I fail to see how Lord of the Rings is racist.
The Southrons are from the south, near the equator.
Hence, they will be darker skinned then the northern peoples.
And Tolkien even questions if they are really evil, just not conscripted. The only ones that are really evil are the Corsairs of Umbar. I would also like to call your attention to the fact that all the Ringwraiths were probably whites.
Understand what your talking about, Senor.
Full Version: The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn
Oh yes, because the man whose novel was never published in [edit: Third Reich] Germany because he refused on principle to sign a document certifying that he had no Jewish ancestry even though there's absolutely no evidence that he had any such ancestry is so racist. 
British Supremacist, yes. Racist, I think not.
~J
British Supremacist, yes. Racist, I think not.
~J
I almost feel bad for someone attacking Tolkein around here...
Duck and cover.
Duck and cover.
Just like that goddamn petition to force New Line (or whoever produced the movies) to change the name of LoTR - The Two Towers, because it was clearly an attempt to capitalize on September 11th.
Everyone who signed that should be caned.
Everyone who signed that should be caned.
| QUOTE (Req) |
| Just like that goddamn petition to force New Line (or whoever produced the movies) to change the name of LoTR - The Two Towers, because it was clearly an attempt to capitalize on September 11th. Everyone who signed that should be caned. |
Everyone who signed that should be shot in order to remove thier stupidity from the gene pool.
I've always found the Lord Of The Rings - September 11th links amusing, given that the heroes of LotR are a small group of underfed, underfunded, outgunned rebels with a small secret weapon. They engage in guerilla tactics, follow a cryptic benefactor who seems to be everywhere at once and persevere because they believe their cause is righteous.
Meanwhile, their opponent is a technologically-minded, heavily mechanized military force of vastly superior numbers which operates out of two towers--towers which ultimately fall not because they're razed by an invading army, but rather because of the aforementioned small secret weapon.
Granted, any parallels are anachronistic, self-serving and ultimately amount to intellectual wankery, but it killed ten minutes.
Meanwhile, their opponent is a technologically-minded, heavily mechanized military force of vastly superior numbers which operates out of two towers--towers which ultimately fall not because they're razed by an invading army, but rather because of the aforementioned small secret weapon.
Granted, any parallels are anachronistic, self-serving and ultimately amount to intellectual wankery, but it killed ten minutes.
Didn't the two towers refer to Barad-Dur and Minas Tirith rather than Barad-Dur and Minas Morgul?
Hm. Or come to think of it, was Orthanc one of them? Aiee! I'm getting confused!
~J
Hm. Or come to think of it, was Orthanc one of them? Aiee! I'm getting confused!
~J
Yup, it's Barad-Dur and Minas Tirith. When Faramir captures Frodo in the book, he says something along the lines of "None are in this land save by the grace of one of the Two Towers, and you don't look like a servant of the White Tower." Or something like that.
But this gets debated ad nauseum by hardcore LoTR fans.
But this gets debated ad nauseum by hardcore LoTR fans.
According to the Ballantine Books printing of Fellowship of the Ring:
| QUOTE |
| The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul[...] |
I always thought the Two Towers were Barad-dur and Orthanc. NOT Minas-Tirith (Home to the ruling seat of Gondor) or Minas Morgul (Home to the Witch-King of the Nazgul).
Ya know, because Saruman says "....now there is a union between the two towers of Isengard and Mordor..."
emphasis mine.
Ya know, because Saruman says "....now there is a union between the two towers of Isengard and Mordor..."
emphasis mine.
Right, Saruman says that in the movies. Does he say that in the books? I don't think so, but then I don't remember.
You can't judge that much from the movies' dialogue, really.
You can't judge that much from the movies' dialogue, really.
Tolkein said in an interview that which two towers it is is deliberately vague. Hell, he didn't even want to have to split up the story into three volumes, and hated the title for the third one (spoilers in the title!).
Getting the thread back on topic.
| QUOTE |
| Shake: Better! But I still feel you're wrong about the vampire-chick and really wrong about Teotihuacan. I mean, your basic argument is that Parlainth has pyramids therefore it must have been transported across the Atlantic to Central America. Has it perhaps not occurred that Creana has pyramids that could have proved the inspiration for Parlainth's? |
Ancient History, I think you are tying to simplify Shake's theory a bit too much. Shake's argument is more then Teotihuacán and Parlainth both have pyramids. One of Shake's argument revolved around the pyramids and that the images of the architecture presented in the Parlainth boxed set (which Shakes adds is the only Earthdawn sourcebook that has many images of the local architecture at all) look very much like the sorts of pictures you would see in a typical, real life, travel brochure for Teotihuacán. Even through I have not had the chance to read the Parlainth boxed set, what I have seen of Parlainth (notably the color plates in the 1st Ed sourcebook) reminded me very much of Central American architecture as well, and this was before I knew of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun connection.
Yes, pyramids do occur throughout the world (not just Egypt and Central America). However, the style of the pyramids in the Americas (including how they were built) is very distinct. I doubt many would confuse the pyramids in Central America with those of Egypt, India, South East Asia, or Samaria and Babylonia (though Sumerian and Babylonian might be the most similar).
