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kevyn668
My two cents on the Shake/AH spat:

I can't speak for everyone but the main reason I respect AH is on rare occasions he is wrong, thery're few and often trivial, but he is always qick to admit his error. Thats more than I can say for a lot of us, myself included.

Other than that, I like some of Shake's ideas. smile.gif
Adam
QUOTE (Pthgar)
I remember readining an interview a few years ago, I think it was on the DS Archive, with Mike Mulvihill. I seem to remember him saying that the T'Skrang and Obsidimen didn't make it through the down cycle. I'll keep trying to find it.

That was in the interview Mike did with The Shadowrun Supplemental; you remember correctly.
kevyn668
What? No link? Tease. biggrin.gif
Zeel De Mort
Having very few ED books, and not being an expert, I can't find you a quote or anything, but I think Dwarves, Elves, Orks and Trolls need less magic to come into being, whereas Obsidimen, T'skrang etc need more.

The best I can find at the moment is p31 of the ED2 main rulebook under "Kinship Between the Species":

"The elves possess fragmentary records claiming that dwarfs, elves, humans orks and trolls are profoundly similar members of a single, as-yet-unnamed species. Most scholars no longer accept this opinion as valid. Theran scholars, especially those in the school of Darok Thanalea, believe that the current high level of magic increases the differences between the races."

Draw from that what conclusions you will, but I guess you could say that metatypes that are further removed from humans (e.g. guys made of stone, repltian weirdos with beaks and stuff) need more magic to appear. Or alternatively that they are a completely difference race, as opposed to the current metatypes, which are related to humans.

Trolls and orks appeared a little later than elves and dwarves in SR didn't they? Not sure what you can say about that, but another wee fact for you!

Carry on...
Ancient History
T'skrang require magic for their reproduction process; and in fact appear to be dwindling in the ED era.

Obsidimen are more akin to permanently manifested elemental earth spirits than actual people, though they are stony flesh and blood.

On hindsight, I would say that I was a bit of an ass when remarking on Shake's theory. I have a tendancy to be critical, and I thought some of his suppositions too large based on the given evidence.

Danke for all the support though. embarrassed.gif
sable twilight
QUOTE (Ancient History)
T'skrang require magic for their reproduction process; and in fact appear to be dwindling in the ED era.

Any ideas how they survived the 3rd Age? Or are they soley products of the 4th?
Pthgar
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Jan 16 2004, 07:35 PM)
What? No link? Tease.  biggrin.gif

I looked. The back issues of TSS (1-8 ) are not yet available but are being compiled in one Best Of volume.

By the way, thanks for the confirmation.
Ancient History
QUOTE (sable twilight)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 16 2004, 03:46 PM)
T'skrang require magic for their reproduction process; and in fact appear to be dwindling in the ED era.

Any ideas how they survived the 3rd Age? Or are they soley products of the 4th?

I just reckoned that they either bred in with the human population or just appeared like Critters did (ever wonder where Woolly Mammoths come?)

'Course, they might just be a draconic servitor experiment, but they're a tad wide-spread for that.
sable twilight
QUOTE (Ancient History)
QUOTE (sable twilight @ Jan 16 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 16 2004, 03:46 PM)
T'skrang require magic for their reproduction process; and in fact appear to be dwindling in the ED era.

Any ideas how they survived the 3rd Age? Or are they soley products of the 4th?

I just reckoned that they either bred in with the human population or just appeared like Critters did (ever wonder where Woolly Mammoths come?)

'Course, they might just be a draconic servitor experiment, but they're a tad wide-spread for that.

Mammonths? As species that went exctinct some 10,000 yeas ago? Or did they reappear in SR? Mammoths, I imagine, would have come from the same place the rest of the animals that lived durring the 1st age and then died out sometime around the end of the 1st Age or begining of the 2nd came from.
Ancient History
Mammoths are alive and well in SR. In Siberia.
Anguirel
QUOTE (Master Shake)
1-Adepts Way- Under the description of the Nethermancer, a mage class that focuses on metaplanes of the dead and horrors, the writer mentions that, in theory, the horrors dimension can be sealed off from the E/S world. It takes the form of an unfinished manuscript and an unfinished section titled 'On Cosmology and Other Dimensions' is unfinished but referred to in the next section. It says 'As I have described in the preceding passage, finally sealing off our dimension from the Horrors will only be possible once we have answered the 8 questions of Jsona Var. Until then, we must rely on countermeasures to fight the Horrors after they have crossed the threshold to our world.'

So forget about conquering them, but if 8 mystical questions can be answered the Horrors can be shut out forever, in high or low magic I assume.

Not knowing anything else except what was revealed in this thread, I'd say these "8 mytsical questions" are much more likely similar to, say, questions required for the formation of the Grand Unified Theory and less like questions asked by Monty Python's Bridgekeeper.

Which is to say, you don't just go answering these questions and *poof* the Horrors are sealed off. Question one could very well be "How do you permanently kill a Horror?" If you can answer that, you may be able to find a way to do it to all of them. I can find others that would guide a theory towards possibly cutting off the Horrors permanently. "What, precisely, gives the Horrors access to our plane?" "Why are Horrors prevented access during lower-mana periods?" "Can one artificially lower the mana level of the world, and if so, how?" "How are the Metaplanes connected?" And so on... the text would have outlined 8 requisite questions that, assuming answers exist, would yield the knowledge necessary to enact a seal -- though actually doing so may be an enormous undertaking in and of itself.

In regards to the Great Pattern, the Horrible Pattern and the "lands of the West"... The True Pattern of the Earth could be somewhere between that of the Horrors and that of Eden or Heaven or whatever you wish to consider the lands of the West. When the Scourge comes, the pattern is linked more closely to the Horrors. When Blood/Death magic is used, the Pattern is subtly altered to link it closer to that of the Horrors (such as the Blood Mage Gestalt in use in the Dragon Heart Trilogy). If we were to forcibly alter the True Pattern towards the other side, to link it inextricably with the Lands of the West, it would no longer be accessible to the Horrors. Those who believe in balance would find such a prospect nearly as unpalatable as allowing the Horrors a final and utter victory over the world.
Master Shake
Should I even respond? Irony that powerful deserves comment. Again, I'm not interested in being an active poster on this board as I have other concerns. The reason I posted was to bring some Earthdawn perspective to a Shadowrun Board and thread about Horrors. The answers lie in Earthdawn, and if someone had brought up the Earthdawn answers to Horrors, I would have had no reason to post.

They fight Horrors in Earthdawn, but they can't defeat them, and that was my point. Total Victory can only come through the various metaphysical answers I quoted directly from Earthdawn. I'm sure you could find more in Earthdawn regarding the ultimate victory vs the Horrors than I posted, but I saw no posts, by anyone, bringing up these obvious ideas from Earthdawn. I was polite and precise and didn't dignify some of the irrational and hysterical protests in kind. Instead, I gave those people the benefit of the doubt and tried to re-explain the not-so-difficult points. I never made emphatic, absolute claims, unlike some others, that an idea or claim could or couldn't be 'true.' I specifically stated that these were conclusions that I drew from my contacts with the source books and that I was open to any contradicting info or supplemental data. I calmly and rationally explained how and why I concluded this, citing the sources themselves, not once, but twice. I do not participate in message boards like this because they are a magnet for bores and fools who open their mouths, or post on threads, and remove all doubt. I guess my mommy raised me better, and consequently I expect better than projected anger and confusion from unstable minds.

But the anger and faux confusion of some was not caused by my lack of precision in posting, nor from my lack of courtesy in replying to boorish, nasty and ignorant posts and trying to remedy that ugliness, but from an infantile insecurity of some. It was a powerful observation that makes even more sense now. My post matters more to some than to myself because they felt threatened by my post. Perhaps my use of 'dick' was out of line, it's clear that this isn't just some rambling, hysterical lunatic who posts random anger on a perfectly calm and precise thread, but there is a psychological explanation which some are clearly sympathtic towards. The problem is that this threat was perceived, not that it exists outside of an insecure mind. I was merely posting clear and well argued theories based on the internal facts of the E/S Game World. It was others who jumped on the thread with anger and hysteria and made this a problem. This is a message board about Shadowrun and all I was doing was posting about E/S in relation to Horrors. If some strangers post on a message board that has nothing to do with you, is so personally insulting, it's clear that you have bigger problems than what the strangers on a message board think of you. Whatever claims you may make in your personal understandings of this meaningless game, allowing others to do the same shouldn't be considered a threat or a personal insult to you.

