Careful what you wish for

See, thats exactly his problem. He has no clue what he should or would wish for outside of work.

Like so many people I know....

BlueMax

OK, I am writing up the intro posts as we speak, but I need to ask the Decker types a question:

I would like to go with either:

[Skill+Attribute]<Cap Hits:Program RTG>

OR

[Skill+Program RTG]<Cap Hits:Attribute>

(For Technomancers, your Complex Forms are both Attribute AND Program Rating for these purposes)

Do those of you with Matrix capabilities have a preference? Or would you really prefer me to just run the Matrix RAW?

Most of the Matrix-centric characters are already weighted heavily towards mental stats, but I thought I'd ask. I've been having a running discussion in the main Shadowrun section of DS, but I'm going to leave this one up to you folks. Just keep in mind, whatever you pick, it applies to the Badguys equally, for better or for worse.

What...there's gonna be bad guys?

If I read that correctly, for TMs the two choices are equal. If true, I do not want to weigh in on something that only impacts bad guys and others.
And if I read it correctly, I don't have to change Orb.

BlueMax

After somewhat extensive debate elsewhere, I decided to make ONE aspect of life easier for our Virtuakinetic friends. After all, they have it hard in so many other ways, especially starting out. But it DOES affect your opposition BlueMax, so you might want to give it a LITTLE thought. *grin*

No, she's just trying to scare us. Like stories of tax collectors or foreign countries, they aren't really real, they're just made up to scare us.

I've no matrix abilities at all, and so I'd personally prefer Skill + Program with max hits equal to logic.

Mostly because this benefits me rules wise (Easier to get a high rating program than it is to improve my logic).

So yeah, rewrote something here about 10 times, but my rambling finally made me decide that a more 'realistic' standpoint would be to have it be Skill + Logic with max hits equal to program.

How I came to this was: Imagine two people. Both have a skill of 3, but one is a genius working on an average program (6 logic, 3 program) and the other is an average guy with the latest and greatest software. Using Skill + Logic (max program) you get the smart person having an average of 3 hits, which maxes out his program. The normal person however gets an average of 2 hits, which shows that he isn't smart and/or skilled enough to make full use of all the extra bells and whistles, while the smart guy is pushing his program to the limits.

Think about how this compares to real life. I mean how many people use all the 50 billion functions built into MSWord? For most people notepad does just as good a job for basic things, and even when using word, you only make use of a handful of extra functions. So the difference between that rating 2 and rating 6 (Just as an example) mostly goes to waste for the average user. Similarly when writing a program, I can do almost as good a job using notepad as eclipse, even though one is vastly more sophisticated, yet I can do a better job on notepad than someone less skilled can using eclipse.

Anyway, just my 2 nuyen, or maybe a bit more. Hope that was all at least somewhat understandable. I wrote this in the browser thing, which is a rating 1, so I can only get so many hits

Yeah, in order to make the opponents weaker you want to go with the 'realistic' approach I outlined above. It is far easier for the bad guys to get a bunch of rating six programs than it is to get a bunch of super geniuses.

This may sound really stupid to the vast lot of ye but I don't care.

I prefer not to game my opponent only myself. Games become boring if I know too much about my opponents mechanics.

Example:
Most people when they play an MMO read a page describing a boss and his powers and go in with 1-3 predetermined tactics.
Whereas, I go in blind and *experience* things for myself. Often developing one of the three tactics but occasionally finding a new one.

So, I do give this thought but, the thought is about the wonder and the mystery.

Call me a helpless romantic or a fool, they both fit.

BlueMax

How about a romantic fool?

Isn't there a song along those lines?

I'm sure that there is more than one.

True

Attribute+Skill (Limit: Program) gets my vote. Of the two options it makes the most sense and is the most consistent with the other rules.

Thank you, everybody, for your support.

That is what I had essentially settled upon, and it was my original idea as presented in that other discussion thread.

I feel a lot better that people agree with me on the feel it will bring to the game; That's entirely the idea and it's heartening to have players who support me in that. You literally have no idea.

I know we'll probably run into a couple bumps in the road as part of that, but we'll see as we go along.