But the pyramids are not the only thing Shake is basing his theory on. To sum up, this is what I read in the posts:
1) No lost city or ruins even remotely similar to Parlainth have been found in Russia let alone any in that area. Thus Parlainth must have moved sometime between the time frame Earthdawn takes place, and the recorded history of the region in the 5th age.
2) Target: Awakened Lands (a book I have not yet read either, so I am going by what Shake has written) states that Teotihuacán was found whole and abandoned by the early Aztecs. I do not know if this matches real life legend, but I think I remember hearing something similar. Teotihuacán is the only city explicitly stated in any Shadorun sources books thus far said to have been found whole and intact by its initial inhabitants.
Parlainth is known to have moved once before and, as of the Eathdawn timeframe, still pretty much abandoned. Again, since there are no records of the city or city like it existing in that area, it must have either been raised to the ground or moved.
3) The Aztecs practice a form of blood and death magic that should not be known by anyone else in the 5th or 6th worlds. In addition, the Aztecs of the 6th world are supposed to be performing certain forms of draconic magic that is very beneficial to the Horrors. The question arises of how they got that information (Of course I could get all Joseph Campbell and explain how animal and human sacrifice appears in all early agricultural religions and that those of the Aztecs are just another variation on that theme, but that might be injecting a bit too much reality and sensibility into the Shadowrun world).
4) Parlainth employed magic to both transport itself and cause all memories and records of its existence to disappear. There have been no mentions of its existence by the Dragons or Immortal Elves of the 6th world, even it had reappeared in by the time Earthdawn takes place. A possible indication that the movement and transportation magic that was used once before had been used again? Admittedly this argument is pretty flimsy, since the Dragons and Immortal Elves have not talked about everything yet, but you would think a city with as much centering around it as Parlainth would have at least gotten some sort of footnote by now.
5) Unknown (possibly corrupted) Dragon or Immortal Elf in charge of Aztlan. Chasrcoalgrin (a possibly corrupted) Dragon who resided in Parlainth. By itself this would be pretty think evidence, but it does not stand by itself.
6) Juan Atzcapotzalco, a powerful and immortal mage with mysterious origins being kept around and preserved by Aztecnology for some reason.
Erypimese, a powerful and immortal mage who disappeared during the Scourge being sough out by Chasrcoalgrin.
Ancient History, I do not see what your issues are with the theory that Shake puts forth or any evidence against it, and in all honesty, I do not see your statements so far on this subjecting being particularly objective. The only things I have seen say at this point about Shake's theory is "it is not what happened", that the theory is completely unfounded, even though Shake has presented what cannon sources are being used, and that Shake is "really wrong about Teotihuacan" without actually supplying any solid reasoning why you feel this way nor references that counter the theory. The most you have supplied for your reasoning for why you are against what Shake proposed happened to Parlainth or where Teotihuacán came from is that it has not been in any sourcebook. This is a pretty weak argument, in my option. I think there are other commonly accepted theories about certain Earthdawn/Shadowrun connections that have not yet been positively conformed, such as Thera being Altantis (I could be wrong about this, since I have not read all the Shadowrun Sourcebooks, since so many are now out of print). Lack of an acknowledged personality coming out and stating this is or is not so is not enough. That would be like saying the ruins at Hisarlik, Canakkale cannot be the ruins of the City of Troy since there is no big wooden horse there or a sign that says "Welcome to Troy".
As far as I can tell, Shake is not suggesting that Parlainth only recently moved to Central Mexico or that it was built Cental Mexico and then went to Creana and then moved back, but that it moved from the Barsaive/Creana/ Ukraine, where it was founded and built, sometime time at the end of the 4th Age or beginning of the 5th. This would have been about 1,000 BCE, if the Ages are 3,000 years, or earlier, if the move occurred before the end of the 4th Age. This would have predated the rise of the Maya, whose civilization flourished from around 250 CE till about 900 CE, about 400 years before the Aztec settled Teotihuacán. Thus putting to bed your statement that blood magic was being practiced in Central and South America before the time frame Shake is suggesting, since there were no civilizations there to be practicing it, unless you are saying the Dragons PDF and the Vivane Boxed set are suggesting there were civilizations that predate Maya in that region.
After Parlainth moved, it could have influenced the architecture and magical practices of Mexico, the Yucatan Peninsula, and Central and South America.
Yes, the architecture of Parlainth could likely be Theran, which would have also gone one to influence Sumerian and Babylonian architecture in the 5th world if that were the case, but it is just as likely that Parlainth had its own distinct style as well. Boston, New York, and Washington, DC, are all East Coast cities, founded close to each other in terms of location, founding culture, and time frame, yet each of those still very unique. Just look at the differences between Rome, which has a more natural city growth, and those cities founded by the Roman Empire, which were planed out, or even the differences between the cities themselves. To say that Parlainth's architecture must completely mimic that of Thera's would be, in my opinion, ridiculous in the extreme, given the distances between the two, the dates of the two cities founding, and the differences in materials used or indigenous cultures of the regions, just to name a few factors.
| QUOTE |
| Don't forget that at the Destruction of Thera at the end of the Fouth World, the Theran's spread out all over the globe (ref Threats, Atlantean Conspiracy). Even alowing for Lone Gunman's tendency to jump to conclusions, I think this is likely. If the mana levels were getting low, perhaps the desperate refugee Therans used death magic to help them gain some power in Central America, thus starting the sacrifice tradition as well as bringing the Parlainth architectural style which was considered berfore the Scourge to be very swanky by the Theran's (ref Parlainth Box Set). |
That might be an idea, but how about this and would make a little more sense considering the rise of the Mayans before the Aztecs, but how about this for an idea:
Sometime before the end of the 4th Age Parlainth again disappears and ends up in Central Mexico, there to languish abandoned and forgotten.
