Somehow I just pictured Heston in Planet of the Apes shouting WHY??? You did it you maniacs!

Well mostly because of S&S really But fluff wise because I see Spirits to not have any discernible anatomy or brain that brain that can pass out like humans. When you attack spirits you have to go all out, not pulling punches.

Ever heard of Manabolt? it SHOULD be a good spirit killer. Stunbolts/Stunball is overused anyway on anything. Also magic users can use weapon foci and ignore ITNW anyway, and even attack with Charisma in astral combat. Nope I don't feel sorry for them.

Normal people have difficulty against high-force Spirits... just like normal people without S&S ammo or tasers used to struggle against them anyway.

And if you beat the Hardened Armor (ItNW) then you're doing P damage anyhow. No, I like it generally across the board. Nice idea. I think I'm going to lift it.

Or you can just rule that the damage from S&S and tasers isn't "elemental"... because its not. "Elemental" electricity would by raw; krakling lightning that blows things apart (does structural damage). 99.99% of the damage from a taser is due to nervous induction; in effect, its more like a toxin than an elemental effect. And spirits ARE immune to toxins....

Well something to that effect except I don't try to use your "doublethink" to justify it as RAW

Lightening bolts and bursts of electricity from charged fences, tram power lines etc. does P damage and will of course affect a Spirit (except the secondary effect). Unless it somehow soaks the damage with body of course.

Oh, that's an OLD thread. I made that precise argument. The supposition (by RAW) would be that somehow you got into a tubular 9mmx20mm package the following:

• aerodynamic shape, otherwise the relatively light weight would generate all kinds of wind drift and lost accuracy at ranges longer than a firefight in a phone booth
• structural integrity sufficient to handle a couple hundred g's of acceleration
• structural integrity sufficient to handle friction of the barrel and the gyroscopic twist in flight
• armor-defeating, electrically super-conductive "prongs"
• some kind of handwavium super-conducting super-capacitor able to hold tens of thousands of volts for tens of years from the factory
• a safety system to prevent discharge during handling and loading
• a regulator circuit to deliver even, predictable peak discharge to the target
• miscelaneous wiring to make the whole thing work together
• some mechanism to stop the spinning of the "prongs", because you don't want a drill bit - those prongs are going to HAVE to be weak in shear if you want them to penetrate without overpenetrating

In short, it's a bit of a stretch. Remember: the default rounds are able to deliver enough voltage with three good hits to actually kill a person.

That's why I liked the idea of spirits immune to stun: there's so many other things that do "stun" damage that are blanket covered by that ruling. Killing hands isn't stun. Bone lacing isn't stun (I've seen people punch hard enough to defeat a moderately tough spirit's ItNW). Were it me, I'd rule that armor penetration rules that aren't "magical" in nature don't apply either. What more good does an armor penetrating round do if the actual question of durability is the ability to disrupt more or the spirit's manifested self? I.E. the bigger bullet bites bigger chunks out. Essentially, I have long held that the spirit's ItNW is more about a complete lack of anything we'd consider "vital" or even "systemic" that you can damage, so you're really looking for a big enough hit to blow big chunks out of the thing that it's not just ignoring the hit entirely.

Ok, that was a bit incoherent, even for me, but it's been a long day at the office and I'm on my way home. Sorry.

At least these points could be solved by a miniture version of this concept. How well that would work, I don't know, but maybe it's feasible.

They're disrupted one way or the other. All removing their stun track does is remove effective weapons,* not make them harder to kill.

*I.e. any weapon that only does stun damage, like SnS, stunbolt/ball, and gel rounds.

If it were true that ItNW was caused by lack of anatomy or a requirement to disrupt the spirit's form then possessed subjects wouldn't get it. I've always held that ItNW is a kind of mundane rejecting barrier surrounding the spirit, because by RAW that's the only thing that makes sense to my mind.

