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Canon, n.

An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.

A secular law, rule, or code of law.

An established principle: the canons of polite society.

A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.

The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.

A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: “the durable canon of American short fiction” (William Styron).

The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.

Canon The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer.

The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.

Music. A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time.

[Middle English canoun, from Old English canon, and from Old French both from Latin canon, rule, from Greek kanon,measuring rod, rule.]

(Emphasis added)

So I don't think it's at all unusual for us to refer to the FASA- and FanPro-produced works, and the contents within, as canon.

You could also add:
canon: (from Wordnet) a rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy: "the neoclassical canon"; "canons of polite society".

But hey, there is only one meaning, just like there is only one possible theory. Everything and everyone else is wrong! sarcastic.gif ohplease.gif
QUOTE ("Master Shake")
In Blood Wood we have a rather clear description of an HMHVV carrier, and as she is described, she would appear to be the first and originator of the blood magic/virus. HMHVV could only arise through some radical and dangerous magic and we have someone doing such research, even with a dash of Horror connection thrown in for good measure. She is described as being pale, only appearing at Nights, being strong enough to rip apart Elf patrols and she rips out hearts and drinks all their blood. If she isn't the first HMHVV, then why is she in the source book?

Why would that stuff be in the book? Gee, I dunno, for flavour? A clear description of a vampire? What the hell? I don't recall meeting a vampire in Shadowrun meeting that description exactly. What could she be? Perhaps a wacked out elf on bad ju-ju, suffering a list of ailments from the stuff. Simply her body can't handle the bad joules of magic going through her. Or how about a hallucination of the mind of simple folk, to make it easier to explain the deaths?

HMHVV has to be caused by magic? And exactly how are you such an expert on HMHVV, its origin, and the specific requirements of magic abuse for its origin? Perhaps it had more to do with human sheep herders in the 4th age bumping uglies with Awakened sheep. Hey, there is a good theory on its origins, prove me wrong.

The specific art and look of the city was designed based on gridlines of the game developers. That's specifically how they wanted the city to look.

Excuse me, but until you have the artist, writer(s), editor and line director confirm that, I request you shut your pie-hole.

.  .  . the art and architecture is no accident.

Yes, yes it is. Look at what FASA had just done, shortly before the release of Earthdawn. They had this really popular game called Shadowrun, which turned RPGs on their ears because of something radical and new - a focus on the beliefs and culture of Native (North) Americans. Many people bought the game because of the radical departure of other games, not only the system, but also the setting.

I recall early Earthdawn products always had a Meso-American feel to them (or that is what I recall). Why? Because the FASA guys knew that the same old European or Asian style of setting was already getting boring, with D&D, Oriental Adventures, and others already using those styles to death. No one had as of yet used the Meso-American style (TSR would later try, and fail IMO, with a Forgotten Realms sub-setting), so they used that as the foundation for the art and architecture of their setting.

As to why the Shadowrun mythos used the Mayan calender, hey, it was there and it was useful to use it to explain the Awakening. If FASA had access to an Old Norse Calender that foretold the day of Ragnorok, odds are they would have used that.

Dude, its just marketing. Thats why you can't really trust an art style to base a theory on.


Using the word 'canon' which refers to the finalized religious texts of Christianity, specificaly the Bible, to refer to the books from a meaningless RPG is really fucking anal.

You know, after his initial explosion, Ancient History was trying to make amends and discuss this with you. Too bad you come across as such a spiteful and insecure person that you couldn't do the same. You sir (or ma'am, gotta be gender equal), are a loser. You coulda had some theories worth listening to, but I tend to have hard of hearing when it comes to sanctimonious blowhards.
Master Shake
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Do you even read what I post? Even ignoring for the moment that the entire section I quoted is rumor and hearsay, lets focus on the "facts."

Something ambushes bloodwarder patrols on nights when the moon is full, ripping out their hearts and draining their blood. Sometimes a pale woman looking like Eletheria is seen on the same nights. Not beyond the means of a homicadal critter/Namegiver/Horror/Spirit/Really-Big-Mosquito and coincidence/rural legend. You could make an argument for the loup-garou's cycle, but then you wouldn't see the nice pale elf lady would you?

Notice that there is no record of any of these victims rising from their graves or dissapearing mysteriously, nor of the phenomenon spreading to indicate there's more of whatever's doing it. HMHVV could easily handle a simple rip-out-the-heart trick.

Besides which, we've seen zero indication of any of the powers of the Infected, because we don't know how the patrols were killed. Shite, the killings could simply be death magic to extend Eletheria's life.

Maybe I'm just a tad more stringent in my guidelines, but I'm not going to make a wild or important claim until I'm positive I can back it up in canon. Even then, I always make sure it's noted as my claim. I don't even accept 100% of what Lou Prosperi says unless its in a sourcebook (all due deference to the great LP).

Please re-refer yourself to the appropriate sections of the Dragons.pdf, the Vivane Boxed Set, the Aztlan Sourcebook and the Survival of the Fittest campaign. It is a matter of debate whether or not a dragon is behind AZT, but given the historical feud between feather serpents regarding blood magic in the area, the conflict between Hualpa and a Shadowy dragon in SotF, the fact that feathered serpents familiar with death magic were teaching it to local Namegivers, the vision of the corrupted dragon (along with the other comments) in the Aztlan book; I'd lay more money on a feathered serpent being behind AZT than any other type of dragon, with one exception.

The major sticking point is that Teotihuacan is Parlainth and Charcoalgrin is Corrupted. I would sooner accept that Vestrivan returned from the dead like Ghostwalker and set up AZT for his own inscrutable purposes before saying that a dragon who has so far shown no interest in blood magic and no influence by the Horrors (but loves personal attention) has suddenly become the twisted mastermind half a world away. At least we know he's Horror-marked.

There are still more holes in your Theory than I'd like to discuss, mainly because you're being belligerent. I don't even want to go point by point with you on this again. It's exhausting for me, especially because of the uber-paragraph format of your posts.

You need to fold that hand because you're playing with garbage. We have a clear description fitting HMHVV nearly perfectly, from the only appearing at night, from being powerful and, as you yourself observed 'simply be death magic to extend Eletheria's life. Right, that's what HMHVV do, they consume the essences/souls of their victims to extend their lives. HMHVV is prevelent in the 6th world, it must have started somewhere. In the 4th world it is nota big concern but there is specific reference to the classical 'Vampire' in Companion which mentions such a Vampire can be warded off with garlic. We have HMHVV in the 4th Age, but there can't be many, so we're close to the source, before it expanded throughout the world, as it is in the 6th world. So where did it start? Well, we have a pretty clear description of HMHVV arising in a blood mage, perhaps even horror mage from the Blood Wood. Eletheria is described in such a way that the clear impression is that she is the first HMHVV carrier. Someone claimed that this couldn't be because HMHVV existed before Eletheria, if that is the case, then Eletheria being the first would be wrong. But those who made those claims have yet to back any of them up so as it stands, we're left with a description of a blood magician's dark research possibly involving Horrors, with the result that she is now a night-walking, powerful blood drinker who, as someone put it, probably is using the feedings to prolong her life.

