is correct. What you describe is regular possession (not super unleaded Channeling possession). Channeling fully merges the mage with the spirit giving him direct control of his body again.

This is the disadvantage of posting at work and not having read even remotely recently the appropriate books.

Channelling is a metamagic, yes? So it wouldn't be available at character creation in a standard game. And physical Mask was important so your LoaMage wouldn't walk around looking like the hugely magical threat he actually is, so 'two initiations' if I remember right?

That's a fair amount of time for me, the GM to reread what channeling actually does, never mind watching this poor bastard actually die several times (assuming that the player simply recycles his character verbatim, as I have seen players do...) trying to summon this monstrosity. Again, I assume that a force 12 spirit has some sort of motivation/raison d'etre (sp? I don't do french...) other than 'be LoaMage', even in the case of channeling. The meta-game/fluffiness of channeling seems disconnected severely from the obviously biased view I get from this thread.

On the other hand I just got a chuckle from thinking how the LoaMage would probably describe what he does when he summons the beast for the first time.

"I summon the spirit of Me!"



It does seem, here and dealing with sprites, that the real problem comes from the lazy shortcut (and it is that...) of only giving spirits/sprites one 'does everything' rating. Yes, it speeds games up, but when put into certain players hands (posters here, fer ex) the 'one stat to rule them all' proves horribly broken. If ya put all yer baskets in one egg, then all a crafty theif need do is steal that one egg, then he gots all yer baskets. And yer egg as a bonus prize.
Fortune
QUOTE (Spike)
And physical Mask was important so your LoaMage wouldn't walk around looking like the hugely magical threat he actually is, so 'two initiations' if I remember right?

Two initiations was right, but technically Physical Mask is a Spell.
Cain
QUOTE
But Lone Star doesn't have cyberscanners or MAD scanners so cybersams are allowed to walk around with grenade launchers, missiles, and the best illegal cyberware money can buy? Come on guys, you've got to have some common sense. If you imagine a police state that's sitting on every street corner looking for illegal spirits, they're going to invest in the 600 nuyen for decent cyberware and weapon scanners too.

Cost of Watcher Spirits: 0

Cost of Cyber Scanners and MADs: Several hundred each.

I know what I'd invest in, if I were Lone Star. If watchers are free, why not load up on them?
kzt
QUOTE (Cain)
I know what I'd invest in, if I were Lone Star. If watchers are free, why not load up on them?

They are not free. Because you have to pay a mage any way you get them. And it's not going to be a few hundred per, it's a lot more.
Fortune
You're paying the Mages anyway. A routine rotating Summoning schedule is just part of their contract.
Hartbaine
This is kind of pointless. You can have the most bad ass Sammie, Mage, Hacker, Super Nanny in all of Shadowrun and ya know what?

It doesn't mean shit if you are an idiot. Who would win? Depends on which player controlling them was the most crafty, intelligent, and let's not forget lucky.

This logic is not to be disputed, we've all seen it a million times at a million tables across the globe.

An archtype is only as good as the player behind it.
Buster
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 11 2007, 07:19 PM)
QUOTE
But Lone Star doesn't have cyberscanners or MAD scanners so cybersams are allowed to walk around with grenade launchers, missiles, and the best illegal cyberware money can buy? Come on guys, you've got to have some common sense. If you imagine a police state that's sitting on every street corner looking for illegal spirits, they're going to invest in the 600 nuyen for decent cyberware and weapon scanners too.

Cost of Watcher Spirits: 0

Cost of Cyber Scanners and MADs: Several hundred each.

I know what I'd invest in, if I were Lone Star. If watchers are free, why not load up on them?

The mages who are needed to conjure them aren't free. In fact you have to keep paying their very high salary month after month. Scanners are a one time investment that's amortized over time with an extremely short ROI. I'm faxing you the spreadsheets so we can go over quarterly cash flow statements. biggrin.gif
Adarael
Buster:

In answer to the "What about MAD Scanners and Cyberware Scanners everywhere?" post... I do actually run games so that cyberware scanners are all over the damn place. But that's just me.

As to the street sam...

I keep meaning to work out a street sam, but I keep being too tired. The basic idea was to make a really stealthy guy with little armor, a stealth suit, and lots of smoke grenades to interrupt spell casting and enable stealth rolls, while the sam sees through with a massive amount of headware and such.

I was gonna basically suggest using drones, targeting as "Hail of tazers and grenade-based DMSO cocktails" to bypass Immunity to Normal weapons.

I'm too lazy to work out the stats on the guy, though.

(I'm a big believer in making people make perception tests to see the enemy. And after getting halfway through chargen with the guy, no, he wouldn't have been any more legal walking down the street than mr. mage.)