<shrugs>

We all obviously know how underpowered magicians are, so naturally the best thing to do is make them even more powerful! It's a brilliant tactic!

I, personally, am a strong advocate of doing the exact opposite. Because, you know, spirits and magicians are more than powerful enough already; they don't need any fucking help. I'd rather see more means of defeating a spirit's immunity to normal weapons. Be they specialty rounds (using the same costs as modifiers as Silver Rounds; meaning they're inferior to even Regular Rounds but very effective against spirits) composed of radical elements or allowing raw elemental damage to bypass it as well. You know, flamethrowers, tasers, water cannons, etc.

Again: It's one thing to despise Stick-n-Shock Rounds. They are a bit over-the-top. But to use it to justify all the insanity that's coming up in this thread is completely... well, insane.

I like the idea of magical death bullets. Something ineffective against normal enemies but that bypasses ItNW. If you don't like Stick n Shock then get rid of it and replace it with something like this, just so long as mundanes have some anti-spirit weapons. But really, making spirits immune to stun damage? That's just begging a player to play a possession mage, summon a Force 6 guardian spirit, and kill everyone in Afghanistan ("They want to start a magic Jihad? Fine, let them be defenseless when the 12 ItNW comes!" )

While I agree that mages are overpowered there is a fine line to cross here. Spirits should be scary and deadly, if there is anti-spirit ammo or heck maybe S&S is too effective on them it totally devalues spirits. If you can routinely fire a burst into them and kill them off who really freakin cares if you summon one for combat.

Now while I think S&S is unbalanced which is why I don't load up with tons of it, I always have a clip of it to deal with spirits. Like I said, spirits should be powerful and dangerous to norms, but norms should be able to deal with them and not just hide behind the mages skirts.

Personally I like the house rule where S&S is shotgun ammo, and then lots of characters might load up with a taser to deal with spirits, or S&S if they carry a shotgun. I think it gives the right balance where you can deal with magic, S&S isn't overpowered, and magic just doesn't mean you switch to the clip of S&S and burst the spirit to death in a couple actions.

Not to antagonize here, but how is that any different than what happens now? I agree with you that SnS is the goto option for Spirits if you are not magically aware (at least for those who cannot afford any other option)... But teh solution is to make it only available for Shotguns? Really? So, Now, when you are confronted by a spirit, instead of pulling out your preffered weapon with SnS, you pull out the required weapon with SnS or use a tazer of one sort or another...

If you have not noticed, this is not a fix, nor a limitation... all it does is force the character to carry something extra (in the case of a Tazer, if your characters do not carry those by default; at least 2 in my group do) or additional Variant Ammunition (For the Shotgun, assumming that they do not have a better option like AV Ammo or APDS)... How is that different than carrying that extra Ammunition for the Weapon of Choice?

I really do not understand all the complaints about SnS... with all of the various other weapons and Ammunitions available, SnS is really not all that powerful... Is it Ubiquitous, Yes... Is it All Powerful, No... The biggest bonus to the SnS (And Tazers in particular) is the secondary Damage (-2 to actions for a short duration)... rarely do characters fail the Resistance roll for the Effect (Unconsciousness) unless they are sporting no armor at all... even at 1/2 armor and no Nonconductivity; 9 dice gives you even odds, and 12 dice lets you by the hits outright (Would not allow this, but you get the point)... so the most effect you will probably get is going to be a bit of stun (Maybe) and -2 for a few rounds...

Compare that to a Weapon that has APDS Ammunition and 8 points of Ballistic for a Character... Same Shotgun with a Penetrator (Shotgun APDS rounds) provides a reduction of the armor such that any damage will be physical, and they are probably gaining more effect overall than the SnS rounds are... Put that on a Weapon that is inherently more dangerous (Say a Sniper Rifle with a -3 AP; Any but the Barret) and the armor has terefore been almost completely negated... an equivalent SnS round still does 6(s)e...

