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Siege
QUOTE (Trickster)
QUOTE (Siege)
I don't think the T'skrang are big enough (cool enough) to actually hibernate during the downturn in mana cycles.

Who said anything about them hibernating?

If you look higher up the posts, someone suggested the T'skrang might gone into hibernation.

I pointed out that Great Dragons and their kin were the only ones known to have hibernated during the downtime. As the T'skrang were nowhere near the level of Dragons, I found it highly unlikely they could have performed in a similar behavior as no other species seemed capable of that feat.

-Siege
Ancient History
The t'skrang used dragon magic to hibernate during the Scourge; it is possible they could have used a similiar magic to survive the downcycle...although the question would be "where."
Prototype
There would be the slight problem that there was magic durning the scourge, but not during the downcycle. Most likely explanation is that they're some other type of creature which has yet to express.

Obviously in the 4th age T'skrang had to come from somewhere - which probably determines what happened to them. Main possibilities:

1) They 'expressed' from another species such as snakes, lizards, men, etc.

2) The were created by some being(s) such as the Dragons, Passions, etc.

The whole 'magic to reproduce' thing seems to imply option 2), but it's entirely possible that the species they express from doesn't require magic to reproduce whilst the T'skrang do.

So in the case of 1) being true, chances are T'skrang are still around waiting for the mana level to rise high enough to express - unless the species that they came from went extinct which is a possibility (albeit a remote one I'd say given numbers/distribution/most likely species to be T'skrang.) Main arguement against this comes from the fact that even if T'skrang have not generally expressed, I would have thought we'd have seen one or two spike babies (so to speak) somewhere in the SR universe.

In the case of option 2) chances are the T'skrang died out alongside magic, unless they took another form when magic went away and/or hibernated somehow. This begs the question why some haven't awoken and/or awakened and been spotted sneaking about the SR universe.
Senchae
QUOTE (Euiscerati)
FASA really hasn't gone out of their way to develop this since JC or UMSONDO appear in no other Shadowrun books as far as I know.

Jungle Cat appears in Dragons of the SIxth World, doesn't he? If I recall correctly he's the one who chastizes Celedyr/Stone-Diver for not having protected the Great Tree. (But, since I am as usual posting this from work, that's from memory, and I welcome correction.)
JongWK
Could someone post JC's quote in DotSW, please? It might be of help.
LouP
Wow... what an interesting thread....

I haven't been by here in months, and what do I find but a debate about ED.

Even though Ancient History doesn't accept my word unless it's supported in print ( wink.gif ), I thought I'd share some thoughts about this.

Essentially, neither theory posted by "Master Shake" is correct as far as FASA-published ED continuity is concerned.

First, The female elf is most definitely NOT the first carrier of HMHVV. Was the description written so as to allow for some question about her? Maybe (honestly I don't recall), but I can tell you with 100% certainty that she was NOT intended to be the first "vampire" in ED.

Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.

As far as FASA ED is concerned, there is NO connection between Parlainth and Aztlan, or between Charcoalgrin and the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology.

They're both interesting theories, but they aren't supported by the ED "canon" without some pretty wild and unsubstantiated guesswork.

Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who's going back to lurking....
JongWK
QUOTE
Page 130 of Aztlan:
'...or a fragging Awakened Jaguar looking for lunch.'

Hecate- What is an Awakened Jaguar?
Jungle Cat- That would be me.
Laughing Man - <chuckle>
UMSONDO- And he is hardly alone
Laughing man- Ah, our leonine friends. Perhaps I should take a closer interest in such matters.
UMSONDO- Perhaps you should.

Jungle Cat is clearly making a joke which is why Harlequin laughs. They're referring to a post about the dangers of the southern Amazonian border. What our 'leonine friends' refers to is mysterious though it's clear from the tone that's it's probably meant tongue-in-cheek because it begins with a joke. Unless Umsondo is a magical lion and Jungle Cat is a magical jaguar which doesn't make any sense. Dunkelzahn is bringing together the heavy hitters to discuss the dangers of the Horrors and Aztlan. He's brought top players from various groups, so why would he invite some shape shifters to share these dark secrets? Jungle Cat is clearly high in the structure of Amazonia. Hualpa is the head of Amazonia and so it makes sense that when bringing together Amazonia, that Dunkie would invite Hualpa. Why would he invite someone lesser and not Hualpa? Iit makes sense that it would be Hualpa.


You do realize that Umsondo might be referring to the fact that Amazonia has plenty of shapeshifters, right? And that while Harlequin knows a lot of things, he might have neglected an issue or two?

Why inviting a shapeshifter? I think it's because JC is Hualpa's top lieutenant, a Riker of sorts (*winks at Star Trek fans* wink.gif).

I don't know how did you conclude that Umsondo is a magical lion. Care to explain?