When trying to figure out the 'real' connections, you have to look at the descriptions and rumors presented in the books. Either it is clearly stated, or it is rumor and vague which is why it takes effort to piece this together. If it was clear, there wouldn't need to be a discussion. I think the Lady protesteth too much about 'standards' for acceptance. I recently read a long, rambling post which was an attempt to string together rumors and descriptions from the Earthdawn books for a 'history' of E. That was filled with ramblings and unfounded speculations galore. Is 'Wordsmyth,' Ehren? Of course. Is it ever stated specifically in ANY S book that Ehren is Wordsyth? No, it isn't. So how can you explain the selective standards for acceptance? Ehren is 'Wordsmyth' not because it specifically says so anywhere, but because we know 'Wordsmyth' is powerful in Tir Tairngire, that he has an adversarial relationship with Laughing Man, who is Harlequin (though where does it state that’ Laughing Man’ is Harlequin specifically, or even that Big D is Dunkelzahn?) and that Ehren is a writer as well as adversary of Harlequin. It's clear that Ehren is 'Wordsmyth' but NOWHERE IS THIS SPECIFICALLY STATED. You follow?

Nowhere is Eletheria specifically called the 'Queen of the Damned.' But if we were only interested with what is specifically stated, there wouldn't be much to discuss. 'Wordsmyth' isn't for 'flavor,' but is a major player in the meta-plot. HMHVV is secondary to E/S as a whole, but it is an important fact of the game. The rumors about Eletheria, as specific as they are, serve a purpose. As do the RUMORS of a Dragon being behind Aztlan, and the RUMORS that the Dragon is corrupted, and the RUMORS that Juan is an Immortal. If you want to claim that Fire Dragons are behind Aztlan because of some much vaguer and less specific rumors and claims that you still haven’t produced yet, then you should be convinced by the Queen of the Damned. Since there is specific game evidence (rumors) tying her to dangerous blood magic and the strengths and weakness associated with HMHVV, which is far more than your non-specific rumors of Feathered Dragons. To claim that since it COULD be a mosquito, and that there is no reason to think it's Eletheria is laughably absurd. 'Wordsmyth' could be a mosquito as well, or me, or it could be Dunkelzahn or Big Foot. If you want to argue facts, that's fine, but don't be an ass. All we're doing is looking at unspecific data and trying to infer what and who it refers to. That's what we do with Ehren, the same with Eletheria. If your original claim that HMHVV existed prior to Eletheria is factual, then she couldn't be Queen of the Damned. But that claim wasn't based on anything in Earthdawn, was it? So you either accept the specific description of her, or you must make absurd excuses for why it can't be correct and why what is specifically stated is just a titanic coincidence. Believe your eyes, you're making this harder than it needs to be.

If your claim that Fire or Feather Dragon(s) are behind Aztlan because they live in warm climates and practice blood magic, you should at least give us all some quotes that are the basis of your hypothesis, because by itself, that's pretty weak. In Aztlan, the corrupted Dragon that is spotted is EASTERN, not Feathered, though who knows is that is THE Dragon, but it's not Feathered. The type of THE Dragon behind Aztlan is unspecified with contradictory rumors. If there was a single strong rumor, we could take that and run. There isn't. So laying money on a Feathered Dragon is a pretty risky proposition. If the claim is that a local Great Feathered is behind Aztlan, a rival of Hualpa, then why doesn't Hualpa recognize the magical signature behind Aztlan? Why doesn't he recognize Juan, clearly a human immortal who is the servant of THE Dragon? Hualpa is a great and I'm sure he knows great Feathered Dragons, particularly those who, according to you, lived right next to him. But Hualpa has no idea who's behind Aztlan. I guess it could be a Feathered Dragon from India, thus Hualpa wouldn't be expected to know them automatically, but there is no reason or evidence to think THE Dragon is Feathered anyway. So you have a groundless speculation of THE Dragon being Feathered, and even that doesn't fit. Your entire argument seems to be that since Feathered dragons lived there, one must be behind it. Just because Fire Dragons use blood magic DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRUPT. Hualpa isn't corrupt. AZTLAN IS CORRUPT. Feathered Dragons lived elsewhere and no Aztech version in India or Africa.

The Aztlan Explanation explains THE dragon behind Aztlan. Unlike Vestrivan, Charcoalgrin isn't dead. Vestrivan and Charcoalgrin are both local Russian Dragons and Aztlan is on the other side of the world. I have explained how Charcoalgrin got on the other side of the world, how did Vestrivan get there after he came back to life? More ridiculous excuses to deny the obvious. If you want to claim that because Feathered dragons lived in C America, and elsewhere, so they must be behind Aztlan feel free. If you want to claim that a known dead dragon came back from the dead and decided to move to the other side of the world to start Aztechnology, you certainly can. The Aztlan Explanation is thorough, based on the established game facts and is not contradicted by what we know of E/S. If you're not allergic to history, get a Mexican history book and the Parlainth Boxed set to see for yourself. I can't post the pictures proving it, but only weak excuses and denials are the basis for your disagreement.

Some unnamed, unknown in Earthdawn, Feathered Dragon with an unknown relationship to Juan, and a mysterious ability to fool Hualpa the Alpha Male of the Feather Dragon world, who is corrupted COULD be the answer. But considering that there is no reason or evidence to think that, it's highly unlikely. Follow the facts, follow the mysterious forgettable city and everything fits into place. The Dragon rumored to be insane and Corrupt, rumored to have a human immortal as a puppet just like Juan, and happens to be the mistress of the amazing disappearing and forgetting city that happens to be Teotihuacan, the heart of Aztlan. Aztlan Explanation puts names and faces tothese rumors while any wild speculation could be posited, WHAT USE IS IT AND WHAT DOES IT EXPLAIN? This Explains Aztlan. This is just a game and referring to this stuff as 'canon' is too pretentious, even for me. But this is still as clear and factual as Ehren being 'Wordsmyth,' even though this is never specifically stated.

Don't get yourself into more trouble by making claims that you can't back up (see the first few pages on this thread), but if I'm wrong, I would appreciate being corrected.
I see you with a pair of 2s and AH has 3 Aces.

Still no Canon references I see. Pity.

