The t'skrang used dragon magic to hibernate during the Scourge; it is possible they could have used a similiar magic to survive the downcycle...although the question would be "where."

There would be the slight problem that there was magic durning the scourge, but not during the downcycle. Most likely explanation is that they're some other type of creature which has yet to express.

Obviously in the 4th age T'skrang had to come from somewhere - which probably determines what happened to them. Main possibilities:

1) They 'expressed' from another species such as snakes, lizards, men, etc.

2) The were created by some being(s) such as the Dragons, Passions, etc.

The whole 'magic to reproduce' thing seems to imply option 2), but it's entirely possible that the species they express from doesn't require magic to reproduce whilst the T'skrang do.

So in the case of 1) being true, chances are T'skrang are still around waiting for the mana level to rise high enough to express - unless the species that they came from went extinct which is a possibility (albeit a remote one I'd say given numbers/distribution/most likely species to be T'skrang.) Main arguement against this comes from the fact that even if T'skrang have not generally expressed, I would have thought we'd have seen one or two spike babies (so to speak) somewhere in the SR universe.

In the case of option 2) chances are the T'skrang died out alongside magic, unless they took another form when magic went away and/or hibernated somehow. This begs the question why some haven't awoken and/or awakened and been spotted sneaking about the SR universe.

Could someone post JC's quote in DotSW, please? It might be of help.

Wow... what an interesting thread....

I haven't been by here in months, and what do I find but a debate about ED.

Even though Ancient History doesn't accept my word unless it's supported in print ( ), I thought I'd share some thoughts about this.

Essentially, neither theory posted by "Master Shake" is correct as far as FASA-published ED continuity is concerned.

First, The female elf is most definitely NOT the first carrier of HMHVV. Was the description written so as to allow for some question about her? Maybe (honestly I don't recall), but I can tell you with 100% certainty that she was NOT intended to be the first "vampire" in ED.

Second, Parlainth definitely did NOT "move to Mexico". It was shifted into astral space, but never physically moved anywhere. The similarities in architecture between Parlainth and Central American pyramids has more to do with the idea that Theran architecture was a mish-mash of that of many ancient cultures because it was the basis and inspiration for those cultures. Also, it looked cool.

As far as FASA ED is concerned, there is NO connection between Parlainth and Aztlan, or between Charcoalgrin and the corrupted dragon behind Aztechnology.

They're both interesting theories, but they aren't supported by the ED "canon" without some pretty wild and unsubstantiated guesswork.

Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Who's going back to lurking....

The Man himself hath spoken.

Who said jc is a shape shifter?What if it is a free spirit...One on the scale of the spirit of Denver?JC could be the spirit of the Amazon?That would give him a lot of mojo.


And UM could be a wolf,montian lion, or another spirit.

I mean,if I went around and called myself Sol,that doesn't make me the sun.JC, could be a shaman of some cat totem,for all the evidence I have seen.

The pryamid were built in logical ways.The way ,and form.Take this, what is the easiest form to make?Then, what form is easiest to remodel.They are the same.You have natives who build temples,in the easiest way to get the largest,and tallest buildings,with proof that some of these building were built,then added on too.

Death magic gains power expressly from the act of killing, whether the victims are willing or not whereas the Great Ghost Dance was magic on such a massive scale people were killed by participating willingly.

They were incidentals or collateral damage, depending on your point of view.

Just my two bits.

-Siege

Mr. Prosperi...love your stuff. You know I do. I just have to draw a line on what goes into the site.

JongWK: an agreement between the IEs and the GDs has been hinted at in several places, most notably "Worlds WIthout End" and "Portfolio of a Dragon" (Ehran's chit-chat with Lady of the Court).

Kagetenshi: Technically speaking, the Great Ghost Dance was ritual life magic. It was a ritual spell requiring the willing sacrifice of the casters. The Azzie equivalent would require massive unwilling sacrifices (case in point: the ritual at the end of the Dragonheart Trilogy).

Whoa. Solid answers. Weird.

Strange. Vindication from above [re Hecate]. Apparently it was obvious after all. (It just couldn't be seen for the trees.)

I may faint.

This is the line that made me believe that Lady Deigh was a late fourth worlder, and it's more ambiguous than I had remembered:

The poster known as Euiscerati has been suspended. Have a nice day.
-Admin

Harsh, man.

More like sour grapes.

Edit: I want to make it clear that my post was in reference to the content of Euiscerati's post, and not the fact that an Administrator suspended him.