End of the 4th Age/Beginning of the 5th, the City of Thera, falls, spawning the legend of Atlantis. Survivors scatter to the four winds, some settling in Egypt and the Middle East. Other travel further west, across the Atlantic, eventually finding their way to the Yucatan. There they found the Mayan Civilization. Or, and I think more likely scenario, Sages (or Loremasters?) headed out near the end of the 4th Age to set up a site where the knowledge of the 4th age could kept for safe keeping. Their descendants would eventually become the Maya (considering we have a good 1,000 years between the end of the 4th age and the rise of the Maya). After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the remains of the city of Parlainth were discovered, became Teotihuacán, and the Aztecs rose to power in the region.
Just my 2 cents
sable
As a side note, I think I remember watching on a TLC special the layout of the pyramids in Teotihuacán (I think that was Teotihuacán) happen to be aligned to exactly mimic, on the ground, constellation layout that occurs once every 12 thousand years or so. It is also one of the handful of sites around the world which have share this layout. To up the weirdness factor even further, the stellar alignment in question is supposed to occur sometime around 2012. If this were so then it would marking the beginning of the 2nd (Age of Dragons) and 6th (Age of Humans(?)) ages.
Okay, point by point:
| QUOTE |
| Even through I have not had the chance to read the Parlainth boxed set, what I have seen of Parlainth (notably the color plates in the 1st Ed sourcebook) reminded me very much of Central American architecture as well, and this was before I knew of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun connection. |
Parlainth is a mish-mash of architectural styles, and it would be ridiculous to try and count what was derived from which culture. Let's just say until I see maps of Teotihuacan that match the ones in the Parlainth book, I'm not convinced.
| QUOTE |
| Yes, pyramids do occur throughout the world (not just Egypt and Central America). However, the style of the pyramids in the Americas (including how they were built) is very distinct. I doubt many would confuse the pyramids in Central America with those of Egypt, India, South East Asia, or Samaria and Babylonia (though Sumerian and Babylonian might be the most similar). |
You'd be surprised, but I'll give you this one as the pictures in the ED 1st edition Main book are easily taken for Mesoamerican at a glance.
| QUOTE |
| 1) No lost city or ruins even remotely similar to Parlainth have been found in Russia let alone any in that area. Thus Parlainth must have moved sometime between the time frame Earthdawn takes place, and the recorded history of the region in the 5th age. |
Lack of proof does not constitute proof. There are any number of ED cities which have yet to be located, not just the one that made a little jaunt into the metaplanes. Pluss, let us refer to the area as the Ukraine, and not RUssia proper, hmm? We're not talking the oniondomes of Moscow here.
| QUOTE |
| 2) Target: Awakened Lands (a book I have not yet read either, so I am going by what Shake has written) states that Teotihuacán was found whole and abandoned by the early Aztecs. I do not know if this matches real life legend, but I think I remember hearing something similar. Teotihuacán is the only city explicitly stated in any Shadorun sources books thus far said to have been found whole and intact by its initial inhabitants. |
THis is from real life, nobody knows for sure who built Teotihuacan, though the Toltecs are favored. As for the latter sentance, go re-read the citadel discovered in Australia earlier in the book.
| QUOTE |
| Parlainth is known to have moved once before and, as of the Eathdawn timeframe, still pretty much abandoned. Again, since there are no records of the city or city like it existing in that area, it must have either been raised to the ground or moved. |
The city originally slipped into a small metaplane or large astral pocket, and never moved "physically." It came back right where it used to. There IS precedent for a moving city, but Parlainth ain't it.
| QUOTE |
| 3) The Aztecs practice a form of blood and death magic that should not be known by anyone else in the 5th or 6th worlds. In addition, the Aztecs of the 6th world are supposed to be performing certain forms of draconic magic that is very beneficial to the Horrors. The question arises of how they got that information (Of course I could get all Joseph Campbell and explain how animal and human sacrifice appears in all early agricultural religions and that those of the Aztecs are just another variation on that theme, but that might be injecting a bit too much reality and sensibility into the Shadowrun world). |
Go read the Dragons.pdf Feathereed serpents battling over life magic and death magic (especially teaching iot to cultists and the like) ever since the Age of LEgend. I'm not sure what draconic magic you're talking about (so I'll assume the Blood Mage Gestalt), but that simply reinforces my point. Of all dragons, Feathered Serpents are the ones most skilled in Nethermancy and blood magic, not Western Dragons like Charcoalgrin with the Gift for Gab.