Incidentally, a Technomancer with Complex Form ( Stealth ) 7 will by definition be invisible to somebody with "conventional" programs, and that's just fine with me. They're SUPPOSED to be stealthy as drek. Mind you, if they start acting in an obvious fashion (like attacking), they're going to show up like anybody else. And if the Decker spends EDGe, they blow the cap off just like with any other skill roll.

I actually plan to "handwavium" a lot of the Matrix side of this, based on the "general" strength of your Decker/'Mancer. They're along, so that's enough for me. Now, when it comes to the EXCITING hacks, that's where the dice will come out.

*gets back to writing that opening*

Jordan isn't skilled at working with a commlink, thats why she has an agent program, to do that stuff for her, she sets it to a task, and it does it on its own. How would this rule affect that? Would it be Agent + Program rating in that case, or would it be Agent Rating + Agent Rating with a cap of the program rating?

Given that it is usually System + Program, I'd imagine it would become System + Agent Rating capped by Program.

Yes.

Obviously, this is tertiary for Mach.
However, he serves as a good example of what this does to the "average person". Mach has Logic 3, and conventional computer related skills (no hacking) of 2. He also has a couple of programs at rating 6.
(The cost for the programs is irrelevant, as they are common use programs.)
The difference is that with the approach we are using, he is rolling 5 dice against a cap of 6, vs rolling 8 dice against a cap of 3.

When all is said and done, I think the agreed result is believable.
Yours,
Joel / Mach

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier. Skill + Program is better for 'joe average' but Skill + Logic is more realistic, and somewhat better for a dedicated logic type, as well as allowing for people to be reasonable hackers without spending a lifetime's worth of nuyen on programs.

After all, hackers are good because they are smart and know what they are doing, not because they bought "Hack-you-good" from someone.

It's not that it's simply more realistic, it's that it also adheres to the rest of the game a lot better. Everyone else has to roll Attribute + Skill, so why not hackers?

Because computers are totally different from anything else in the universe.

Keren, the praetor is already the most powerful SMG in the game.

Ammo capacity 50
1 point free recoil compensation
electronic firing>> another point of recoil
retractable stock


Thats 3 points before you even start with mods and a gasvent. Why the extra armor piercing?

Also, adding 1 DV <to the assault rifle> takes a "mediocre" weapon and makes it head and shoulders above the rest.

<edit> Now i see the DV for the Praetor has been Reduced, making it mediocre.

He took one DV off, actually. The new stats are 4P/-2.

Apparently, team 1 is done. I dunno what that means, but I thought I'd update. I can soak damage like... nobodies business. I have a Body of 9, Titanium Bone Lacing and 14 points of ballistic and 10 points of impact armour. On top of that, I'm dodging like crazy too...

The Praetor doesn't actually have a collapsible stock; It's a bullpup configuration weapon. But it DOES include a built-in foregrip, and you can use a sling with it. It's based conceptually on the Fabrique Nationale Herstal P-90 Personal Defense Weapon. The light-weight round doesn't carry the mass of a heavy round, being a paltry 5.7mm in diameter; It DOES however move at between 2x and 2.5x the velocity of the equivalent "heavy" rounds, and combined with it's "rifle bullet"-like shape, it packs formidable penetration power. It's a whole new class of round (Heckler & Koch's MP-7 uses the same idea with it's 4.7mm bullet) that reflects the increasing incidence of heavy body armor. In one test I have seen, the 5.7x28mm round penetrated a Class III vest clean through the front and out the back at 100 meters. Fired from a 4" pistol-length (vice the 8-10" SMG barrel) the velocigty drops between 15% and 20%, but it's still better than twice the velocity of most pistol rounds. It also means the thing has a rediculously flat trajectory and consequently the two "pistols" that use it, while getting only a -1 AP instead of the SMG's -2, it gains the Heavy Pistol range table.

Why would somebody carry a light pistol then? Well, a couple reasons. First, you can have a subsonic round easier. (The Medium Pistol round loses the extra AP before applying the "Subsonic" template to the ammo.) Second, most of the "medium" pistols are going to be fairly expensive, and have higher availability. For a 'runner, that's not such an impediment, but for Average Joe, or Schmucky the Corporate Grunt, that's going to be important. After all, low-level guards exist to keep the honest people honest more than anything else, kind of like the locks on your car.