Note: I hadn't thought before about a "leonine partnership", but it could fit with some of the comments in DotSW and recent books.


QUOTE
On page 172, Laughing Man mentions 'the Compact! ?The Grand Deal! The "If We Don't Stop Yelling At Each Other We'll All Be Dead" Agreement!' Then Jungle Cat Says 'I never signed it.' Then UMSONDO says 'Nor did I.' Then Harlequin says 'No one ever needed you to, Watcher (UMSONDO).' This is in response to Hecate (Aina) getting bitchy and calling the worriers cowards and Jungle cat gets all upset at Hecate and says 'Bitch, she has no right to be speaking with us.' 'Us?' Clearly this is an elite group of immortals who're all aware of the Horrors from before and agreed to fight them, though Jungle Cat and UMSONDO didn't sign but are outsiders. Perhaps because the 'Compact' was Barsaive regional and UMSONDO and Jungle Cat were elsewhere. It's clear that these players are all equals, they're not just some shape shifter who changed and found themselves in the highest circles of dark secrets.


I think you're jumping too quickly into your conclusions. The Compact looks more like an agreement made by the elves after the dramatic events in Earthdawn (i.e, Blood Wood). The elves were/are sharply dividived, but at least they manage to maintain a cold politeness between the factions (the two Towers -err... Tirs). Jungle Cat is not an elf so he has nothing to do with that issue, so why should he sign it?

@ Ancient History: Could it be possible that the Compact is an truce between elves and dragons?


QUOTE
Hecate being Aina also makes sense because of her Horror confections and apathy and Dunkelzahn goes out of his way to reach out to her in his will. So it would make sense that she is Hecate, whom Dunkelzahn reaches out to in Aztlan and she is arrogant and dismissive and needs the hope he offers her in his will.


Jungle Cat despises Hecate because maybe she's done Horror-like deeds (Alachia & the Blood Wood), or she represents an equally hated foe (Sheila Blatavska & the Atlantean Foundation/Therans). You see, Aina is not the only candidate for Hecate's true ID. Personally, I think it doesn't sound like the paranoid, the-end-is-near doomsayer looking for help from Worlds Without End, but she's certainly arrogant like Alachia, who knows Brane Deigh well enough to mock her in public without further problem.

Can't say much about Hecate being Blatavska, at least until I get my hand on a copy of Threats. I do know that Lone Gunman identified her as Hecate in that book (but since Lone Gunman is such a conspiracy theorist, who knows?).

On the other hand, Blatavska might be a Spike Baby, and we know Brane Deigh is relatively young IE (i.e, wasn't born in the Fourth World). Jungle Cat doesn't need to be from the Fourth World to be annoyed by them (but it still makes you wonder how old is he, and if it is possible for a shapeshifter to exist before the Awakening).


QUOTE
He's an old power who's clearly at the top of Amazonia and he knows about the Amazonian Locus and mentions their rituals not being those Great Rituals (forbidden? dangerous?) on page 114. He knows about the Blood Magic Amazonians are using to fuel their nation and the ancient rituals and gets upset when Laughing Man takes a shot of his use of blood magic on page  23:


Once again, he doesn't need to be the top dog in Amazonia to know all that. Amazonian blood magic is life magic (Great Ghost Dance style), while Aztlaner BM is death magic. That's one honking big difference.


One last question: Why would Hualpa take the Jungle Cat nickname? As far as we know, all the Powers that Be in SR use meaningful aliases (Wordsmyth, Big D, Laughing Man, Orange Queen, Ghost in the Machine, etc). Why then, would Hualpa pick JC?

BTW: It would have made more sense for him to be called Jungle Chicken, as Hualpa means "chicken" in a pre-Columbian language (Inca, I think). nyahnyah.gif silly.gif
Senchae
QUOTE (JongWK)
@ Ancient History: Could it be possible that the Compact is an truce between elves and dragons?


I find the truce between elves and dragons to be likely. They fought towards the end of the fourth world, the dragons won, but some kind of truce had to have been made, since some of the IEs who went up against the dragons are still running around. Remember that (according to WWE, anyway) Aina was the only IE to side with the dragons.

QUOTE (JongWK)
On the other hand, Blatavska might be a Spike Baby, and we know Brane Deigh is relatively young IE (i.e, wasn't born in the Fourth World).


Do we really know that she wasn't born in the forth world? She's relatively young, no question, but her conversation with Wordsmyth in PoaD left me fairly convinced that she had at least lived through the confrontation between IEs and Dragons, so I thought she was born really late fourth world.
JongWK
The Man himself hath spoken. eek.gif

QUOTE
Essentially, neither theory posted by "Master Shake" is correct as far as FASA-published ED continuity is concerned.


