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BishopMcQ
Ideally when hunting large game, such as juggernaughts, you do it safari style. Open backed jeep or truck with mounts for bracing a rifle. Quick removal for jumping down and finishing the kill, or locked in for when driving game (or driving from game as the case may be).
hobgoblin
i just noticed that i messed up the math, as outside of the barret, with its 9DV/-4AP, the other sniper rifles have all 7DV/-3AP or 8DV/-3AP. that means that they will all just pling of the hardened armor of the juggernaut.

still, a barret in the hands of a avarage human would still only result in some 2 boxes of damage pr shot. so one could maybe take it down with a single clip, but it would be at least half the clip, not 3 shots...
Jimson
Where would a GM use a juggernaught in a game, besides a safari? I love the book, but I'm so used to running monsters/critters from a D&D background (just drop a monster and don't really have to justify it being there), that I don't know how to incorporate them into the game. As far as the armor, the great thing about games like this (and players possibly not know the details) is to change them on the fly. I don't know how many monsters in D&D I had to tweak.
Cheops
A lot of the bigger and/or rarer paranormal critters like the Juggernaut you have to build your session around. They are a focal point for action. Some of the smaller ones, that wouldn't be too expensive to keep, can be thrown in as guard animals or even pets. You can also "use" the animals in terms of how their various body parts can be used for arcane purposes.
DWC
They won't plink off the juggernaught's armor. Take two poachers, put them in a forty year old Land Rover, Give each one an Ares Desert Strike. They find a juggernaught, park a kilometer away, range it up neatly, and open fire.

4 in Longarms with a sniper rifle specialization, 6 agility, thanks to 2 levels of muscle toner, a smartlink, and 2 take aim actions gives each shooter a DP of 16, for an average of 5 hits. The juggernaught won't notice them from a kilometer away, so the attacks are success tests. 5 hits plus the 8DV is 13, more than enough to beat the jugg's armor, which was reduced to a mere 9. 26 soak dice gives an average of 9 hits, for 4 boxes of damage per shot for the first pair of shots. Knocking a hit off each shooter for the second shot since it doesn't have the take aim benefit means that the second shots are both 4 adjusted to a 12DV, still more than the juggernaught's 9 remaining armor. It takes 3 more boxes per shot, so after the opening ambush pass, the jugg has taken 14 boxes of damage.

It screams and charges, spending its' two actions to run. It closes about 160 meters in the turn, thanks to spending 4 simple actions running. They shrug and keep firing. It dies an embarassing death during the second turn, then they drive up, collect the valuable bits, throw them in the back of the truck, then leave.

Juggernaughts are tough enough to be a problem for the average jackass who isn't expecting an armadillo the size of a dump truck, but anyone who's even remotely prepared to deal with them will kill them with impunity.
hobgoblin
with the right plan, even great dragon can be killed wink.gif
DWC
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 5 2009, 10:27 AM) *
with the right plan, even great dragon can be killed wink.gif


There's good planning, then there's two guys with sniper rifles, minimal levels of augmentation, and a beat up old truck. Replace the two guys with a pair of rotodrones with LMGs loaded with SnS, and it only gets easier.
Malachi
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 5 2009, 08:53 AM) *
... 4 in Longarms with a sniper rifle specialization, 6 agility, thanks to 2 levels of muscle toner, a smartlink ...

Training equivalent to a Marine, plus Specialized, expensive Bioware, and using highly illegal Sniper Rifles. That's not how I would stat up your average "poacher."
DWC
QUOTE (Malachi @ Aug 5 2009, 11:43 AM) *
Training equivalent to a Marine, plus Specialized, expensive Bioware, and using highly illegal Sniper Rifles. That's not how I would stat up your average "poacher."


2 levels of muscle toner is 16 grand. Get it second hand, and it's cheaper than the truck they're riding in. Poachers hunting elephants and rhinos use vehicle mounted machineguns today. Going with sniper rifles instead isn't that out of line since they have a lower availability than the crew served heavy machineguns. I picked a skill of 4 with a specialization to represent a pair of guys in their 30s, who have been shooting rifles in some form or another for fifteen or twenty years, which isn't completely out of whack. Even without the specialization, they still reliably and almost effortlessly kill the jugg every time. The only hard part of poaching juggernaughts for alchemical components and the bounty on hides is going to be locating them since they're so rare.
Stahlseele
Just how did the juggernaught not notice them driving up over what seems to be miles of clear terrain?
kanislatrans
thats where the invisible mage and his f7 spirit using concealment come in. grinbig.gif
knasser
I don't know why you're using Sniper rifles in your example. when SR4A has stats for an "Elephant Gun". wink.gif