This is why I never tried making a page on White Wolf games.

Hey E! Chill out man. Take a breather. 's all good. Lou's just tryin' to do all of us a favor by clearin' up a few mysteries (at least until FanPro/RedBrick/LRG changes something).

I thought I'd cut Euiscerati's rant down to size, so those who want to know what it's about, but don't have time to read through it all, can have a clue.

Good God! Please, that had to be a joke right? I can't believe someone would be that rude. Mr. Prosperi, if you are still around after that, believe me if it was within my power to make an apology for another person I would.

Every other awful thing I've ever read on this forum just got a little less horrible because of that post.

That was actually pretty tame compared to some of the rants that manifest on the forums from time to time.

-Siege

Although, the vampires + blood magic has a lot of potential for a house-rule game...

I certainly like it better than the Essence draining bit anyway.

-Siege

As a writer, I personally love doing this exact sort of thing (trying to figure out how things tie together, coming up with crazy conspiracy theories, etc.).
I do it in my own work. That I wrote the entirety of.
So yeah, I think it's entirely valid for people to be poring over details of Shadowrun that may or may not have been preplanned. As mentioned in another thread, with the number of freelancers hanging around the crazy ideas discussed here may potentially, some of them, become canon after having been proposed.

~J

Why are you advocating the continuation of Euiscerati's genetic material?

~J

Future generations need a laugh too?

Yeah, Captain Chaos needs someone to point at and say "See? Frag up and you could end up like that".

[laugh]

How much do most of you invest in your jobs, as opposed to your hobbies?

Jobs have monetary compensation, which we have been trained over a lifetime to be all we expect from a job (in most cases). Hobbies, lacking the monetary motivation, require us to find a different one - and a far stronger one, more time-consuming, more compelling. Hobbyists will willingly and even gleefully argue over details that producers frequently pulled out of the air in deadline and shelved as "solved" years ago.

But why should there have been a greater Reason, an overarching Pattern? What obligation do the system's creators have to make one?

In real life, historians try to find such patterns in history all the time ... and yet those patterns, however detailed, however tied in, however well they account for every last verifiable detail, seem generally to lack any predictive ability (which would seem to be the ultimate test of a pattern).

Would that mean the conclusions of historians lack meaning?

We try to make sense of our own world all the time. In the same manner, as a hobby, we try to make sense of the Shadowrun/Earthdawn world. To dictate an absolute Right and Wrong for any identifiable pattern, be it in our own world or a fictional one, seems to suggest that the system in question must have come into existence with a particular Pattern in mind - and no other.

Yet if pattern there is, any pattern: might it not just as well lie within the observer as the observed? And still, a reflection - an expression - of what it means to be human. Human beings lived it, or (fictionally) created it. Human beings analyse it, and argue over it.

Would such a conclusion, moving the pattern from within the observed to within the observer, reduce the validity of the pattern's existence in any way? Could it?

I'm gone for a couple of hours and this happens?! I mean WTF?!

1) I truly hope that Euiscerati gets at least a vacation, if not a permanent one. I mean come on!

2) Mr. Prosperi, if you're still reading this thread then I truly apologize for... well for this moron. And then I'd like to thank you for a great game.

I know I for one was drawn to ED because it was a cool game, and very different from D&D.

It wasn't until I had been play for about a year (making it 3 years since I started playing SR) that I found on a site somewhere a short list of things that hinted at the two being linked. I think that the next six or eight months of buy everything and anything SR or ED related, reading them, and discussing it with my friends was probably the most exciting time I ever had as a gamer.

This is the most bizarre thread I’ve ever seen on any message board. By far. Ha ha, jokes on me because I’ve purchased dozens of E/S books over the past decade. Even all the Earthdawn novels. I’ll assume that the poster is whom he claims to be, and that what he claims is correct. There are two ways to look at E/S. As a pessimist or as an optimist. The Pessimist looks at all the plot holes and rule inconsistencies and general vagaries and determines that there are too many mistakes to make real sense of these games. The Optimist looks at those same gaps and doesn’t see holes, but sees mysteries. Clearly, Ancient History and I, and most of the viewers of this board fall into the Optimist camp. I find it shocking and a little outrageous that a game developer would feel it necessary, for whatever reason, to post that the mysteries weren’t there, and the plot holes, were exactly that, plot holes. As I have said before, this is just a stupid, game, now revealed to be even more stupid than we imagined. Life goes on.

