I have been a fan of Shadowrun since I played the video game about a decade ago though I don't play E or S, I'm just vaguely interested in this as an interesting fictional world. I do not claim to be an expert on the Earthdawn/Shadowrun Mythos but I do check out this board once in a while (is there a good E board that's active?) and I have taken a look at most of the E/S Mythos books. This is primarily in response to the ridiculously long 'beat the horrors' thread which is now up to 18 pages. The tone of that thread was that Horrors can be bombed or you can hide from them. In my brief exposure to Earthdawn and Shadowrun books, the Horrors cannot be stabbed or shut or blow’d up as long as the Great Pattern of their infinite menace exists. They will come and come and come as long as they can which is what Harlequin and Dunkelzahn say. Now, this is only a game that I don’t even play, but with 18 pages I didn't see any mention of the Earthdawn answers on how to stop the horrors, so I figured I'd help out the discussion that doesn't really matter anyway. Here are some references to stopping the Horrors that I am aware of, there certainly could be more as I only have a very basic understanding of the Earthdawn books. I haven't read any of these books cover to cover, but are just some things that stood out to me while skimming through them:

1-Adepts Way- Under the description of the Nethermancer, a mage class that focuses on metaplanes of the dead and horrors, the writer mentions that, in theory, the horrors dimension can be sealed off from the E/S world. It takes the form of an unfinished manuscript and an unfinished section titled 'On Cosmology and Other Dimensions' is unfinished but referred to in the next section. It says 'As I have described in the preceding passage, finally sealing off our dimension from the Horrors will only be possible once we have answered the 8 questions of Jsona Var. Until then, we must rely on countermeasures to fight the Horrors after they have crossed the threshold to our world.'

So forget about conquering them, but if 8 mystical questions can be answered the Horrors can be shut out forever, in high or low magic I assume.

2-Theran Empire- This is perhaps the most interesting because it ties directly with the Shadowrun novel 'Black Madonna' which I read a long time ago. In that book there is an IE named Leonardo (da Vinci) who is also referred to as Brightlight in some other S source books like Aztlan where he appears in the D-IE discussion and someone mentions him in passing during talk of an AI owning Aztechnology. Leonardo is a follower of the Egyptian goddess Isis and is focused on 'the great work.' In the Theran Empire book, Egypt was once called Creana and central to the Creana gods and goddesses (Ureth, the Creana 'Great Mother' would be Isis) was the 'Great Work.' Which is to connect the magical pattern of Creana with the magical pattern of the 'lands of the west' (don't the Tir na Nog Elves talk about 'lands of the west?') by building monuments and magical structures to bind the two dimensions/patterns together. If this occurs, Creana will be transformed into a paradise as the 'lands of the west' are a metaplane (?) that would be called Heaven or Paradise where the good dead go. The cycle of death and rebirth will end and the heavens and earth will be one. All suffering and fear will disappear as all people will be rules by the Pharon God-King as a part of the strict hierarchy on Heaven/Earth.

That was the 'Great Work' Leonardo was working on in Black Madonna, but I think Leonardo gets captured by Lofwyr after Dunkelzahn dies in the 'Blood in the Boardroom' source book. So, theoretically in the E/S Mythos, by combining the true patterns, or true magical essence or souls of the Earth and Heaven, the earth would transcend to a perfect state of existence untouchable by the Horrors. I guess there needs to be magical obelisks and pyramids and monuments to mystically draw the true pattern of the earth and heaven together. Controlling ley lines, power sites with giant pyramids and establishing a Creana-style Heavenly Hierarchy across the globe with a Pharon God-King in his own home base on the Nile. I guess Lofwyr didn't like that idea too much.