Don't get yourself into more trouble by making claims that you can't back up (see the first few pages on this thread), but if I'm wrong, I would appreciate being corrected.
I don't beleive that there are any suggestions in earthdawn that Obsidimen are related (biologically) to the other namegiver races.  There are, however, suggestions that they are not related.  It would be really quite bizarre, given how obsidimen work, if humans were UGE'ing into them, or giving birth to baby Obsidimen.  For one thing I am pretty sure there are no baby Obsidimen.  They bud off of thier liferocks fully formed and at least somwhat educated and intelligent.

Tskrang are, I think, also not related to humans at all.  If they are anywhere during down cycle it might be a non-sentient form.

Good Point,
Obsidimen are unlikely to been within humanity.

T'skang on the other hand, depends if you want to intepret evolution + magic side of things, some scientific circles refer to the instinctive side of the brain being the old reptile side.

T'skang could awaken from the reptilian genes that we may still possess, from when mammals evolved from reptiles.

I'm no zoologist so this could be entirely wrong, however it appeals to me that powerful, knowledgable individuals may have targeted either humanity or perhaps animal species with Vitas (After all who'd have noticed if a high percentage of crocodiles died during Vitas) to eradicate the chance of them returning.

This could have been deployed against other species, such as the Jackelmen, or they could have simply not made it.

Master Shake
All that matters in life is what you care about. What matters to you. You clearly care about Earthdawn and there are many who clearly appreciate your effort and hard work. That matters. So I wish you good luck.
I never played ED, i dont know whic is it game system, neither rules...nothin about ED. im playing SR since second edition, lacking some of the 1 ed sourcebooks only. I never been very interested with the links between ED and SR beyond "Yes, there are 2 games in the same game world but in diferent ages".End. No more. Of course there are tons of links between them spread in sourcebooks, but i like shadowrun world. Shadowrun is my loved rpg since i got second edition . I play shadowrun not Earthdawn. I dont need to know If Big D was a great dragon in ED or not to run my games. These links arent very useful for my campaigns. I suppose that these links will be used by FanPro folks in the future to decide the fate of shadowruns timeline, but i have enough information to run my games without these links. Ive been playing SR for 12 years only as a Gamemaster, and i didnt use all the plots i have in mind.

Yes, IE, horrors and so on are a very cool source for games, but i never will focus my sessions with them. I used them in Harlequins campaigns and few more sessions. And one of the things that make me happier was when i read in the official FAQ "While FanPro will not ignore these links, we have no intention of making them a primary focus of the game"...i thought "thank you very much. Try to forget those links and concentrate in develope the SR world"

Why im saying this? only to make clear that this thread (and similar ones in the past) arent interesting for my shadowrun world, i use to skip this kind of post...just a quick look and no more. But this one caught my attention (my sceptic attention) and using the equivalence Toturi made few post ago....i see master shake with a pair of 2, and Ancient world with empty hands.

Best regards

P.S:Apologies for my broken english
Well, Master Shake, about your theory on Eletheria Escalanas being the first vampire, there was some time ago a poll in this forum, and 84% of the voters think she is NOT the first vampire.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that because the majority say she isn't, the majority's right. What I am saying is because so much people believe she isn't the first vampire, it isn't so obvious as you may think.

And again, one thing: you said she was experienting about dark magic. In fact, that's the official reason she was banned from the Wood. But you can see it differently. Eletheria and Kethos Escalanas were lovers, and the queen Alachia wanted Kethos, so she could have designed the story about dark magic only to cast Eletheria away.
Captain Picard can kick Captain Kirk's ass.
Neo could take them both without even having to act.

Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Neo could take them both without even having to act.


Good for him, since he can't act.
Bearclaw Posted on Jan 21 2004, 09:00 PM
  Captain Picard can kick Captain Kirk's ass. 

Where the hell were you on all the ProHorror/ProHuman, Threads?

And BTW, a young Krik would beat Picard silly. And an old Kirk has both the advantage of weight and his deadly toupe. I think it would be too close to call.
Picard took out 3 armed klingon assassins in about 3 seconds. Kirk had to fight for about 2 minutes to beat one unarmed one.
Yeah but that Klingon was a "Champion" not like one of the Red Shirts that went on Away Missions and who's last and only line is "Captian, I think I've found som--Arrggggghhhiiii..."

So, how long before one of these things gets locked up?
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 21 2004, 04:15 PM)
Neo could take them both without even having to act.


Good for him, since he can't act.

'Twas my point smile.gif

Jeezus. However soon, it's not soon enough.
Hasta la vista babies...
Deep Blue
I thought Charcoalgrin was a western dragon, not an eastern one...

Also, I've read the Dragon pdf file things (I don't play ED, by the way) but I don't have it in front of me, but where does it say that Vestrivian dies? Goes nuts, sure, but who says he's dead?
QUOTE (Deep Blue)
Also, I've read the Dragon pdf file things (I don't play ED, by the way) but I don't have it in front of me, but where does it say that Vestrivian dies?  Goes nuts, sure, but who says he's dead?

It doesn't. That's from another sourcebook. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to remind us which one, as I'm not sure.
Ancient History
Barsaive at War. Vestrivan flies into a Horror Cloud intent on stopping it, storm stops and shudders for a moment, storm keeps moving. Vestrivan MIA, presumed deceased.
Is that the same Horror Cloud that was fighting over the city you mentioned earloer?
Ancient History
Which city? When did I mention this?
Vivane, and it was someone else that mentioned it, but who said what kinda starts to blur after a while. If it has something to do with Earthdawn, it's usually not a bad bet that you might've said it.

I'm starting to wonder if Master Shake can't be Evan Moore with a new handle?

Would you care to explain who's that one, please?
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Which city?  When did I mention this?

Oh well, I really thought it was you that was talking about the two Horrors fighting over possession of a city.
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Vivane, and it was someone else that mentioned it, but who said what kinda starts to blur after a while. If it has something to do with Earthdawn, it's usually not a bad bet that you might've said it.

Thanks, that was the city in question. it the same 'Horror Cloud'?
Ancient History
Yes, the one that swallowed Vestrivan went on to swallow Vivane.
The one with Admiral Hartmallen himself in it?
Poor Vestrivan.

QUOTE (L.D @ Jan 18 2004, 10:14 AM)
I'm starting to wonder if Master Shake can't be Evan Moore with a new handle?

Would you care to explain who's that one, please?

EvanMoore is a poster since before the last change. He left quite a bit before the change for some reasons that I don't know.

His posts where often long and filled with a really arrogant attitude. Hell I even remember a thread he started just to be able to tell people that they where wrong. Master Shakes posts in the middle of this thread really reminded me of Evan.