Even though Ancient History turned this thread into a trolling flame-fest, I respect his dedication to a game he clearly loves. So I’m going to back up my man Ancient History and agree with what our foul mouthed friend Mr. E had to say and agree that your post is insulting to the very people who care(d) about E/S. I’ve got his back and while my theories were just a hobby, you owe Ancient History an apology for your shoddy and disrespectful undermining of something that clearly matters a great deal to him. You don’t go after a guy where he lives that like and that is far more insulting and irresponsible than anything else on this thread. It would be like going to a sports message board and the teams coach posting and telling all the fans that they’re opinions and ideas and discussion about players, schedules and the future of the team are worthless. Of course they are, of course teams win on the field but it is the hobby of those who follow to discuss and be a part of what they enjoy.

People come to message boards like this to experience and discuss and believe and escape, if only for a while. It is irresponsible and insulting to make their passion seems foolish and impotent. For a fair-weather-fan like me, your blunt, unmagical revelations about E/S are disappointing, but there are other teams to root for. For a hard core fanatic like Ancient History who has spent hours upon hours annotating the E/S books for references to horrors and the like and maintaining a web site and a near constant presence on this board, that’s incredibly insensitive. It’s his kind of passion that fuels a game like E/S and to admit that through your own poor work and lack of effort that the mysteries we thought we saw, and he dedicated a large part of his life to uncovering, were nonexistent? What benefit is there in your saying that? To the game, to the discussion, to anything? That is one of the meanest acts you can ever find on a message board. Tell the fans to shut up and go home because they’re not players so they don’t matter. If we had missed the real clues, the real answers and you were going to correct us and reveal the right way to view the material, that would be different. But to post merely to say that nobody at FASA ever bothered with this stuff is weak. Very weak.

The ‘invisible wall’ is the distinction between the observer and the observed, the camera and the photographed. Games like E/S and this board are about the willing suspension of disbelief. To cross that line and step into this world only to undermine the very foundations of the disbelief and our reason for participating in a board like this is ‘fucking bullshit’ as the man said. To pretend to, or really not care enough about this to actually be sure about your revelations, but to pull this ‘if I remember crap,’ and the insulting ‘I’m surprised by interest in Earthdawn,’ garbage is amazing. Ancient History and many other fans have spent time and money and effort to care about this stuff, and to just call all their efforts worthless and not give the reasons or explanations behind what was intended by FASA folks really sticks in my craw. Shows no respect for that kind of effort, for his trying to keep your stupid game alive and thriving and for the game itself that you admit to allowing/authoring massive contradictions in. We take this more seriously than you do, Ancient History more seriously than anyone and to just chop his legs off and undermine all his work and efforts and enjoyment is bullshit.

I find it disappointing, but very amusing that I was able to string clues together to answer fundamental questions about E/S Mythos that apparently no one took the time to develop in the first place. I found a tight pattern in all your randomness when all of these broken threads were just that, broken threads and not clues to a hidden order. I’m not sure what that means besides the fact that I gave the E/S stuff the benefit of the doubt which was my own fault. That was your point though, that our faith in the underlying intelligence of E/S was worthless. What a killjoy you are. It’s our own fault for taking this stuff seriously, and you had no shame in rather flippantly calling us all out as fools for actually taking your work seriously. Ancient History and I were arguing over the E/S books, what they actually stated. It’s clear that by your own admission, that even when the books specifically state something, that doesn’t mean that was the intention. Meaning that any attempt to answer these mysteries is doomed to failure because they were never ‘mysteries,’ but plot holes all along. Touche’.

This began about Horrors and how to defeat them. Do I assume that Horrors and how to defeat them is another undeveloped plot hole that, we stupid, trusting mortals took to be as an interesting mystery? Over 20 pages about ‘How to Stop the Horrors,’ all the interest and enjoyment so many people took from BS’ing about this game and you come along only to tell us not to care since nobody has gotten around to that yet stuff yet? If you or nobody else has gotten around to this stuff yet, haven’t bothered to answer the questions most of us are interested in, what is the point of dropping bombs and admitting the serious flaws from this game? We’re only here to take some enjoyment from this but instead of showing respect for the game, and the fans who care about it, you jump in with some flippant and back handed remarks only to undermine your credibility and the credibility of the game and basically stop the discussion cold. That kind of selfish thread jumping makes no sense to me because what you posted doesn’t make you or the game look good and undermines if not destroys, the notion of E/S Optimism. Is that your intention? That we stop playing and paying attention to this game? Is this some passive aggressive attack at Fanpro or a sour taste left from FASA?