Oh, and Joseph Campbell was equally full of shit for nearly everything he was "right" about. Dinnae talk tae me about that Bronyx bastard.
| QUOTE |
| 4) Parlainth employed magic to both transport itself and cause all memories and records of its existence to disappear. There have been no mentions of its existence by the Dragons or Immortal Elves of the 6th world, even it had reappeared in by the time Earthdawn takes place. A possible indication that the movement and transportation magic that was used once before had been used again? Admittedly this argument is pretty flimsy, since the Dragons and Immortal Elves have not talked about everything yet, but you would think a city with as much centering around it as Parlainth would have at least gotten some sort of footnote by now. |
Parlainth is A city, and in what is now a rather remote part of the world from most of the action. It could have fallen, or been sent back to the metaplanes, or anything. If it did go back to the metaplanes, and used the Longing Ring again, then noone knows of it and it couldn't possibly be Teo-fuckitIcannaespell-the Aztlanian City
| QUOTE |
| 5) Unknown (possibly corrupted) Dragon or Immortal Elf in charge of Aztlan. Chasrcoalgrin (a possibly corrupted) Dragon who resided in Parlainth. By itself this would be pretty think evidence, but it does not stand by itself. |
Charcoalgrin was not known to be corrupted, and all evidence of a dragon behind AZT points to either DUnkie or a Feathered.
| QUOTE |
| 6) Juan Atzcapotzalco, a powerful and immortal mage with mysterious origins being kept around and preserved by Aztecnology for some reason. Erypimese, a powerful and immortal mage who disappeared during the Scourge being sough out by Chasrcoalgrin. |
Neither is apparently immortal, and most people have suspicions that Juan wasn't e'en quite human anymore. Now, I grant you that Juan could be a draconic pawn or construct, but the chances he's Erpimese are about as likely as the Therans inventing time travel.
| QUOTE |
| Ancient History, I do not see what your issues are with the theory that Shake puts forth or any evidence against it, and in all honesty, I do not see your statements so far on this subjecting being particularly objective. The only things I have seen say at this point about Shake's theory is "it is not what happened", that the theory is completely unfounded, even though Shake has presented what cannon sources are being used, and that Shake is "really wrong about Teotihuacan" without actually supplying any solid reasoning why you feel this way nor references that counter the theory. The most you have supplied for your reasoning for why you are against what Shake proposed happened to Parlainth or where Teotihuacán came from is that it has not been in any sourcebook. This is a pretty weak argument, in my option. I think there are other commonly accepted theories about certain Earthdawn/Shadowrun connections that have not yet been positively conformed, such as Thera being Altantis (I could be wrong about this, since I have not read all the Shadowrun Sourcebooks, since so many are now out of print). Lack of an acknowledged personality coming out and stating this is or is not so is not enough. That would be like saying the ruins at Hisarlik, Canakkale cannot be the ruins of the City of Troy since there is no big wooden horse there or a sign that says "Welcome to Troy". |
DO you REALLY want to get into the history of finding Troy? Sesriously, I think Shake has some good point...but others are just bullshit. I've read every English book in SHadowrun and Earthdawn. I've gone over 'em and made lists and shit. I'm not perfect, I could well have missed some things, and everything is open to interpretation. But I don't buy Parlainth skipping continents. I wouldn't have bought DUnkie skipping continents if they hadn't printed it.
(by the by, they did confirm Atlantis is Thera in the 3rd ED main)
The rascist undertones of the LOTR books were pretty damn clear to me. I'm surprised that they went over so many peoples heads.
Tolkein actually used that Jewish ancestry bit as a ploy to delay publication (ed- so he could swing a better deal), not because he was opposed to it. There is evidence, letters and such, that he was secretly a Nazi sympathizer.
Tolkein actually used that Jewish ancestry bit as a ploy to delay publication (ed- so he could swing a better deal), not because he was opposed to it. There is evidence, letters and such, that he was secretly a Nazi sympathizer.
Zazen, are you Conspir-i-see's half-brother?
You can find evidence to suggest just about anything, if you are inclined to find it. Just because you can find this evidence does not mean that such things even remotely resemble the truth.
I have never heard that about Tolkein ... you lean somthing new every day I guess.
But on the topic of shadowrun being racist I would have to say I disagree just because you were born in aztlan doesn't mean you are evil or even predisposed to evil. They even refer to people being a very close culture and only paying lipservice to the Aztlan culture. Also remember that 60% or more of the NAN are from what was Mexico. (ever wonder where all the native american droped out of the sky from)
I've always found it a great irony that nazi's got most of their ideas from another culture.
But on the topic of shadowrun being racist I would have to say I disagree just because you were born in aztlan doesn't mean you are evil or even predisposed to evil. They even refer to people being a very close culture and only paying lipservice to the Aztlan culture. Also remember that 60% or more of the NAN are from what was Mexico. (ever wonder where all the native american droped out of the sky from)
I've always found it a great irony that nazi's got most of their ideas from another culture.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| The rascist undertones of the LOTR books were pretty damn clear to me. I'm surprised that they went over so many peoples heads. Tolkein actually used that Jewish ancestry bit as a ploy to delay publication (ed- so he could swing a better deal), not because he was opposed to it. There is evidence, letters and such, that he was secretly a Nazi sympathizer. |
Examples Zaz?
Although I did see the entire series as a massive exercise in homoeroticism.
