This is the funniest line in that whole post.

More sour grapes!

Bitch. Rant. Moan. Complain. "I am still right, but you don't want to admit it". You suck. Bitch. I hate you and everything you stand for. Complain. Moan. Bitch.

So you agree that you are stupid for having bought any books, and sad for having read through any of them?

I'd like to add some to Fortune's already great summary:

Bitch about AH. Bitch about Euiscerati. Bitch about Prosperis posts. Bitch about ED/SR. Bitch some more about Prosperis posts. Explain how he is right about the Parlainth-Teotihuacan connection (becuase the art is the same).

Did I leave something out?

Edit: And kids, don't forget: "With bitch drop the t, cause bich is latin for generosity."

Probably that it looks like Euiscerati and Master Shake are practically joined at the hip, if not in face the same person. The writing style and tone, and some of the theories, are remarkably similar.

The Easter bunny is real,it ate my best friend!

WHAT?! You mean... you mean he isn't real? (*)


More seriously, I agree with some people here: unless Euiscerati is Master Shake's minion (it could be, I've seen similar cases), then they're probably the same guy. Regardless of the truth, my advise to Euiscerati also applies to Master Shake. Does anyone disagree with my theory?


(*) But what about Monty Python's killer rabbit?

Nah, it's cool.

In all likelihood, most of us would probably prefer if you sucked even more at lurking.

When a conclusion seems obvious in E/S, it can't be true? But now everyone's an expert at examining styles and drawing conclusions? You almost have the right idea. Though what we now know, it's clear that even the 'obvious' of E/S is meaningless to the 'correct' answers as those who would rub our noses in their own failings like to tell us. Hualpa being Jungle Cat and Alachia being Hecate makes sense tp me. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes wasting your time with a game will bite you in the ass. Cursing is an art and should never be a way of life, but passion is always respectable, far more so than the sideline cheering and jeering that has ruined this thread. I wish now that I didn't waste my money of this stuff though I certainly got some enjoyment from it, so perhaps I'm ambivalent. I've done a worse job of lurking than Lou has but since I started this thread I certainly have felt obliged to respond to some of the lunacy on here.

This began as a discussion about Horrors and how to stop them by using what was stated in E/S as the basis. Of all the things Lou has been silent on, this is the strangest. After all, wasn’t that the point? Maybe he’s learned to bite his tongue which would be an improvement. Ancient History and I argued over what the E/S books stated. Perhaps since you fundamentally misunderstand, or pretend to, you should take a look at page 1 of this thread. Nobody made any absolute claims about E/S accept you. Though Ancient History did his best to try, the only absolutes we were arguing over were the game facts which, as it turns out, weren't game facts at all. That's really ironic. Since you forgot or didn't see the beginning of this thread, let me recap the basics of what led to 'this.'

The difference between a good answer and a bad answer is that the good answer is based on the evidence while a bad answer isn't. The correct answer could be anything, the bad answer, not based on any evidence could always end up being the correct answer. The universe is stupid like that sometimes. No matter how much reason and evidence behind a good answer that may exist, it can always be wrong. This discussion was about the best answer, not the correct answer because we had no idea of knowing what was 'really' behind E/S. The only evidence we have for E/S answers is from the canon (nod to Ancient History). The argument was always over what the 'facts' of E/S were and how they best fit together. This thread was quite conversational and pleasant until people started getting the absolutist itch and started making blanket statements. The only blanket statement that I and everyone else assumed from the beginning was that there was a brilliance behind E/S and it was worth our trouble to figure it out and get upset over. The joke is on us. If I had concluded incorrectly based on the facts or if we had missed some crucial piece of E/S evidence, that would be one thing. But nothing existing there at all? That never occurred to any of us until you decided to post.