That site you referred to is there and I understand that a great deal of effort goes into making such a site, and I still can't believe that anyone could read the passage in 'Blood Wood' about the first HMHVV carrier and not be convinced. But I don't see anything on there about the 8 Questions of Jsona Van or Leonardo's Great Work being to unite heaven and earth or anything about the metaphysics of the E/S Mythos, or any theories or attempts to explain Aztlan and the forces behind it. So what is so offensive about my perfectly logical and respectful posts if they don't contradict or even refer to anything that exists on that rather limited site? Is it that you are embarrassed that you didn't realize these things first or that with all your efforts you failed to notice these things? If that is the case, denying them once they are obvious only makes you look foolish. This is only a game after all and it appears that your efforts merit some respect from some posters, though I'd never know it from your posts on this thread.

You're familiar with speculation and trying to figure out who could be who and what could be what between E and S, so your knee-jerk complaints about my theories about the relations between E and S are shallow and irrational. I figured that since you misunderstood and misquoted about Creana, The Great Pattern, Leonardo, Aztlan, etc. that you were ignorant of the source materials. Reading your replies which were as emphatic as they were contrary to the stated E/S facts, I merely assumed you had no first hand knowledge of those books and their contents. That is a perfectly logical conclusion on my part based on your posts which appear to show a poor understanding of Earthdawn. Be more thorough and get your posts right and peopel won't assume you're confused. I merely skimmed these documents and I recognized the patterns and connections. I assumed that if someone had read them all, cover-to-cover, that they would have an even better understanding of them then myself. The claim that someone could read all the books, cover to cover and not see these things that I see just flipping through the books, and worse, be badly misinformed of what it does say, never occurred to me. I am willing to assume that your emphatic misunderstandings and misquotes of the E material was caused not by ignorance of those things or the books, but on a heightened emotional state which can lead to gross mistakes.

Again, your personal issues are what stands out most to me from your posts, and so this isn't about what I posted but about yourself. That may seem corny or lame, but you're the one who's making this personal, there was nothing personal or irrational in my posts, but you brought anger and irrationality and foolishness to the thread. Why? I'm sure you're perfectly normal guy most of the time, but you must realize that it is your insecurity about being shown up which caused your actions which are surely uncharacteristic for you. I doubt you're a dickhead in real life, but that doesn't mean you should be a dick on a message board. Who you are as a person, your identity, should be internal and something you take with you everywhere you are. You should be the same guy on a message board as you are in life. Nobody likes a jerk, so calm down and realize what made you look so foolish and show some respect and decency. Look at my posts and see the fairness, precision, dignity and citing sources in a non-dogmatic way because that's what I expect in turn. Making a jackass of yourself on a board of strangers is just as bad as if you actually knew us. Your momma raised you better than that, I'm sure.

The difference between a good answer and a bad answer is that a good answer fits the facts and isn't contradicted by it while a bad answer has no connection to any facts and is mere speculation. Ultimately it's a correct answer we're going for, but those can be hard to define. It's possible that a good answer, despite all the evidence backing it up to be wrong and a bad answer, despite the total lack of corroboration, to be right. That's life. When trying to form theories or ideas about E/S, it's the internal 'facts' that appear in the source books that matter. So the difference between a good E/S answer and abad E/S answer is one of connection to the 'facts' of the E/S Mythos. Now, FASA doesn't make it obvious so it takes some detective work to try to put names to faces, etc. I'm certainly not the first or only person to make theories about the 'correct FASA answers,' as the contents of some web sites will attest. So if this is a hobby we share, we must focus on the facts and try to draw them together. You can look at any single fact that backs up a claim, and by itself, it won't be enough. But there aren't individual clues that lead to answers, a single piece that leads to the correct answer is simply stating the correct answer itself. So it always involves connecting dots, the question is, how well you understand the entire Mythos which gives you perspective on how the dots all fit together. To the FASA folks who wrote this stuff, it makes sense because they understand their intentions. To figure out what their 'correct answers' are, you have to have imagination because if it was obvious, it would be known already. So how much do you understand and how much can you imagine determines what you'll find.

Despite the unnecessary confusion and anger, I was clear in bringing the Earthdawn perspective on Horrors to the discussion. I'm sure there are more sources of how to stop Horrors, but I have only skimmed the books and those are what stood out to me. Those are all internal facts of the E/S world and thus constitute a good answer in regards on how to stop the horrors. You can fight them, but not conquer them but you can shut off the Horrors dimension from the Great Pattern. Saying that Horrors can be killed by chocolate would be a bad answer because there are no internal facts in either E or S that suggest chocolate would kill Horrors. Since we don't know the correct answer and are theorizing based on the existing clues, it is possible that chocolate is the final answer after all. Saying that Horrors could be shut off with true love and kindness, in effect countering their hate and misery would be a good answer. Even though there is nothing that states Horrors could be stopped that way, the idea has an internal metaphysical consistency and you could almost shrug and say '...maybe.' But in comparing good answers, you see which is more tied to the facts, which has more of a basis. While love might make some sense, the Great Work and the 8 questions of Jsona Van are better because they are tied directly to specific game facts.

Same with the blunt description of the first vampire. Maybe she wasn't the first Vampire but how she is described as having all the classical attributes of a Vampire means that is the obvious conclusion and a good answer. Saying that it must be someone else is a bad answer because we have specific game facts supporting one claim, while there is no other evidence, other internal game facts which would ascribe HMHVV to anything else. So she being the first Vampire is a very good answer considering the bluntness of the description while claiming that she isn't the first HMHVV carrier is a poor answer because it requires us to ignore the existing evidence for a vague speculation. If there was another mention in E of blood drinking, super strong people who only came out during the night, then the claim that the woman from the Blood Wood wasn't the first HMHVV might have some merit. But the point is, in order to dismiss something, you must have, at least equal evidence of another answer to the same question or if not evidence for the answer, evidence that directly contradicts the answer. So you must have something at least as good, or something that totally destroys the theory to make a rational claim. Anything less is irrational and empty speculation.

My explanation of Aztlan is a very good answer, though I have admitted, not necessarily the 'correct' one. Just the one that seems obvious to me. It ties existing threads, important threads from one game to the other. From Horrors and Aztlan to the Corrupt Dragon and Juan, the seemingly human immortal. I have thoroughly explained the basis for this theory and so won't repeat that all now, or maybe I will. I have no problem being honest and admitting that I can be wrong, that is what allows me to learn and change. Denial is the biggest obstacle to learning. The fundamental basis for my Aztlan theory is based not one asingle question, but multiple questions. It isn't the answer that seems to confuse people, but the fact that it answers many questions at once.

1-The very specific art and architecture of Parlainth which is clearly C American. FASA didn't go through the trouble of developing the look of any city to the extent of Parlainth, and there is a reason for that, so what is it?

2-The story of a disappearing city isn't that absurd but the idea of the city being wiped from everyone's memory and from all written records is really absurd. That seems at odds with the scope of magic in E/S, the idea of all memories and records of a place and all the people associated with it bheing erased is, perhaps, the most absurd claim any fantasy game would make. Not only the scope and power of something like that to ONLY effect something rather mundane and unnecessary like memories(overcoming the Will of every Dragon and Horror along with all the mortals on the planet for one small city should strike anyone as absurd) and how it stands out among all the other claims and abilities of E/S magic, but how unnecessary it is. To make such a bold and absurd claim in a game has a purpose, and it's the total memory loss that really strikes me. Transfer the city to a protected Astral pocket, that's not so crazy. There's no reason to have the city totally forgotten and if you were the editor finalizing the ideas, etc, you wouldn't allow such absurdity that clearly stands out from the rest fo the game world without a clear reason. After all other cities survived the Horrors without being forgotten, so why such a big deal about this 'Forgotten City?'

3-Why is Central America so special and unique? The scourge was global, as was the infestation of Horrors. So why do the Mayans and Aztecs know all about the cycles of magic and specifically when they occur and the Horrors while the rest of the world doesn't? We must conclude that knowledge of the Horrors was purposefully stamped out all over the globe in the E/S Mythos to account for the Greeks, Egyptians, etc not having nay lore about it. That makes sense considering that Dragons and IE don't want anyone to know about this stuff. So how did the Mayans and Aztecs know, basically everything, while nobody else did? The IE's and Dragons were thorough in covering up the truth all over the globe, so did they forget about Central America? Or maybe the natives were brainwashed and forced to forget but the Mayans and Aztecs found these answers later on, after the IE's and Dragons had left.

4-Where did the Azzies get their dangerous magical knowledge? They knew about and were working to bring about the Horrors years before Oscuro nearly succeeded. They had built up a whole nation and religion to be the basis for blood magic and death magic which was the foundation for their pro-horror servitude. They had knowledge and magic that only Dragons and IE's knew.