-Siege
"if he tries anything, sam'll kill him." heh.
i honestly don't think tolkien's racist leanings--or the lack thereof--is really worth worrying about, any more than the pagan underpinings of christmas and other holidays is worth worrying about. if you have to argue this hard to convince someone that it's got a racist bias, then that bias really isn't strong enough to mean anything to an unbiased reader.
i honestly don't think tolkien's racist leanings--or the lack thereof--is really worth worrying about, any more than the pagan underpinings of christmas and other holidays is worth worrying about. if you have to argue this hard to convince someone that it's got a racist bias, then that bias really isn't strong enough to mean anything to an unbiased reader.
But Siege, you see that in everything
~J
~J
I've already spent more time than I originally intended trying to solve the cause of your confusion and anger about my original post and that, after all, is my own fault. I merely brought some Earthdawn perspective which was lacking to the Horror discussion and mentioned my theory on Aztlan. It's not from a lack of precision on my part but on an infantile insecurity that some seem to be confused and angered.
I quoted some references to Horrors in Earthdawn and explained what they meant in that context and I corrected some of your misunderstandings about Earthdawn. Fairly simple. I explained a comprehensive theory on Aztlan based on the clues I've found in the E/S books. I was fairly clear how they all fit together and that there could be other clues that contradict the theory. But as far as I can tell, all the facts and clues fit as I have explained. I have a hard time understanding that since this makes sense, how some can be so fanatic in your refusal of it. Why does this matter that much to you? I could understand if there was another theory or something that contradicted what I said. If there is a better theory, or even another theory at all, I'm willing to listen. But if the Vampire from the Blood Wood argument doesn't move you, I doubt you'd be moved by anything because that seems like one of the most obvious hidden facts FASA has ever put into one of their books. That's about as obvious as 'Big D' being Dunkelzhan. Again, nothing too complicated on its face, but some wish to make it more complicated than it needs to be.
It's clear that the issues you have about my post are issues you brought to this board, not issues you find here. I think that it's clear that I overestimated your ability to rationally discuss this and that your issues are deeper than insecurity about my post. The only help I can give to you is to suggest you seriously consider psychological therapy. Perhaps your High School Councilor could help you if you lack the funds to seek a specialist. This is only a game, not worth the anger displayed or the intentional misunderstandings. For whatever reason, my post means more to you than it does to me and I'm not interesting in provoking more boorish behavior from you by merely posting theories based on the internal facts of the E/S game world. I would also suggest that you take a look at the Earthdawn materials, though I know they are out of print and could be expensive for you to acquire. Earthdawn, while developed after S, contains many of the more subtle aspects of the E/S Mythos, particularly in regards to the basic metaphysics of Great Pattern vs Horrible Pattern.
Once you read those E books, you might understand about the Creanan gods being the same as the Egyptian ones and what Leonardo's ‘Great Work’ really is. Or that the first Vampire came form the Blood Wood by reading the rather blunt description of her in ‘Blood Wood.’ Or by looking at the Parlainth boxed set and a Mexican history book, or a history of architecture (can always go to the library if you can't afford one) you will realize what the E/S developers intended, that Teotihuacan is Parlainth. The amount of care and time and specificity of the design isn’t lost on me, nor is the rather absurd notion of a city traveling and being totally forgotten by the whole world which fits perfectly for so many reasons with Teotihuacan, a site in Shadowrun that is specifically mentioned as one of the most extremely powerful and dangerous sites in the 6th world. It’s special for a reason and I merely follow the clues. This ‘Forgotten City’ is a central pillar of Earthdawn and is the bridge that directly links the E and S worlds and explains Aztlan and the horror connection, plus the Corrupt Dragon and immortal human (Ehren specifically states that Juan is ‘simply human’ but would take him to be an Immortal like himself in the S book ‘Aztlan,’ another one you should pick up).
If you had the books, I’m sure you would understand since this isn't all that difficult to follow. I'm no expert by any means, but you really should take a look at some of the books I referred to and you'll see what I was talking about. And you won’t have to be corrected about them the next time if you understand what they actually say and mean, and not just your opinions of what you think they say. It is somewhat ironic that 'Ancient History' seems to not understand the ancient history of Shadowrun which is Earthdawn. It seems like not a lot of people on this S board really understand Earthdawn that much, so with a little effort and reading up, your name will no longer be ironical, but could be explanatory as you learn about the 'ancient history' of Shadowrun. Who knows, maybe you could be the local board expert on Earthdawn once you actually read the Earthdawn books and understand them. Seems unlikely now, but stranger things have happened, like a city moving from Russia to Mexico and being forgotten. Hey, if you read them all, you'll be one step up on a guy like me who only skims through them. Besides your anger and insecurities, the biggest block in your understanding my pretty simple and clearly explained points seems to be your lack of knowledge about Earthdawn. That might be easier to correct than your being a dick.
Good luck with that and don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. Denial is the greatest threat to mental health and learning.