On another note, yes, we finally have a "real" old-style sammy. I can't say for sure it's going to be that important, but those of you who are veterans of the shadows know how quickly things can go to drek. The 'run (actually, to start off, it's "runS" plural) will have two separate teams. Based on the available talent and the target(s) in question, I have already broken up the "teams". The first team co-incidentally already has all their material into me. I may still tweak an item or two (re-doing all of your math is taking longer than anticipated) but most of them already have approval and have gotten their "incentives". As those of you who have worked closely with me (by IM usually), I'm fairly generous with the ... toys, but you should probably think what that means for your hoops down the line. *GM smile*

Anyhow, that's it for now. I have some PMs to compose and more math to do, and the text of the thread to finish. Work's not been cooperating in the least, but we'll see how tonight goes. Push comes to shove, I'm off tomorrow.

Anyone want to catch a Screamers game while we wait for the Johnson?

Ok I want to get things rolling so instead of making a dwarf named Violent Kid, Im going to convert my elf to the karma build. Ill have numbers soon but heres the basic concept.

Shadow is a mystic adept. His mentor Spirit is Chameleon. He likes p.257.

Adept powers: traceless walk, combat sense, improved blades, improved infiltration

Spells: Physical Camouflage, Shadow, Increase Reflexes, Gecko Crawl, Magic fingers, Elemental Aura(smoke), Deflection

I know he is similar to an existing character, however stealth is one area where teamwork is only possible if multiple characters can do it. Ill probably throw in a gun for good measure.

Keren, instead of changing the base weapon damage, i suggest you offer special ammunition. Does it have the same stats as an existing ammunition?

Special ammo is not what I had in mind.

The weapons in the book are Gener-o-Bland^TM in the extreme. The FN HAR has NOTHING to recommend it over anything, even the lowly AK; The built-in Gas-Vent is a joke. Sure, it's not an accessory, but it still takes the barrel slot for all intents and purposes. But put in the heavier round it SHOULD have?

Oh, duh! The G12A3z is also the same stats. In older ed's of the game, those guns actually had higher base damage IIRC.

The other guns, you're trading damage for penetration on the P93, arguably a LOSS in terms of net damage, unless the difference is P or S based on getting through armor in the first place. The FN 5-7C is inferior to the other weapons mainly due to ammunition capacity. This gives it a LITTLE something. And the Security 600, that magazine capacity SCREAMS "Medium Pistol", so I figured, why not? Besides, it means the guards have a slightly better chance against you 'runner types. And there are plenty of reasons to choose other weapons in the class.

Small side note here, if you select a Medium Pistol weapon: if you choose subsonic ammo, you lose the "improvement" to penetration before you apply the "subsonic" template. It's effective because it's so fast; It has to drop even further than most rounds to go subsonic.

Oh! I forgot to tell you this (and it's in your favor, big time!)

Unless it's a "Medium Pistol Ammo" weapon:

Light Pistols, Machine Pistols and SMGs all fire "Light Pistol Ammo".

Assault Rifles (except the HAR and the G12) and LMGs fire "Light Rifle Ammo", as do any 6P damage Sporting Rifles.

MMGs, HMGs and 7P Sporting Rifles (and the HAR and G12) fire "Medium Rifle Ammo"

8P rifles fire "Heavy Rifle Ammo"

Sniper Rifles need special ammo - sorry. And it has to be apropriate to the damage code.

The Ruger Warhawk fires "X-Pistol Ammo" while that PJSS Elephant gun fires "X-Rifle Ammo"

In summary, there are two classes of ammo: Rifle (long casing) and Pistol (short casing)
Then each class comes in Light, Medium, Heavy and "X"

That means you can swap bullets between compatible platforms... like your Light Pistol and SMG. I DID mention there were reasons to carry a Light Pistol, right?

There are actually detailed rules behind the changes and they're very internally consistent.

OK, so you're stealthy, but what do you DO once you've snuck in? Just fight? Or Breaking & Entering? Demolitions? *wink*

Ive got about 100 karma to spend on whatever the party needs. Killing is his business So B&E makes sense, but whether thats major or minor will depend on what the party needs. Am I to understand that I get <.5 essence loss without magic loss? And that I can initiate twice?

also how do you interpret the following passage:

I don't think you get any essence loss at all without losing a point of magic. What lead you to believe any different? I think B&E would be good as well. My character is stealth, but lacks the B&E parts.