5-What is the deal with Teotihuacan, stated as the most sacred heart of Aztlan and the new Pro-Horror regime in T:AL? It has great prominence, but the city was found already existing, yet abandoned by its occupiers who are a mystery as to their identity and motivations. It is specifically described as one of the most powerful magical places on earth, 'City of the Gods,' that is so exclusive/dangerous there are elite guards protecting it at all times from prying eyes and any summoning near it. It is so powerful, but the Azzie priests and magicians stay largely away. Azzies not exploiting the most powerful site in their own country? There's clearly some special case and reason for that.

6-What's the deal with the Dragon said to be behind Aztechnology? A large, corrupted Eastern Dragon is spotted entering Aztec HQ. While a specific type of Dragon is mentioned, that Eastern Dragon could be THE Dragon behind Aztec, or perhaps A Dragon working for/with THE Dragon.

7-Who is Juan, the Azzies Head man? Why do Ehran and Hualpa, when they meet him face to face, sense a powerful presence that is associated with powerful Immortals like themselves, but he appears as a mundane human, even though they know Juan uses magic? Who could be so powerful that Ehren and Hualpa couldn't pierce his aura, yet be so clearly human. Why would such a powerful person be associated with Aztec in such a public way and yet be such a mystery to other Immortals?

Those are the main questions that are answered with my theory. Any one of those, taken by itself can be dismissed, but it's the overall pattern that is important. A clearly C American city based, unashamedly ON Teotihuacan in Russia. Now, how could a Russian city be in Mexico? Well, the city has a history of getting up and disappearing in its entirety which fits nicely. Plus the city has the absurd habit of causing everyone to forget about it which fits nicely with Teotihuacan being a pre-existing, but abandoned city of great power and influence who's dark secrets survived the purge of the IE's and Dragons who wiped all other records of the scourge and horrors and cycles from the records. How could they have forgotten about Teotihuacan when they were so thorough everywhere else? Because they forgot about it. Teotihuacan and its forgotten, yet still existing dark knowledge was waiting to be discovered by local C American tribes. They did find it and based their architecture, religious rites and calendar on what they found there. That's why that area, and nowhere else, knew precisely the dates of the already calculated cycles of magic, knew of the Horrors who would ravage the earth. It requires a special case for Central Americans, and they alone to have such complete understanding. The kind they could find in the abandoned and extremely powerful 'Forgotten City' of Parlainth. How can you explain Teotihuacan being so powerful and dangerous and central to the Azzies if it was just some ruin, like other ruins. Teotihuacan is very special and unique, and this certainly explains 'why?'

And who is the Mistress of Parlainth? Why a powerful Dragon who is rumored to have been corrupted and in the service of the Horrible Pattern. Who is rumored to be behind Aztechnology? A corrupt Dragon that serves the Horrors. Charcoalgrin was a powerful magician, capable of the rituals that transported Parlainth and erased its memories in the first place, and certainly capable of teaching blood and death magic. Since she was inside of Parlainth when she transported the city to find Erypimese, she was immune from the forgetting but the rest of the world forgot. She and Erypimese would be immune, but in the service of Horrors so they had the dark secrets of Parlainth all to themselves. Erypimese was a powerful human magician who Charcoalgrin made immortal for practical purposes through her powerful magic. Of all the people Juan could be, an immortal, human but unknown and inscrutable to the IE's and Dragons, Erypimese is clearly the best answer, even ignoring all the other evidence that ties him in. IE's and Dragons are an exclusive club, they know each other, they're related to each other. How could such a powerful human immortal, who's power might even eclipse Ehren and Hualpa have gone unnoticed? If he was in the Forgotten City when everyone forgot about him, that could explain it.

But the Forgotten City isn't in the astral anymore and so IE's and Dragons who had memories of it should have remembered since that's what happened when Parlainth returned from the scourge. Yes, but the spell that transformed Parlainth and erased all memory and records required a high level of magic. Great spells and rituals can only be performed in high levels of magic. The magic that transported Parlainth and erased memories and also restored memories and records once it appeared requires more magic than there is currently in S. So figure that Parlainth was shunted out of the Astral as an unnatural body that didn't belong in the Astral when the magic level weakened to the point where a real city could no longer be held in the Astral. When it was kicked out of the Astral, the magic level was already below the threshold required for the Great Parlainth Ritual Spell to activate and return all memories and records to where they were before. So as the magic rises, it will eventually reach the point where the Parlainth spell will activate, not transferring itself automatically, but automatically returning memories and records of its existence. Then the IE's and Dragons will suddenly realize what's going on in Aztlan and who's behind it as the magic effect that has already triggered, but doesn't have the magic level to activate, activates.

Now this may not be the 'correct' answer, but it is a 'very good' answer that ties these mysteries together and answers them by using the internal game facts of E/S world. This fits so well that if this isn't the 'correct FASA answer,' then it's one hell of a coincidence because fitting together so many major strands of the E/S Mythos without any of it getting tangled surely lends credence to it. I am not aware of any counter answers or theories that might explain any of these points singularly, let alone tie them all together by using the specific game facts themselves. Sure you can speculate and say that Dunk was the Corrupt Dragon or that Teotihuacan isn't Parlainth, but the internal game facts counter such claims, so any such claims would be 'bad answers.' About as useful to the discussion as claiming Horrors can be stopped with chocolate. Uh, yeah, maybe, but where's the connection to the internal facts of the E/S Mythos? Not irrational opinions, but facts from the game world.

I have never seen anyone else theorize about this, so there isn't any other answers out there to compare this against. I'm not aware of any direct and contradicting game facts, but there is one potential weak link in this grand answer. In Aztlan, a corrupt Eastern Dragon is seen entering Aztlan HQ, the implication being that THE Dragon behind Aztlan is this Eastern. Though some have mentioned rumors that THE Dragon behind Aztlan is a Feathered Dragon, so there is clearly a low level disagreement and contradiction of what type THE Dragon is from inside the Shadowrun sources making any claim to the specific type of THE Dragon impossible from these rumors alone. I bring this up because Charcoalgrins type is vague, I'm not aware of any reference to her type, Eastern or Western. Looking at her game stats it's hard to tell because her powers do not stand out as being exclusively those of Eastern or Western dragons. Her attributes are more helpful as they seem to suggest she is a Western Dragon, not Eastern. Though Eastern Dragons are know as being more 'human' and interested in charming and using people. That sounds like Charcoalgrin who is described as talking for hours on end and killing any listeners who even yawn, but her Personality Attribute isn't as high as you'd expect from a Eastern, more like a Western dragons stat. This is all pretty vague as you can see.

The Dragon being behind Aztlan is a pretty strong game fact that exists irrespective of the one post in 'Aztlan' where a guy mentions seeing a Corrupt Eastern Dragon enter Aztlan HQ on a spirit quest. We also know that this Dragon, whatever its type, is corrupted by looking at the actions taken by Aztechnology to bring about the return of the Horrors. Considering the strength and completeness of the whole argument, compared to this one vague question about the Eastern/Charcoalgrin, some possible explanations arise. That Charcoalgrin is, in fact an Eastern, thus fitting with the Corrupted Eastern seen entering Aztlan HQ, since I can't find any statement about her type anyway, and am assuming, weakly, that she is a Western. That the corrupt Eastern isn't THE Dragon, but just A Dragon working for Charcoalgrin. That the poster was confused about the type of Dragon he saw. That FASA actually made a goof and this is kind of like finding a mistake on the SAT's. That in doing the Dragon and Parlainth boxed set, they inadvertently made Charcoalgrin a Western dragon (since Pairlainth was produced after Aztlan I believe, that would be the one at fault). Considering the, ahem, many mistakes FASA has made, that wouldn't be shocking at all if that was the case.

My insights on Earthdawn bring much needed perspective to the Horror discussion, which was my intention. My Aztlan theory makes sense and seems obvious to me. I think I have provided clear and concise and well explained answers to these questions. These are very good answers precisely because they are based on the facts of E/S and they fit together over a large 'Mythos' area. You'd expect some really obvious contradictions considering how much E/S ground is covered, but the only weakness is a question about Charcoalgrin and that may not matter anyway. If there is a parallel theory and someone is capable and knowledgeable enough to form one, I'm ready to see it. But this is a concise explanation and without another theory equally as strong or firm evidence to directly contradict this and thus show it can't be 'true,' this 'very good answer' to a the most complicated mystery in E/S. Considering that this is based on specific game facts that all fit together, the overall conclusion must also be considered 'factual' as it is merely an extrapolation of existing facts. IS this 'correct?' Who knows, all we can do is base our conclusions on the facts that exist and we can find. Certainly seems like it is and until you have a theory equally as good or evidence proving this is massively contradictory to the established game facts, this theory must stand as E/S 'fact' like all the other extrapolated 'facts' from E/S. Big D is Dunk, etc.