Anyway, I agree that Juggernauts are a little underpowered for their fluff. I also don't want arbitrary unkillable monsters - it wreaks of a GM saying "yeah, well, you can't kill it 'cause I say so", but they should be harder than this. I have a partial and RAW solution for anyone that wants it though. It can be expressed by the statement that "human beings are approximately 5'9" and weigh around 65kg. They can lift around 50kg." Anyone see anything wrong with that sentence? See where I'm going? wink.gif

K.
Blade
Drop Juggernauts?
knasser
QUOTE (Blade @ Aug 5 2009, 05:18 PM) *
Drop Juggernauts?


Or make them like giant piñata filled with Drop Bears. Upon death, the Juggernaut cracks open spilling 40 - 70 of the little furry monsters out to swarm the PCs. Rumours of variant Juggernauts that explode, showering their cargo in a 30m radius area of effect have yet to be confirmed.

More seriously, I was just thinking that if these are the stats for an average Juggernaut, it doesn't mean there aren't bigger ones out there with an extra point or three of Body and a little more armour. It wouldn't take much more to make them much harder to kill.

K.
DWC
This has lost sight of my point, which was that a sniper rifle is capable of penetrating a normal juggernaught's armor. I have no problem with some of them being bigger and tougher than the listed stats, but the listing is for the average juggernaut, which is what I was discussing.

As for how hard it is to get within a kilometer of a juggernaut, it isn't. Even with its' boosted senses, it's still a non-sapient with a 1 logic, making it dumb even for an animal. Assuming that it does locate the poachers before they open fire, it still won't close the gap before they put enough rounds into it to neutralize it.
Zurai
The fluff notes that Juggernauts can detect prey by scent up to 15 kilometers away.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Malachi @ Aug 5 2009, 07:43 AM) *
Training equivalent to a Marine, plus Specialized, expensive Bioware, and using highly illegal Sniper Rifles. That's not how I would stat up your average "poacher."


Still not as beefed up as the "Thugs" in Bad Moon Rising.
BishopMcQ
Some of those thugs were "leet" (I hope I used youth-speak appropriately here...)
DWC
QUOTE (Zurai @ Aug 5 2009, 01:13 PM) *
The fluff notes that Juggernauts can detect prey by scent up to 15 kilometers away.


The fluff also says they're unstoppable.

With an Intuition of 3 and a perception of 2, and Enhanced Scent, they've got a perception DP of 7, which does make them reasonably effective at tracking something by scent, if they can get within 30 meters of the target or to someplace that the target has recently been, but falls well short of being able to detect something 15 kilometers away.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Aug 5 2009, 07:42 PM) *
Some of those thugs were "leet" (I hope I used youth-speak appropriately here...)

ph41l
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 5 2009, 07:44 PM) *
The fluff also says they're unstoppable.

With an Intuition of 3 and a perception of 2, and Enhanced Scent, they've got a perception DP of 7, which does make them reasonably effective at tracking something by scent, if they can get within 30 meters of the target or to someplace that the target has recently been, but falls well short of being able to detect something 15 kilometers away.

Doesn't that kinda depend on where the wind is blowing from anyway?
As for them being unstoppable . . i so hope the hunters are bitches . .
BlueMax
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Aug 5 2009, 09:42 AM) *
Some of those thugs were "leet" (I hope I used youth-speak appropriately here...)

Indeed they were. And now with Running Wild out, I can have more fun with the Bio Drones in Bad Moon Rising.
At my players expense.

We enjoyed Bad Moon Rising, I just got flack for calling them thugs when they were truly l33t, yo.

BlueMax
/sorta waiting for more work from the queue
//nudge nudge
knasser
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 5 2009, 06:44 PM) *
Doesn't that kinda depend on where the wind is blowing from anyway?


Poachers with boosted muscles and Firearms 4 might be a bit high, but the idea of approaching from downwind of your prey should be pretty low on the Knowledge (Poaching) skill. Anyway, it also depends on how fast the wind is blowing and how quickly it changes. People are everywhere. If a juggernaut goes galloping off everytime it catches human scent, then you don't have to worry about penetrating its armour. They'll all die of exhaustion within a week. (And they'll only live that long because SR4A doesn't have proper rules for fatigue).

K.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
4 in Longarms with a sniper rifle specialization, 6 agility, thanks to 2 levels of muscle toner, a smartlink, and 2 take aim actions gives each shooter a DP of 16, for an average of 5 hits. The juggernaught won't notice them from a kilometer away, so the attacks are success tests. 5 hits plus the 8DV is 13, more than enough to beat the jugg's armor, which was reduced to a mere 9. 26 soak dice gives an average of 9 hits, for 4 boxes of damage per shot for the first pair of shots. Knocking a hit off each shooter for the second shot since it doesn't have the take aim benefit means that the second shots are both 4 adjusted to a 12DV, still more than the juggernaught's 9 remaining armor. It takes 3 more boxes per shot, so after the opening ambush pass, the jugg has taken 14 boxes of damage.