Sorry. I'll try and make something cheesy when less tired.
Cain
QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 11 2007, 06:59 PM)
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 11 2007, 07:19 PM)
QUOTE
But Lone Star doesn't have cyberscanners or MAD scanners so cybersams are allowed to walk around with grenade launchers, missiles, and the best illegal cyberware money can buy? Come on guys, you've got to have some common sense. If you imagine a police state that's sitting on every street corner looking for illegal spirits, they're going to invest in the 600 nuyen for decent cyberware and weapon scanners too.

Cost of Watcher Spirits: 0

Cost of Cyber Scanners and MADs: Several hundred each.

I know what I'd invest in, if I were Lone Star. If watchers are free, why not load up on them?

The mages who are needed to conjure them aren't free. In fact you have to keep paying their very high salary month after month. Scanners are a one time investment that's amortized over time with an extremely short ROI. I'm faxing you the spreadsheets so we can go over quarterly cash flow statements. biggrin.gif

As Fportune pinted out, you're paying the mages anyway. Watchers cost nothing in the way of summoning materials, and are even more trivial to oak the drain on than the Bpund spirits you'll also have them summon.

So, the equasion remains.

Effective cost of Watcher Spirits: 0

Cost of MADs and CYberscanners at chokepoints: Several hundred.

Look on mage's face when he discovers he's not uber: Priceless. cool.gif
Buster
QUOTE (Cain)

As Fportune pinted out, you're paying the mages anyway. Watchers cost nothing in the way of summoning materials, and are even more trivial to oak the drain on than the Bpund spirits you'll also have them summon.

So, the equasion remains.

Effective cost of Watcher Spirits: 0

Cost of MADs and CYberscanners at chokepoints: Several hundred.

Look on mage's face when he discovers he's not uber: Priceless. cool.gif

I'm not going to spend the night explaining simple business concepts to you. You REALLY should gain some basic business skills though, there are lots of articles on the internet for free (stay away from the infomercials though, they prey on people just like you).
Fortune
I'm not sure what part of 'the Mages are already on salary for all kinds of purposes' you are not getting. Besides, you also have the cost of installation and maintenance of all the electronic toys to factor in.
Buster
You college kids are adorable! biggrin.gif

But seriously, Business For Dummies is an awesome book, it sounds like I'm being a smartass, but it really is a nice primer. Rich Dad Poor Dad is also a good book on basic financial skills.
Spike
Buster: Please, by all means explain this thing of yours. Acting smug and claiming to know something you can't be arsed to explain doesn't win you any cred with anyone.

Me may be dunce, but me understands employing salaried workers to do simple saleried taskings in no way costs extra moneys.

Me has salary-type job. Me constantly do things that cost me nothing but moment of time. Cost bossmans nothings. Earns me nothings.

Emptying my own trash can is no different than a trained mage summoning a watcher spirit. And in the first case, my employer saves a tiny smidgen of money on paying that wage earning janitor to empty it for me at the end of the day.




They probably take about the same amount of time and effort, and honestly? About the same amount of training.*




*I say this having had to train adults to take out the god damn trash properly. You know 'the used trash bag goes into the big green can outside. A new trash bag goes into the little grey can under the desk.' said very slowly several times a day until it sticks.
kzt
A mage can only have ONE non-bound spirit, which as to be re-summoned at dawn and dusk. He can only have his CHA in bound spirits. Bound spirits cost $500 to bind a watcher and it will use a service to have it watch a location for dusk/dawn or dawn/dusk. So it's going to cost $500 per 3 days/watcher. If a mage has 5 bound watchers he isn't going to be a lot of help when they have a huge magical attack and he needs a slew of combat spirits to help out a team in trouble. If he can only use bound spirits for services he's going to spend a lot of time and money binding spirits instead of just summoning one that he needs, but he can't because he's get that "free" watcher.

So, can you explain again how this is free?
Spike
Kzt: How much territory can one watcher watch if a watcher could watch watches?

Or more seriously: How many watchers are needed to cover a given city? Say, Seattle, circa 2070. Now, remove the barrens from the equation. Then remove any 'non-A' level areas from regular 'patrolling'. Then remove corporate enclaves with their own security teams, instead of lonestar contracts.

How many mages do you have on shift? Each one summons a watcher at the start of his shift and sends it out to look for big ass signatures in a given area.

If you need more, what's the the real loss of a single bound spirit 'slot' per mage? Still cheaper than hundreds of MAD's.

After a few weeks on the job the average wagemage probably summons his first watcher spirit of the day before he even gets to the office, right along side his morning cup of soykaff. I wouldn't be surprised if mages 'on retainer' are supposed to put up a daily watcher spirit as part of their contract on 'good faith' basises. If that retainer mage wants to save 'time' by having it bound, that's his business....

Mages are rare, but they aren't that rare. And if they are, then possession trad initiates with force 12's are even rarer, and lonestar has less priority to preemptively stop them... sort of like trying to catch smuggled nukes during the cold war. Possible, but not really something to lose sleep over. With the rise in people who can do such things, comes the increase in effort trying to prevent it.
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