Well, that pretty much settles this thread's topic, right?
JongWK
QUOTE (Senchae)
Do we really know that she wasn't born in the forth world? She's relatively young, no question, but her conversation with Wordsmyth in PoaD left me fairly convinced that she had at least lived through the confrontation between IEs and Dragons, so I thought she was born really late fourth world.

She doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the horrors and, according to WWE, Alachia keeps her in the dark when it comes to some issues ("Let me tell you what really happenned...").
annachie
QUOTE (LouP)
Wow... what an interesting thread....


Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.


QUOTE (Annachie)

Reason 1. The author thinks C-American architecture is cool.
Reason 2. The artist .....
Reason 3. The editor .....


smile.gif

QUOTE

As far as FASA ED is concerned, there is NO connection between Parlainth and Aztlan, or between Charcoalgrin and the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology.


Just because MM walked away from the idea doesn't mean you can't do it in your own game.


Besides I have this image of a great horror who gets himself stuck in Parlainth when it returns to the astral pocket. Unable to get out it sends it's thoughts roaming until it finds a mayan priest sleeping in a cave. It inspires the priest with all these images of "a city of the gods", all these new rituals involving sacrifice etc, in the hopes that the Mayans can generate enough blood magic to free it. Of course it fails, the mayan culture collapses and the city of the gods is virtually abandoned.
Then comes the GGD, and the horror now realises that his plan may work with the mana level now being much higher due to the spike, so it goes looking for a new high priest and starts again.

Just a thought.
JongWK
QUOTE (annachie)
QUOTE (LouP)
Wow... what an interesting thread....


Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.


QUOTE (Annachie)

Reason 1. The author thinks C-American architecture is cool.
Reason 2. The artist .....
Reason 3. The editor .....


smile.gif

Also note that he mentioned Thera as the source of later cultures like the Egyptian, Mayan, etc. That fits with Ehran's speech to the YETs ("Humans and the Cycle of Magic", available at FanPro's website).
Playing Games
Who said jc is a shape shifter?What if it is a free spirit...One on the scale of the spirit of Denver?JC could be the spirit of the Amazon?That would give him a lot of mojo.


And UM could be a wolf,montian lion, or another spirit.

I mean,if I went around and called myself Sol,that doesn't make me the sun.JC, could be a shaman of some cat totem,for all the evidence I have seen.

The pryamid were built in logical ways.The way ,and form.Take this, what is the easiest form to make?Then, what form is easiest to remodel.They are the same.You have natives who build temples,in the easiest way to get the largest,and tallest buildings,with proof that some of these building were built,then added on too.
Senchae
QUOTE (JongWK)
She doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the horrors and, according to WWE, Alachia keeps her in the dark when it comes to some issues ("Let me tell you what really happenned...").

Right, so it would still make sense if she was born about as far post-Scourge as is possible, and still be Fourth world.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (JongWK)
Amazonian blood magic is life magic (Great Ghost Dance style), while Aztlaner BM is death magic. That's one honking big difference.

Care to explain to me how the Great Ghost Dance is anything but death magic?

~J
Siege
Death magic gains power expressly from the act of killing, whether the victims are willing or not whereas the Great Ghost Dance was magic on such a massive scale people were killed by participating willingly.

They were incidentals or collateral damage, depending on your point of view.

Just my two bits.

-Siege
Ancient History
Mr. Prosperi...love your stuff. You know I do. I just have to draw a line on what goes into the site.

JongWK: an agreement between the IEs and the GDs has been hinted at in several places, most notably "Worlds WIthout End" and "Portfolio of a Dragon" (Ehran's chit-chat with Lady of the Court).

Kagetenshi: Technically speaking, the Great Ghost Dance was ritual life magic. It was a ritual spell requiring the willing sacrifice of the casters. The Azzie equivalent would require massive unwilling sacrifices (case in point: the ritual at the end of the Dragonheart Trilogy).
northern lights
QUOTE
Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who's going back to lurking....

fasalou! i drown in my tears.

i'd also like to point out to those who may not know:

the previous quote about the "example of a vampire" from the earthdawn developer was from someone at LRG. NOT FASA. unless i misremember.

i have personally viewed anything produced at LRG as NOT CANON in regards to earthdawn material, no more so than i would pass my own fiction off as canon for ED. many people have openly scathed LRG for their work on earthdawn, and though i personally applaud their efforts, i cannot say that i, again personally, care much for their results. i hope redbrick does indeed make some headway with the more classic approach.

must go to sleep, see you all after i get internet serivice again. keep cranking out the crossover debates!
LouP
QUOTE (northern lights)

i'd also like to point out to those who may not know:

the previous quote about the "example of a vampire" from the earthdawn developer was from someone at LRG. NOT FASA. unless i misremember.


Actually, that example *was* in the FASA version of the Earthdawn Companion as well, but it's something I wish was never included. It worked well as an example, but it also implied that there are vampires in ED, which is NOT true (or at least wasn't true when FASA published the game). Given the dangerous nature of Blood Magic, vampires should be truly frightening in ED and would deserve special attention.