You can always go to the old forums and see if the search function is working. smile.gif ... but I wouldn't. wink.gif
To continue about Eletheria being the first Vampire, a quote from James Flowers, line developer of Redbrick (Lou Prosperi, and many of the ancients from FASA work there).

"Note: As a related aside, in the ED Companion, p.48 (p.138 in 2nd Edition), there is an example with a vampire, right down to a clove of garlic as a pattern item: there are no vampires in the FASA published sourcebooks. (Even the LRG vampires are simply Horror constructs: ref. p.108, Barsaive in Chaos.) "
His posts where often long and filled with a really arrogant attitude. Hell I even remember a thread he started just to be able to tell people that they where wrong. Master Shakes posts in the middle of this thread really reminded me of Evan.

Ah, now I see the light. wink.gif

You can always go to the old forums and see if the search function is working. smile.gif ... but I wouldn't. wink.gif

What? Are you implying that the search function was somehow flawed? Heresy! nyahnyah.gif
Dear Shake,

First things first: please, oh pretty please, use shorter paragraphs, a space after you finish each line and the spell-checking function. Also, when making a point, use italics or underline the text instead of SCREAMING LIKE THIS. Your arguments are lost in a sea of reader-unfriendly text.

Second, try to quote the relevant parts of a post, not the entire message. We read those posts once, and we'll go back to them if we need to.

Please take my humble advise and try to use a less offensive and arrogant tone in your posts, as it certainly doesn't help your arguments.

I'd also like to add that you shouldn't skip other people's refutations and requests for canonical references. It looks as if you willingly ignore them because they're right and you don't have evidence. When you do answer them, do not deviate from the point. Be crystal-clear and accurate.

Discussion, my fellow Dumpshocker, is a fine art. Like in negotiations, you don't give or take, you do both. Defend your theories if you have a logical reason to do so, but be prepared to concede when you do not. In other words, don't be a stubborn mule.

That last line also applies to a lot of people out there. wink.gif

Leave the low-blows to politicians, so don't go personal with Ancient History. Before you mock him yet another time, do know that he has all the SR and ED books available in English, and that his website is an outstanding source of lore for gamers out there like us.

Having said all that, I'd also like to add two or three additional cents.

Laughing Man, who is Harlequin (though where does it state that’ Laughing Man’ is Harlequin specifically, or even that Big D is Dunkelzahn?)

Since you're asking so nicely: proof.gif

Big D basically admits being Dunkelzahn in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook, in the last Shadowland post in the book. Short of coming out of the closet and screaming "Yes, it's me! I'm Dunkie!", that's very specific.

Harlequin is identified in the Aztlan sourcebook, page 100:

LADY OF THE COURT: Harl-Laughing Man, is this what you told you witnessed on your journey through the netherworlds involving the Bridge?

By the way, Wordsmyth also admits being Ehran the Scribe in PoaD. Again, no "It's me! I'm Ehran!". That seldom happens in a Shadowrun book.

Nowhere is Eletheria specifically called the 'Queen of the Damned.'

Please, save the Anne Rice references for the right forums. wink.gif

As do the RUMORS of a Dragon being behind Aztlan, and the RUMORS that the Dragon is corrupted, and the RUMORS that Juan is an Immortal.

I'd like to see some page references for the rumors about Juan being immortal, please.

If the claim is that a local Great Feathered is behind Aztlan, a rival of Hualpa, then why doesn't Hualpa recognize the magical signature behind Aztlan?

But Hualpa has no idea who's behind Aztlan.

Excuse me but, where did you find that Hualpa doesn't recognize the magical signature behind Aztlan, or that he's clueless about Aztlan's power behind the throne?

Again, give us some page references and, just in case you bring him up, Jungle Cat is not Hualpa.

I can't post the pictures proving it, but only weak excuses and denials are the basis for your disagreement.

Do not use artwork as evidence for your theories. If I did the same, I'd conclude that among other things...

... All the theories about David Knight being Maj. David Gavilan are false, since the picture in Corporate Download says "Gavilin".

... In fact, Knight and Miles Lanier are the same man! Someone at FASA used one picture for both of them in different books (Target: UCAS and another one that escapes my memory).

... Dwarf sized trolls can wield triple barrelled HMGs with ease. What? Never seen the Cannon Companion cover? wink.gif

... Lone Star cars are shoeboxes. Check the Rigger Black Book.

Always remember that, usually, artwork is the artist's interpretation, not the writer's. Someone also mentioned ED as being unique for using a Meso-American style as opposed to the traditional Western Europe/Far East styles. He's right.


Don't get yourself into more trouble by making claims that you can't back up (...)

That also applies to you. Like many people in DSF, I've spent a lot of my spare time reading this thread and, so far, your theories are no more valid than any other theory I've seen. In fact, you've consistently failed to provide canonical references when asked for (Toturi-san, you still there?), while other people (say, Ancient History) can pinpoint with accuracy the basis for their explanations and theories.

I hope you're not offended by this post, it certainly wasn't my intention to do so.


PS: Sheesh, talk about long posts! talker.gif
Still here, and waiting for my requested references. Thanks for asking, Jong-sama. Domo-Arigato.
Hope you don't mind AH, but I kinda stole this from you.

("Blood Wood @ p.94")


A female elf named Eletheria-purportedly a striking beauty with long black tresses, a ghostly pale complexion and distinctive green eyes-did belong to the Escalanas ranelle in the days before the Scourge.


Some tales claim Eletheria simply broke down from the strain of her work.  Others claim she was experimenting with magic so vile and dangerous that the otehr warders ordered her to quit and leave their midst.  Still others claim that she used herself as the subject of her experiments and unwittingly become corrupted beyond redemption.


After a few months, however, a pattern began to emerge.  All  the victims had been killed in the same manner-their hearts ripped from their bodies and their bodies drained of blood.  The attacks took place on nights when the moon was full and, most inruiging, many of the attacks seemed to coincide with sightings of a pale, Unprotected elf maiden with long black hair and distinctive green eyes.


Some claim that the young elf found a way to keep herself alive with blood magic-hence the condition of her victims.  Still others say that Eletheria became the bride of some vile Horror intent on eventually destorying the Elven Court.  A few tales even claim that the corrupted beasts of the forest are the spawn of this unholy union.

I agree with AH on his explanation that this elf is not the Queen of the Damn.

This is on few levels, the first is because of their matter or their death.

Blood suckers(Vampires), to me at least never really cared about taking hearts.

Essence Drain does not seem to be part of Death Magic/Life Magic/Blood Magic or whatever else names are around. I might be wrong about my understanding on the whole blood magic, however I don't believe essense is sacrified just that physical damage is caused to take away drain so that really strong magics can be fueled.