Considering the time and effort I have put into this, if youíre going to try to refute this, actually have some game facts and logic because Iím sure that weíre all tired of hysterical irrationality. Again, Iím not going to be an active poster and this is my last post, but if anyone can actually produce a concise theory based on the E/S facts to explain Horrors and how to defeat them and/or the origin of Aztlan, I might respond. Iím waiting for your expertise. I hope I havenít overestimated the sanity and rationality of this board.


This isn't for you, it's for tha Shorteez!
toturi
QUOTE (Master Shake @ Jan 17 2004, 03:56 PM)
Considering the time and effort I have put into this, if youíre going to try to refute this, actually have some game facts and logic because Iím sure that weíre all tired of hysterical irrationality. Again, Iím not going to be an active poster and this is my last post, but if anyone can actually produce a concise theory based on the E/S facts to explain Horrors and how to defeat them and/or the origin of Aztlan, I might respond. Iím waiting for your expertise. I hope I havenít overestimated the sanity and rationality of this board.


This isn't for you, it's for tha Shorteez!

People frequently over estimate the sanity and rationality of this board, so not much hope for you there. Better get out while you still have your sanity and rationale intact.

By the way, there is still next to nothing Canon on Horrors in SR3. So there is not much anyone can quote in the way of Game facts to refute or disprove your hypothesis. And you again did not quote any sources properly... no P.101 Aztlan or P 25 Harlequin's Back etc. So forgive me if I give your view with a little less creduality.

And.... you must be one of those Horror-marked! Trying to spread confusion and indecision by your disinformation! rollin.gif
annachie
QUOTE
1-The very specific art and architecture of Parlainth which is clearly C American. FASA didn't go through the trouble of developing the look of any city to the extent of Parlainth, and there is a reason for that, so what is it?


Firstly I believe Parlainth was always designed to be a major location, requiring best artwork and all that, so ...

Reason 1. The author thinks C-American architecture is cool.
Reason 2. The artist .....
Reason 3. The editor .....


Whilst the artwork may have led the writers think of ideas like your theory, it is extreemly unlikely that they designed Parlainth with such ideas in mind.

mfb
QUOTE (Master Shake)
I was polite and precise and didn't dignify some of the irrational and hysterical protests in kind. Instead...

...you responded with snotty insults about maturity, using the age-old "cool disdain" ploy. for the record, it should be noted that spouting off about how detached and aloof you are, while maintaining a steady stream of insults, is the second-oldest trolling technique in the book. the first is calling someone a nazi.

that said: ancient history hasn't come up with definitive proof that this stuff isn't so. he's proved that it isn't necessarily true, but it seems to still be a viable theory.
Frag-o Delux
I am just starting to read the ED books, so I have no way to dispute anything AH or MS say, but AH has been given the most kudos for a job well done by the people who have read/played ED so I see that he has a lot in the ED knowledge skill.

The thing that keeps popping out to me about MS's arguement is that he keeps insisting he has only skimmed the books, while AH insists he has read them cover-to-cover, MS then ridicules AH for not seeing his points. Maybe AH has and in his indepth research has found MS's arguemnets to be false. So to MS if you insist you are correct maybe you need to fully read the books, then maybe you will notice your theory is wrong, or maybe AH is wrong.

Personally I find the crossovers to be neat, but I don't care my games rarely touch the meta-plot, as far as I am concered the Horrors can come and go, chances are we'll never give them much credence in our games, cyberpunk is what made us like the game, magic and spirits are just a plus.

On a side note, AH was wrong for insulting you MS, and MS it seems that you think you didn't insult AH. Well I think you did, you see this game as "Nothing important", well I don't personally know AH, but he might take it as something more. Some people treat their pet dog or cat as part of the family, they cry when they die or run away, I personally think "Damn now I need a new one," or if it ran away, "Damn I just lost a lot of money on that damn dog." I don't treat animals with any malious, I just don't see them as anything more then a piece of property that is there for some reason, mostly entertainmnet. AH may take the "This is my Child" approach to SR/ED, I don't know. So when you call him mentally unstable because of this you just as much insulted him as he was when he called you shit head or what ever it was he called you. If you want to see why he really mentally unstable come visit us at Underworld, sorry AH had to pick on you a little. biggrin.gif
Prototype
Come on now kids!

To be fair, I can see both points... AH did kind of dismiss MS's original post out of hand without much in the way of evidence. MS did then get pretty uppity and was fairly insulting but this is outta control - let's get back to the point in hand and start talking about Horrors and stuff!

T'skrang and Obsidimen: I'm pretty sure that the answer to this one (Mike's interview aside, I remember reading that a while ago - he said they didn't make it but didn't really offer an explanation) lies in the fact that elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are all variations on humans... magic rises and voila, loving it! But the lizard and rock boys are distinct from that and so wouldn't have been able to chill out during the 5th world, thus leading to extinction. Obsidimen could crop up again I reckon if the right circumstances come around - who knows, maybe they will! On a related note, can anyone confirm if this is canon, 'cause I really remember reading it somewhere... but is it stated somewhere that during the 2nd age there were tons of races? Well, by tons I mean more than in ED anyway... anyone confirm or deny?

As for Dunkelzahn, I think whoever said he was a nice guy hit the nail right on the head! I'm sure he was ruthless, draconian (pun intended!) and all the rest, but his fundamental motivations and goals were good!

As for Juan, Corrupt Dragons and all the rest... I gotta say that I really like Master Shake's theory! Not so sure about the whole memory loss still in effect thing, I reckon that's pushing it a bit... but would there be any reason for Erypimese to have met Ehran and the other Dragons and stuff before? Maybe they didn't know him in the 4th world!

I agree the whole uber-forgetting spell is a bit much to be honest! But it's a cool story... I'm sure any Great who happened to have his shielding (or whatever it is in ED!) on that day would've remembered just fine!

Oh, and as for the Corrupt dragon going into the Pyramid in the Aztlan Sourcebook... from the text and the general goings on I had always taken that to be an Adult Dragon as opposed to a Great. I suppose there's no evidence to back that up but if there is a Great in charge of Aztechnology then I kinda doubt they're going to be showing off their corrupted aura whilst wizzing about outside the pyramid for the world to see! More likely that Dragon works for the big daddy!

I love all the old stuff in the sourcebooks about ED/SR links, it was pretty sucky when they tried to abolish all the connections and stuff! Still, it seems they're back on with a lot of the recent books... nothing I love better than immortals bantering on Shadowland and unique magic items flying around! Hands up if you still think Aztlan is one of the best sourcebooks FASA ever put out! Even if you don't use it that often it's a cracker!
Ancient History
Yaar. He do post much, don't he? I've admitted I was a bit of a dick in me criticisms.

But one, last thing.

QUOTE
Considering the time and effort I have put into this, if youíre going to try to refute this, actually have some game facts and logic because Iím sure that weíre all tired of hysterical irrationality. Again, Iím not going to be an active poster and this is my last post, but if anyone can actually produce a concise theory based on the E/S facts to explain Horrors and how to defeat them and/or the origin of Aztlan, I might respond. Iím waiting for your expertise.


Master Shake, before you type you might consider using the Search function.
BAM.
Pthgar
Bah! We're all wasting AH's time! He should be getting that blood magic article done! wwwwhh-chka! Back to work galley slave!
Ancient History
Slave-driver. grinbig.gif
ialdabaoth
A tangential question I've always wondered about:

Is it possible that many of the extinct species in the SR fossil record are actually paracritters? i.e., neanderthals are mis-identified orks; dragons descended from the dinosaurs; etc. etc., and that many of the mass extinctions of our planet are due to the ebb and flow of the manasphere?

kevyn668
QUOTE
ialdabaoth Posted on Jan 18 2004, 07:28 AM
  A tangential question I've always wondered about:

Is it possible that many of the extinct species in the SR fossil record are actually paracritters? i.e., neanderthals are mis-identified orks; dragons descended from the dinosaurs; etc. etc., and that many of the mass extinctions of our planet are due to the ebb and flow of the manasphere?


Thats deep dude.

Master Shake
I said I might respond if there was another theory or evidence to counter my Aztlan Explanation. I'm posting now because AH seems confused about what I said. Even though nothing has met the standard I set for myself in posting, it appears some are unclear what that standard is, so I'll explain again and wait for someone to meet the threshold.