Or, if the shooters go for killing shots, they can each take a -4 dice pool penalty to get +4 DV. Dice pool of 12 still allows a buy of 3 hits or an average roll of 4 hits, giving DV 15/16! Now it dies even quicker!
Stahlseele
Hmm . . is there something about what HMHVV would do to Critters?
IS there something like HMHVV for Critters? Or at least certain Critters?
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 6 2009, 12:46 AM) *
Hmm . . is there something about what HMHVV would do to Critters?
IS there something like HMHVV for Critters? Or at least certain Critters?


Drop Bears are made what they are by HMHVV (As a Carrier) and the Chupacabras is another (Genetically Modified) Critter. So I guess that some Critters can be affected by the disease, but that it affects them in special ways not characteristic to the disease itself.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (Jimson @ Aug 5 2009, 03:21 PM) *
Where would a GM use a juggernaught in a game, besides a safari? I love the book, but I'm so used to running monsters/critters from a D&D background (just drop a monster and don't really have to justify it being there), that I don't know how to incorporate them into the game. As far as the armor, the great thing about games like this (and players possibly not know the details) is to change them on the fly. I don't know how many monsters in D&D I had to tweak.

I used some critters in pit fights. You get to expose the runners to some animals, give them some moral choices (save it, kill it, bet on it, ect.), and some plot hooks might develop out of it.

I had one PC bet his hand on a fight and lose. It was awesome.
siel
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 5 2009, 12:57 PM) *
This has lost sight of my point, which was that a sniper rifle is capable of penetrating a normal juggernaught's armor. I have no problem with some of them being bigger and tougher than the listed stats, but the listing is for the average juggernaut, which is what I was discussing.

As for how hard it is to get within a kilometer of a juggernaut, it isn't. Even with its' boosted senses, it's still a non-sapient with a 1 logic, making it dumb even for an animal. Assuming that it does locate the poachers before they open fire, it still won't close the gap before they put enough rounds into it to neutralize it.


Let's say sniper rifle has gone a long way since the last decade? smile.gif





What's the range penalty for the juggernaut to use fear on the poachers? willpower+magic =15. 

HappyDaze
QUOTE
What's the range penalty for the juggernaut to use fear on the poachers? willpower+magic =15.

None - if it can see them, it can hit them with LOS effects. Note that, much like a magician, it must see them, not hear them or smell them.
siel
So the juggernaut, assuming he can smell the poachers 1 km away, will still have to see the poachers. The poachers will probably want to sport some camo then?

Falconer
What self-respecting big game hunter isn't using the PJSS elephant rifle!

10P ap-2 firing ex-ex. That'll leave a nice mark in the big beasties... especially w/ called shot for damage. Base damage 14P + net hits.
(not a big fan of double barreling it, and easily modified to SA for 2 shots in a pass, then a round reloading).


As far as critter powers... they can be rough. Especially since they scale poorly and generally aren't subject to many penalties. (EG: visibility and such).
HappyDaze
And decoys. It's not going to be too hard to fool a jugger into fearing an inflatable doll with spray on scent at 1 km.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (siel @ Aug 5 2009, 08:45 PM) *
What's the range penalty for the juggernaut to use fear on the poachers? willpower+magic =15. 


I always loved the SR1 fluff about that power.

The shadowtalk went something like this.

Is the Fear power listed an actual magical power or is it the only logical response to seeing one of these things?

Falconer
From the sounds of it, it MIGHT be scary if anything seeing it was automatically subject to the fear power.

But tarrasque it is not. Easily taken down in a pass or two. Maybe if it had regeneration :).


Then there's the other side... if it isn't magically resistant... Look a force 9 stunbolt!
CodeBreaker
Misread that, I really should read twice post once.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 5 2009, 06:36 PM) *
From the sounds of it, it MIGHT be scary if anything seeing it was automatically subject to the fear power.

But tarrasque it is not. Easily taken down in a pass or two. Maybe if it had regeneration smile.gif.


Then there's the other side... if it isn't magically resistant... Look a force 9 stunbolt!

Back in my day....

Err in First Ed, it was magically resistant too. And on a combat scale you could call it Tarrasque like.

Now, its just another chump to be eaten by a Force 9 Spirit summoned on the fly.

BlueMax
BlueMax
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 5 2009, 06:36 PM) *
From the sounds of it, it MIGHT be scary if anything seeing it was automatically subject to the fear power.

But tarrasque it is not. Easily taken down in a pass or two. Maybe if it had regeneration smile.gif.


Then there's the other side... if it isn't magically resistant... Look a force 9 stunbolt!

Back in my day....

Err in First Ed, it was magically resistant too. And on a combat scale you could call it Tarrasque like.

Now, its just another chump to be eaten by a Force 9 Spirit summoned on the fly.