To me the feel of this elven woman isn't vampiric, it feels more like Witch of the Warhammer World who would bath in blood to keep young.

These aren't exactly the best in speculation(But I read all these posts I felt I should put something down.)

The part about Dunkelzahn having some part in Aztechnology has to deal with his Will he leaves his position in his will.

This is from AH's website[Noticed you, or someone is reworking it. Looks better, that shouldn't be saying much because it absolute ROCKED(sorry about screaming, but it does)]


To Oliver McClure of Quebéc City, I leave my voting stock in Aztechnology and the board seat to which that entitles you. It was refreshing to find such a thoroughly honest man making an adequate living in these times that make such a thing so difficult. I hope that you will prove to be a good influence on the board, and perhaps remind them of the surpassing brightness of the metahuman soul.
[That shocked a lot of people.  McClure has continued to survive assassination and buy-out attempts.  Guess there WAS a dragon on the board.]

I have arrived
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (252)
[...] Witch of the Warhammer World who would bath in blood to keep young.

Also known as Elizabeth Bathory of the Real World.
Have you ever been in a bar or at a party and seen two guys bump into each other? Or one spill a drink on the other? They have their pride, they can't just walk away and pretend like nothing happened even though, nothing happened. Oh, no. They get their backs up and start staring at each other. Throw around a few sneers and a couple of insults so the other realizes that they're tough and not to fuck with them. That's usually about as far as it goes since the goal is to prove you're tough, not to fight over stupid shit like that. But one of the guys always has one of those girlfriends, the type that wish that they were a guy. So the two guys stare at each other just long enough so they can walk away without losing any face, but one of the guys girlfriends jumps in out of nowhere and starts talking trash and getting upset and telling her man to 'kick his ass.' Guys just want to walk away and get back to their drinks, but if there's a chick involved and she’s calling for a fight, if the guy doesn't fight and his chick wants him to, he's a bigger pussy than she is. So then she forces him to take a swing and women have once again ruined another fine not for drinking.

Master posted a long but pretty fucking brilliant post about Earthdawn and Horrors and Aztlan. It's funny because AH's first posts are complimentary toward Master's post. But after a few too many people give Master the 'ata boy,' AH gets his back up. Why? Because Earthdawn is HIS turf and he realizes that he’s not getting enough attention and love. It wasn't Master's post was about Earthdawn that upset him because AH's initial replies on the thread are positive as you can see, but it's his ‘girlfriends’ who egg him on. AH doesn't disagree at first, but he has his Earthdawn pride and so he feels he has to stand up and defend his turf because the chicks are watching him but their eyes are starting to wander toward Master. Can’t have the chicks looking at a new man! So then he starts to get angry and dismissive and insulting toward Master's post. Give Master some credit, even once AH started to mumble and challenge him, he was very courteous in re-explaining in his second post. We know that Master isn't afraid of ripping back, something AH perhaps took for granted from Master’s initial polite posts.

Once AH challenged Master and AH didn't back down or apologize, when after all, Master was just minding his own business and not trolling or looking for a fight and it was AH who took it upon himself to challenge, Master decked AH. It's clear that the substance of Master's points became overshadowed by this cock fight that AH started, which is a shame because the points on this thread, forgetting Master and AH's duel, are pretty fucking brilliant. The Great Pattern and Horrible Pattern, the metaphysics and the Horrors and Aztlan is some great shit. Because of the bitches that AH felt he had to impress, he got himself in a fight he didn't want, just look at his initial posts. And couldn’t win, just look at Masters recent posts. So he got a little carried away and then Master laid a couple of haymakers on him and that was it. Master had enough respect for AH to just walk away after the point it became clear that the beatings that AH were taking were getting embarrassing. So Master walked away and AH picked himself up and had enough decency to walk away as well. Guys want to get back to their drinks, this shit doesn’t matter. This kind of strutting and fighting goes on all the time.

But again, it's ALWAYS the bitches who want this to get personal, get out of hand and get ugly. That got ugly enough to obscure a really interesting and unique discussion about Earthdawn and Shadowrun. No matter what you think about Master or AH, it's clear that they both have a high familiarity with Earthdawn. Master's claims to only 'skim' through the books is clearly him being humble and leaving an opening for rational disagreement and not claiming that he knows EVERYTHING about Earthdawn. Master and AH know what each other are talking about, though Master is clearly more calculating in his approach and his claims. No matter how convincing you find Master’s or AH’s arguments, they’re understanding of Earthdawn is on another level that I, and nearly everyone else can’t follow first hand. They were arguing above our understanding, but they understood what the hell they were talking about. They don't have to provide page numbers, etc because they know the fucking material. They know the books, they know Aztlan or Earthdawn Companion or the Blood Wood and they know what each other are referring to when they're talking about those books. This is their chicken fight so of course neither of them are paying attention to the whiney bitches on the sidelines who can’t follow and demand to be let in on their expertise of this dumb game. They're going at it and neither of them uses quotes, they both paraphrase from the books because they both know the books and understand what they say. Though Master used some quotes quite effectively to clock AH a few times. The quotes about Creana and Great Pattern come to mind in his counterattacks to AH's aggression. I’m not an expert like they are, but even I can follow the punches and see who’s laying on the canvas. I obviously follow this board more closely than Master Shake does and so I’m familiar with AH and know that he is knowledgeable about Earthdawn and is pretty reliable. He just got a little carried away, and put his dick in a meat grinder, that’s all.

Why can't chicks ever tell when the fight is over? Master and AH have walked away to get back to their drinks while you're yelling 'fight,' after your man has already gotten his ass handed to him. That's no big deal, stuff happens all the time and you live to fight another day. But the fight is over and you're not doing anyone any good, especially your boyfriend, by trying to restart this. Don't be a whiny bitch and if you want to know the specifics of what Master and AH were referring to, why don't you get those books and do a little research and find out for yourself. They certainly have, and they're under no obligation to give you lessons in Earthdawn or Shadowrun when you can do the work yourself. After watching what they've talked about, I've done some research of my own and I think that Master is right from what I've seen. The metaphysics seem right and Eletheria does seem to be the first vampire and all that stuff about Aztlan seems to fit. I’ve even taken a look at the Parlainth boxed set and the pyramids are uncanny, as well as the sacrifical ‘mural’ on the cover of one of the books which looks just like Aztlan blood sacrifice art. Even Ehren saying about Juan on pg 61 of Aztlan: 'He is a man of great power, mystic power. I would have taken him for one of us, but to all cursory examinations he appears simply human. Inexplicable.' The 'us' he refers to are Immortals like the Elves and dragons, yet he nor Hualpa can pierce his aura and Juan is human as far as anyone knows. Thus, Human Immortal as Master said. Look it up for yourself and stop being such a baby.