That long post is basically part summary from the Earthdawn books and some S novels, I assume, and part undocumented speculation. That is a lengthy restating of the 'history' from the FASA books, and I don't have too many problems with that. But what do you think that is supposed to be a theory of? Just a collection of some established game facts and some of your speculations, but not a theory on what it all means and fits together. Clearly that took a lot of time, but that isn't a theory of anything, and when you do really speculate, like you do about Aztlan, you don't use any sources or state any reason behind the speculations. So if you think that is a theory or an answer to some of these questions, I must disagree but as a restatement of known Earthdawn history it seems largely accurate.

I provided a metaphysical explanation of the E/S Mythos by using the game facts and logically explaining the connections and how to defeat the Horrors. Also explaining Leonardo's Great Work in relation to the fundamental metaphysics. Also mentioning that an elf woman from the Blood Woman was the first HMHVV carrier. Now, you tried to refute all of those points by misquoting and misunderstanding E and S materials and not knowing about Egyptian gods, etc. Who knows, maybe those theories are all wrong, but if the goal is to refute them, you must use correct 'facts' that can be found in E/S materials. Either by providing another explanation of Where/Why Horrors cross into 'this,' or have accurate 'fact's from E/S to contradict my posts. If you don't or can't, then those all stand as facts, the metaphysics, the 'Queen (prob why they made her female) of the Damned,' etc. Your claim that she isn't the first HMHVV carrier is a poor answer because it ignores the specifically stated description that clearly suggests that she was the original carrier, for your vague, unspecified reason. Why ISN'T she the first HMHVV when the Blood Wood makes it clear that she is? IF you had another theory of the origin of HMHVV backed up by some E citations, you might have a point. But just saying 'nuh uh,' and ignoring the E facts is a bad answer.

MY Aztlan theory is also sourced and based on established E/S and historical facts. Perhaps it is totally wrong, but again, I have presented a comprehensive theory to tie existing mysterious E/S facts. I didn't merely restate established game facts, but I connected those facts into a larger factual whole. I didn't string all the clues together in a line, I grouped the clues that fit together to reveal a larger pattern. You also tried to refute my theory by misusing and misquoting E/S game facts and your opinions. The difference between good and bad answers is the evidence that can support it. I tied these mysteries together into a greater theory all based on the game facts from E/S and world history. Now, this theory is logically and reasonably considered 'factual,' or true UNTIL you can show that it is false. Either by forming a theory based on the E/S facts and not contradicting them, and comparing that theory to my Aztlan theory. If you're claiming that your vague speculation of 'maybe an IE' being behind Aztlan is such a theory then let's test it. My theory is based on E/S game facts that I have cited and quoted, I am not aware of any E/S game fact suggesting and IE is behind Aztlan, or that they are from Blood Wood or Thera. It is a baseless speculation with no connection to E/S facts, but it's possible. When comparing that speculation to a complex theory base don E/S facts that explains several mysteries and fits the known E/S facts to a tee, my theory clearly is more factual, logical and reasonable.

What you need is a complex theory to rival mine before you can question the already establioshed Aztlan explanation of Parlainth-Charcoalgrin-Juan. That stands unchallenged by any other theories and since it works (nearly) perfectly, in order to overturn that, or just question it, you have to have soemthign as good. Is Eiensteinís theory of General relativity 'correct?' Well, if you've got something better we can talk, if not, you're just being a crank. Though there are many who would claim to have something better but it is through arguing their perspective on facts that they sink or swim, but I digress.

OR, you need established E/S game facts, mot opinions or speculations, that would contradict the Aztlan Explanation. Like Parlainth being found in Russia in the 6th world thus making the Parlainth-Teotihuacan impossible. You'd need something like that because Teotihuacan is unashamadly the basis for the architecture of Parlainths pyramids which is no coincidence in light of the Aztlan Explanation. OR Charcoalgrin being killed in Earthdawn, making it highly unlikely she could be behind Aztlan. OR something from Shadowrun that would give another explanation of THE Dragon and/or Juan. Until you do, the clear and 'factual' explanation of Charcoalgrin and Erypimese stand being true. If you want to claim that THE Dragon is Dunkie and Juan is really Harlequin, then we can compare that theory with the Aztlan Explanation and compare. Since Dunkie gave his life trying to stop the Horrors and Aztlan, that seems pretty absurd, same with Harlequin who is known by Ehren and Hualpa and so would have been recognized by them and is an elf, not the human both Ehren and Hualpa clearly label Juan as being. Why is the Aztlan Explanation 'wrong' wholly or even just in part? If you could provide a counter explanation or any facts to refute some or all of the Aztlan Explanation, you could rationally disagree with it. If you lack any parallel explanation or factual basis of doubting the conclusion, you must accept the conclusions or you are just being an irrational crank.

So the Aztlan Explanation stands as a 'factual' and concise explanation of the origins of Aztlan and it's strange histry and the corrupt forces behind the scenes. You need to provide an equally powerful theory to compare with OR you must provide E/S facts that would contradict the basis of the Explanation. That's what you need in order to refute/attack/belittle the Aztlan Explanation. Since that was your original intention, that's what you would have needed to succeed. Refute it, admit it's right or just walk away.

PS- Yes, the ebb and flow of the manasphere explaining lost species would be a very good hypothesis. That also relates to, perhaps, the fundamental question of the E/S- the First Age. The cycles of magic are only a few thousand years, yet this plant has been around for billions of years. Unless the planet is much younger in E/S or that the cycles of magic radically vary, the question arises- What was BEFORE the first age? You have undefined ages of Legend and Dragons which are not explained in E, only vaguely referred to. The various creation myths of people and ĎDragonsí suggests that Dragons were the first 'Name Givers.' In Dragons, the 'Dragon Myth' says that 'Name Givers' sprung from the Blood of Nightslayer who was a rebel Horror who fought back against Verjigorm, the King of Horrors. Dragons arose from her first drops of blood and that's why Verjigorm, King of Horrors especially hates Dragons because they are the first born of Nightslayer. Now, this is presented as a general myth, and so I doubt it was meant to be taken specifically. Like myths, it is intended to be allegorical, but if Dragons were the first, would there be a tie to Dinosaurs? That Dinosaurs were somehow 'evolved' into Name Givers and became dragons the way various hominids evolved to form 'humans?' Or is the E/S anthropology unique and not connected to the fossil record? Dinosaurs have been extinct for millions of years while the cycle of magic has only gone back ten-twenty thousand years if the cycles of magic are the roughly the same. So why would such a cycle suddenly start up? And while cycle of magic and horror destruction can explain how species can be wiped out, it doesn't explain such occurrence that would have occurred before such cycles started.

Another odd thing about the cycles of magic, is that it's the EVEN numbers that are magical. The 4th world of Earthdawn was magical while the 5th age of the Romans, British Empire, etc was mundane and the 6th age is again, magical. So that would mean the first age of the cycle, an odd number, was NON-MAGICAL. Well, then how can it be the first? What's the difference from Age 1 and, say Age 0 or -1, the time BEFORE magic appeared? Why would you start counting ages when the first age doesn't distinguish itself in any way? You'd notice the 'magic cycle' when magic first appeared, which appears to be only ten-twenty K years ago based on the known lengths of these cycles. So the 1st age or cycle should be magical and thus all the odd #'s would be magic. Unless counting ages of magic or the cycles themselves is not constant.

So while we have an E/S metaphysics explaining the magical conflict between the Great Pattern and the Horrible Pattern, we don't have a clear idea when/how/why this is supposed to have arisen. There are no internal E facts about these times, just references that they existed in some way. And knowing what we do about the E/S Mythos and the cycles of magic and the vague connection between Dragons and all metahumans with a rebel Horror, it's impossible to make sense of the fossil record and the origin/appearance of the E/S metaphysics and magic. It's also possible that the FASA folks never went this deep into their game world and the reason there are seeming contradictions and unexplainable natural facts like the fossil record is because they never attempted to make the E/S Mythos that complete. Or there is some subtle and unstated explanation that would tie all these mysteries together, but of course somebody would have to find the stated facts, that donít even appear to exist, and fit them all together. But who needs that kind of aggravation in their life anyway?
Fortune
ohplease.gif
L.D
I know it's already been said, but not by me. So here goes: ohplease.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Master Shake @ Jan 18 2004, 04:48 PM)
I said I might respond if there was another theory or evidence to counter my Aztlan Explanation. I'm posting now because AH seems confused about what I said. Even though nothing has met the standard I set for myself in posting, it appears some are unclear what that standard is, so I'll explain again and wait for someone to meet the threshold.

You got page and book references to go with your theories?

I've been waiting for Canon SR or even ED page and book references since you first posted. You can't even meet my low standards of substantiating your claims. I want a page and book reference! Show me the money!

QUOTE
Why ISN'T she the first HMHVV when the Blood Wood makes it clear that she is? IF you had another theory of the origin of HMHVV backed up by some E citations, you might have a point. But just saying 'nuh uh,' and ignoring the E facts is a bad answer.