BlueMax
siel
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 5 2009, 10:27 PM) *
And decoys. It's not going to be too hard to fool a jugger into fearing an inflatable doll with spray on scent at 1 km.





Haha. For a second, I thought you meant the juggernaut would be afraid of the inflatable doll.  wobble.gif


knasser
Afraid? I was thinking an inflatable Juggernaut doll and the spray on scent would be pheremones. There has to be a reason it has such a refined sense of smell after all. Remember, as well as decoys, there are also lures. wink.gif
siel
Hmmm...
Juggernaut has strength of 42. 

Movement of 15/45 and 2 IP.

He can spend his combat turn making four running tests.

He can buy 10 successes on each test, resulting in a movement rate of 85 meter per combat turn.

This is equal to 102 km/h.




If we allow the juggernaut to use ramming test using running skill (or unarmed combat) in place of vehicle skill, the juggernaut will roll 5+5=10 dice versus target's Dodge + reaction. Since his speed is at 85 meter, he does damage equal to body x 2 of 34 DV. 




Is it wrong for me to want to allow any character to use the ramming rule instead of just vehicles?  wobble.gif
Fuchs
The Juggernaut is far too big to be a problem for any state with a military. Patrol drones carrying ATMs will wreck it from above. And you can assume that ayn state that has sightings of those critters will spend a few grands on such drones.
hobgoblin
question is, would said ramming be a juggernaut suicide?

hmm, not quite, but it would take about 9 boxes of damage...
Stahlseele
QUOTE
If we allow the juggernaut to use ramming test using running skill (or unarmed combat) in place of vehicle skill, the juggernaut will roll 5+5=10 dice versus target's Dodge + reaction. Since his speed is at 85 meter, he does damage equal to body x 2 of 34 DV.

Well, at least now it's closer to unstoppable . . not many things that can in that path and still be there after the fact right?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Aug 6 2009, 03:01 AM) *
The Juggernaut is far too big to be a problem for any state with a military. Patrol drones carrying ATMs will wreck it from above. And you can assume that ayn state that has sightings of those critters will spend a few grands on such drones.


On the flip side, it would also be easy to track these for defense. (Necessary now more than ever since they are paper). If they are a vital cultural icon, I can see the drones with ATMs tracking them to prevent hunters.

Like most NPC plot devices in Fourth, its all about the organization related to the target. There are no more boss fights.

BlueMax
/so I guess its the PCC Juggernaut squad that should be feared.
//or not.
knasser
You know wild Juggernauts might not be that bad, but if I were a PC, I'd catch one and get some armour made for it. Even 5 points of Ballistic would make a scary difference. And mil-spec armour already has to be custom fitted to the wearer, so you might as well go the whole way...

Or if that's too extreme for you, just get some crazy shaman to Quicken Armour on the thing. Yeah - glowing green unstoppable armadillos. That's the way I'd do it. wink.gif biggrin.gif
DWC
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 01:21 PM) *
You know wild Juggernauts might not be that bad, but if I were a PC, I'd catch one and get some armour made for it. Even 5 points of Ballistic would make a scary difference. And mil-spec armour already has to be custom fitted to the wearer, so you might as well go the whole way...

Or if that's too extreme for you, just get some crazy shaman to Quicken Armour on the thing. Yeah - glowing green unstoppable armadillos. That's the way I'd do it. wink.gif biggrin.gif


Or possess it.
siel
Or capture it. Pg34 of running wild, untrained juggernaut goes for 1,500,000 nuyen. The only one more expensive would be an icedrakon

Stahlseele
For how much would a TRAINED Juggernaut go?
And how do you train one of those things anyway?
And why would you? Stirrup interface and some implant-Cannons.
Now you ahve yourself a living tank out there.
siel
If you go by the trained animal sidebar, it depends on training level and willpower.

Juggernaut has a willpower of 9, so that's a x 15 multiplier.

Depends on the training level, it would have an additional multiplier of 1.25, 2, 5, 7, or 10.




So.. "Juggernaut, fetch!" Would probably be base cost 1,500,000 * 15 * 1.5 = 33 750 000 nuyen.

Which is probably better spent buying 14 t-birds, or a patrol sub, or something else. rotate.gif


On the other hand, if you can capture, train, and sell one... yeah, good luck chummer.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 6 2009, 02:29 PM) *
For how much would a TRAINED Juggernaut go?
And how do you train one of those things anyway?
And why would you? Stirrup interface and some implant-Cannons.
Now you ahve yourself a living tank out there.

Older Editions sure, a living tank. Now, just sell it and buy a Vector Thrust Vehicle with real armor.

BlueMax
Stahlseele
Hmm . . use external version of the auto injector with drugs that give pain resistance and regeneration. Doesn'T feel the hurt, doesn't stay hurt.
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