There are weapons that are way more deadly out there than a weapon shooting SnS ammunition... and they are usually carried by your 'Runners, or their opposition... Now, will there be individuals using SnS over Tazers... yes... but there are MORE people (on probably several ordsers of magnitude) who utilize the ubiquitous variations of the Tazer that are out there... after all, you do not need a license for the Tazer, where EVERY other Firearm out there either requires a License, or is outright banned for civilian ownership...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

I wasn't implying what I said was "RAW"; I was talking about electrical effects that are raw, as in depending on raw power, instead of depending on the artificially created signal waveform's interaction with the target's physiology.

My main problem with eliminating stun from affecting spirits is that some things that clearly SHOULD affect them, won't. For example, a troll bashing on one with a baseball bat should be (aproximatley) as good as one who uses bone lacing. And obviously, a water cannon should do a fair bit of damage to a fire elemental...

If you haven't noticed – limiting general ammo to weapon specific ammo is a limitation.
And it fixes both the issues (damage, techlevel) that come from it being available to light handguns.

What you keep babbling about is not the issue.

I disagree... It is EXACTLY the issue...

No Worries though... It still ain't broken, so I see no need to fix it or limit it...

Keep the Faith

For the spirits part of the equation it solves burst fires of doom for me. SnS destroys spirits through burst fire of doom, in a taser it is single shot and while it will hurt the spirit it wont disrupt it in the first shot. Shotguns are big enough you only carry them when you are loaded for bear. And taking aout spirits quicker when loaded up like that is fine with me.

As for the general complaint about SnS, it is because it is the best ammo in the game by a huge margin, yes other things do more damage, but that is like when I pull out my white knight I do more damage, heck even then you aren't losing damage by going with SnS and frequently you are doing more. It makes a SMG more deadly than many heavy weapons. It is upping simple concealable weapons into the big guns you can't really walk around with.

Personally, keeping SnS at a flat 6S sounds like a good plan to me...

I don't like how it affects spirits but I guess anything to give the mundanes so help...

I can agree that Burst Fire options are seen as an issue, whether it is SnS or not... so I have no real arguments with that...

However, I do not believe that SnS is the best ammo in the game by a huge margin... if it was, nobody would take anything else, ever... and from my experience, that just does not happen... Hell, I believe that the 1 Clip of SnS that I carry is the ONLY clip of SnS within the group that I operate with (and it consists of 6 other individuals)... is it useful... Sure... Is it the BEST in the game... I would say Not...

It has its uses, but those uses are exactly the same uses that you could use a Standard Tazer for... 3 of which do the same damage as Sns rounds (6s,e), 1 which is weaker (5s,e), and the other which is exceptionally better (8s,e)... the only benefit of SnS rounds vs. a Tazer is Range... and honestly, most combats happen at a range that a normal Tazer can be used in (20 Meters, Statistics actually put it at 7 meters or so... Anything further than that and I can give you rationales for better weapons with better ammunition choices)... for those rare occassions where a SnS round would be better than a Tazer, there are other rounds that can do the job just as well or better... for less money...

Besides... Show me an armor that can add additional dice (over its armor rating) to a resistance test against normal (Regular) ammunition... I am pretty sure that you cannot do so, and yet, even Armored Clothing with absolutely NO IMPACT ARMOR can still have a +6 Dice modifier for Nonconductivity... SnS is definitely not the BEST ammunition out there...

I just cannot jump on board with the thought that SnS is broken...

Keep the Faith

By RAW, it's the best ammo for light handguns – and that means beating Tasers hands down on RoF, range and capacity, while being more concealable. Do the math.

And no, Power Creep by having everyone running around with a 1200¥ option on their 600¥ armored vest isn't a solution. In fact, even in that case it would still be better than Flechette, but cheaper…

I was joking man.

Also, baseball bats (and other clubs) do Physical damage. And if thta troll really wants to it can try to attack the spirit with force of will, in which case P or S weapon doesn't matter.