So you have a book and page reference that says she is the first recorded instance of HMHVV? An actual "And thus the first vampire/blood sucker was born" would do.

QUOTE
What you need is a complex theory to rival mine before you can question the already establioshed Aztlan explanation of Parlainth-Charcoalgrin-Juan. That stands unchallenged by any other theories and since it works (nearly) perfectly, in order to overturn that, or just question it, you have to have soemthign as good. Is Eiensteinís theory of General relativity 'correct?' Well, if you've got something better we can talk, if not, you're just being a crank. Though there are many who would claim to have something better but it is through arguing their perspective on facts that they sink or swim, but I digress


Is this Canon? Backed up by actual history? Otherwise it is a THEORY, it might be supported by hints and other insinuations but it is not firm Canon ground.

Your theories ARE well researched but they are the same as saying the Ryan Mercury was trained by Dunkelzahn because he works for DF and knew D personally and is a drake. But unless it was confirmed like it was confirmed in the Dragonheart saga, it doesn't count. Get my meaning?
L.D
I'm starting to wonder if Master Shake can't be Evan Moore with a new handle?

annachie
QUOTE
Teotihuacan in Azltan is the city of Parlainth


Of course there is one minor problem with this. Parlainth is a pre-scourge 4th age city. Teotihuacan is only about 2700 years old (According to carbon 14 dating). I suspect there's a couple of thousand years of age missing, even with time spent in an astral pocket

Raťn
Well, Master Shake, I'll try to give you something that may give a different explanation for Teotihucan and the blood magic aztech use, with some references.

"Feathered dragons originate from a land far from Barsaive,near Araucania." That places them near central or south america. (Dragons, p.128)

"Although they are able to use blood magic like other Name-givers, dragons generally disdain it in favor of their other magical powers and abilities. Certain Feathered dragons are the only dragons to regularly use blood magic." (Dragons, p.139)

As to Teotihuacan (sp?), you must understand that the drawing is the point of view of the artist, NOT the point of view of the author. Have you ever seen an image of a troll in ED or SR. They seem to be 2 or 2.2 meters high. A troll is 2.8 meter high in the rules, but never in any picture. The same goes here. Similarity in a drawing is not something certain.

As I see it (speculations here), it might as well be that when the aztec found the city, they found an ancient theran city of Araucania. Concerning their use of blood magic, it might come from pictures they have seen in this ancient city, showing the way therans (or more probably feathered dragons) did in the 4th Age. They practised it during the 5th Age, and when the mana rised in SR, a feathered serpent that laired near awakened, and used the legends of Quetzalcoatl to teach them the proper way to do.
For the corruption of the dragon, he might have been during the 4th Age, or maybe the use of so much blood sacrifices near his lair corrupted him.

Founders of the aztlan way may also have been dragonkin from this feathered serpent, explaining why they use so heavily blood magic.
Ancient History
I know I'm just encouraging Shake by putting this down, but I'd like to at least put one ghost to rest in this thread:

QUOTE ("Blood Wood @ p.94")

...

A female elf named Eletheria-purportedly a striking beauty with long black tresses, a ghostly pale complexion and distinctive green eyes-did belong to the Escalanas ranelle in the days before the Scourge.

...

Some tales claim Eletheria simply broke down from the strain of her work.  Others claim she was experimenting with magic so vile and dangerous that the otehr warders ordered her to quit and leave their midst.  Still others claim that she used herself as the subject of her experiments and unwittingly become corrupted beyond redemption.

...

After a few months, however, a pattern began to emerge.  All  the victims had been killed in the same manner-their hearts ripped from their bodies and their bodies drained of blood.  The attacks took place on nights when the moon was full and, most inruiging, many of the attacks seemed to coincide with sightings of a pale, Unprotected elf maiden with long black hair and distinctive green eyes.

...

Some claim that the young elf found a way to keep herself alive with blood magic-hence the condition of her victims.  Still others say that Eletheria became the bride of some vile Horror intent on eventually destorying the Elven Court.  A few tales even claim that the corrupted beasts of the forest are the spawn of this unholy union.


This is edited, mainly 'cause I didn't want to write out the whole thing. But the important parts are there.

Now then:
  • Vampires are first mentioned in the Earthdawn Companion, although only in an example and without any accompanying stats.
  • Vampires are next mentioned (and given stats, very different from SR stats) in Barsaive in Chaos.

I have always stated that it is inconclusive whether Eletheria is a vampire or not. There just isn't enough evidence either way for a definitive statement to be made. I do disagree with the notion of her as the "First vampire" or "Queen of the Damned" however, as mention was made of vampires before her, and mentions of vampires after her bear little resemblance.
Samoth
QUOTE (Ancient History)
David Dankel does still post on occaison.

Shake: Better! But I still feel you're wrong about the vampire-chick and really wrong about Teotihuacan. I mean, your basic argument is that Parlainth has pyramids therefore it must have been transported across the Atlantic to Central America. Has it perhaps not occurred that Creana has pyramids that could have proved the inspiration for Parlainth's?

FYI, Earthdawn spell: City in a Bottle. Not saying it was used to move Parlainth, but if it exists, you can never rule out use of it or of something more powerful (metaplanar travel).

I don't see why you can't accept that Parlainth could be in Mexico. This theory sounds great to me. It certainly ties up a lot of loose ends. cool.gif
Ancient History
City In a Bottle was not the spell used on Parlainth.
Samoth
I realize that, but if a spell like that exists, then it is not out of the question that Parlainth could end up on the other side of the world.
Ancient History
Yaar. But Parlainth is completely corrupted, while Teotihuacan isn't. The Azzie blood-mages don't even like Teotihuacan.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Master Shake)
Another odd thing about the cycles of magic, is that it's the EVEN numbers that are magical. The 4th world of Earthdawn was magical while the 5th age of the Romans, British Empire, etc was mundane and the 6th age is again, magical. So that would mean the first age of the cycle, an odd number, was NON-MAGICAL. Well, then how can it be the first? What's the difference from Age 1 and, say Age 0 or -1, the time BEFORE magic appeared? Why would you start counting ages when the first age doesn't distinguish itself in any way? You'd notice the 'magic cycle' when magic first appeared, which appears to be only ten-twenty K years ago based on the known lengths of these cycles. So the 1st age or cycle should be magical and thus all the odd #'s would be magic. Unless counting ages of magic or the cycles themselves is not constant.

Proposal: during the previously existing time, Verjigorm created things and destroyed them. In the "0th Age" Verjigorm created Dragons, which he was unable to destroy. They survived until the downcycle forced Verjigorm away, making the First Age the first to have living beings throughout (though hibernating).

~J
toturi
And at -1st Age, we have humans kicking Horror ass. rollin.gif
Raťn
QUOTE (toturi)
And at -1st Age, we have humans kicking Horror ass. rollin.gif

Wrong. At 1st Age, we have downcycle kicking Horror ass. wink.gif
toturi
What's the difference? I'm talking about the -1st Age, not the 1st Age.
Kagetenshi
At the -1st Age, we have nothing because Verjigorm kicked everything in the -2nd Age's ass, and the -1st is a Downcycle.

~J
Raťn
Well, in fact, Verjy kicked everything in the -1st Age (or 0th Age if you prefer), and the 1st Age was a downcycle, as the 2nd Age, the Age of legends, was a magic Age.
Ancient History
The 2nd World was the Age of Dragons, the 4th World was the Age of Legend
arcanus
QUOTE (Prototype)

T'skrang and Obsidimen: I'm pretty sure that the answer to this one (Mike's interview aside, I remember reading that a while ago - he said they didn't make it but didn't really offer an explanation) lies in the fact that elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are all variations on humans... magic rises and voila, loving it! But the lizard and rock boys are distinct from that and so wouldn't have been able to chill out during the 5th world, thus leading to extinction. Obsidimen could crop up again I reckon if the right circumstances come around - who knows, maybe they will! On a related note, can anyone confirm if this is canon, 'cause I really remember reading it somewhere... but is it stated somewhere that during the 2nd age there were tons of races? Well, by tons I mean more than in ED anyway... anyone confirm or deny?!

(Delurk)

Hi All,
I'm new to the Forum, but have been playing SR since 89.

Thought I'd throw my thoughts in:
Tskang and Obsidimen in the 6th World, one thing Cannon that springs to mind is from the Tir Taingire SB (Forget which page) in that it is suggested that Vitas was manufactured.

Incidentally it wiped out a 3rd of the Earths Population, could it be that someone specifically targeted those Humans or animals with Vitas who had Tskang or Obsidimen Genes.