'Jungle Cat' is clearly Hualpa and I have no idea how you could conclude otherwise. You have all the major Immortal players present in Aztlan all brought together by Dunkie to discuss the Horrors and the end of the world. There is one rep from Amazonia who clearly is the major power in that country with the most knowledge of Aztlan and its powers. From each power group including independents. 'Big D' is Dunkie, 'Laughing Man' is Harley an indy, Ehren is 'Worsmyth' and represents Tir Tairngire, 'Hecate' is Aina an indy, 'Umsondo' is Mujaji (this is the weakest because almost nothing exists in Shadowrun about Africa or Mujaji but it fits the best but a dark horse candidate for ‘Umsondo’ would be Moleskin, the basically omniscient Dragon behind the Catholic Church who would be pompous like Umsondo is) representing Africa's awakened, Lady of the Court is Lady Brain Deigh from Tir Na Nog. Everything Master says does seem to fit and since he appears to have left the board, I doubt he'll be answering any questions, particularly those designed to start up another fight. He beat up your boy already, why do you want to start another fight? Chill out. But hey, this is just a fucking game anyway.

It would be a shame if this thread faded away because of some stupid, bitch induced cock fight for Alpha Nerd of the board scared people away. Master's posts were awesome and even AH's replies were interesting. This is a really high quality thread and the discussion about Earthdawn Metaphysics and Horrors and Aztlan should continue, this time without fights, or jerks trying to start new fights.

It doesn't have to be Hualpa(Did I spell that right) anyways Lugh Surehand is not a poster(Makes you wonder.) This jungle cat could just be one of the high powers in Amozonia, I have never had many people say that this Jungle Cat was a Dragon. On the other side, I will openly admit that this can't be Hualpa or any other dragon for that matter. I just don't know, cat and dragon don't seem to go together and ussually there is some inkling of truth in the name.

Laughing Man, clowns laugh and Harlequins are a type of clown.

Wordsmyth, to me it means a writer, perhaps a good writter. Ehran the Scribe I believe has won a few awards for his books he has written.

Big D, a name that is long with a D in it, or a person who is big and has a D in it. Dunkelzahn fits both in some ways.

Orange Queen, has to do with a jingle that makes you get the name.

Hopefully you see where I'm going. But I need not be write.
I'd be more impressed if they didn't have to swap out names to support themselves in an argument.

Ancient History
In my defense, Euiscerati, I did apologize for my initial posts being overly-critical...but Master Shake was never polite in reply.
'Jungle Cat' is clearly Hualpa and I have no idea how you could conclude otherwise. You have all the major Immortal players present in Aztlan all brought together by Dunkie to discuss the Horrors and the end of the world. There is one rep from Amazonia who clearly is the major power in that country with the most knowledge of Aztlan and its powers.

Maybe, just maybe, it is because in the Aztlan sourcebook he admits being an Awakened Jaguar, a.k.a. shapeshifter? Maybe it is because he doesn't have a full knowledge of the 4th World as a Great Dragon like Hualpa should?

I won't trash your statement, so please, give me your evidence about Jungle Cat being Hualpa and I might reconsider my position. And yes, I want page references. Otherwise, your claim is no more valid than my little theory about Spes being Lofwyr: just a hunch.

'Hecate' is Aina an indy

This has been argued ad nauseam. Most people agree that Hecate can be one of the following three elves: Aina Sluage/Dupree, Alachia/Sosan Naerain or Sheila Blatavska.

Until I get Threats and I'm able to check out the Atlantean Foundation, my opinion favors Alachia.

'Umsondo' is Mujaji

Don't think so. Umsonde looks more like a Zulu elf, who have a certainly rivalry with Mujaji. By the way, that would explain a certain post by Umsondo, talking about the Rain Queen (Aztlan SB, I'm sorry but I don't have the book at hand at the moment, so I can't give you a page reference).

Everything Master says does seem to fit and since he appears to have left the board, I doubt he'll be answering any questions, particularly those designed to start up another fight. He beat up your boy already, why do you want to start another fight? Chill out. But hey, this is just a fucking game anyway.

I just quoted this paragraph, but I could've quoted entire sections of your kilometric paragraphs (ar you sure you aren't related to Shake? wink.gif).

My first reaction to your post was to think that you're just trolling us all, using the same offensive language as Master Shake. You slam us like we were zealots of the Church of Ancient History, but in turn, you make yourself look like a Master Shake groupie.

I thought about disregarding your entire post, but instead, let me give you a very useful link, straight out of BitBasher's sig. Don't you think that some people here have committed some of the listed fallacies?

Pleae, don't come to us with the "Master Shake and AH are über-gods of canon and don't need to support their theories with hard evidence" speech. They are gamers, just like you, me and the other people who post here. Even the most brilliant scientists have to back up their research with empyrical evidence for their peers. I think that asking for some canon references is just the bare minimum we can do.

One last thing: What's up with the language? Can't you post a line without cursing or mocking someone? We all try to be polite to each other (with various degrees of success, I might add wink.gif), but you make yourself look like someone out of a bad imitation of Reservoir Dogs.

Just to be clear: I'm no AH zealot. I consider him a cool guy and I look forward to meet him in the meat body some day, same like with many other cool people I've met here. But I'm far from being someone who takes his word as gospel. Heck, I like to yank his chain from time to time (AH, remember li'l Ramos the Latin Lover? devil.gif )

The first time I saw the thread, I thought Master Shake had a very good theory and proceeded to carry on with my biz. End of story. But after a while, I heard that there was some kind of a rumble, so I checked out: Big flame war, almost like in the good ol' Lounge.

I didn't intervene then. Why? First, I don't have that much time. Second, AH is a grown up and can take care of himself. Third, there's plenty of people who know him better than I do, surely they would jump to his defense if needed.

When I did post, it wasn't to flame someone. No sir, when I hit someone I like to do so with some solid backup. No troll bouncers that time, just a razor sharp post that went to the point. You however, chose to carry on with Mr. Shake's style, ignoring other people and wrapping yourself in a holier-than-thou mantle when posting. I'm sorry, but I believe that's not the way things work in these Forums.

Play nice,

extinguish.gif JongWK extinguish.gif
QUOTE (Siege)
I'd be more impressed if they didn't have to swap out names to support themselves in an argument.