3-Earthdawn Companion- This is where you find the primary metaphysical foundation to beating the Horrors. The Lightbearers are a secret organization directly opposed to the Horrors. Lightbearers draw power from 'The Great Pattern' which is a largely mysterious force. The major explanation is that the Great Pattern is the true Pattern or magical essence or soul of the world (universe?). The Great Pattern gives its followers powers to confront and destroy the Horrors so the Great Pattern is directly opposed to the Horrors. The Great Pattern is opposed to the Great Horror Pattern or whatever the overall mystical force of exploitation that the Horrors represent. Yin and Yang. To serve the Great Pattern you must foreswear blood magic (there is a difference between 'amoral' blood magic and 'evil' death magic) for anything but oaths and lightbearer stuff and you must strive to fight the horrors and 'bring light,' yada yada yada. Some of the powers of followers of the Great Pattern including joining your pattern or soul with the great pattern on death or transferring your soul through the great pattern to another lightbearer to give them your experience. They can heal and transfer karma/magical quanta to each other, avoid and defeat horror magics and all the other good guy stuff you'd expect.

So followers of the Great Pattern gain powers to counter Horrors not from a shear force level, but from a metaphysical countering. Nowhere does it seem like Horrors can be killed with swords or guns, even the Lightbearer powers are usefully only tactically, not strategically to stop the Horrors all together. In the E/S Mythos there seem to be two main forces, the Great Pattern of the world/universe and the Unmaking/exploiting Pattern of Horror. If the 8 questions of Jsona Var were answered or the Great Work Completed, it would mean empowering The Great Pattern to withstand or negate the Horror Pattern and the Horrors.

4-Blood Wood- The Elves of the Blood Wood managed to avoid the Horros by corrupting themselves and inflicting so much pain to themselves collectively, that the Horrors were less interested in them because Horrors want to cause pain and if you take that away from them they are less likely to attack.

So a massive ritual to corrupt metahumans to permanent suffering would make the Horrors less interested but if everyone did that, there wouldn't be easier prey for the Horrors to go after so they woudl still end up going after the corrupted. And the Wood Elves still needed to build magical protections that some Horrors still tried to attack. The Blood Wood book is more interesting for its non-specific but obvious reference to the first Vampire or HMHVV victim, a female elf who disappeared during the Horror rampages and returned later as a super strong blood sucking night walker. There’s your Queen of the Damned.


Here is something else that is somewhat related. Aztlan are the ones pushing the Horrors through death magic. Blood magic in Earthdawn is just using blood to power magical charms or oaths, while death magic was using human sacrifices to power magic. It's called blood magic in Shadowrun, but it's really death magic, not blood magic as it is in Earthdawn. Three things about Aztechnology and Aztlan that I've never seen mentioned anywhere but seem obvious to me.

1-Azzies got their magic from Parlainth. When I first saw the Earthdawn main rule book I was somewhat confused as the map clearly places it in Russia, but the architecture featured prominently is clearly central/south american. Did the artists get carried away and not realize that no such architecture exists in Russia or was it intentional? The Parlainth boxed set proves it was intentional. Teotihuacan in Azltan is the city of Parlainth. How did a city in Russia end up in Mexico and nobody seems to realize it, not even the IE's and Dragons? To escape the scourge, a great magical ritual was placed on the city of Parlainth that would allow it to transport itself to a supposed safe place in the astral. The ritual was so powerful that once the city disappeared, its very memory and records would be erased from everyone and everywhere in the world. After the scourge it reappeared in Russia and everyone suddenly remembered it again. Though some Horrors snuck into the city before it was sealed and perhaps more entered once it was adrift in the Astral and they corrupted the whole city. In the Parlainth boxed set are pictures of horrors and bloody sacrifice in the Central American style. The architecture and art of the city are designed directly after the real ancient city in Mexico. So the FASA folks obviously had Parlainth disappear before the Theran Cataclysm and magic was still good, but instead of the Astral, it ended up in Mexico. In Target: Awakened Lands, under the description of Teotihuacan it mentions that the Aztecs didn't build the city, but found it as it was, abandoned and built upon older ruins as the magic level had fallen that the horrors could no longer exist in the world. No doubt the writings and artifacts left over where what inspired if not gave the Azzies all the info they needed for blood and death magic. The implication is clearly that Parlainths unique 'Theran' architecture inspired the art and architecture of the entire Central American region, as did the practice of blood sacrifice which are depicted by the Horrors to mark their corruption of Parlainth. Did the IE's and Dragons forget about Parlainth again when it moved to Mexico and so they really have no memory, or do they realize what happened and just keep it to themselves?