Max
Raťn
QUOTE (Prototype)
T'skrang and Obsidimen: I'm pretty sure that the answer to this one (Mike's interview aside, I remember reading that a while ago - he said they didn't make it but didn't really offer an explanation) lies in the fact that elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are all variations on humans... magic rises and voila, loving it! But the lizard and rock boys are distinct from that and so wouldn't have been able to chill out during the 5th world, thus leading to extinction. Obsidimen could crop up again I reckon if the right circumstances come around - who knows, maybe they will! On a related note, can anyone confirm if this is canon, 'cause I really remember reading it somewhere... but is it stated somewhere that during the 2nd age there were tons of races? Well, by tons I mean more than in ED anyway... anyone confirm or deny?

The info about more races comes from the same interview of Mike:

"They died out at the end of the last magic cycle and didn't make it, plus being more magically constructed than the others they took the lack of magic "harder" than the others. So therefore, no real fix. For the sake of argument, assumer there were something like 20-25 different races in the Second World; 8 survived that loss of magic. Now only 5 survived this next one."
moosegod
Hopefully the elves are next.

Although logic seems to imply its trolls and orcs next.
Rev
I don't beleive that there are any suggestions in earthdawn that Obsidimen are related (biologically) to the other namegiver races. There are, however, suggestions that they are not related. It would be really quite bizarre, given how obsidimen work, if humans were UGE'ing into them, or giving birth to baby Obsidimen. For one thing I am pretty sure there are no baby Obsidimen. They bud off of thier liferocks fully formed and at least somwhat educated and intelligent.

Tskrang are, I think, also not related to humans at all. If they are anywhere during down cycle it might be a non-sentient form.
Talia Invierno
Whoosh!

1) Master Shake, please stay around and keep posting your theories. Contrary to what is apparently popular opinion, it's all speculation until the books nail it down - and they most carefully haven't.

2) The length of time a poster has been around the boards should make absolutely no difference to anything except expectation that older posters would be rather more familiar with the rules of the board.

3) Quickness to acknowledge error seems to be directly proportional to the other person's a) stubbornness, b) ability to cite text, c) board longevity.

4) It's the easiest thing in the world to equate the absolute validity of one's own theories with one's own validity generally. There's lots of work involved, on both sides, but guys: they're only theories, and that about a fictional universe! To hear the two of you, you'd think you were rival academics duelling over grant money.

5) If you want to set a bunch of Tolkeinites at each others' throats ultra-quickly, drop the racism bullcape. There's certainly enough evidence, but then again racism was very much the environment of the times. (Go check back through United States history - specifically Senator Wheeler and his following.)

6) In real life, there's lots of onion domes in Kiev as well as Moscow, and they're about the same age. I've been inside them in both cities grinbig.gif

7) It's all fiction anyway!
Ancient History
TI has a point or seven.
Master Shake
QUOTE (Ancient History)
I know I'm just encouraging Shake by putting this down, but I'd like to at least put one ghost to rest in this thread:

QUOTE ("Blood Wood @ p.94")

...

A female elf named Eletheria-purportedly a striking beauty with long black tresses, a ghostly pale complexion and distinctive green eyes-did belong to the Escalanas ranelle in the days before the Scourge.

...

Some tales claim Eletheria simply broke down from the strain of her work.  Others claim she was experimenting with magic so vile and dangerous that the otehr warders ordered her to quit and leave their midst.  Still others claim that she used herself as the subject of her experiments and unwittingly become corrupted beyond redemption.

...

After a few months, however, a pattern began to emerge.  All  the victims had been killed in the same manner-their hearts ripped from their bodies and their bodies drained of blood.  The attacks took place on nights when the moon was full and, most inruiging, many of the attacks seemed to coincide with sightings of a pale, Unprotected elf maiden with long black hair and distinctive green eyes.

...

Some claim that the young elf found a way to keep herself alive with blood magic-hence the condition of her victims.  Still others say that Eletheria became the bride of some vile Horror intent on eventually destorying the Elven Court.  A few tales even claim that the corrupted beasts of the forest are the spawn of this unholy union.


This is edited, mainly 'cause I didn't want to write out the whole thing. But the important parts are there.

Now then:
  • Vampires are first mentioned in the Earthdawn Companion, although only in an example and without any accompanying stats.
  • Vampires are next mentioned (and given stats, very different from SR stats) in Barsaive in Chaos.
I have always stated that it is inconclusive whether Eletheria is a vampire or not. There just isn't enough evidence either way for a definitive statement to be made. I do disagree with the notion of her as the "First vampire" or "Queen of the Damned" however, as mention was made of vampires before her, and mentions of vampires after her bear little resemblance.

Even when itís quoted there can be disagreement? Am I nuts or is that everything BUT coming out and specifically stating that she was the creator and first carrier of HMHVV? We have HMHVV in the 6th world with its various interactions with meta-types but no explanation of where/when this arose though it appeared to exist before the 6th world. In the 4th world there are vague references to vampires, one in Companion that seems to be the classic 'vampire' because it can be warded off with garlic. The other a horror construct called 'vampire' that has no resemblance to HMHVV carriers besides the name 'vampire' ascribed to it. Still no explanation of HMHVV. In Blood Wood we have a rather clear description of an HMHVV carrier, and as she is described, she would appear to be the first and originator of the blood magic/virus. HMHVV could only arise through some radical and dangerous magic and we have someone doing such research, even with a dash of Horror connection thrown in for good measure. She is described as being pale, only appearing at Nights, being strong enough to rip apart Elf patrols and she rips out hearts and drinks all their blood. If she isn't the first HMHVV, then why is she in the source book? She doesn't advance the meta-plot and she is described as having all the strengths and weaknesses and desires of HMHVV carriers. If not THE HMHVV, what is she? The claim that vampires are mentioned 'before her' is baseless. She became a vampire during the scourge or right before it and appears right after the scourge ends which is th every beginning of the Earthdawn timeframe. If there were any claims of HMHVV existing before the Earthdawn scourge, which there aren't, then that claim would be valid. There is no evidence of Vampires existing prior to Eletheria, if there is, please enlighten me to it because I have no idea how you could make such a claim. Itís a pretty high standard to overcome what appears to be a pretty unsubtle explanation of the origins of HMHVV. Since you havenít overcome that, what is the rational basis for denying the obvious? Eletheria of the Escalanas was the first HMHVV carrier. She created the virus through dark blood magic experiments and/or some help from Horrors.

If this is a stupid hobby that we share, of trying to find out what's really going on in E/S, this must be one of the more obvious ones. They do everything BUT come out and say that she was teh first HMHVV carrier. This is certainly more obvious and less subtle than Ehren being 'Wordsmyth.' Where in S is there such an unsubtle claim that Ehren is 'Wordsmyth?' The first HMHVV is an obvious one, more obvious than some of the other E/S claims that are genrally accepted. This requires only an acceptance of what is written, yeah, she's the 'Queen of the Damned,' an obvious nod to Anne Rice. To claim that she isn't would require an equally good source from E that would contradict what is sad in 'Blood Wood.' To claim that there isn't enough data to conclude is just logically preposterous, what is that if not a description of the first HMHVV carrier? We have no other explanation anywhere, we know the connection between E and S, and we have a rather explicit description of HMHVV and how it first arose.

Some unspecified Fire or feathered dragons being behind Aztlan? Perhaps. But if the only basis of such a claim is that Feathered dragons live in warm climates like Central America, then itís a pretty weak hypothesis. After all, Feathered Dragons are also described as living in Indrisa, or India and there isn't an Indian version of Teotihuiacan and Aztechnology there. Fire Dragons may have used Blood and Death magic but they were not unique in their use, and there is nothing direct to tie Fire Dragons to Aztechnology. What we have behind Aztlan in a Dragon of an unspecified type who is corrupted, not just a user of dark magic. The actions of Aztlan to bring about the Horrors is clearly the work of a corrupted Dragon. Are there any corrupt Dragons from E or S that could fit the bill besides Charcoalgrin? A Fire dragon even? Hualpa is a Fire/Feather dragon who laired in the Yucatan but he was forced out by Aztlan and set up in S America. Hualpa certainly uses blood magic, perhaps even Death magic as is suggested that such Dragosn do use, but he isn't corrupt. He isn't trying to bring about the Horrors, so it's clear that Feathered Dragons are not corrupt just because they use such magic. In fact, Hualpa is opposed to Aztlan, doesnít appear to have any knowledge of who or what is behind Aztlan. Who ever it is, they outmaneuvered him since he was the one forced to flee his lair in Azzie territory and move to S America. Hualpa states that he see no evidence of Dragon Magic behind Aztlan and when he meets Juan, the Azzie front man, he has no idea who he could be and can't pierce his aura. If the Great Feathered Dragon from the Yucatan can't recognize a fellow Fire dragon from the same region, a region he lived in and thus would have intimate knowledge of, perhaps even raising THE Dragon, or at least the Dragons front man in Juan, it's not a local Dragon from C America in E times that's behind Aztlan.