As for the passage... odd, sounds like you get your full magic value as far as adept abilities are concerned, but I know from experience Keren will treat adept magic and mage magic as separate things (Fairly certain on this).

Yeah, any amount of Essence loss equates to Magic loss. I'm not aware of any house rule to the contrary.

And the passage you quoted works exactly like it says. For purposes of determining how many dice you throw down when casting a spell, Roxanne would use Magic 3. For purposes of determining how many Power Points she has, she uses a Magic of 1. For purposes of determining, say, her maximum Magic rating, the number of foci she can bind, or anything else that relies solely on Magic but is independent of spellcasting/adept powers, she has a Magic of 4.

Just thought I'd make that more clear. He's probably struck a deal...

I can't decide if I like SR3, where you had a magic of 6 that went down as your essence did, or SR4, where you can buy your magic to a 9...

My guess is that Trench is interested in the fact that the example shows the character getting 4 levels of an adept power despite only having one point of magic devoted to it (Because I think that maximum levels of adept power is equal to magic usually).

But yeah, what exactly you have a question about would help alot, because 'interpret this' often leads to books being written.

Wait, SR4 lets you exceed your Essence+Grade for Magic? Can you quote me a page for this? That'll drastically change a character of mine.

To me, that passage implies that for some purposes, a mystic adepts magic is not divided. Keep in mind this is the example from the section that defines the adept. It says you split your pool between adept powers and spellcasting dice. For All other purposes, use your full magic. That would mean for adept powers like attribute boost where you roll magic. That would mean that for the purpose of max force a mystic adept uses full magic as well.

I thought I read one of the characters saying something about that. I havent struck a deal yet.

He didn't say that. I think he is forgetting (or I'm remembering wrong) that initiation existed in SR3 as well, and that it also raised your magic. So basically magic used to only come in full power form, where as now you can have someone who hasn't reached their full potential yet.

The only time it's not divided is when you're dealing with things that affect your overall magic capability. Again, like determining how many foci you can have or resisting the drain of a metaplanar quest.

And thanks for the clarification, Karoline. That would have been a pretty big deal if true.

This. In SR3, magic was really high until it was lowered. Now, it can go both ways.

Well, the way it came out (with some DEV input) in another thread is that if it involves DICE, it's split. So things that provide a boost equal to your MAGic would count the split (Boost Attribute). Things that have a RTG use the RTG, which itself is capped to the "split" rating. The last category falls under Dr. F's definition; An example is "the adept can maintain this power for up to MAGic hours" uses the full MAGic rating.

And as I just touched on, if you only have 1 actual MAGic point in "Adept Powers", you can't have more than 1 rank in any RTG power. Even if you purchase extra "Power Points" as an optional Metamagic Power, it's not raising that split, so you're broadening your knowledge, NOT deepening it.

That make sense?

Incidentally, Trench, FYI, I'm going over the character sheets that have been submitted in detail, and we're shockingly well covered in close combat power. It's almost like you people are paranoid about me disarming you of your guns or something. We have a couple of people who are decent in stealth, but we are in need of more Breaking & Entering (Lockpicking, Hardware) and vehicle skills. Heavy weapons are covered, and ranged combat is about moderately covered. More to the point, with what you've provided so far, Johnson wouldn't be coming to you at this point... maybe later, but certainly not for the first 'run. If all Johnson wanted was a "hit", there are ... statted NPCs that are very well suited to the task. If you're genuinely interested in helping the group as a whole, support skills are much more in demand. Haven't seen a dedicated Medic yet, still kind of soft on "face" skills, more vehicle skills would be prime, things like that.

Oh, and to everybody: I know not all the gear listings are complete, but are your DocWagon^TM contracts paid up?

Normally I avoid them like the plague on a runner (seriously, what professional criminal is going to run around with a tracking single on his wrist and hire a company to basically come arrest him whenever he gets hurt?), but my character for this game does indeed have a basic contract.