I quoted some references to Horrors in Earthdawn and explained what they meant in that context and I corrected some of your misunderstandings about Earthdawn. Fairly simple. I explained a comprehensive theory on Aztlan based on the clues I've found in the E/S books. I was fairly clear how they all fit together and that there could be other clues that contradict the theory. But as far as I can tell, all the facts and clues fit as I have explained. I have a hard time understanding that since this makes sense, how some can be so fanatic in your refusal of it. Why does this matter that much to you? I could understand if there was another theory or something that contradicted what I said. If there is a better theory, or even another theory at all, I'm willing to listen. But if the Vampire from the Blood Wood argument doesn't move you, I doubt you'd be moved by anything because that seems like one of the most obvious hidden facts FASA has ever put into one of their books. That's about as obvious as 'Big D' being Dunkelzhan. Again, nothing too complicated on its face, but some wish to make it more complicated than it needs to be.
It's clear that the issues you have about my post are issues you brought to this board, not issues you find here. I think that it's clear that I overestimated your ability to rationally discuss this and that your issues are deeper than insecurity about my post. The only help I can give to you is to suggest you seriously consider psychological therapy. Perhaps your High School Councilor could help you if you lack the funds to seek a specialist. This is only a game, not worth the anger displayed or the intentional misunderstandings. For whatever reason, my post means more to you than it does to me and I'm not interesting in provoking more boorish behavior from you by merely posting theories based on the internal facts of the E/S game world. I would also suggest that you take a look at the Earthdawn materials, though I know they are out of print and could be expensive for you to acquire. Earthdawn, while developed after S, contains many of the more subtle aspects of the E/S Mythos, particularly in regards to the basic metaphysics of Great Pattern vs Horrible Pattern.
Once you read those E books, you might understand about the Creanan gods being the same as the Egyptian ones and what Leonardo's ‘Great Work’ really is. Or that the first Vampire came form the Blood Wood by reading the rather blunt description of her in ‘Blood Wood.’ Or by looking at the Parlainth boxed set and a Mexican history book, or a history of architecture (can always go to the library if you can't afford one) you will realize what the E/S developers intended, that Teotihuacan is Parlainth. The amount of care and time and specificity of the design isn’t lost on me, nor is the rather absurd notion of a city traveling and being totally forgotten by the whole world which fits perfectly for so many reasons with Teotihuacan, a site in Shadowrun that is specifically mentioned as one of the most extremely powerful and dangerous sites in the 6th world. It’s special for a reason and I merely follow the clues. This ‘Forgotten City’ is a central pillar of Earthdawn and is the bridge that directly links the E and S worlds and explains Aztlan and the horror connection, plus the Corrupt Dragon and immortal human (Ehren specifically states that Juan is ‘simply human’ but would take him to be an Immortal like himself in the S book ‘Aztlan,’ another one you should pick up).
If you had the books, I’m sure you would understand since this isn't all that difficult to follow. I'm no expert by any means, but you really should take a look at some of the books I referred to and you'll see what I was talking about. And you won’t have to be corrected about them the next time if you understand what they actually say and mean, and not just your opinions of what you think they say. It is somewhat ironic that 'Ancient History' seems to not understand the ancient history of Shadowrun which is Earthdawn. It seems like not a lot of people on this S board really understand Earthdawn that much, so with a little effort and reading up, your name will no longer be ironical, but could be explanatory as you learn about the 'ancient history' of Shadowrun. Who knows, maybe you could be the local board expert on Earthdawn once you actually read the Earthdawn books and understand them. Seems unlikely now, but stranger things have happened, like a city moving from Russia to Mexico and being forgotten. Hey, if you read them all, you'll be one step up on a guy like me who only skims through them. Besides your anger and insecurities, the biggest block in your understanding my pretty simple and clearly explained points seems to be your lack of knowledge about Earthdawn. That might be easier to correct than your being a dick.
Good luck with that and don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. Denial is the greatest threat to mental health and learning.
You ignorant little shit. I give you props for research and having some decent, if wacky ideas and you have the gall to claim I haven't read the material? I own the material! All of it! Even the stuff you claim only to have skimmed! Have you ever visited my site you pretentious little fuckwit?
I was just making up random nonsense, guys. Come on, Tolkien the nazi sympathizer who fakes moral disgust to get better publishing deals?! Yeeaah 
Looks like Ancient has a new best friend.
hey, shake, if it's not worth getting angry over, then it's not worth making pretentious insults about maturity about, is it? trolling in order to piss someone off is just as bad as getting pissed off--and if you honestly didn't intend to piss AH off, then you need lessons in how humans communicate way more than he needs psychotherapy.
Shake: imagine this. You spend your money on the entirety of two rather substantial RPG systems. Not just one, but two of them. You then spend your time reading all of them, not just skimming, but reading in depth, and then cross-referencing all of the information contained within, checking references between materials and game systems. You spend quite a lot of time on this, actually, as I'm not sure how quickly AH reads but as a fast reader myself it typically takes a week to get through a Shadowrun book, sometimes two (please note that this is taking into account Real Life™; with proper will and enough time it could be done in a few solid hours, but those are solid hours that are seldom available). You then additionally spend your time and effort not merely to create a site that includes a fair amount of information, but also to keep tabs on a board for one of these games and interject some of the information your research has brought you that most people wouldn't have access to.
You do this, and you do it for free.
Now, do you perhaps think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, that something, even a game, would start to mean a decent amount to you after this much time, money, and effort invested in it?