No comment about Horrors which was the point of this thread? OK. So HMHVV exists in the 6th world, it also existed in the 5th world and as a magical virus, it’s origins must be in a previous age of Magic where this could first emerge. In E, the 4th age we see ‘Vampires’ specifically mentioned several times and we have the blood drinking, daylight challenged killer stalking around. Vampires in the 4th Age, someone who clearly fits the Vampire type, ergo, first Vampire. Without the specific references to Vampires in E books, this wouldn’t be convincing. But with Vampires stated as existing in E, this makes perfect sense. But now those Vampires in Earthdawn were all a mistake? Hey, all we can do is go by what is stated and if we can’t trust what is specifically stated multiple times, we can’t trust or draw any conclusions. Even if this wasn’t the intention, it certainly fits with the 4th age being the time when HMHVV would have arisen. Such a massive coincidence with no intelligence behind it is bad enough, but to admit that, makes no sense. Would be easy enough to simply incorporate Eletheria as the first HMHVV since nobody got around to that anyway, this fits perfectly.

Same with Aztlan. All the facts fit. It’s clear I had a much higher opinion of the E/S developers than Mr Prosperi did, but that is my own fault. Parlainth, clearly based on the art of Teotihuacan, is in the middle of Russia. Knowing that there is no such city or art in that region, I assumed that the city, its ruins and art had to get out of Russia and where they fit historically. I assumed too much historical or artistic continuity than existed. Theran architecture is vague and does not resemble Parlainths clearly C American art and architecture. In the Theran Book, the city of Thera is depicted in mish-mash of styles, none of which appear C American. The art of Parlainth is very specific, very C American, and the only such artwork in the Earthdawn game line. It’s clearly another massive coincidence that this city alone was designed like the central city in Aztlan. I assumed that such important things would have a rationale behind them but that’s my own fault. I assumed that the disappearing and forgetting city which removes every trace of its existence was so stupid and absurd that it must have had a deeper truth behind it. Because who would put something so absurd in their game without real reason? Well, we know who. And this magical moving city that travels to astral safe locations and is inhabited by a crazy, rumored to be corrupt Dragon and her Immortal puppet, well, just another coincidence. It’s amazing that all of these random plot points could add up to nothing when they could easily add up to something great and interesting. I guess I have more imagination then the material can handle. If there was another, ‘real’ set of clues and ideas to explain Aztlan, that would be one thing. But if there isn’t, then you have to wonder what FASA and Fanpro people spend their time doing if it isn’t developing this stuff.

Now don’t be a cock tease, now that you’ve ruined the illusion of intelligence behind E/S, just go ahead and tell us everything. That is, if there is even anything to tell. It’s not like we have confidence in what we can find or what we can assume from reading the E/S books themselves, I guess you’ll have to specifically tell us what’s going on. You started this by posting on a thread only to reveal, without any reason or background, why certain things were true or not. You can’t expect to pull something like that and just walk away. You can’t expect to pretend like you barely remember any of this stuff or the names or barely care about his stuff when you took it upon yourself to damage the entire reputation of E/S by your posts. Can’t play coy now when you went out of your way to harsh our buzz, so go ahead and wow us with more mistakes and holes we never imagined from the E/S books. This was a thread about the E/S facts and making sense of them while your posts are only about how meaningless the E/S facts are. If you’re going to be brutal and ruin our willing suspension of disbelief by posting on this open and free Shadowrun forum only to shock and disappoint those of us who foolishly took the E/S books ‘seriously,’ you owe us the ‘real’ deal. As much as you can remember that is. Or was this all about ruining our appreciation of E/S and nothing to do with what the ‘real deal’ is? You’re only interested in dropping some napalm, ruining the party and departing? Is that your game now? I'm interesting in seeing which.

I liked believing that E/S was a brilliant game filled with subtle mysteries. Knowing that E/S was a random collection of underdeveloped ideas that were related only peripherally is depressing and funny at the same time. 'Caveat Emptor ' should have been the FASA slogan. What kind of person posts only to make himself and his colleagues look foolish and to undermine the belief that many want to put to this game? After all the weird twists and turns of this thread, that’s the saddest part of all. Ancient History, I appreciate your web site. I appreciate your history of Earthdawn and I appreciate the service you give to others who are interested in E/S Mythos. I hope you will continue your work. I’m clearly in the pessimist camp now so you can look for all my E/S stuff on ebay.

Ciao