I never claimed that my interpretations of E/S *must* be correct. I claimed that my answers were better than Ancient History's because I only used the E/S contents and my own belief that E/S was a well formed game world, while Ancient History misquoted and made false claims about what E/S did contain. If you are here to tell us the correct answers, then any discussion about good or bad answers is moot. Which was your point. To throw some weight around. OK, this is a free and fair board despite Mr E (a foul mouthed italian?) being axed. Post what you want, I merely thought a mature discussion could follow from my initial post though it seems I was laughably naive in that assessment. I never claimed that I must be right, but you certainly did. And you never did present any reason or evidence of anything. Perhaps you should try now since you have such a problem with other people’s reasons and evidence, feel free to present your own. We assume you are Lou P and assume that you know what you are talking about but by your own admissions, you have made some remarkable mistakes and errors in regards to E. I doubt you could find anyone on this board who would have made or allowed such mistakes since they clearly care more than you ever did. Admitting that E/S were developed as an open ended game where later free lance writers could add their input and grow the world on their own makes sense. Though it's clear that those who are more passionate than any of you people were, would have worked harder to develop a consistency in either or both games as to avoid some embarrassing mistakes, like as you say 'Vampires' existing multiple times in E when they ‘shouldn’t.’

With that bald faced admission, that certainly explains all the plot holes and mistakes. Though it is a petty admission to make in the face of the clear interest and even passion that exists over E/S. If that is true and, basically, E or S Mythos only existed as far as the next free lance writer, the only reasonable conclusion is that caring about or wondering about these games is foolish. We can certainly invent our own answers, but that's no more than what free lance writers do which puts everything, all of the discussion about E or S or Horrors or Aztlan or the 'future' of S into the realm of pure bull shit and opinion. Not a terrible place to be, but considering the high regard many of us had for E/S, it's very disappointing. This is a board where people come to discuss such issues and people come to badger anyone who deviates from their understanding of 'canon.' Even when the books state something multiple times, it's not 'correct?'

That's brings up an interested question, and the salient point that you and some of the peanut gallery don't appear to have grasped yet. 'Vampires' in Earthdawn are clearly canon since they are stated in the official books. That is the definition of 'canon.' Though now we hear that they are not correct? So the entire notion of 'canon' as the guide, that since it is written down, it must be 'correct' is revealed as bullshit. So 'canon' and correct are not synonymous. So, once again, tell us all of the other mistakes that riddle these games or simply tell us what's really going on. You claim to really know and have shown us that you want to tell us what you know, in a rather inelegant way. Go ahead, finish what you started. Tell us what little you people even bothered to plan for yourself and didn't leave totally open to a random free lance writer who'll take the lowest price-per-word contract? Doesn't appear that much was planned out, it seems clear from your admissions that the stories and characters were random factors included only for the appearance of a complex game world. Even the peanut gallery wants to hear your explanations, and since those are the people you oafishly tried to impress, go ahead and knock their socks off. Tell them all the secrets that exist, it doesn't appear that it will take you long. You can even hold them in contempt and not even try to be precise or explain the reasons behind anything you claim. You say the games don’t mater, so what are you afraid of? Don’t try to back off now.

Re-reading my first post, I can't imagine what would have prompted some people to start making personal flames on this thread. It's clear that I gave all the benefit of the doubt and credit to the E/S developers which you found necessary to call me on. I had more respect for you than you now say you deserved and you went out of your way to tell us that? OK, ‘you win.’ For whatever reason, you've made it your mission to make us all fools for following what you now say was a foolish game. Comparing all of our interest in Earthdawn to a childish belief in the Easter Bunny shows your amazing lack of respect for the people who cared about the job that fed your family. It’s clear that you didn’t deserve our time or money. Those of us who did spend time and money on this.

You go out of your way to undermine any respect for E/S and now compare us to children because we cared about your stupid game? And you don't seem to realize that while you're having your fun by calling us fools, you're also humiliating yourself and making yourself and your colleagues look foolish for doing such a poor job. So it's no surprise that you'd try to attack me (jealousy perhaps?) and end up backhanding those who care about this far more than I do. Like getting rid of one tree by burning down the whole forest. The person who believed in the Easter Bunny was Ancient History. All of us, save perhaps you, had a deep respect for this game, but the person who has invested money and time and bandwidth and patrols this board like a Commissar looking for traitors to 'canon' is Ancient History. For those of us who aren't that familiar with these boards and come infrequently, this isn't such a big deal, just a hobby for us. But for the posters who post every day, who fill threads like this one and even defend you when you deserve no defense or even their respect, you're rubbing their noses in this waste of time. What's wrong with believing in the Easter Bunny if they want to? The trust in you was misplaced, but you should be able to let people have their fun. This is a harsh enough world without people going around squashing other people's dreams.