Without power creep of non-conductive armor for everyone, everyone who is thinking about practicality should load up with SnS and have a spare clip of AV for vehicles. It ups the damage and makes heavy armor irrelevant. Does everyone I know use it, nope. But they reason they don't is because everyone I know see's it as to good, and we had not come up with a house rule for it yet. It's uses aren't the same as a taser, because this has better range, and autofire possibilities it isn't your non lethal option its just the fastest way to bring down everything but vehicles. It is +1DV-+2DV and 1/2 armor power for every weapon you will normally carry. Making it have the damage or better of Ex-Ex ammo and better AP than Ex-Ex. Yeah its worse in a sniper rifle, but how often are snpier rifles, and other really big guns used?

So... is that all you ever use? SnS? Because that is not how I see it at the tables that I play at... It is funny, because your statement sounds like you trruly believe that, and I can tell you, for a fact, that it is not true, as I can point to at least 7 players that will disagree with you...

And again, I do not see any power creep here (are you really telling me that one of your Shadowrunners will actually scrimp 1200 Nuyen that could actually save their life? Really? Hmh)... if you are in the industry, you will probably run with some Nonconductivity for your armor, it just makes sense. Security teams have a escalation protocols (at least those who actually use such protocols), and that means Tazers or SnS rounds... I also tend to have a bit of Thermal Dampening and Chemical Protection as well, when I can afford it...

Your reasoning that it is the best for Light Pistols is debateable... it is an option, of course, but APDS is still generally better (my opinion) in most situations, and it even costs less...

Keep the Faith

The following is an opinion, and is born out by experience at the gaming table... take that for what it is...

I'd say that SnS is worse in an Assault Weapon, Worse in Shotguns, Worse in Sport Rifles, Worse in Sniper Rifles, worse in Any type of Machine Gun, Passable in SMG's and Heavy Pistols (that +1dv you speak of), and useable in Hold outs and Light Pistols (the +2 DV)... For a live capture they are the way to go (will get you there the fastest, except for the Narcojet Capsule Round That is)... But for all around general purpose use, I just cannot agree with you... their best niche is in handling High Force Spirits, other than that, they are just okay... However, You should keep a Clip or two of SnS handy for those emergency situations, because they always tend to crop up...

Keep the Faith

It has to do with elemental weaknesses. Specifically, most of the time I see it mentioned is in tandem with a discussion about ItNW. Elemental attacks did full damage to creatures with Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Not to mention people want more weapons against spirits. I really don't see how a material bullet can hit a astral being anyway unless manifested...

Oh well...

In the discussion of spirits vs. firearms the spirit is manifested.

Good point..

Actually, I meant materialized. A manifested spirit is not on the physical plane really.

A materialized spirit is on the physical plane

Since a manifested spirit is really not physical, the SnS round has nothing to impact on and deliver charge. Since it cannot discharge the electricity, there is no elemental effect.

Now if a spirit materializes into the physical realm then it gains Immunity to Normal Weapons and that is another can of worms...

Elemental effects do have full effect on creatures with ItNW, if you can get past the Hardening...

We just made Stick n Shock only available for shotguns. Encouraged people to USE shotguns, among other things, and it's not had a single complaint.

On the other hand, wouldn't that mean that all shotguns are just BF super-tasers now?

First off, shotguns are a lot less concealable – and putting S&S into them will lose you a point of DV.

And now… hate to break it to you:
By RAW, any firearm is a super-taser already.

No, as we have the "Shotgun only" rule.

S&S is, however, the standard issue ammuniton of all the people I met not using a houserule (or the Stormwind Fallacy, to the point where it becomes a a house ban – because if you still do you are "obviously a minmaxing powergaming munchkin").

No, it's not, on light handguns.

Do. The. Math.

And is illegal, whereas S&S is just restricted.

Yes, materialized. I mess those terms up all the time.