2-So Parlainth, corrupted by Horrors, is the real spiritual heart of Aztlan, so who is the corrupted dragon always rumored to be behind Aztlan? Certainly that would better explain Aztlan blood and Death magic as the Dragon could teach it directly, no need to try to figure out ancient tablets and the like. Well, if you've read the Earthdawn Dragons source book you'd know that the only dragon associated with Parlainth is Charcoalgrin. Charcoalgrin was obsessed with Parlainth as she was the one who gave the city the spell to remove Parlainth from reality and memory, so when it appeared and she remembered, she returned to find the city gutted by Horrors. She moved in to the city and set about using local rogues to search the city and bring her its corrupted treasures. In Dragons, it mentions that Charcoalgrin was interested in sending Parlainth back to its secret hiding place and that she was insane as far as dragons go. It's clear that she was able to move Parlainth though not where she intended. Perhaps one of the Horrors deep under the city came forth and corrupted her or perhaps when Parlainth was transferred to the astral again as it moved, Horrors invaded the city and corrupted her. Thus when she awoke from her sleep in her lair under Parlainth, she found Mexico/Aztlan which she gradually corrupted by introducing the old gods and religion as a screen to use blood and death magic to dominate the world and open the world to the Horrors. That she is ultimately behind Oscuro. I don't recall what type of Dragon, Eastern, Western, or whatever she was though in Aztlan an Eastern dragon is mentioned. Though Charcoalgrin could have other corrupt dragons working for her, it seems clear that the mystery dragon behind Aztechnology is Charcoalgrin. We have a mystery and we have the FASA folks mentioning Charcoalgrin and Parlainths connection for a reason, and this is in keeping with how they hide E/S info in rumors and riddles. Just like a movie or book, if it's important enough to be there, there must be a reason for it. This ties those mysteries together by connecting all the short strands FASA has put out, so this must be it.

3-Why was Charcoalgrin really so obsessed with Parlainth? Because her prized student and friend the Theran human Erypimese, was in Parlainth when it vanished and when the city returned and she remembered him, she found he was gone. But some of the 'astral patrol boats' which would allow small numbers from the city to leave and travel the metaplanes in astral boats were missing. So it was Charcoalgrins hope that Erypimese had survived in one of those boats and if she returned Parlainth to its astral pocket, she could search for him there. So if the Aztlan Dragon is Charcoalgrin, Juan Atzcapotzalco is Erypimese. How could a human survive that long even after Charcoalgrin found him floating in the astral? Charcoalgrin was so enamored with this guy that she taught him secret Dragon magics that allowed Parlainth to disappear and allow him some of the power of Drakes, the shape shifting ability and long life. Juan is a strange character, in the Aztlan book Hualpa mentions that when he met Juan he sensed a magic power about him but could read no magical aura even though Juan is a known magician. Ehren later says that when he met Juan, he sensed power mystical abilities and would have assumed he was an IE like himself but Juan appears totally human. Clearly Juan is a powerful figure in Shadowrun and even IE's and Dragons can't pierce his aura. We have Parlainth clearly in Aztlan. We have Charcoalgrin, Parlainths master and protector as the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology. Her personal favorite Erypimese, for whom she risked everything and taught all her mystical dragon secrets but was a human of Mediterranean features and could pass for Mexican and was as powerful a human mage as there has been. Who could be so powerful a magician to fool Ehren and Hualpa face to face? Only somebody with deep magical secrets, the kind only dragons could have and even then Hualpa couldn't pierce his masking. There's no way a human could have been born and in a few decades have magic power that rivals or exceeds Ehren and Hualpa. The only person Juan can be is Erypimese.


