I'd bet its close enough...

Ahhh, you seem to have forgotten satellites. And undercover operatives. And Watcher Spirit Surviellence. And Ryan Mercury...And the NSA and all of the other national organizations that would be looking for "magical disturbances". Like the sacrifice of thousands....Or by that time "Astral Radar" that detects disturbances

Ah, but what do you do if the NSA and all those national organizatons have been corrupted?

"No sir, there wasn't a major astral disturbance detected by the satelitte. It was just a glitch."

Riiiight.

Because its that easy to Corrupt a Government Agency. No problem. A few thousand government employes. Piece of cake....

All it initially takes is one to become corrupted. From there it spreads like wildfire.

Also, how many corporations do you think will become corrupted because they were following thier greed instead of thier heads? How many thousands would become horror marked? The SR world has a lot of weak points in it and all of them are easily taken advantage of. Not to mention, who knows how many smaller horrors are on our side of the chasm right now. If a major horror was awake and influencing Aztlan, how many others might be around quietly marking away already?

And as the ProHorrors have already confirmed, just becaused you're Marked doesn't mean you're a pawn.

The elves probably have a plan to fight this, even those cast offs in Tarrislar (that place in Puyallup, its talked about in the Harlequin)

You're right, they probably do have a plan to fight it. It's called hiding the next scourge until it's over. That's why Na Nog aleady has a veil around it. It's the beginning of a true element barrier. Requiring artisitic talent also helps. A marked person tends to loose artistic ability.

While being marked doesn't neccissarily mean you're a pawn, it does mean the door is open. All it takes is for the horror to distort a marked persons reality one time to make things worse for you. This is the insidious, behind-the-scenes level that the horrors will start with. They will also have people like Mr. Darke looking to gain allies to thier side.

To make matters worse, for all humanitis ability to wage war, they also have the ability to be stupid. A person will believe a lie if it's convincing enough to them. There are many a blind sheep that will willingly be lead to the slaughter and not realize it until its too late. When the scourge comes, an all out war will not win. The planet will be woefully behind on the numbers game, and even more so when marked victims sabatoge your plans.

Might want to re-formulate that. Being greedy doesn't mean you can't be smart. In fact, in the case of megacorps, I should think greed and smartness go together extremely well. Even a 100% proof utilitarian economist will not consider it a good thing if you can rake in doubled income tomorrow, but the day after that you're dead.

And I bet the Horrors completely lack this ability. Every last one has more intuitive and logical brain muscle than any human being. Right?

Good points, all.

But...if there are sabatoures in our camps, there are also sabatoures in Thier camp as well. So it comes down to a question of desire. Humans WANT to live. They aren't thinking "cool, torment the pleebes for a few thousand years before we're cast back into oblivion." They're thinking "Lets Rock." There is no choice for metahumanity. Its kill or be killed.

The late Great Big D was convinced metahumanity had a chance. But whats a 7000 year old Great Dragon's opinion got to do with it?

Or sell out. Those who willingly and knowingly aided Horrors in the 4th age were usually marked, bound and then allowed to live in some semblance of life. For some, that was better than "be killed" and they didn't like the probability of "kill."

Corporations in real life have proven many times that profits are often weighed first. Not always, but there are always those that did. If another Mr. Darke comes along and offers them increased wealth and power... do you really think the greedy CEO's are going to turn it down? Especially when Darke lies to them and paints them a pretty picture. They of course won't know it's a lie until it's too late. I'm sure some will think they will be able to control the situation when the time comes. But, the damage is already done and the horrors would have gained another advantage.

Bingo

This is the bit I'm having trouble with. Corp execs aren't stupid. They are, on average, pretty darn smart, and brilliant strategists. That's why they are in those positions. And they should have the resources to do their own bit of research on the Horrors.

Unless the CEO is smart enough to realize that the world won't end if he doesn't go along w/ the plan.

But what CEO of a Major Multinational Corporation is that smart?