SPOILER WARNING





On an unrelated note, I saw some discussion about the true identity of Hecate. Though this may have changed at some point after I left FASA, when she was first introduced, the intention was that Hecate (and possibly Sheila Blats(whatever)) was Alachia. I know there are some spots in some books (most notably Tir Tairngire I think) that suggest that this is not the case, but that was the original idea.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who is going back to lurking... and this time I mean it!
Req
Whoa. Solid answers. Weird.
Talia Invierno
Strange. Vindication from above [re Hecate]. Apparently it was obvious after all. (It just couldn't be seen for the trees.)

I may faint.
Senchae
This is the line that made me believe that Lady Deigh was a late fourth worlder, and it's more ambiguous than I had remembered:
QUOTE
"To be honest, when we were last together I sided against our late friend
with great reluctance."  - Wordsmyth to Lady of the Court

I had assumed that the "we" was Wordsmyth and Lady, and indeed it's possible, but it also could mean Ehran and Dunkie. (That's from Portfolio of a Dragon, by the by.)

Also, for those who wanted to know what Jungle Cat had to say in Dragons of the Sixth World:
QUOTE
"It is a message to one who was entrusted with great responsibility and
abandoned it in the hour of need. Those who now tend to the remains of the
Great Tree will not be so negligant."  - Jungle Cat

"Root Protector and I did all that we could, and we made our own choices.
I didn't see you there helping out." - Script-Diver

"Enough. It will not happen again. Far Scholar has appointed a new
steward, and we can only hope that the failures of some do not haunt us
all." - Glitterfrost

"The past is past. I stand by my actions." - Script-Diver


And, woah regarding information about Hecate and Sheila... meep.
JongWK
QUOTE (LouP)
On an unrelated note, I saw some discussion about the true identity of Hecate. Though this may have changed at some point after I left FASA, when she was first introduced, the intention was that Hecate (and possibly Sheila Blats(whatever)) was Alachia. I know there are some spots in some books (most notably Tir Tairngire I think) that suggest that this is not the case, but that was the original idea.


Sheesh, straight from the horse's mouth! biggrin.gif

Alachia = Hecate = Sheila Blatavska? Talk about twisted...

It also gives new light on the AF, doesn't it?

[EDIT]
Mr.Prosperi, would it be too much to ask who the heck is Jungle Cat?
[/EDIT]
Nath
QUOTE (JongWK)
Alachia = Hecate = Sheila Blatavska? Talk about twisted...

It also gives new light on the AF, doesn't it?

Never read Threats, I suppose ?
JongWK
QUOTE (Nath)
QUOTE (Nath)
Never read Threats, I suppose ?

Right on that one, Nath. I'd love to get my hands on the Threats series, but until I get a better-paid job or my group starts buying their own books (yeah, I'm still hooking them with SR devil.gif ), I have to be picky. SoE leads my list... it will come out one day, I swear it! wink.gif

That being said, I was under the impression that the AF was a front for Sheila Blatavska the Spike Baby and people who wanted Thera back.

That Blatavska is in fact Alachia is one big surprise. On the other hand, Lone Gunman identifying Hecate as Blatavska makes more sense, right?

Euiscerati

The poster known as Euiscerati has been suspended. Have a nice day.
-Admin
Zazen
Harsh, man.
Fortune
More like sour grapes.

Edit: I want to make it clear that my post was in reference to the content of Euiscerati's post, and not the fact that an Administrator suspended him. smile.gif
Ancient History
This is why I never tried making a page on White Wolf games.

Hey E! Chill out man. Take a breather. 's all good. Lou's just tryin' to do all of us a favor by clearin' up a few mysteries (at least until FanPro/RedBrick/LRG changes something).
Austere Emancipator
I thought I'd cut Euiscerati's rant down to size, so those who want to know what it's about, but don't have time to read through it all, can have a clue.

QUOTE (Euiscerati)
[...] Fucking Shitting [...] fucking [...] fucking [...] LMAO! [...] bullshitting [...] the most stupid post on this entire thread. [...] you morons [...] Lol. [...] fucking [...] bullshit [...] shit [...] you dopes [...]

[...] fucking [...]
[...] Jesus Christ. I'm glad I've downloaded all the SR books and didn't buy them. Better to be quiet and thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt. [...]


More seriously though:
QUOTE (Euiscerati (edited by me))
So Master has these well argued theories based on what is said in ED and S and AH wasted hundreds of hours with a web site trying to tie all these threads together and basically, nobody really had a grand vision that this all fit into? They take this more seriously than you ever did, which is sad on both counts. You should keep your mouth shut because Master and even AH make you seem smart by projecting an order and pattern, which clearly doesn't exist, onto your game.