So Mike Mulvahill, what do I win?

Well, Mike is working on Shadowrun: Duels right now, but if I have anything to say about it, current Shadowrun Line Developer Rob Boyle gives you at least as much as applause as I do.

*applause*

Good post. Very good post.

Very good post, and it all seems to fit together well.

One note though - Brightlight (Leonardo) and Leonardo da Vinci aren't the same; I forgot exactly where this info is, though, but maybe AH or another well-informed DSer can assist with that?

I believe that admission is at the end of Technobabble perhaps? One of the novels has a final few paragraphs where I think Lofwyr shows up and berates Leonardo for meddling in his affairs. Leonardo admits to not being the /real/ Leonardo, and says he claimed to be because the guy was so cool. Then said dragon incapacitates Leonardo, possibly killing him.

Or that all could just be a figment of my crack addled imagination. I'll check when I get home this evening.

Agreed. Good job, Master Shake.

Pretty damn astute.

So then, any knowledgeable folks out there want to shed some light on what happened to Juan when he opened Dunkelzahn's magic box?

Assuming that he was this guy Erypimese he's probably fairly anti-Horror, if he's working with the Azzies and a corrupted Dragon though, some changes have obviously taken place. Maybe he's been Horror Marked or mind controlled in some way? Certainly something happened to Juan in the early 50's.

Seems most likely to me that Dunkie has set him free from this control somehow, would you agree? And either he has then went underground or went back to wherever he was travelling around in the metaplanes.

Working with this information certainly makes a lot of other things fall into place.

For those interested in Leonardo, Lofwyr doesn't kill him and it's rumoured he's put to work for Saeder-Krupp, possibly in Antartica.

On a side note, I don't think I mentioned it before, but once you get past the whole being-a-Horror-dedicated-to-causing-people-unbearable-suffering thing, Artificer is rather cute.

~J

Nice. Reminds me of the Alamais(e) Theory (insofar as good deductions and source material, not copying.).

Master Shake is hereby awarded Madd Props To All My Homies. Excellent post.

There are unquestionably Horrors that cannot be bombed, shot, stabbed, etc.
However, there are equally unquestionably Horrors that can be. If you can lay down some HMG fire on a pack of Gnashers, it means they're going to do you a lot less damage (such as none) and Devourer has less time to eat your memories of how to kill it before you get to it.
Tech doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all answer to mean the difference between beating the Horrors and being overrun again.

~J

This is just a pet theory but I thought I'd see what you all make of it.

I think Aztlan has no Horror corrupted or possesed or whatever being in charge. All the blood magic and crap with Sr. Oscuro (who does serve the horrors) is an attempt to get the scourge going early. Why is Aztlan working with Oscuro and the Horrors?

Aztlan has some Immortal (elf or dragon or both) at the top. This Immortal(s) longs for the days when they were large and in charge (works better here if it's a dragon) and is scehming to bring this about. Aztlan is a deliberate attempt to recreate Thera (which implies an IE).

An early Scourge means that only the prepared will survive, mostly the great dragons. There may be some IE's left and if ED is any yardstick a few enclaves of the young races (some primitives did manage to avoid the scourge). After the Horrors leave the being who was able to prepare the best starts from a position of strength. All the Immortals know this and are maneuvering to shore up strength.

The Immortal(s) in charge of Aztlan were going to bring the Scourge early to cath the others with their pants down. They want to use the Horrors as a gambit in their game. Ego!

There are a few potential holes in the theory, if anyone's interested. Some are merely matters of interpretation.