Such a self serving post by euiscerati just detracts totally from anything he wrote as Master Shake.
Playing Games
I always thought HMHVV,was an awakened/mutated form of AIDS.
All very interesting stuff...I admit to not reading T:AL or Parlainth yet [being a player can suck a bit - only just ran through brainscan and currently involved with some Immortal rose BS in our ED campaign - respective GMs are limiting access to "future" SBs for obvious reasons] but I have to say I'm pretty much behind MS on this one. The ideas are well thought out and argued, and fit the facts as far as I'm aware anyway.

On Obsidimen/T'skrang/windlings - well I prefer to think that they are perhaps "awakened" from races other than human, which the other name-giver races all seem to be derived from. Obsidemen went back to their liferocks and start hibernating again or else die and just become big rocks wherever they happen to fall down, perhaps an in-game alternative explanation for moraine deposits from glaciers? When magic reaches a certain point obsidimen will re-emerge. T'skrang - awakened intelligent lizards, anyone? Just haven't seen them yet. Remember we're only 50 years into a 4000 year cycle, and whilst I accept magic may be on a sharper gradient this time around, remember the spikes are only in certain locations [eg. GGD]. As for Mike Mulvihill's assertion that they all just "died". Well that's a pretty lame statement, to be expected from a man who was quite determined to kill off the ED/SR links. No real effort or thought went into that particular gem. And also as it's never been written in a sourcebook, and MM has subsequently lost responsibility for developing SR, let's hope it's not accurate either.

So onto other questions I have regarding ED/SR:

What was Harlequin up to in the 4th age? I gather he was involved with the lightbearers, and imagine he was opposed to both Thera and Blood Wood, come to think of it probably opposed to every ED conspiracy/power broker I can think of. Was he even in Barsaive? What accomplishments of note did he achieve? For that matter, what about Ehran?

Maybe Juan Atzcapotzalco is the dragon behind Aztechnology? Would explain why two extraordinarily powerful mages would fail in assessensing him. Though I admit aura intersection would perhaps be the fly in this particular theory's ointment. Dunkelzahn being behind the Azzies is about the most ludicrous thing I can conceive. I'm not going to get too into it, but basing this on the fact that he had some shares [even enough to get a seat on the board] is just a little too far-fetched. From this we can also conclude that he must also be behind Renraku. Yes? And Ares? All of them? Involved perhaps, to one extent or another. In charge of? No. It's perfectly conceivable that an inordinately wealthy individual, particularly one who likes to have a finger in every pie, would have interests in these companies. Along with a few other guys just like him - Ryumyo, Lofwyr for a start. Is there anything in Dunkelzahn's background that suggests he may be a horror marked/corrupted great dragon, who is determined to get the boys back in town as quickly as possible? If there is I'd genuinely love to hear it, honestly, but it'll need to be good to convince me.

On Juan, my particular favourite is the idea that he is, as it says in the book, after all just a puppet. Other spellcasters [eg. a corrupted dragon, Oscuro, or the Bloodmage Gestalt] may use some advanced metamagic form of masking to make him look incredibly powerful to the likes of Ehran and Hualpa, or perhaps this powerful aura is just a side-effect of the masking being used to stop him being read for truth/lies/emotion etc, or alternatively, he is possessed by some incredibly powerful free [blood] spirit [perhaps even a horror], confusing the readings of the above-mentioned.

Anyone up for throwing the Black Lodge/Denairastas Clan links football around? A shadowy immortal human spellcaster leading a group with links all the way back through history eg. the Knights-Templar. I'm sold!! I admit to being no expert on Denairastas but, my gut tells me this stands a fair chance of someone else [i.e. AH or MS] being able to prove it or convince me who else it could be.

Anyone read Ragnarok? What happens to Winternight in there? I assume from the title that they're involved.

I have some more questions, I'm sure, but it's 2am and I'm off to bed to prepare for an extended SR fuck-fest tomorrow. We just tried to screw over CAT, by revealing their shady attempt to hire us to run on an Ares secure compound to our Ares Johnson contact, but it seems the whole thing seems a bit to sensitive for even our johnson to know about. Just found him with a smoking hole in his head, with about 200 kg of fuel-air rigged to go off any second now right next to him. To make matters worse a fleet of Ares marked Citymasters just pulled up outside and I'm sure I can hear the distinctive whine of a guardian drone or ten warming up. And if we escape we'll have a bunch of Seraphim to deal with, no doubt peeved at our pathetic attempts to slip one in their ass. Should be fun.

[edited for spelling and clarity]
My honest-to-gosh serious two nuyen.gif.

Aztlan?...Pfft. Small problem. It's YAMATETSU behind all this. I insist.
QUOTE (Trickster)

On Obsidimen ... Obsidemen went back to their liferocks and start hibernating again <snip>

As I think someone pointed out here several years ago, Liferocks and Obsidimen could basically be considered normal rocks with lots of interesting minerals during a down-mana-age, and boy we've strip-mined a lot of things haven't we. Which makes a good gamexcuse for Mikes statement that they wont be back. In some ways a pity, but then they might not really suit the technological nature of SR.

I think the same post went on about the IE's hunting the T'skrang to extinction during the down cycle as well as a posibility. After all, some were hunting Dragons.
I don't think the T'skrang are big enough (cool enough) to actually hibernate during the downturn in mana cycles.

By comparison, Dunkle makes a claim of being thousands of years old.

Page 130 of Aztlan:

'...or a fragging Awakened Jaguar looking for lunch.'

Hecate- What is an Awakened Jaguar?
Jungle Cat- That would be me.
Laughing Man - <chuckle>
UMSONDO- And he is hardly alone
Laughing man- Ah, our leonine friends. Perhaps I should take a closer interest in such matters.
UMSONDO- Perhaps you should.

Jungle Cat is clearly making a joke which is why Harlequin laughs. They're referring to a post about the dangers of the southern Amazonian border. What our 'leonine friends' refers to is mysterious though it's clear from the tone that's it's probably meant tongue-in-cheek because it begins with a joke. Unless Umsondo is a magical lion and Jungle Cat is a magical jaguar which doesn't make any sense. Dunkelzahn is bringing together the heavy hitters to discuss the dangers of the Horrors and Aztlan. He's brought top players from various groups, so why would he invite some shape shifters to share these dark secrets? Jungle Cat is clearly high in the structure of Amazonia. Hualpa is the head of Amazonia and so it makes sense that when bringing together Amazonia, that Dunkie would invite Hualpa. Why would he invite someone lesser and not Hualpa? Iit makes sense that it would be Hualpa.