Oh! Oh! My group hasn't house ruled SnS and don't use it very often, if at all. Though TBF my character doesn't have any ranged weapons,* another character is a sniper (alternate weapon shotgun), a third is a pixie mage, and a fourth is a spirit summoner. The fifth is a dual wielding cybermonkey who has trouble figuring out how big his dice pool is (never played ShadowRun before and has a character that stacks modifiers akin to the pornomancer).

*Actually I do. But it hasn't come up until last game. And even then I don't have the skill (go 8 agility go!). But it can't take SnS ammo anyway.

Rotbart, that's what I meant: instead of all guns being super-tasers, now it's just shotguns. Obviously, the upgrade is *relatively* stronger for light pistols, but a burst of S&S is strong whatever gun it's from.

Odd... We don't houserule (or BAN) the Use of SnS, and yet, no one uses it as a standard issue... as I said previously, I am the only one carrying SnS... 2 other characters actually carry Tazers...

And your point that Light Pistols are better with SnS is debateable... I say it is not... You still suffer under teh same restrictions as any other ammunition... the PISTOL is a restricted Item, so it is immaterial what ammunition is in the gun, If you do not have a license (most shadowrunners probably do, but it is still something that could fail you in a pinch) you will still be hauled into the Precinct for carrying a restricted weapon... whereas, a Tazer is completely legal, so any time that you are going to use a Light Pistol with SnS, a Tazer is generally a better choice... any other situation and the Other types of ammunition are just as good or better depending upon the circumstances...

And if you really want to get technical, I have found that the best ammunition for a Light Pistol is a Capsule Round with a load of Narcojet/DMSO...

Keep the Faith

DMSO/Slab > Narcojet.

K10 > Narcojet

There's going to be a big difference at any precint between yet another 9mm , and one with armor piercing rounds. For one, more charges will be filed.

I do agree with Doc though. You get more damage, and it's stun, so it's' resisted with Willpower. Then there's also the detail of modifiers from wounds. If one guy hits you with S&S doing stun, and another guy is hitting you with a heavier weapon, doing physical, even light wounds stack up quickly.

On the details of wound mods:

5 stun + 4 physical = -2 to all actions.

9 stun (if it doesn't knock you out) is a -3.

Modifiers faster. That's my only point.

Not a big fan of the K-10 angle though, I have a problem with augmenting a character just to put them down at a later time, especially if that character may have the opportunity to rip my head of and stuff it down my neck...

But yeah... DMSO and Drug/Toxin of Choice is so much better a choice than SnS is... At least in my opinion

Keep the Faith

Not if one guy is hitting physical and one guy is hitting stun. It adds up slower that way.



'twas a joke.

Must have missed the Punch Line...
But no worries, I know people who have actually contemplated such things... I just shake my head and move along...

Keep the Faith

That's the punchline.

Gotcha...

Keep the Faith

That level of math is not debatable.

Any other ammunition you even could try to compare S&S to, you simply can't get a licence for.

Only if you want your enemy collapsing after he killed you.

Obviously, you are using SnS exclusively in your games, otherwise I cannot fathom your total dedication to this ammo type.
In many many istances, my character use a light pistol, and he routinely uses other ammunition (actually almost exclusively) other than SnS... the character has yet to be disappointed... Does SnS have utility? Yes, I have already stated so, but it is not the ubiquitous utility that you so vehemently cling to...

Not once has my "Enemy" killed me prior to the drug taking hold... you will need a better argument than that if you are going to proveyour point. Anything else is just an Opinion... Mine Included, though I am not claiming that my ammunition choices are the Magic Bullet of Win, like you have done with SnS.

And my point about the License, is that as a Shadowrunner, it does not matter what ammunition you use, you will still be running the risk of your papers failing and you being taken in... but here is the catch... Capsule rounds are no more restricted than SnS is (as in Legal for the Capsuel itself, and Restricted for the Compound if it is Narcojet), so availability is moot for that comparison... and the Capusle round has the unique point that you cannot tell what the capsule holds upon a glance... cannot say the same about the SnS round...