I'm interested. Hold on, let me get my kevlar vest...

i'd doubt that one. immortal seem to keep low profiles and making themselves the only target left seems a bit foolish. by informing the lesser races, they allow the horrors someone else to prey on for their hundred years long rampage. if they all die in the beginning that leaves the immortals as the only target for those hundreds of years.

also, the primitives didn't survive too well, ala cave trolls.

all in all tho, i must say that this is a most encompassing thread with an excellent mind behind it, especially considering that the author has no connections to the games.

master shake, i applaud you

btw, which theory AH?

The quote which was earlier misquoted.
Dunklezan said (Maybe in Aztlan) that with modern technology, the dragons won' be able to hide out.

Actually, nothing says that the Horrors will ever touch a piece of technology. Yes, Horror-marked individuals will use it, and to great effect, but it's rather different than, say, cyber-Gnashers or Yrsgrthe with a LAW.

~J

Because there's no point. Either they can't use them (gnashers, dread iotas, etc.) or they have absolutely no reason to use them because they don't feed off of that (Tempter, Chantrel's Horror, basically any big-name Horror). The only Horror that I can think of that would consider it (and actually would do it) is Hunter of Hunters.

~J

Edit: and yes, I know that the Dragons won't be safe in their lairs. My point is just that tech can still be an edge for humanity.

And my point is that because of tech, humanity and everything else face a bigger danger this time.

And my point is that they don't, with the exception of the fact that Water is now easier to corrupt.

~J

Getting awfully personal, aren't you?

Historians will do that.

~J

Sorry, just got back from class.

I'd like to note that while I'm completely bashing parts of this for ignorance or WTF?-factor, there are some good ideas here! Really!

Ok, I'll bite: what scene?

imoan watts and some other chick getting smoochy.

"Naomi is i moan spelled backwards" is a line from VanWilder.

(To be said in a milla jovovich/ Fifth Element style)

Wow!


Outstanding. Very good post there Mr Shake.
My knowledge of the meta plot is very limited. But you seemed to have made some interesting conclusions (as well as far fetched)

I must apologize for not being quite as thorough as I thought I was. I was merely pointing out some horror references from Earthdawn in response to one of the longest threads I've seen on any message board. I'm not interested in being an active posting member of this board, I just thought I'd share some Earthdawn info because I'm impressed with the E/S world and it seems like the discussion was missing the E answers to the Horrors and Scourge. In retrospect, I could have added a few more thoughts to more fully flesh out my original post. I realize that I bit off a large chunk which seems to have confused some so consider this an appendix to my original post.

On Horrors:
1- I merely quoted what was written in the Adepts Way. Where a Nethermancer specifically states that the horrors can be theoretically stopped if 8, unspecified questions are answered. Nothing too complex here.

2- Black Madonna is about Leonardo financing his 'Great Work.' Great work is mentioned time and again but is never specified. The Theran Empire book is poorly written and unimaginative and the Creanan pantheon is a nearly god for god copy of ancient Egyptian. The Creana section of the book opens with the Creanan creation myth which overtly parallels the Egyptian myths and Ureth is clearly Isis while Tabru is Osiris, her slain husband who is murdered by Malek or Seth who goes off to be the haunt of the desert, the dry, parched land what means the death to the river and to civilization. It doesn't take a detective to see the connection, just a basic understanding of Egyptian mythology because the Theran Empire book lacks subtly and is the least original of a sourcebook you'll ever find for a fantasy game. So yes, it is quite clear that Ureth is Isis, and that the Immortal Elf Leonardo served Ureth, as a Questor perhaps, in the earlier age. And 'Great Work' that Leonardo is so obsessed about happens to also be the ultimate goal of the Creanan/Egyptian pantheon. So Leonardo, an immortal and follower of Isis/Ureth where 'Great Work' was the ultimate religious quest, starts talking vaguely about 'great work' and we're supposed to think that it's something totally different? This seems obvious to me, perhaps I'm missing something. In reference to the Great Work, by building magically patterned monuments, the true patterns of heaven and earth can be made one and the cycle of death and rebirth will end. I paraphrased from the section entitled 'On the Great Work.' A specific quote would be: 'When the Great Work is completed, the burning sands of Amez-Chelk will change to a paradise like the Lands of the West. The need for the cycle of death and rebirth will disappear and the heavens and earth will be as one. All striving, all suffering and all fear will depart from this world. All realms will join the pyramid of Name-givers and the outlanders will spend eternity to happy service to the Creanan-born.' Rebirth or reincarnation is what is stated along with the promise that Creanan and the world can be permanently severed from pain and suffering and that would include the Horrors as well. I fail to see where misunderstandings could arise here.

