Now if you could provide any in-game reference whatsoever support that claim, you wouldn't sound completely delusional.

Of course, you can't, so you chose to make up arbitrary reasons, denouncing any other ones… while calling people names.

I particularly like when you bend backwards on that little point:


About a ruthless drug cartel emissary & leader, a face & johnson from the streets and a Stand Over Man.

In most of those situations, yes, the convulsions caused by SnS rounds would increase the danger of a Dead Man's Trigger type of effect and would be examples of when gel rounds are more effective (well, except for the car example). However, in those situations it would also be dangerous to attempt shooting the target with any normal type of ammunition for the same reasons. I'm not arguing that SnS would be most effective in niche situations such as a hostage situation, but it would still be more effective than regular ammunition (target goes down more quickly and at least convulsions give him a decent chance of missing his shot, although you really shouldn't be firing on the guy in that situation at all unless you've pulled out your clip of gel rounds you keep for just such occasions). You may have a point about the target being in a car, technically by being behind a glass barrier he should just get more armor but with SnS rounds that just doesn't make any sense. Under what circumstances would a police officer want to shoot the driver of a car and about how often does it happen?

Also, I believe my point is becoming muddled. I believe that SnS rounds are overpowered and that there should be some kind of fix made for them. Any example or argument I make supporting them comes from my desire to convince people of their brokeness and encourage them to house rule SnS in their games.

But the S&S causes convulsions...


Oh I agree that S&S is too good. I agree that it could use some nerfing. What I was objecting to was the notion that it's the be all end all go-to ammunition type for every professional in SR and that it would be stupid that NPCs and players alike don't use it.

Contrary to popular belief, such weapons tense up all muscles simultaneously, reducing the amount of actual movement possible compared to any other outside influence.

That would be quite the interesting feat, to convulse them ALL at the same time...
Yes, the extend of the convulsions is limited, but in each of those situations, even a minimal convulsion could prove disastrous. Especially the so often cited "professionals" that you so cherish woould not use S&S in any of these situations.

No, that's what electricity does, as it's not limited to normal way the body works. It's what makes it so dangerous.

Any kind of attack could cause that "minimal convulsion" – in fact, it's more likely as the target could have voluntary control of his muscles, as opposed when electrocuted.
And detonators usually activate on release.

They certainly would not use gel like you claim you would, as that would leave the target the biggest chance of flinching:

In fact, they tend to be very wary taking such a shot at all.

Well no, it's not, it's just better than most of the other ammunitions under ideal conditions, and as such without being house-ruled a character who wants to be most effective should have SnS rounds loaded into their gun rather than ordinary slugs, because they'll incapacitate a target more quickly with SnS ammunition than they will with any other kind. Really everyone in shadowrun should be carrying at least a clip of SnS on them if only for the spirit factor (all right, maybe not everybody who owns a gun expects to encounter spirits but the players should all be prepared) but when an ammunition built for a rather specific purpose is more effective than other types of ammunition at their intended purpose then something should really be done to power down that amunition so that it isn't used in situations for which it wasn't intended.

You obviously haven't watched this yet.

I have. I also happen to know how electricity affects the body and that it is physically impossible to affect the whole body at once.

And the inability of anything surpassing light speed would be the final defense to fall back to, sure.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that hitting someone with gel ammo (or any other ammo, for that matter) is much more likely to have him flinch or even act than hitting him with S&S.

I am certain you can provide plenty of evidence for that claim. Like you can with any and all your other arguments.

Sure, RAW even:

So while filling/surpassing your condition monitor would normally allow you to use a Dead Man's Trigger action, the secondary effect from electric damage can prevent you from even that. And that doesn't even include the possibility that the condition monitor isn't filled by an attack, thus allowing the target to act normally for non-electric ammo.

On the other hand, you could not provide any evidence as to your claims.

For non of those.

Incapactitation sets in as a secondary effect, after the hit, so no, you missed again. How's that "swing-and-miss" working out for you?

By RAW it's after the attack is successful (Step 3) – that's prior to any damage resistance (Step 5) by RAW.