Yes, yes...I'm sure that Lofyr would have no problem w/ abandoning his corporate empire to hide in a hole for 3000 years. There certainly wouldn't be a supply of advanced tech fighters in this age...

Oooohhh,

Aww fuck. Well, that sure explains why I'm trying to argue that the Horrors won't be a problem.

Except that:
A You have yet to establish how a horror mark under such conditions will ever come about. Since a test for horror corruption is readily available and they'll be watching for this it's going to be quite unlikely that they can possibly perform such an action, or even if they can, maintain the marked people in position.

B 10,000 Horrors for each human? I can handle those odds. FAB-III clouds means virtually every astral form and dual-natured horror is already dead. Before the first shots are fired perhaps 2/3rds of all horrors have died, taking the odds down to about 3,300 to one. And this, we can manage.

Now let's take a single rigger who's armed with the finest milspec gear available. He carries a rating 12 VCD and 9 high-end aerial drones. This means each drone has around body 4 and can thus carry 4 missile/rocket launchers. Each of those can mount 300KG of missiles, which amounts to 92 anti-vehicular missiles per launcher. This means each Drone, before you take it's other weaponry into account, has the potential to kill 368 Horrors. He's got 9 drones like this available so he's perfectly capable of killing 3312 horrors before his missiles run out, and that's not taking into account the 9 drone's turreted assault cannons.

What's that you say? The horrors will suddenly manifest around him and overwhelm him with their numbers? Not likely. With ravenous FAB-III clouds everywhere the Astral plane will have turned into Horror hell. Any effort to travel astrally, perceive astrally, or use any horror power that causes you to be dual natured has about the same odds of survival as slapping Verjigorm in the face and calling him a wimp. They'll have to travel overland just like everybody else, or else lose most of their remaining number to the clouds.

An AV missile does 16D damage, which means it'll take a miracle even for something with body in the double digits to manage to scale things down once. Furthermore each vehicle has a robotic brain 5, sharpshooter autosoft 5, and a maxed out adaptation pool (Prime Directive: "Kill Horrors.") This means they'll be rolling 15 die on every single attack, making hits every time a virtual certainty. And if a horror does manage to stage things down to Serious, there's the turreted assault cannons. . .

And if the Horrors want to actually hurt the Rigger, well the other 3 slots on his deck are filled with Main Battle Tanks under his command, with similar robotic brains and autosofts, and armed with Naval-Damage Weaponry and armor in the double digits that would hold off a dragon's claws.

And keep in mind this was just one Rigger, with only the kind of gear available in 2060, not 3000 or even 50 years from now in the SR universe. The horrors are used to taking out a dozen humans each before breakfast. When one guy kills 300 of their front-line shock troopers in a few seconds without them inflicting so much as a light wound, do you really think the rest are going to just keep on charging into the teeth of death? Or will their morale crumble to dust and they'll run screaming back to their native metaplane in, well, Horror?

Exactly. And with filtering now available, that's not too far away most likely.

While this is in a way academic; since the makers of SR have an issue with using the horrors, unless of course you still use the horrors as a backdrop of a threat.

I myself still use them from time to time. The horrors are like the Cthulhu mythos for the SR universe. The smaller horrors that had crossed over would still be plotting and scheming even with current events. Those are the one's that would make good plot lines. Frankly, the PC's should never go up against a true named horror because they wouldn't/shouldn't survive... or very few should survive. The mages in the group would be fodder and easily marked since they are using raw magic. The horror would affect the groups expensiture of karma and keep them from buying successes to save thier butts. Death would follow in short order... or at least you better hope your dead.

And why haven't the major players made people aware of the horrors. Because it's not in thier best interest. They are power players and to them, information is power. They aren't going to let the world know because then they would have entire populations trying to break into thier equivalent of a kaer to be safe. So instead, they keep thier borders tight, keep vigilant and start construction of their kaers early. Knowing corps, they are going to be looking for a way to use the horrors to thier advantage... not realizing that they will be manipulated by the horrors instead. If you don't believe it, look at what Ares started doing with bug spirits in Threats 2. I'm not saying all corps will be that stupid, but you can bet some will, and that some is all that's needed to further the horrors goals.