3-The Great Pattern is mysterious. FASA never likes to come out and be obvious, but saying that it's most likely the True Pattern of the World is more than a big hint. The metaphysics of the E/S Mythos are never explained, at least I've never seen it laid out. It's clear that Horrors represent a force of elemental exploitation and sterilizing parasites that don't produce, only consume. While Horrors are dealt with individually, in E, everything has a True Pattern, even groups which means that behind individual Horrors is a kind of Horrible Pattern, a True Pattern of the Horrors even though that is never stated anywhere specifically. Perhaps quotes will help: '...because the Lightbearers strive to reclaim the world from the Scourge, the world itself grants them power through its True Pattern.' Later other theories for the Great Pattern are given but the text itself doubts those could be true. So we have the Great Pattern being directly opposed to the Horrors which is why the powers the Great Pattern offers deal with healing and countering Horrors. The True Pattern of the world which contains its creatures and metahumans is about the exact opposite to the Horrible Pattern. When the Horrors can, they attack and corrupt and cause pain to the Great Pattern and the Great Pattern fights back. Now, I didn't write any of this stuff, but it's pretty clear that this would constitute some metaphysics, the light dark, yin yang, great possibility and corruption, freedom and slavery. FASA doesn't like to come out and say it directly, but it's clear that the Great Pattern and the Horrible Pattern are as close to a polar opposite metaphysics as E/S has. In light of the lost 8 questions and the 'Great Work,' we can use this metaphysical understanding of the E/S Mythos and have a better understanding of what would go on in the internal reality of the game world.

The Great Pattern, or the True Pattern of the world contains the life and energy of the world. Not good or evil since the world is filled with violence and karma, the metaphysical magical quanta of the E/S Mythos isn't about being good, but about being active. Gain Karma even if, or because of, breaking into a lab and murdering innocent minimum wage sec guards who just want to provide food for their family and survive. So the Great Pattern is about the often violent growth and exchange and freedom. While the Horrors are about tyranny (in Har's Back, the futuristic Horror-world is dominated by an absolute dictator in Oscuro) and pain (almost all the named horrors in E) and consuming, not producing. In the tyrannies of the sterile corp world, magic can be warped or corrupted by the lack of energy and vision as places in the Great Pattern wear thin. Growth, freedom, explosion, energy are the 'values' of the Great Pattern. You see this in the E Passions or gods where the normal passions are expressions of freedom, energy, life, etc. While those Passions that were corrupted by Horrors like Dis went from being Passion of order and efficiency to slavery, confusion and sterile bureaucracy. It's clear when you look at the E/S Mythos as a whole what the fundamental metaphysics of this fictional world are.

Horrors represent stagnation and corruption and the restriction of the Great Pattern. Theoretically it is possible to bring the Great Pattern and the Pattern of the Lands of the West or some archtypal paradise/heaven together, transcending any such conflicts with Horrors. By bringing the two patterns together and in effect, Re-Naming the world/universe to separate from the Horrible Pattern entirely. Horrors cannot be killed off, they can only be shut off, their reality forever closed to the Great Pattern. If they come, according to Harle and Dunk, they will be unstoppable. Can't fight with guns, no matter how good they might be.