On page 172, Laughing Man mentions 'the Compact! ?The Grand Deal! The "If We Don't Stop Yelling At Each Other We'll All Be Dead" Agreement!' Then Jungle Cat Says 'I never signed it.' Then UMSONDO says 'Nor did I.' Then Harlequin says 'No one ever needed you to, Watcher (UMSONDO).' This is in response to Hecate (Aina) getting bitchy and calling the worriers cowards and Jungle cat gets all upset at Hecate and says 'Bitch, she has no right to be speaking with us.' 'Us?' Clearly this is an elite group of immortals who're all aware of the Horrors from before and agreed to fight them, though Jungle Cat and UMSONDO didn't sign but are outsiders. Perhaps because the 'Compact' was Barsaive regional and UMSONDO and Jungle Cat were elsewhere. It's clear that these players are all equals, they're not just some shape shifter who changed and found themselves in the highest circles of dark secrets.

On page 12 of Aztlan Jungle Cat whines about being 'forever surrounded by juveniles' in regards to Hecate and Lady of the Court bitching to each other. He's an old power who's clearly at the top of Amazonia and he knows about the Amazonian Locus and mentions their rituals not being those Great Rituals (forbidden? dangerous?) on page 114. He knows about the Blood Magic Amazonians are using to fuel their nation and the ancient rituals and gets upset when Laughing Man takes a shot of his use of blood magic on page 23:
JC- ...we do not carve the hearts out of our brethren to power our arts.
LM- Much...
JC- Not funny.

Clearly the equal of Ehren, Harlequin, Dunkelzahn, et al. Nobody takes shots at him for his being young or unworthy of the company the way Hecate does at Lady of the Court at the very beginning of the discussion. At the top of Amazonia, familiar with the blood magic they use, hates Aztlan, is important enough that Dunkelzahn wants his help. Sounds like Hualpa to me, that was always my impression when reading it.

UMSONDO is more difficult to place. 'It' is clearly a taciturn Immortal worthy of respect and the company who speaks with zen-like simplicity and 'wisdom.' 'It' is called the 'Watcher' because clearly this is an ancient, wise observer, not an active participant in all this jazz like Dunkelzahn or Harelquin are. Maybe UMSONDO and Jungle Cat aren't dragons, but if not they must be Immortal Elves but I'm not aware of any specifics on who they could be. UMSONDO is the most mysterious because there isn't a clear connection but hints of Africa. FASA really hasn't gone out of their way to develop this since JC or UMSONDO appear in no other Shadowrun books as far as I know. Lady Brain Deigh being Lady of the Court makes sense because she is young and unworthy which is why Hecate goes after her, but she is the head of a powerful IE nation. Hecate being Aina also makes sense because of her Horror confections and apathy and Dunkelzahn goes out of his way to reach out to her in his will. So it would make sense that she is Hecate, whom Dunkelzahn reaches out to in Aztlan and she is arrogant and dismissive and needs the hope he offers her in his will. Ehren being Worsmyth seems obvious to all, same with Big D and Laughing Man. I think that's all. Hey, I for one love the Horrors stuff in Shadowrun, it really fleshes out the game and gives it a deep, dark background. I wish there was more stuff like the secret conclave in 'Aztlan.' But since the FASA and now FanPro folks don't seem to agree with me, I think these will remain mysteries.
I don't even know what you guys are talking about, Go Humans!

And a hearty "Good Job" to all involved. I like Shake's theories, but I can't refute AH's.

More importantly, I see no evidence that "whats-her-nuts" was the first vampire...
QUOTE (Siege)
I don't think the T'skrang are big enough (cool enough) to actually hibernate during the downturn in mana cycles.

Who said anything about them hibernating? Elves, Dwarves, Orks and Trolls didn't. They just stopped being born - ie. the "metahuman" gene was un-awakened during the down-slope of magic. Same thing is highly likely for T'skrang...instead of bright-blue morrissey-quiffed sons and daughters emerging from those eggs, it could very well be baby crocodiles or baby eels or lizards perhaps. Down-cycle T'skrang hunting is a stretch too far for me. Why would they bother? IEs would clearly know the difference between a T'skrang and a dragon, even T'skrang and baby dragons, and I struggle to think of any valid reason the elves would have for exterminating them. Dragons are a threat to their supremacy, T'skrang certainly are not. Besides as I said above, I just don't think they were around to be hunted during down-cycle. Who says humans are the only race that can awaken, walk around and name-give?

Good point on the obsidimen, actually I vaguely recall that very point being brought up...we have done a lot of resource-grabbing, I accept, but to the extinction of the obsidiman race? No way. There are many locations on the planet, which for one reason or another [extreme climate, altitude and so on] are untouched by mining, and would also be prime locations for liferocks. Fair enough, MM doesn't want them in the game. There are better reasons, for instance: "The cycle of magic hasn't reached a high enough level to re-animate them, and I don't envision the timeline of SR ever being advanced enough to see Obsidimen as PCs. Sorry." To dismiss them out of hand was typical of the callous disdain he had for the SR/ED direction that Tom Dowd had taken the product in. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But such treatment of a part of the game that many players [and non-players, eg. master shake] were huge fans of, even if they chose not to use them, was pretty poor form. Old ground I know, and I've had these fights before, years ago here and on the old deep resonance, but I'm glad the newer products [apparently] are bringing the links back in

On SR/ED links: anyone actively use these in their campaigns? I fondly remember playing through Harlequin's back about 6 years ago, and getting involved with the Atlantean Foundation, Aztechnology, Assets Inc, the Tirs and the Ordo Maximus in a pretty epic campaign. Foiling the Azzies who had discovered a Kaer under the rocky mountains on behalf of the AF was a particular favourite. Also attempting to assassinate Oscuro after the Draco foundation offered us nuyen.gif 100,000,000 with some of us refusing the money, just 'cos killing him was for the greater good. Crazed ex-playercharacters driven mad by the knowledge they had and trying to summon horrors as ally spirits, necessitating a HB style astral-quest to prevent it going down. Amazing.
@Trickster. For some reason I was under the impression that the T'skrang considered the elves to be nice eating, which would be reason enough in my book.

@Euiscerati. You may be making assumptions that "leonine friends" is refering to cat like friends in some manner, and whilst this could be true I should point out that it could be a coruption on "leonine partnership", which is: one in which partner bears losses but receives no profits

The other assumption is that all the dragons could get net access, thus whilst Hualpa could be Jungle Cat, it is just as likely that Jungle Cat is a servant/voice of Hualpa accessing the net on Hualpa's behalf, and if a "jaguar shapeshifter/awakened Jaguar/Jaguar shaman" would meet just about every hint I know of, including Laughing Man's comment.

@kevyn668. I think you're right about "whats-her-nuts". There's one key piece missing that I feel sure would be in any vampire legends, and that is the dead should rise. In fact the only vampire story I can think of it missing from is Vlad the impaler himself. (Which isn't even a real vampire story)
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