I find it quite amusing that someone is surprised by the idea that there might not perhaps exist unlimited amounts of "secret" information hidden from us consumers. I've always thought of the (extremely elegant) theories put forth by certain people on these forums more as field studies on how a world starts coming together when you keep writing about it, even if there is no vast "secret background story" from which all the novels and sourcebooks and everything draw.

It never even occurred to me that some of the more in-depth analyses of What's Really Going On In ED/SR might be about Finding The Truth Behind It All. I am far more excited by the possibility that stories that might not originally have had much to do with each other later come together to form vast numbers of possible intricate "background" plots.

I'm not saying that ED/SR books don't have several "secrets" or big parts of background metaplot that were already there when the books were written, but I never once thought that if AH and others kept going at these theories then one day some line developer would come in and say "Yes, that's exactly how we planned it to work out from day 1, congratulations for solving the mystery."
toturi
QUOTE (Euiscerati)
Hecate is, maybe Alachia, that is if you can remember correctly? Jesus Christ. I'm glad I've downloaded all the SR books and didn't buy them. Better to be quiet and thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I liked SR much better a few days ago.

Please say that out loud.

And while you are at it, please state your ID and address.

I'm sure Fanpro's lawyers will be knocking on your doors soon. Haveaniceday, dipshit. newbie.gif

I'm sure the moron in ewe will realise how f**king STEWPIT ewe were. Oh, how stupid of me, I forgot you were a MORON and all your BULLSHIT is all a pile of CRAP.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, can we get back to our regularly scheduled debate?
Pthgar
Good God! Please, that had to be a joke right? I can't believe someone would be that rude. Mr. Prosperi, if you are still around after that, believe me if it was within my power to make an apology for another person I would.

Every other awful thing I've ever read on this forum just got a little less horrible because of that post.
Siege
That was actually pretty tame compared to some of the rants that manifest on the forums from time to time.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Siege)
That was actually pretty tame compared to some of the rants that manifest on the forums from time to time.

Yeah. He got a good start in the first paragraph -- 4 fucks and 4 shits go a long way in the rant-meter -- but the second paragraph just lacked the *oompf*. It could've used a well-placed motherfucker or two.
Siege
Although, the vampires + blood magic has a lot of potential for a house-rule game...

I certainly like it better than the Essence draining bit anyway.

-Siege
The Jopp
QUOTE (Siege)
Although, the vampires + blood magic has a lot of potential for a house-rule game...

I certainly like it better than the Essence draining bit anyway.

How bout a GEAS for blood mages? Essence Drain?

Mage must drink 1 liter of fresh blood per week or lose an essence point. Mage can regain essence point by drinking the base need + 1 extra liter per point.

Not sure how one would deal with the hightened attributes...
Kagetenshi
As a writer, I personally love doing this exact sort of thing (trying to figure out how things tie together, coming up with crazy conspiracy theories, etc.).
I do it in my own work. That I wrote the entirety of.
So yeah, I think it's entirely valid for people to be poring over details of Shadowrun that may or may not have been preplanned. As mentioned in another thread, with the number of freelancers hanging around the crazy ideas discussed here may potentially, some of them, become canon after having been proposed.

~J
JongWK
QUOTE (Euiscerati)

[...] Fucking Shitting [...] fucking [...] fucking [...] LMAO! [...] bullshitting [...] the most stupid post on this entire thread. [...] you morons [...] Lol. [...] fucking [...] bullshit [...] shit [...] you dopes [...]

[...] fucking [...]
[...] Jesus Christ. I'm glad I've downloaded all the SR books and didn't buy them. Better to be quiet and thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt. [...]


Oh boy, had this been a soccer match, you would have earned a red card and the stadium would be cheering the judge's name.

First you insult other Dumpshockers, and then you admit you are a pirate? What makes you think that developers should tell you "the Truth", when you don't even support the game or give them the respect they deserve? ohplease.gif

Grow up, marry, have kids, and try not to get geeked in the process.
Kagetenshi
Why are you advocating the continuation of Euiscerati's genetic material?

~J
Req
Future generations need a laugh too?
JongWK
Yeah, Captain Chaos needs someone to point at and say "See? Frag up and you could end up like that". devil.gif
Talia Invierno
[laugh]

How much do most of you invest in your jobs, as opposed to your hobbies?

Jobs have monetary compensation, which we have been trained over a lifetime to be all we expect from a job (in most cases). Hobbies, lacking the monetary motivation, require us to find a different one - and a far stronger one, more time-consuming, more compelling. Hobbyists will willingly and even gleefully argue over details that producers frequently pulled out of the air in deadline and shelved as "solved" years ago.

But why should there have been a greater Reason, an overarching Pattern? What obligation do the system's creators have to make one?