4-Permanent suffering doesn't sound like a great idea. If you can read the Blood Wood and not be convinced that the elf woman who is is described as having all the attributes of a vampire/HMHVV and not be convinced, then what can I say? She's strong, drinks blood, operates at night, etc. and was a blood magic expert. If HMHVV is not akin to blood magic, even down to the de-pattern which occurs with extreme blood magic, plus the blood drinking of vampires (though FASA is kind of vague on how Banshee's feed) or flesh eating of Wendigos, then what is it? I think you're making this too hard, FASA throws out the clues and you're supposed to put them together. Did it ever say that 'Big D' was in fact Dunk? Or that Wordsmythe is Ehren? Or that Alachia is back on the scene in Tir Tairngire? Just a little detective work, nothing overt but the clues seems pretty obvious and they make sense. I don’t need a signed confession and each will view this uniquely.

Speaking of detective work, on Aztlan:

1-Look at the cover of the Parlainth Boxed set, that is clearly Teotihuacan. The artists took the look of the art and architecture directly from that real ancient city. The step pyramids that are supposedly in a 'unique Theran style' could be put on Mexican money because they so closely copy the real pyramids. It's clear that the art and architecture is clearly central American, while nothing looks like that in Russua. The other cities in Barsaive are less interesting artisitically, their look is kind of vague but Parlainth is clearly a Central American city and was specifically designed to look that way. There was a reason, not even the Theran Empire book contains any art or cities that are central American, just Parlainth. We know that the city moves, we also know that the ancient mystery city of Teotihuacan was abandoned by those who first found it and built upon its ruins according to T:AL. Parlainth, a distinctly C American city exists in Russia but it has a tendency to be there and not be there and it isn't there now. We also have a mystery city, which looks exactly like Parlainth for a reason in C America. Hmmm. We know from the Parlainth book that Horrors conquered the city and produced grotesque works of art featuring themselves and bloody sacrifices which look exactly like the Aztec and Mayan art depicting Monsters and murderous sacrifices. Teotihuacan is the Azzies most sacred site that they give it great respect and stay away from it. Certainly if Teotihuacan is Parlainth would explain the mysterious origins of the city in C America that T:AL specific mentions being mysterious and found abandoned (magic dropped, Horrors couldn't stick around but left behind some of their secrets about blood and death magic for the Azzies to find) plus its absence and lack of similar artwork and architecture in Russia. Would also explain some of the secret magics the Azzies practice with no discernable source that only IE's and Dragons know and can practice. Perhaps most obviously, that direct knowledge from a lost city from a previous age is what gave the Mayans the understanding of when the 6th world would begin. Gave the Aztecs knowledge of the tzitzimine (horrors) that return every few thousand years to destroy the world. The scourge happened all over, so why is it that the Mayans know when the 6th age would start and nobody else does? Mayans have 2012 on their calender as the end of the age but no other cultures make such claims. The Azzies and Mayans even know how many ages there have been, how many times the horrors have come while again, no other cultures around the world have such knowledge. Did the Ancient Greeks have 2012 on a mystical calender? Nope, and Thera was right off shore. How about the Hindus or Sumerians or Europeans? Not even the Egyptians, for all their mysticism managed to hold onto lore about Horrors and the cycles of magic, but one small region of the world did. It's clear that the S Mythos was built around Mayan/Aztec mythologies because they are given special credence above all other mythologies. The S creators used the Mayan calender and Aztec ages and demons to flesh out their world. What's the explanation for how these people in this small region could have this powerful understanding of the true world while this knowledge was forgotten or stamped out all over the rest of the globe? A secret city of mysterious origins that the IE's and Dragons forgot about, but the locals found the city and saw its art and architecture and blood sacrifices and learned about horrors and the cycles of magic. It's impossible that the art and architecture of C America would, just by chance, be reproduced exactly in Russia. What the FASA guys are saying is that Parlainth once again moved, but this time it ended up in Mexico. If a Central American city in Russia that no longer exists in Russia doesn't seem strange to you, then what can I say?