You clearly state that you are not an expert by any means. There's the difference between you; he is.
~J
You do this, and you do it for free.
Now, do you perhaps think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, that something, even a game, would start to mean a decent amount to you after this much time, money, and effort invested in it?
You clearly state that you are not an expert by any means. There's the difference between you; he is.
~J
In case you weren't aware, Master Shake, The Ancient Files, Ancient History's site, are regarded as the definitive reference for SR/ED crossovers. He's very, very knowledgeable about this stuff, and very, very good.
Hey, it's starting to look like a cat fight between academics...
Seriously, Master(That's one hell of an ego, you've got there) Shake, you could have been a little more respectful. Afterall, you are just another Target(notice that little title below your name?) and AH's Running a lot faster than you.
If you didn't really mean to be insulting, maybe you need to put a
or after your provacative posts.
Now only if you could Quote chapter and verse properly...
OK, OK, just kidding... NOT! 
Seriously, Master(That's one hell of an ego, you've got there) Shake, you could have been a little more respectful. Afterall, you are just another Target(notice that little title below your name?) and AH's Running a lot faster than you.
If you didn't really mean to be insulting, maybe you need to put a
or after your provacative posts.Now only if you could Quote chapter and verse properly...
OK, OK, just kidding... NOT!
Master Shake is a character on a cartoon on Adult Swim, you philistine.
Just don't tell Meat Wad.
Cause he gets the honey, see...
"Charcoalgrin was not known to be corrupted, and all evidence of a dragon behind AZT points to either DUnkie or a Feathered."
Insult my dog, my wife and my kids, but don't insult my dragon!
(Yes, I'm unmarried and in college).
Seriously, I find the idea of Dunkie being behind Aztechnology very unlikely. You may have information I am unaware of, however.
"Charcoalgrin was not known to be corrupted, and all evidence of a dragon behind AZT points to either DUnkie or a Feathered."
Insult my dog, my wife and my kids, but don't insult my dragon!
(Yes, I'm unmarried and in college).
Seriously, I find the idea of Dunkie being behind Aztechnology very unlikely. You may have information I am unaware of, however.
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| You may have information I am unaware of, however. |
Like, for example, the abundance of Aztechnology shares that he doled out in his will?
I'm inclined to count those to the money he made.
If he was behind it all, he could of put the whole board in the hands of one person, besides tacking on one.
And knowing his penchant for people in position of power being obvious (Tirs, anyone), I think he'd publicize the lists if he knew.
If he was behind it all, he could of put the whole board in the hands of one person, besides tacking on one.
And knowing his penchant for people in position of power being obvious (Tirs, anyone), I think he'd publicize the lists if he knew.
I really think he's more trying to out the IEs rather than push for transparency of upper ranks in general. Actually, he's probably just tweaking the IEs; I don't think he's stupid enough to expect them to actually ever fulfill the terms of the Will.
~J
~J
Neither do i, but in making that request he started making more people think What have they got to hide?
Which i think was the point.
Which i think was the point.
I'm better now. Just a knee-jerk FLAME ON! reaction. Thanks for the support, y'all.
Just to say something in this post, Master Shake has some neat ideas, that although they might not flow entirely with the history, does seem like a fun idea. Since hte books do leave a lot of "thruth" up to the GM, it might be a fun idea to run with. Anyways, the biggest problem I see with it is that Charcoalgrin isnt a feathered serpent, which appears on some book cover flying over Aztlan
My main problem with the Shaker comes from his "I quote" in his last post. He didn't quote much at all. (Neither did you AH)
I don't own any ED books, and I'll admit to being real spotty on the history of it. But I am the type who likes to know what people are quoting from, and the actual quotes they are using.
I don't own any ED books, and I'll admit to being real spotty on the history of it. But I am the type who likes to know what people are quoting from, and the actual quotes they are using.
I'm still intruiged by the notion of Parlainth moving to South America, think it could be possible. Unless, is anything mentioned in the Theran sourcebooks about them having holdings in South America?
Still, that aside... Dunkelzahn in charge of Aztechnology??? Huh! What? I'd like to hear the evidence for that fact as I've never even seen anything to hint at that. He may have had shares, but I severely doubt he was controlling the corporation. For me that would totally jar with the material in the Aztlan sourcebook (one of the major sources for 'immortal' stuff in SR)
Could someone please point me to some page references, novels or something to back this up?
Still, that aside... Dunkelzahn in charge of Aztechnology??? Huh! What? I'd like to hear the evidence for that fact as I've never even seen anything to hint at that. He may have had shares, but I severely doubt he was controlling the corporation. For me that would totally jar with the material in the Aztlan sourcebook (one of the major sources for 'immortal' stuff in SR)
Could someone please point me to some page references, novels or something to back this up?
The Therans had a province in america, named Araucania. I don't know how much of america was colonized, but it might be why the same style can be found in Parlainth and South america.
I must say, as a history major myself, I know how much work goes into correlating all the material for something like AH's many projects and you would be pretty close if you guessed "enormous".
But even more, I am impressed with how carful AH is in formulating theories. He never, I repeat never assumes facts that are not in evidence. He does not make wild leaps to support a claim. He applies Occam's Razor masterfully. He always acknowledges his biases and points out where his own flaws may be. Someone with that degree of academic discipline is welcome to absolutely shred any theory of mine any time he wants.
