OK: Points to ponder:
It's possible to transfer objects to the astral. Harlequin and the like know how, yes?
Transfer a nuke to the astral plane, or make one dual natured. Maybe even send one over to the horror metaplane?

Make a barrier on the metaplanes to stop the horrors. Or cut away some stuff to make the varrier wider. If it's possible to make a bridge then why is it not possible to mine away one of the edges?

In 3000 years time it may be possible to make people magically active using gene-therapy and the like. It may even be possible to implant cyber/bioware that has no affect on magic, and the sort of effects possible could be staggering (nanoware that actually provides the regeneration-critter-power-effects)

Hopefully some will get through early. It'd be nice to investigate the damage shift power. It's probably possible to shield against it.

If it's possible to kill a horror then in 3000 years time we'll have the technology to do it. Orbital railguns can just snipe any physical ones.

The big ones would be tackled by hoards of full-mage regenerating ninja adepts immune to the horror's powers and wielding man-portable machine-railgun weapon-foci.

[edit]Also consider sustaining-focus(reinforce) railgun slugs. They are astrally present and more durable than normal railgun slugs.[/edit]

Kagetenshi, i like your spoiler. i suppose i should learn to post them, as it seems spoiler material isn't limited to material not yet out? i'm new maybe there is a guide for what is considered spoiler material in the faq. oh well, my only question there is does the magic level really drop when icewing shows up to take his place?

and thanks for the welcome, kevyn668 it is nice to find these forums.

anyone who wants the info on the harlequin/vestrial conversation, i believe it is posted on ancient history's site.

herald, as an over the top earthdawn fanatic, i must commend you on your crossover knowledge. i believe your 4th world mastery surpasses my own.

just to give some people an idea of the power of the horrors - which i must say people just aren't getting, maybe they just can't stretch that far - the powerful ones are likely approaching or surpassing 50 in natural attribute scores.

In shadowrun you are.

I've always thought that as soon as Artificer enters the sixth world it will seize control of most of metahumanity's technology and use it against them, starting with the matrix in it's entirity and everything connected to it.

Who's to say that the unpresidented technological advances during the final 100 years before the awakening and the 50 years since, were not brought about by agents of the Horrors. After all most of the advances have been brought about by wars. War and suffering are the very things that Horrors feed off. Hitler was probably their agent.

Wraiths and Nomads are two of the most feared critters in the sixth world, but although both appear to be agents or constucts of the Horrors, they are both weaker than any true Horror.

Also consider that the insect spirits, even the (formerly) mighty Universal Brotherhood, are absolutely terrified of the coming of the Horrors. Aztechnology the main earthly agents of the Horrors were totally unconcerned about the UB, except to cleanse their own organization of UB infiltration.

Aztechnology / Darke's plans have been been foiled so far, but as someone (I can't remember who) has pointed out elsewhere on these boards, the mass scale toxification of large areas of Aztlan by Aztech forces in the civil war hints that they may still be trying to create a bridge, and not just a 'spike' this time.

There was very little technology in the fourth world, but Artificer brought advanced technology with it from the metaplanes. Personally I think Artificer and it's ilk have been waiting for the sixth world for a very long time...

W00T! Nukes specifically designed to fuck up spirits! /me likes!

So, either we nuke 'em with those (if they don't like Mana Warps), or we just hide underground for a while until they go off in search of space aliens to play with (if they do like Mana Warps).

Nope. At least, no one has mentioned them flying off into space before. I've got the impression that most people think they wouldn't like space at all.

The Scourge II wouldn't last anywhere near as long as the first one did if they could just go off and find themselves a pacifistic alien empire that hasn't ran into magic yet.

I meant the bit about hiding underground.

True. But it wouldn't really feel the same if metahumanity only had to hide for a few months, tops, before they realize that there has to be some other civilizations out there that isn't prepared.

Or maybe Horrors attack innumerable space civilizations at the same time! And if we beat them back here, it only means that the hundreds of thousands of other Horror Hordes come zooming in from all over the universe to kill us! That'd be even cooler!

Damn, you're replying/editting faster than me.

Well, not very fast... And I'll be leaving soon to eat some ham and Be Merry. (Yeah, right...)

Couldn't they just pop out onto this plane of existence in some other place? Why do they have to bother us?

whoa, lets go back to that Astral Nuke Idea. I'll have to add that to my magical research list.

Now we have an answer to the "Some Horrors will just go Astral..."

One by one, humanity is limiting the options of the Scourge.

GO HUMANS!!

(They came to our planet, destroied our cities, killed millions...On December 11 5063, they find out they messed w/ the wrong species...[cue Blur, Song2])

Mebbe, the metaplanes are also tied to other mansphere/gaiasphere....?

Could someone please clue me in on who "Verjigorm" and "Artificer" are, and what they're like?

Also, someone said something about a nuke that fucks up spirits. How about a nuke filled with orichalcum nails: astral pipe bomb.

You mean there are aliens in the canon SR universe?