And thus, prior to any damage gel ammo possibly could have done to knock out somebody – as well as prior to being allowed to use Dead Mans Trigger… as that happens after applying damage (Step 6). Please read p. 149, thank you.
So if you want to take that critical shot and make sure the target has the least chance of acting… you take S&S by RAW.

So… enlighten us please with the profound evidence supporting your point that you rather should use gel ammo.

Point taken. So you argue that because the literal wording of the rules, the ammunition can magically bypass physics alltogether. No wonder you want it changed.

I figure you should use gel rounds because they'll knock the target back, which is good if he's got a hostage or he's pointing a gun at you. When I mentioned Dead Man's Trigger I wasn't talking about the action (which I in fact did not know about) but the fact that having all of your muscles contract at once is probably going to squeeze your trigger finger and get someone shot without the target actually taking an action. That's GM fiat of course but it does make sense and we're not exactly debating the specifics of RAW here. Anyway, none of that is really touching the main argument about the brokeness of SnS. Is there anyone here who thinks that SnS doesn't need changing?

I'm still not sure I see the issue. Given the easy access to various electricity weapons in the Shadowrun universe, I'd imagine non-conductivity would be fairly common among corporate and other security goons given that it's relatively cheap. Rating 3 will just make your average Impact 6 armor act with a rating of 6 - making Armor Piercing or the like superior for penetrating. Sure, SnS gets better (in a way) the higher the impact armor is, but even then a 6r non-conductivity upgrade would in many case render SnS very much sub-par.

EDIT: Granted, I only started playing Shadowrun recently, so I might very well be talking out of my posterior here.

Except that even without including the AP -half SnS still increases the damage of most pistols, causes incapacitation for several seconds unless the target succeeds at a Willpower + Body + half Impact (3) test, causes a -2 to all actions penalty no matter what, is completely non-lethal and so can be fired near civilians without having to woory about collateral damage, is resisted with Impact which is almost always lower than Ballistic, and deals damage to the opponent's stun track, which is almost always lower than their physical track. It's almost always better to have more damage than AP in a weapon unless you're dealing with extreme targets.

Edit: So yes, it's almost always better to have SnS rounds

But you see how you contradict yourself? On the one hand you say everybody is free to choose an ammo he wants to use, but on the other you try to forbid the use of SnS unless certain requirements are met, which make the use of SnS valid in your opinion...

Yes, you have not said that SnS is fine, but you say that the fallout of these bad stats are to be ignored because it does not exist, which is clearly wrong.


What you mean is: SnS is should be a specialty ammo that should only be used for specific reasons, just like tasers.
Just saying "SnS is only used rarly in special circumstance" does not make it come true... and obviously contradicts you point 3.#


Oh yes it does, because everybody is free to choose his Ammo, see Point 3. So choosing SnS because it is the best ammo avaible is a valid point.


The can choose whatever ammo they see fit, even SnS. And if the want to play their Character effectively, which is a major part of being a Shadowrunner, you use every edge you can get, they will use SnS.


I never said everybody should use SnS, but in a realistic world defined by the ruleset, everybody will use SnS, because it makes sense. Especially police and security forces.

What you and other, including me, do is houseruling with the gentlemen's agreement: "I do not use SnS, because it would be lame if everybody uses it." I do so as an GM as well as player. As long as everybody at the table behaves that way, all is going to be fine. It is like an unspoken houserule that everybody agrees to. But it is a houserule anyway.


I am a official GM for SR on conventions, so I have to use the official rules. And I had people at my table, who used SnS all the time. Their Chars had only SnS ammo and some spar clips with AF, for vehicles. And as you said it is their right to use any ammo they want. I cannot houserule in an official round at a con, neither can a stand up, call my players powergamers and munchkins and throw them out (on the one hand because they are not, on the other because my job is it to make them love SR and buy stuff).

The ruleset in BBB was corrected like 5-6 times, at least in 2 times there where changes in the ammo sections, but never was SnS changed. So I have to think, that the SnS rules are intended as what they was written...