Keep the Faith

Obviously, you are wrong. Please read the threat for repeat statements about that issue.

Nice, but utterly irrelevant to the math: Please read the thread as for why that is.

Obviously, you are wrong again. Please read the thread as for why that is.

Nice, but utterly irrelevant as well: Please read the meaning of "Immediate" for Toxins in Shadowrun.

My statements are relevant in that they are an opinion...

But here you go, lets try something out, shall we...

Character with 8/8 Armor (Armor has Nonconductivity 3 and Chemical Seal 3, not too outrageous) is hit by a Light Pistol with a single net success... Character has Body 4...

Now...
SnS: Base Damage is 7s(e) against 4 Armor (that 1/2 for the elemental Effect) + 3 for Nonconductivity + Body to resist
Actual Damage with bought Hits (2): 5s
Actual Damage with Average Hits (3): 4s
Actual Damage with Rolled Hits (3): 4s
APDS: Base Damage 5p against Armor 4 (-4 AP from the round) + Body
Actaul Damage with bought hits (2): 3p
Actual Damage with Average Hits (2): 3p
Actual Damage with Rolled Hits (2): 3p

Note: Rolled Dice may vary from 0 hits to Dice Pool in Hits, as it is variable... not taken into account here...

Now, as you can see, the damge is slightly higher for the SnS... I never said it would be otherwise, but the damage is healed in an hour or two (Barring First Aid or Magic)... but for the APDS, the damage taken was actually physical damage... not healable in hours but a day minimum (Barring Magic or First Aid)... both suffer the same dice pool penalty, and yet all things being equal, the man wounded physically is far more hurt than the man who only had a bruise...

The math is pretty cut and dried to me... SnS is not as effective as the APDS was... now, if my intent is to bring someone in for questioning, I still would not use SnS, I would use the standby of Capsule Round/Narcojet... much more devastating on the stun category (and often flows to the Physical if your shot placement causes significant damage)... so again, the SnS is not the round to go for...

However, if you are fighting a Force 6 Spirit, and all you have is a light pistol, then I expect you will be using that SnS round, as all you need to bypass the ITNW is a single success and the spirit will be taking actual damage...

In that analysis... SnS is okay for a few things, but is vastly outclassed by other weapons with other ammunition...

How is that for the Math?

Keep the Faith

The thread is about a set of houserules and opinions. Period.
Somewhere on page 2 you started to argue that S&S is the ultimate ammo type and therefore needs changing. A lot of posters disagreed with you. You only use math for your argument. Most other posters use emotion. While that would normally give you the upper hand, we are talking about subjective perceptions here and since enjoyment and therefore emotion is the single most significant aspect of any PnP RPG, their arguments hold water against your mathematical ones.
Bottom line: the game does not become imbalanced if there is a clearly superior ammo type, since not all players will automatically use it, for various different reasons (style, availability, realism, personal preference, armor defeating properties, to name a few).

EDIT: n/m. Me stoooopid.

WHA?



I'm pretty sure stun damage is resisted with body.

And the victim is either incapacitated or disoriented.
So this is wrong:

The victim suffers an additional -2 for receiving electrical damage in the Case of S&S.

If the damage from S&S is higher, the math just told you it's more effective than APDS.



Irrelevant: The victim is out of combat faster with S&S than with APDS – cut his throat if you want him dead, after you won.

As you are obviously unwilling to read the rules, be informed the "Immediate" means that the damage of Narcojet applies at the end of the Combat Turn, instead at the end of the attack sequence in the case of S&S. Which will allow for unrestricted actions of the victim until then.
So Capsule Round/Narcojet is not a combat ammunition, but a niche one – contrary to S&S.

Toxins are not affected by net hits, either.

What you talking about is not math, but plain make-belief whish-it-where – as your own example proved you wrong on that part.

So…

Only if one considers your opinion relevant. Which I don't.