2- There is a dragon behind Aztechnology because that's the persistent rumor. In Aztlan, a Large corrupted Eastern Dragon is spotted landing on the main Aztec Pyramid and going inside. Plus all the connections between Horrors and Aztlan are undeniable. Teotihuacan is sacred to Azzies, they don't pollute it with their rites but leave the power alone. That isn't like them. They won't even allow summoning near Teotihuacan because they fear what could be summoned, and most likely corrupted by the powerful site. Why would the Azzies not exploit the most powerful sacred spot in their region? Because Teotihuacan is reserved for someone special. Charcoalgrin was the master of Parlainth she was th eone who had the ritual to make the city move. It is clear to me that Parlainth is Teotihuacan which means Charcoalgrin is the Dragon behind Aztlan. It could be some totally unnamed Dragon of course, but I'm just going by what clues I see and this is what I conclude.

In Dragons, Charcoalgrin is described as insane but in Parlainth boxed set the GM is given two options for Charcoalgrin. 1 is that Charcoalgrin is just an eccentric old wyrm, the second option, and more interesting, is that Charcoalgrin was '...corrupted during the scourge, aims to carry on the destructive campaign of the Horrors.' Which explains why she uses sadistic criminals and killers and thugs who torment those they catch as her pawns and they gradually become more corrupted the longer they are her 'unforgivables.' So clearly there is a hint of Charcoalgrin being corrupt and serving her master, some powerful Horror, perhaps Verjigorm who targets Dragons especially and is the King of Horrors. She is the one who wanted to remove Parlainth back to its Astral pocket to find Erypimese and since there is no record of a Central American city in Russia, she must have succeeded.

3-Juan as Erypimese makes sense following the previous two points. He is a powerful, immortal human mage, capable of feats of powers that are exclusive to Dragons since Charcoalgrin taught him her secret lore. The only other possible human immortal would be Uhl Denairastas but he would never be a front man like Juan. Erypimese would do anything Charcoalgrin wanted and that fits him being a powerful mage that can confuse IE's and Dragons, but still be apublic figure because he's serving his mistress Charcoalgrin. It's clear from what Hualpa and Ehren say, that Juan is a human, as powerful or more powerful than themselves-clearly an immortal and clearly human. It's possible that Parlainth, Charcoalgrin and Erypimese are just coincidences and they have no connection to Aztlan. But knowing the way FASA works, and seeing that they think it's important to feature Parlainths art and architecture, Charcoalgrin and Erypimese's relationship and their connection to a moving city was made part of the game world for a reason. These aren’t obscure secondary references, Parlainth, Chasrcoalgrin and Erypimese are important aspects of Earthdawn, so why are they? ‘Just because?’ What I explained answers many questions and uses pre-existing and known E/S characters and facts. If this isn't what Mike Mulvahill and his lot intended, it's one hell of a coincidence.

I hope I have cleared up your confusions of my original post.

David Dankel does still post on occaison.

Shake: Better! But I still feel you're wrong about the vampire-chick and really wrong about Teotihuacan. I mean, your basic argument is that Parlainth has pyramids therefore it must have been transported across the Atlantic to Central America. Has it perhaps not occurred that Creana has pyramids that could have proved the inspiration for Parlainth's?

Don't forget that at the Destruction of Thera at the end of the Fouth World, the Theran's spread out all over the globe (ref Threats, Atlantean Conspiracy). Even alowing for Lone Gunman's tendency to jump to conclusions, I think this is likely.

If the mana levels were getting low, perhaps the desperate refugee Therans used death magic to help them gain some power in Central America, thus starting the sacrifice tradition as well as bringing the Parlainth architectural style which was considered berfore the Scourge to be very swanky by the Theran's (ref Parlainth Box Set).

Either the Aztlaners are genetically predisposed to evil because they are Hispanic, or they are more easily corrupted by the Horrors for the same reason. See one of the ur-texts of Shadowrun, the Lord of the Rings. "Swarthy"=evil. The fantasy genre is fundamentally racist, Shadowrun can not escape this.

A little sensetive, aren't we Mr. CopKiller??