In real life, historians try to find such patterns in history all the time ... and yet those patterns, however detailed, however tied in, however well they account for every last verifiable detail, seem generally to lack any predictive ability (which would seem to be the ultimate test of a pattern).

Would that mean the conclusions of historians lack meaning?

We try to make sense of our own world all the time. In the same manner, as a hobby, we try to make sense of the Shadowrun/Earthdawn world. To dictate an absolute Right and Wrong for any identifiable pattern, be it in our own world or a fictional one, seems to suggest that the system in question must have come into existence with a particular Pattern in mind - and no other.

Yet if pattern there is, any pattern: might it not just as well lie within the observer as the observed? And still, a reflection - an expression - of what it means to be human. Human beings lived it, or (fictionally) created it. Human beings analyse it, and argue over it.

Would such a conclusion, moving the pattern from within the observed to within the observer, reduce the validity of the pattern's existence in any way? Could it?
Siege
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Why are you advocating the continuation of Euiscerati's genetic material?

~J

It's not like there's a choice here: pond scum manages to multiply on it's own.

-Siege
L.D
eek.gif

I'm gone for a couple of hours and this happens?! I mean WTF?!

1) I truly hope that Euiscerati gets at least a vacation, if not a permanent one. I mean come on!

2) Mr. Prosperi, if you're still reading this thread then I truly apologize for... well for this moron. And then I'd like to thank you for a great game. grinbig.gif
ThatPaolo
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I've always thought of the (extremely elegant) theories put forth by certain people on these forums more as field studies on how a world starts coming together when you keep writing about it, even if there is no vast "secret background story" from which all the novels and sourcebooks and everything draw.

Maybe one day I'll should update The Great Lie.

smile.gif
LouP
QUOTE (L.D)
eek.gif

2) Mr. Prosperi, if you're still reading this thread then I truly apologize for... well for this moron. And then I'd like to thank you for a great game.  grinbig.gif


Though I appreciate the sentiments, you have no need to apologize. It wasn't you. Besides, I have thick enough skin to take a few shots before being chased away. Trust me, I didn't go 6 years as the ED developer without learning how to accept flames. And along the way I've been know to flame a few folks myself.

And thanks for the kind words about ED. It was a fun game to work on. But to be honest, I'm surprised whenever I browse this forum when I realize how many people (and there may not be that many in fact) buy/read ED books *just to help them learn more about SR*. It makes me wonder what percentage of ED sales was/is to SR fans looking for "secret stuff".

Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who's done a bad job of lurking over the past couple of days....
L.D
QUOTE (LouP)
Though I appreciate the sentiments, you have no need to apologize. It wasn't you.


I know. But still...

Besides, since I didn't know how thick your skin is I was worried that he might have scared you away. I now that I finally have someone to ask questions about ED/SR, I'm not about to let you go that easily... too bad I can't think of any right now. I'll just blame it on the fact that it's getting late here and I'm a bit tired... yeah that's it! Tired.

Now if you'll just sit down in this chair. Oh, don't worry, the straps are just for show, they're in no way meant to hold you down. I promise. biggrin.gif devil.gif


QUOTE
And thanks for the kind words about ED. It was a fun game to work on. But to be honest, I'm surprised whenever I browse this forum when I realize how many people (and there may not be that many in fact) buy/read ED books *just to help them learn more about SR*. It makes me wonder what percentage of ED sales was/is to SR fans looking for "secret stuff".


You're more than welcome. I'm just sad that it took me so many years to get any ED books and start playing.

I think that a lot of people are drawn to ED because of the link to SR (and vice verse of course), but then they realise what a cool game it is and then they're stuck. smile.gif


QUOTE
Who's done a bad job of lurking over the past couple of days....


L.D
Who's glad Prosperi has done such a bad job of lurking and is hoping that he'll keep up the bad work. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ThatPaolo)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 28 2004, 05:12 AM)
I've always thought of the (extremely elegant) theories put forth by certain people on these forums more as field studies on how a world starts coming together when you keep writing about it, even if there is no vast "secret background story" from which all the novels and sourcebooks and everything draw.

Maybe one day I'll should update The Great Lie.

smile.gif

THAT was what made me think Battletech was Shadowrun's future!
You bastard nyahnyah.gif

~J
GoldenAri
I know I for one was drawn to ED because it was a cool game, and very different from D&D.