To me, you're an ass and a bore for admitting such shoddy work on your own part and not being clever enough to realize that your admissions undermine any faith or respect you can reasonably have for E/S, and for having no respect for the game and the gamers who did care about this.

That's about it.

For me the high points were:

This post is so full of absolute bullshit that I just don't know where to begin. MS's real reasons to write such immensely long posts is probably so that he'll seem 1337, but also that it'd be impossible to point out all the errors within. Here's one quick one though:
1) MS claims he never claimed anything he said is correct, just best.
2) MS claims everything he said was based strictly on canon.
3) MS wonders why canon doesn't make him correct.
That seems a bit odd to me...

Let's do some more.
1) MS claims everything he said was based strictly on canon.
2) MS claims everybody trusted ED/SR to be developed to the point that every facet of the world was clearly thought out before it was written down.
3) MS claims LouP is stupid and an ass and whatever else for saying that the people who trusted (ie everybody) in ED/SR are fools and "believe in the Easter Bunny".
4) MS says he never trusted ED/SR in the first place, only AH did.
5) MS says AH is a fool and "believes in the Easter Bunny".
So what does that make MS then?

Lou answered this one, basically saying that choosing mesoamerican style architecture was not part of some over all grand plan

There are 2 or 3 styles of pyramids in the America's, one of which is similar to a chinese style. (Although it is hard to be sure given it's condition. It's in Peru)

Hell, there's a number of real life cities that are yet to make an appearance.

Scientists exploring Teotihuacan currently peg the city at about 2700 years old, according to carbon dating. I actually thought that the Mayans where favoured to have built it.

Having moved once, if it moved again it would be back to where it was the first time. A physical move would require a different spell, or some major event/calamity to occur corrupting the original spell

In the foundations of the temple of the sun are at least 4 graves containing what appear to be sacrifices which, iirc, date to about the time the city was built. The ritualistic appearance of these sacrifices would indicate that the practice was well in use before the Temple was build, and therefor arguably before Teotihuacán itself was built.



Edit: Oops, sorry abput the mis-quoting. Then when I went to edit it back right last night the pc crashed. Oh well

Ya know, we should refer Shake to the "creative questioning" thread.

-Siege

You didn't site book and page numbers.

On another note... I grant you that MS is...hmmmm... socialy challanged but I think he has made some good points. The one I real go with him on is, that is realy disapointing that there is no real guiding thought behind E or S it all just kinda happend. Disapointing but not on the scale MS takes it too.

Wait doesn't there have to be some sort of thought behind the games? There is the meta plot(s). Which is/are obvious.

Thanos

AE, why you gotta go there? Now I'm forced to think about

and that's just wrong.

God, it's just like that one time in New Orleans.

Like the ones in which Lou steps in and states rather clearly the intentions of the writers from his perspective?

~J

Not to mention that, if something is "set in stone" early on, it shuts out potential cool possibilities that we might not have been able to write about later on without severe retrofitting.

Bottom line, though, is that whatever any of us have written can be used, abused, twisted or completely ignored in regard to what YOU want to do with your own campaign. If you don't want Hecate to be Alachia, then she ain't. If you don't want Dunkelzahn to have died, then let him remain President. If you want bug spirits to take over North America, have at it. It's your game.

See. Shadowrun line is on the verge of bankruptcy. They no longer have the cred to maintain those cool stormtroopers squads in black armors who broke into the homes of offending GM...

That would be very cool. Specially since L.D. is my favorite SR-character and a awesome decker. Not that I'm sure of how much I've actually contributed to this thread...



About MS.
He had a cool and new theory, sure. But his reaction to LouP was just over the top. Not to mention that his posts could have been summed up in a few sentences.

The thing is that LouP showed that there was a rationale, just not the one that MS had figured out. Well cry me a river.

Are you kidding, I've always wanted to be in a shadowtalk


Actually, if any of the free-lancers are reading this, I've always wanted ...


@L.D.

Actually, the only real problem I had with MS' parlainth idea is that he took the view that the artwork is this way, so oviously this is the intent. Whereas, it should really be that the artwork is this way and that gives me a really good idea.
Any actual problems, with reality or cannon, is always a "it's my game and this is how it works" kinda thing as Pistons was saying.