Well, technically, DocWagon is its own extraterritorial entity, including any ambulance they pick you up in. This means among other things that the corp you offended would have to go through extradition procedures with DocWagon to get at you from the moment you get chucked into the ambulance. This power also allows them to enter other corp's territory to come pick you up (Though they may not risk it depending on contract and corp in question). It also means that the other corp won't shoot at the ambulance, even when they are crashing onto their property and picking up their enemies.

So yeah, they're actually the exact opposite of being arrested really, so long as you can get out of there before the procedures are done (Which can take a heck of a long time, DocWagon doesn't really want to give up a paying customer)

The real problem with DocWagon contracts is that even their fastest response time is several times longer than it takes someone to bleed out based on current rules, so they may just end up picking up your corpse. Still, if you manage to stabilize they could be a life saver for a job gone way south.

Tempest has her own reasons for not having a contract with them though

Actually, extraterioritality means the CAN'T come on the compound, but they can (and will) fight to pull your hoops out of the fire once you hit the street. There's even a short story in one of the books about that very fact...

It may be more than one. Doc Wagon will be a good idea in this campaign with its house ruled healing.


IM from Orb

"Chummers, your missing a hell of a match. The Sabres have two kids who remind me of Punch and Judy. This is going to be an awesome season."

Oh? I seem to remember reading a story talking about how they literally crashed through another companies gates/fence to get to their contract's location and pull him out from enemy fire. Even seem to recall some of his buddies wanting to hitch a ride but the medics telling them to take a hike.

No, Mach does not have a DocWagon contract.
This is driven by several sets of perception:
1) Many times, as Shdowarunners, we are going to be in places that DocWagon just won't go. While I don't know what we are going to be doing, an awful lot of situations are either corporate or to hot for DocWagon Basic. (And the higher grades are just too expensive to prepay on a yearly basis.)
2) Wandering around trying to hide with a device which, if things go partially wrong, will start broadcast a load radio signal seems like a risky choice. Yes, one can argue that if it starts broadcasting, then you probably have sufficiently alerted the enemy for it not to matter. But I think many cases are just not that clear cut

As a bodyguard, if things are going wrong, the image of rescue arriving for me before my client is just wrong.
Admittedly, my clients probably have DocWagon super-platinum. But I don't get to ask that question.

Also, as someone pointed out, the time from when you get injured enough to call them till you are dead is much shorter than any meaningful response time. The only advantage I can see is that they have enough muscle to move my body if I am alive but unconscious. Typically, moving the down friends out is my job.

One of the odd things is that where everything else that has continuing costs is in months, Docwagon is in Years. A year is, as far as I can tell, half of forever in this sort of game.

Yours,
Joel / Mach

Much closer to twice of forever actually

Your second point largely depends on how you have it set to go off, and remember that even if it goes off, it is still only broadcasting its existence to DocWagon. It could be operating in hidden mode if you wanted, and would overall not be any easier to track down than any wireless communication the team might be doing.

Orb will want Doc Wagon Gold for the discounts on medium to long term Medical care.
The rescue aspect is SR1-SR2, and a hair of SR3. SR4's quest for realism and accuracy is that kid pooping in the pool 6 AM on the 4th of July.


BlueMax

Question: Does my Ogre stomach count for the hospitalized lifestyle? (It's a flat 20% reduction off all lifestyles, so I'd say so...)

If so, does this stack with the DocWagon contract? (So, would I pay 350:nuyen: for basic care or 700:nuyen: for instensive care?)

It probably won't matter. I'll have either a basic or a gold DocWagon Contract, depending on money left over.

At least he can stomach hospital food.

As a note, being Virtuakinetically gifted fits well into a Hospitalized Lifestyle and food on the drip.

BlueMax

He'd probably prefer grass and bark. It tastes better. Keeping it down isn't the problem.

As an aside, currently for my gun closet, I'm looking at a P93, which takes Light Pistol Ammo, a FN HAR, A Remington 750 and an Ultimax MMG, all three of which use medium rifle ammo.

Should I be looking at another gun? What would you guys recommend? Looking it over, I'm lacking an easily concealable gun, but thats about it. Maybe a shotgun, if I really need it. (Oh! These are eating up about 3k each. The MMG, when I finish with it, WILL be even more. Probably closer to 12k or 15k. Woo.)

@Kerenshara: Does the internal smartlink take up slots, or no? Does the description in arsenal override the one in the core book?