Harly lied for some reason in the Dragonheart Saga. He's definitely older than 3000 years. As far as I know, his age isn't the only thing he lied about in those books.

Okay, I'll bite. What else did he lie about?

Yeah, you're right about the senority over Ehran. I forget what book it was but I believe Harley said something to the effect of "I have socks older than that guy"

Clever fellow, that one.

Harlequing, Dunkelzahn, and a few other ED era dudes that do not have personal interests such as these. What's stopping them? (Or, in the case of Dunkie, what was stopping him? Or are(/were) they just evil-spirited sons-of-bitches all of them?

To a point, this might be true. However, anything that helps in generating funds or R&D to fight the buggers would be useful. This would mainly include talking with mid/high level corpers though, and not Joe Average.

And Lofwyr doesn't mind in the least that everything he has built so far will collapse and fade away? And it'll be a hell of a lot harder to rebuild too, when all that survives of humanity will be a group of IEs and a few of their regular elven buddies, a number of socially important humans, and misc Big Monsters (including GDs). He'll have to fight with all the same big guys for power in the post-scourge world, and there'll be far less power to go around.

If there's even a slight chance that a greater part of humanity will survive, with a significant part of it Sponsored By Saeder-Krupp, he has nothing to lose -- his corporate empire, all of his wordly fortunes, would be gone anyway. If things turn sour, he can always run away into his lair.

that was pretty much my point, though i think it is a bit clearer the way you said it. he has interest in stuff working out tech wise, but if it doesn't he has somewhere to go that he knows is safe. remember though that he is going to sleep life away shortly after the scourge passes and he won't likely find any use in 6th world tech in the 8th world. also it is hinted in dunkie's will that he and lofwyr have very different views concerning the lesser races. i doubt he'd give a shit if they all very nearly died off.

as for funds and r&d stuff, we know that most mega corps have either IE or GD involvement on on the boards so naturally the corps will benefit the cause, but will anyone but the top echelon necessarily know what they are doing at the time and why? i think that they will continue the approach they have keeping people ignorant until the time comes and then just giving them little or no choice and forcing them. look at the arcology, renraku lackeys rarely left, so it wouldn't be that hard to keep them there and then one day just close it off - as happened.

Even a completely sociopathic dictator cares if his subjects all die off. They, and their wealth (pumped up into the dictator's hands, of course), are a measure of his power.

That was the most important bit I was looking for, really.

Not neccessarily, but the top echelon knowing is enough for the Horrors not to be able to just use any corps like their playtoys. If the top echelon knows that all Horrors really want is to torture and kill humans, they won't be as eager to sell out.

Ah, but corruption is such an easy tool to use on those already seeking power and wealth. It's not the fact that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but that absolute power attracts the corruptible.

The horrors are very good at corrupting others. They will find a few top echelon people in various megacorps to turn to thier cause, and that's all that will be needed to open the door. Those who are power hungry will believe any lie they are told if they think they will be granted more wealth and power.

Well then we only need Harlequin to tell them they get more wealth and power if they stop the Horrors. Problem solved.

Harley is too jaded to care anymore.

Darke could have been marked by Chantrel's Horror. In which case, the horror just re-creates him every time he dies. Oh, that's a lovely thought.

And don't forget that Verjigorm has captured dragons he has corrupted as well.

I could potentially see that happening in the 6th world. Walkers are already available in smaller sizes as it is. It would take some serious R&D time to perfect thou.

No. It's not. There is not, nor has there ever been, magic in the Battletech universe.

And mechs (small ones, at least) are entirely practical in Shadowrun. You can build them with the Rigger 3 construction rules.

In the 2600's... I think. I may be off by a century or two.