It wasn't until I had been play for about a year (making it 3 years since I started playing SR) that I found on a site somewhere a short list of things that hinted at the two being linked. I think that the next six or eight months of buy everything and anything SR or ED related, reading them, and discussing it with my friends was probably the most exciting time I ever had as a gamer.
Master Shake
This is the most bizarre thread Iíve ever seen on any message board. By far. Ha ha, jokes on me because Iíve purchased dozens of E/S books over the past decade. Even all the Earthdawn novels. Iíll assume that the poster is whom he claims to be, and that what he claims is correct. There are two ways to look at E/S. As a pessimist or as an optimist. The Pessimist looks at all the plot holes and rule inconsistencies and general vagaries and determines that there are too many mistakes to make real sense of these games. The Optimist looks at those same gaps and doesnít see holes, but sees mysteries. Clearly, Ancient History and I, and most of the viewers of this board fall into the Optimist camp. I find it shocking and a little outrageous that a game developer would feel it necessary, for whatever reason, to post that the mysteries werenít there, and the plot holes, were exactly that, plot holes. As I have said before, this is just a stupid, game, now revealed to be even more stupid than we imagined. Life goes on.

Even though Ancient History turned this thread into a trolling flame-fest, I respect his dedication to a game he clearly loves. So Iím going to back up my man Ancient History and agree with what our foul mouthed friend Mr. E had to say and agree that your post is insulting to the very people who care(d) about E/S. Iíve got his back and while my theories were just a hobby, you owe Ancient History an apology for your shoddy and disrespectful undermining of something that clearly matters a great deal to him. You donít go after a guy where he lives that like and that is far more insulting and irresponsible than anything else on this thread. It would be like going to a sports message board and the teams coach posting and telling all the fans that theyíre opinions and ideas and discussion about players, schedules and the future of the team are worthless. Of course they are, of course teams win on the field but it is the hobby of those who follow to discuss and be a part of what they enjoy.

People come to message boards like this to experience and discuss and believe and escape, if only for a while. It is irresponsible and insulting to make their passion seems foolish and impotent. For a fair-weather-fan like me, your blunt, unmagical revelations about E/S are disappointing, but there are other teams to root for. For a hard core fanatic like Ancient History who has spent hours upon hours annotating the E/S books for references to horrors and the like and maintaining a web site and a near constant presence on this board, thatís incredibly insensitive. Itís his kind of passion that fuels a game like E/S and to admit that through your own poor work and lack of effort that the mysteries we thought we saw, and he dedicated a large part of his life to uncovering, were nonexistent? What benefit is there in your saying that? To the game, to the discussion, to anything? That is one of the meanest acts you can ever find on a message board. Tell the fans to shut up and go home because theyíre not players so they donít matter. If we had missed the real clues, the real answers and you were going to correct us and reveal the right way to view the material, that would be different. But to post merely to say that nobody at FASA ever bothered with this stuff is weak. Very weak.

The Ďinvisible wallí is the distinction between the observer and the observed, the camera and the photographed. Games like E/S and this board are about the willing suspension of disbelief. To cross that line and step into this world only to undermine the very foundations of the disbelief and our reason for participating in a board like this is Ďfucking bullshití as the man said. To pretend to, or really not care enough about this to actually be sure about your revelations, but to pull this Ďif I remember crap,í and the insulting ĎIím surprised by interest in Earthdawn,í garbage is amazing. Ancient History and many other fans have spent time and money and effort to care about this stuff, and to just call all their efforts worthless and not give the reasons or explanations behind what was intended by FASA folks really sticks in my craw. Shows no respect for that kind of effort, for his trying to keep your stupid game alive and thriving and for the game itself that you admit to allowing/authoring massive contradictions in. We take this more seriously than you do, Ancient History more seriously than anyone and to just chop his legs off and undermine all his work and efforts and enjoyment is bullshit.

I find it disappointing, but very amusing that I was able to string clues together to answer fundamental questions about E/S Mythos that apparently no one took the time to develop in the first place. I found a tight pattern in all your randomness when all of these broken threads were just that, broken threads and not clues to a hidden order. Iím not sure what that means besides the fact that I gave the E/S stuff the benefit of the doubt which was my own fault. That was your point though, that our faith in the underlying intelligence of E/S was worthless. What a killjoy you are. Itís our own fault for taking this stuff seriously, and you had no shame in rather flippantly calling us all out as fools for actually taking your work seriously. Ancient History and I were arguing over the E/S books, what they actually stated. Itís clear that by your own admission, that even when the books specifically state something, that doesnít mean that was the intention. Meaning that any attempt to answer these mysteries is doomed to failure because they were never Ďmysteries,í but plot holes all along. Toucheí.

This began about Horrors and how to defeat them. Do I assume that Horrors and how to defeat them is another undeveloped plot hole that, we stupid, trusting mortals took to be as an interesting mystery? Over 20 pages about ĎHow to Stop the Horrors,í all the interest and enjoyment so many people took from BSíing about this game and you come along only to tell us not to care since nobody has gotten around to that yet stuff yet? If you or nobody else has gotten around to this stuff yet, havenít bothered to answer the questions most of us are interested in, what is the point of dropping bombs and admitting the serious flaws from this game? Weíre only here to take some enjoyment from this but instead of showing respect for the game, and the fans who care about it, you jump in with some flippant and back handed remarks only to undermine your credibility and the credibility of the game and basically stop the discussion cold. That kind of selfish thread jumping makes no sense to me because what you posted doesnít make you or the game look good and undermines if not destroys, the notion of E/S Optimism. Is that your intention? That we stop playing and paying attention to this game? Is this some passive aggressive attack at Fanpro or a sour taste left from FASA?