Good God! If only some of my textbooks were as well thought out as his material. Thank you AH, you have increased mine and my group's enjoyment of SR manyfold.
But even more, I am impressed with how carful AH is in formulating theories. He never, I repeat never assumes facts that are not in evidence. He does not make wild leaps to support a claim. He applies Occam's Razor masterfully. He always acknowledges his biases and points out where his own flaws may be. Someone with that degree of academic discipline is welcome to absolutely shred any theory of mine any time he wants.
Good God! If only some of my textbooks were as well thought out as his material. Thank you AH, you have increased mine and my group's enjoyment of SR manyfold.
| QUOTE |
| Can't fight with guns, no matter how good they might be. |
Well, here's a little quote directly from Dunkelzahn in Beyond the Pale.
"My fellow dragons are overconfident... Technology changes everything. No magic can protect against it. There will be no hiding this time. There will only be war. We must gain the time we need to build our technology so that we have the ability to fight the Enemy when it can cross."
I think is pretty clearly states that dunkelzahn intends for Humanity to fight the Horrors with technology.
As for Dunkelzahn being behind Aztechnology, I find the notion to be absurd. Dunkelzahn was a good person, as far as dragons go. Yeah yeah, you can say "oh it was all an act, Never Deal with a Dragon, blah, blah, ad nausem, blah." Or you can actually have a little hope in this world, and think that just maybe Dunkelzahn was exactly what he appeared to be.... a Caring protector of Humanity.
And as for the Master Shake/Ancient History spat..... Shake, you have some neat ideas. However, when push comes to shove, if AH says you're wrong, you're wrong. Dude's the bomb diggitty when it comes to ED/SR crossover information.
Damn shame this thread had to degenerate in to this kind of fight. It was interesting. Perhaps it can get back on track? One question though. If ED and S were taking place in the same fictional universe (more or less) why were the game systems so different? OK another question. Why haven't some the other races from ED shown up yet? From the little I remeber they didn't seem to need high amounts of mana. What's up with that?
Thanos
Thanos
| QUOTE (Pthgar) |
| I must say, as a history major myself, I know how much work goes into correlating all the material for something like AH's many projects and you would be pretty close if you guessed "enormous". But even more, I am impressed with how carful AH is in formulating theories. He never, I repeat never assumes facts that are not in evidence. He does not make wild leaps to support a claim. He applies Occam's Razor masterfully. He always acknowledges his biases and points out where his own flaws may be. Someone with that degree of academic discipline is welcome to absolutely shred any theory of mine any time he wants. Good God! If only some of my textbooks were as well thought out as his material. Thank you AH, you have increased mine and my group's enjoyment of SR manyfold. |
I agree with Pthgar. AH has been a great font of knowledge and backs himself very well. While I do like some of the ideas Shake has thrown out, I'd consider them more of an alternate universe kind of ideas. When it comes to trying to be as canon as possible, I'll take AH's info as gospel any day of the week.
Keep movin AH, I'll cover ya.
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| Damn shame this thread had to degenerate in to this kind of fight. It was interesting. Perhaps it can get back on track? One question though. If ED and S were taking place in the same fictional universe (more or less) why were the game systems so different? OK another question. Why haven't some the other races from ED shown up yet? From the little I remeber they didn't seem to need high amounts of mana. What's up with that? |
First off, I find it ironic that you're saying this as the fight winds down
Second, yes, they don't need a "high level" of mana, but remember how much mana there is in the world. We are FIFTY YEARS from the Awakening; we're a lot closer to the bottom of the downcycle than the top of the upcycle, I'd say. Besides, I think Obsidimen would need rather a lot of mana (comparatively) to manifest. T'skrang maybe not so much, and we already have Windlings. Give it a few hundred years.
~J
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| Why haven't some the other races from ED shown up yet? From the little I remeber they didn't seem to need high amounts of mana. What's up with that? |
Don't know about anyone else, but when I read that the formula for the vaccination Dunkie's will contained dragon blood/genes, my first thought was that it was to aid those who were later going to become the T'skrang.
I remember readining an interview a few years ago, I think it was on the DS Archive, with Mike Mulvihill. I seem to remember him saying that the T'Skrang and Obsidimen didn't make it through the down cycle. I'll keep trying to find it.
| QUOTE |
| First off, I find it ironic that you're saying this as the fight winds down |
Well we haven't seen Shake's reply to the out pouring of support for AH. So who says its winding down? This may be the calm before the storm.
Thanos
P.S. Yeah. OK. I think it's winding down now as well.
Bah obsidimen are just too cool to be extinct.
Besides even if they do exist they might just be taking a few hundered years to bother getting more than a few miles from thier liferocks or something, and maybe only really remote ones have managed not to be stripmined or something. Obsidimen are leisurely like that.
Weren't they still considered childeren until they were a couple hundered years old?
Besides even if they do exist they might just be taking a few hundered years to bother getting more than a few miles from thier liferocks or something, and maybe only really remote ones have managed not to be stripmined or something. Obsidimen are leisurely like that.
Weren't they still considered childeren until they were a couple hundered years old?
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