So there is no reason or evidence to think that just because Fire dragons like Hualpa use blood magic, even death magic, that there is one behind Aztlan. Amazonia isn't bringing about the Horrors so that argument has no legs, and isn't a valid theory of the origins of Aztlan since there is no E or S evidence to back it up, let alone a clear rationale for why it would be. I never said that Teotihuacan 'resembles' Parlainth, I've said that Parlainth was designed directly after that city, and that they are one and the same. The specific art and look of the city was designed based on gridlines of the game developers. That's specifically how they wanted the city to look. The cover art of the 'Parlainth GM's Book' is artwork that the Horrors drew inside the city once they corrupted it and claimed it for their own. It is clearly in the C American sacrificial mural style, even down to the fact that the human slaves being depicted have the large, slightly 'squared' noses that Mayan/Aztecs kings and gods and artwork are all depicted as having even though those features are not found in the art of Russians or in the art of any other Barsaivian or Theran places. The claim that this is coincidental doesn't give the E/S folks enough credit. They may have left holes and made mistakes here and there, but they have always been deliberate in crafting a complex world which is why trying to figure out what's really going on can be interesting. Distinct C American art and architecture in Russia, ALONE, and this city is designed directly after Teotihuacan, a city of great importance in Aztlan according to Target: Awakened Lands, it is one of the most powerful magic cites on earth which would certainly fit Parlainth. Parlainth, as a central pillar in Earthdawn is no accident. Charcoalgrin living there is no accident, Erypimese being her puppet is no accident, the corruption and dominance of Horrors over the place is no accident, the absurd ĎNo-Memoryí and disappearing sell is no accident, the art and architecture is no accident. My conclusions could always be wrong, but they fit all the facts from E/S that exist in regards to this stuff.

The Aztlan Explanation isn't based on just a single argument even though Parlainth being Teotihuacan is pretty clear in the specifics of its design alone. Despite that some want to dismiss it as being no-specific and generally resembling without any reason behind such a claim, it is copied directly which is verifiable with a Mexican history book and the Parlainth boxed set. This explains the seeming absurd notion of a C American city in Russia since C American art and architecture is really 'Russian' and was copied from Parlainth when the locals found this mysterious lost city, as it says in T:AL. Also explains their knowledge of Blood/death magic which they tried to replicate through the down cycle with their massive and murderous sacrifices while nowhere else was this the case. Nowhere else was their such knowledge of the cycles of magic and the Horrors even though Horrors and the scourge was global and certainly Feathered dragons existed elsewhere and still nobody knew. The Aztecs and Mayans knew. You'd need something like Teotihuacan existing in C America IN EARTHDAWN TIMES while Parlainth was still in Russia to establish that they are different cities considering all the evidence that supports that they are the same.

Teotihuacan is the heart of Aztlan but even the Azzies themselves are only 'allowed' to use the cite for powerful rituals on very rare occasions. Mentions in T:AL they used the power of Teotihuacan recently in using/summoning spirits to fight rebels in Yucatan and we see how toxic and corrupted and dangerous th eYucatan has become. Also states that nobody is allowed to summon near Teotihuacan. Why all the special cases in Shadowrin for this super powerful site in the heart of Aztlan? Well, as a the horror corrupted city of Parlainth, anything coming from or near that place is going to be seriously dangerous and so is like the Atomic Bomb of magic, only to be used as alast resort. Also, Charcoalgrin, THE Dragon behind Aztlan, the mysterious force that is probably more Horror than Dragon by now, the one who outmaneuvered Hualpa and drove him from his own lair has had Parlainth for her personal lair since Earthdawn times. Dragons don't liek to share, particularly Horrible Dragons. Hualpa doesn't recognize THE Dragon, or Juan, THE Dragon's puppet because he didnít know Russian Dragons anyway, and with Parlainths Magic of No-Memory, nobody remembered them. This ties all those threads together and answers the reason for the absurd 'No-Memory' aspect of the Parlainth spell. The most obviosu answer can still be wrong, but the Aztlan Explanation clearly fits the facts and explains some mysterious E/S facts. So does Ehren being 'Wordsmyth,' or the 'Queen of the Damned' being that radical elf magician. Nowhere does it come out and say that any of those conclusions are correct, but based on the evidence, it's pretty clear what's going on. The Aztlan Explanation is just as strong as the other 'revealed' facts about E/S like Ehren being 'Wordsmyth.'

Using the word 'canon' which refers to the finalized religious texts of Christianity, specificaly the Bible, to refer to the books from a meaningless RPG is really fucking anal.

PS-Dragon Creation myth in 'Dragons' calls the first age the 'Age of the Dark One.' Ignoring all evidence of the world being being over a billion years old or species like dinosaurs existing millions of years ago or humans existing for hundreds of thousands of years, the 6 'Ages' makes sense. But when you compare the short magic cycles with the much longer age of the world and humanity, conflicts arise. So Age 1 is 'Dark One,' Age 2 is Dragons, Age 3 is mundane, Age 4 is Legend, 5 is Technology, Age 6 is Magic-Technology. That still bares no relation to the 12 billion years the universe has been around or the over billion of the earth, nor does it relate to the extinctions and life that existed, even human life, far longer than the twenty or so thousand years of the E/S Magic cycle. Unless the 1st age, as not part of the cycle per se, lasted for billions of years and the magic cycle began with the 2nd age of Dragons only a few thousand years ago. But humans evolved a few hundred thousand years ago which would have placed them during the 'Age of the Dark One,' so this all very vague and speculatory. I don't see enough evidence that would either place the E/S separate from paleontology, etc., that dates humans and the earth far past the rise of the cycle of magic, or that the cycles vary in length of time, that perhaps Dragons were evolved from dinosaurs in the 2nd Age of Dragons and that second age started and lasted tens of millions of years ago. Not enough to go on.
Ancient History
Do you even read what I post? Even ignoring for the moment that the entire section I quoted is rumor and hearsay, lets focus on the "facts."

Something ambushes bloodwarder patrols on nights when the moon is full, ripping out their hearts and draining their blood. Sometimes a pale woman looking like Eletheria is seen on the same nights. Not beyond the means of a homicadal critter/Namegiver/Horror/Spirit/Really-Big-Mosquito and coincidence/rural legend. You could make an argument for the loup-garou's cycle, but then you wouldn't see the nice pale elf lady would you?

Notice that there is no record of any of these victims rising from their graves or dissapearing mysteriously, nor of the phenomenon spreading to indicate there's more of whatever's doing it. HMHVV could easily handle a simple rip-out-the-heart trick.

Besides which, we've seen zero indication of any of the powers of the Infected, because we don't know how the patrols were killed. Shite, the killings could simply be death magic to extend Eletheria's life.

Maybe I'm just a tad more stringent in my guidelines, but I'm not going to make a wild or important claim until I'm positive I can back it up in canon. Even then, I always make sure it's noted as my claim. I don't even accept 100% of what Lou Prosperi says unless its in a sourcebook (all due deference to the great LP).


Please re-refer yourself to the appropriate sections of the Dragons.pdf, the Vivane Boxed Set, the Aztlan Sourcebook and the Survival of the Fittest campaign. It is a matter of debate whether or not a dragon is behind AZT, but given the historical feud between feather serpents regarding blood magic in the area, the conflict between Hualpa and a Shadowy dragon in SotF, the fact that feathered serpents familiar with death magic were teaching it to local Namegivers, the vision of the corrupted dragon (along with the other comments) in the Aztlan book; I'd lay more money on a feathered serpent being behind AZT than any other type of dragon, with one exception.

The major sticking point is that Teotihuacan is Parlainth and Charcoalgrin is Corrupted. I would sooner accept that Vestrivan returned from the dead like Ghostwalker and set up AZT for his own inscrutable purposes before saying that a dragon who has so far shown no interest in blood magic and no influence by the Horrors (but loves personal attention) has suddenly become the twisted mastermind half a world away. At least we know he's Horror-marked.

Don't go anal when we say "canon." My ghost, it's a role-player's tradition.

There are still more holes in your Theory than I'd like to discuss, mainly because you're being belligerent. I don't even want to go point by point with you on this again. It's exhausting for me, especially because of the uber-paragraph format of your posts.

I will add as regards your last paragraph that I assume the dragon creation myth to be just that...a myth. With elements of truth in it perhaps, but still a myth.
toturi
AH, may I? extinguish.gif

CANON! Show me the Canon! rollin.gif
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