Verjigorm is the Uber-Horror, the Hunter of Great Dragons. Yeah, you heard me. This is the Horror that gets Ghostwalker pissing in his scales at night. Also, he may well have created all the rest of 'em. He does have a fondness for capturing dragons and dragon eggs, than transforming them into hideous horror-esque creatures.

Artificer was a powerful elemental spirit summoned by a number of dragons (yep: draconic ritual magic. Big shit.) from the domain of Metal (reached through the Elemental Plane of Earth) to combat the Horrors during a previous Scourge (Age of Dragons). Unfortunately, it was corrupted, and now goes around transforming locales into deady traps so it can feed off the sufferring of those who fall in said deadly traps. Apparently, it can only physically manifest at a rather high point in the mana cycle...during the post-Scourge ED timeframe, it's constrained to the astral.

We've already gone over Nuclear Weapon Foci and the like, go check the threads for Winternight and the original Threats.

Yes, toturi, there are aliens. Or were. At least, I assume anything with an endoskeleton capable of building a pyramid on Mars to have been an alien. It might have been something native to earth. Who knows?

1) I don't know the exact details, although they might have used blood magic, as there are rules for that and conjuring in ED.

2) heh. Really, really high.

3) Another thing about Verjigorm: he once captured a dragon, forced it to rip off it's own scales and talons, dip the talons in it's one blood for ink, and then write down the history of the horrors on the scales. One bad-ass mofo, ja.

He also rebuilds dragons for the fun of it.

Dragon magic can "reshape the world," dragon magic does exacly drek to Horrors. Artificer was originally a very high power metal elemental, it was changed. I don't remember if there is a record of which Horror changed it.

I have my PC's running around the world right now, trying to find it (The Book of Scales, that is) before someone else does.

It has been theorised that in 50 years time (from now) we will have computers as powerful as the human brain on our desks. Now obviously in the SR timeline we had Deus f**king up the programme, but he did as I recall, advance technology considerably. The key is to get computers to do it humanely (get them to simulate it or perform experiments on dumb meat like a cloned arm which we know is possible).

Then-again; Research for the 'greater good' often has a harsh toll. IIRC Scientists who performed experiments during WWII on jewish prisoners were given medals or honors for the scientific breakthroughs they made. Not that I condone any of the actions of Deus or the 'doctors' in the concentration camps.

Ethics are a barrier to scientific progress, it's true.

~J

According to ancients Site, the Nuke that squashed the Big Bugs in Chicago only demolished their flesh forms, and sent their spirit forms into hibernation, only to awake when mana activity was heightened or magic was used. Thinking along those lines I think Bug City will rise from the dead before the Horrors come, and if we nuke the snot out of the horrors, they'll pass out for a short while, only to wake back up in the peak of the mana curve.

Just a thought, I'm no Maginuclear Scientist or anything.

Hi I'm back for a little while, I've dug out my copy of Bug City, and that was where the shadowtalk about the nuke is.

It seems that I did get some facts wrong, it appears to have been a standard nuke, although the radiation pattern is concidered unusual for the yield.

I've mentioned several times that the Cermak Blast Mana Warp is 7, not 10. That figure also appears in MitS.

Replacing "is obviously not" with "will obviously not be" makes it look a bit more sensible. -> Sleep now, since I clearly cannot think coherently anymore. Bah, and it's only 4:00 AM.

Articafter is a metal elemental right so would it be possible for your average player to summon a low force metal elemental? if so how are they different from any other elementals?

Is there any elemental opposing Metal? If not, icky, if so you just send a few hundred F1 opposing elementals into combat with it.

~J

To conjure a metal elemental first requires knowing how to find the metaplane of metal (not neccessarily going there, just knowing how to find it). Any hermetic initiate with the proper curiosity should be able to ask at the Citadel of Earth how to alter the ritual to summon metal.

This assumes that the GM is willing to take the effort to establish (put in numbers) these less known elemental types.

Metals conduct electricity and mony can corrode, so air elementals would still be valid opposites (lightning and oxygen as weapons of choice). The metal elemental effect is a form of iron, so it is reasonable to expect low force metal elementals to be ferrous in nature.

So you just have a bunch of Air Elementals cancel themselves out with Artificer until he's Force 2 or 3 and then finish him off. Or just continue with the Airs until the deed is done.
That seems too easy. What defenses would he have against that?

~J

someone mentioned the idea of mana warps in earthdawn or something. i guess the closest thing would be the waste, west of jeris. i'd have to get my books back out and read up on it, so maybe ancient or the herald might know more about it. as i recall though the word warped was used to describe astral space and it was littered with nasty horrors.

as far as everyone thinking of assaulting them with massive amounts of destruction, we need to remember that the person flipping the switch or pressing the button had better have an uber-godly ability to resist the horrors' mental and astral assaults. i'll discard the automated triggering on behalf of artificer's involvement.

edit: it was also rumored that if verjigorm were defeated, the world would end. legend, so take it with a grain of salt, but dragons also claim that he created the world.