No comment about Horrors which was the point of this thread? OK. So HMHVV exists in the 6th world, it also existed in the 5th world and as a magical virus, itís origins must be in a previous age of Magic where this could first emerge. In E, the 4th age we see ĎVampiresí specifically mentioned several times and we have the blood drinking, daylight challenged killer stalking around. Vampires in the 4th Age, someone who clearly fits the Vampire type, ergo, first Vampire. Without the specific references to Vampires in E books, this wouldnít be convincing. But with Vampires stated as existing in E, this makes perfect sense. But now those Vampires in Earthdawn were all a mistake? Hey, all we can do is go by what is stated and if we canít trust what is specifically stated multiple times, we canít trust or draw any conclusions. Even if this wasnít the intention, it certainly fits with the 4th age being the time when HMHVV would have arisen. Such a massive coincidence with no intelligence behind it is bad enough, but to admit that, makes no sense. Would be easy enough to simply incorporate Eletheria as the first HMHVV since nobody got around to that anyway, this fits perfectly.

Same with Aztlan. All the facts fit. Itís clear I had a much higher opinion of the E/S developers than Mr Prosperi did, but that is my own fault. Parlainth, clearly based on the art of Teotihuacan, is in the middle of Russia. Knowing that there is no such city or art in that region, I assumed that the city, its ruins and art had to get out of Russia and where they fit historically. I assumed too much historical or artistic continuity than existed. Theran architecture is vague and does not resemble Parlainths clearly C American art and architecture. In the Theran Book, the city of Thera is depicted in mish-mash of styles, none of which appear C American. The art of Parlainth is very specific, very C American, and the only such artwork in the Earthdawn game line. Itís clearly another massive coincidence that this city alone was designed like the central city in Aztlan. I assumed that such important things would have a rationale behind them but thatís my own fault. I assumed that the disappearing and forgetting city which removes every trace of its existence was so stupid and absurd that it must have had a deeper truth behind it. Because who would put something so absurd in their game without real reason? Well, we know who. And this magical moving city that travels to astral safe locations and is inhabited by a crazy, rumored to be corrupt Dragon and her Immortal puppet, well, just another coincidence. Itís amazing that all of these random plot points could add up to nothing when they could easily add up to something great and interesting. I guess I have more imagination then the material can handle. If there was another, Ďrealí set of clues and ideas to explain Aztlan, that would be one thing. But if there isnít, then you have to wonder what FASA and Fanpro people spend their time doing if it isnít developing this stuff.

Now donít be a cock tease, now that youíve ruined the illusion of intelligence behind E/S, just go ahead and tell us everything. That is, if there is even anything to tell. Itís not like we have confidence in what we can find or what we can assume from reading the E/S books themselves, I guess youíll have to specifically tell us whatís going on. You started this by posting on a thread only to reveal, without any reason or background, why certain things were true or not. You canít expect to pull something like that and just walk away. You canít expect to pretend like you barely remember any of this stuff or the names or barely care about his stuff when you took it upon yourself to damage the entire reputation of E/S by your posts. Canít play coy now when you went out of your way to harsh our buzz, so go ahead and wow us with more mistakes and holes we never imagined from the E/S books. This was a thread about the E/S facts and making sense of them while your posts are only about how meaningless the E/S facts are. If youíre going to be brutal and ruin our willing suspension of disbelief by posting on this open and free Shadowrun forum only to shock and disappoint those of us who foolishly took the E/S books Ďseriously,í you owe us the Ďrealí deal. As much as you can remember that is. Or was this all about ruining our appreciation of E/S and nothing to do with what the Ďreal dealí is? Youíre only interested in dropping some napalm, ruining the party and departing? Is that your game now? I'm interesting in seeing which.

I liked believing that E/S was a brilliant game filled with subtle mysteries. Knowing that E/S was a random collection of underdeveloped ideas that were related only peripherally is depressing and funny at the same time. 'Caveat Emptor ' should have been the FASA slogan. What kind of person posts only to make himself and his colleagues look foolish and to undermine the belief that many want to put to this game? After all the weird twists and turns of this thread, thatís the saddest part of all. Ancient History, I appreciate your web site. I appreciate your history of Earthdawn and I appreciate the service you give to others who are interested in E/S Mythos. I hope you will continue your work. Iím clearly in the pessimist camp now so you can look for all my E/S stuff on ebay.

Ciao
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