I don't think I was responding to Dr. Funkenstein, actually.

Your point still stands.

My point is that 'regular ammo' IS the default. I think you argued against this. Not that it matters, because there's no argument: the book clearly shows it.

The wonders of homonyms.

This is my point as well.

Nah, I argued for that point:

Well… whatever you say, I guess. Heh.

I think you're the one confusing the english language. Vice versa means to switch the two things being compared so that the end result has the same meaning as the former. So what the Stormwind fallacy is actually trying to say is that one can optimize a character while still being able to roleplay and you can roleplay while still being able to optimize a character. Honestly though, role-playing or roll-playing, I think either is fun so long as everybody's having fun.

No.

The Stormwind Fallacy is twofold this way:
Optimization -> !Roleplay
!Optimization -> Roleplay

Look it up.

...You're both right, you know. So stop being grammar nazis.

GODWIN'S LAW.

No, it means exactly what it means. Your inability to process it ("derr, it r not speshul jus cuz it haz speshul adhesive, U R SO DUM!!!!!") is a limitation on your end.


Yes, I made up the term "specialty ammo."


Uh huh. So you're telling me "vice versa" doesn't mean "the order reversed." Right. Okay. Whatever you say, buddy.

And it doesn't mean that it cannot be the usually loaded ammo, indeed.

In fact, RL police forces switched from "regular ammo" to "speciality ammo" that's non-fragmenting deforming ammo so it doesn't over-penetrate… as the usually loaded ammo.

Thanks for clearing that up in context to the "intent of the game".

…to look up the meaning in context, indeed.

As I said, there are three types of people playing SR, those who use SnS almost always, those who suffer from the Stormwind Fallacy, and those in campaigns were SnS has been houseruled. You're a Stormwind Fallacy kind of guy.

What I don't get is why you're arguing against people who say the rules for SnS should be changed.

1) I really can't get over the amazing ignorance you people have. This is not the Stormwind Fallacy, and that's not going to change just by you repeating it ad infinitum.

2) YOU are the people invoking the Stormwind Fallacy by claiming that people who either a) don't house rule SnS or b) don't use it in every single weapon they have can't possibly be a powergamer / min-maxer / munchkin / "optimizer," or whatever other term you want to use.

3) Hey look, more ignorance. I'm not arguing that Stick-n-Shock is fine as is. Never once have I said anything even remotely close to that.

1-2) Look, if you don't want to call it the Stormwind Fallacy, fine. Maybe not having all pros use SnS ammo is better described as very unrealistic roleplaying.

3) Then why are you taking a stance opposing those who want it changed?

1-2)

3) I'm not. I'm opposing the people who are saying that the ammo itself regardless of whatever damned stats it has; standard or houseruled should be a standard load in all weapons. THAT IS PURE POWERGAMING. Choosing a piece of gear purely for its stats, regardless of how ridiculous it is, IS POWERGAMING with a complete and utter disregard for roleplaying. Period. End of discussion. If you don't understand that, which you clearly don't, nothing more needs be said.

If it wasn't Stick-n-Shock ammo that had those stats, but Blank Rounds that did, you same people would be arguing that everyone should be firing blanks purely because of its stats, no matter how absurd that is. It doesn't matter if you, the person you're arguing with, or God himself was also saying that those stats should be fixed. That's completely and totally unrelated to the ridiculous "derr, everyone should be using it no matter what!!!" argument.

Does being a powergamer mean you can't roleplay? NO, and that's what the God damned Stormwind Fallacy is about. Does choosing other types of ammo because you prefer them mean you're not a powergamer? NO, but that's the stance people like you are taking, and that is the God damned Stormwind Fallacy. Does the Stormwind Fallacy apply to people who DO powergame WITHOUT any regard for roleplaying? NO, and that covers people like you at Rotbart. No matter how blind or ignorant you are to that fact.

And yes, bullshit like this does irk me to no end, especially when people keep evoking things that they clearly don't understand (ie, the Stormwind Fallacy). Hence the inflamed emphases.

You have a funny definition of powergaming. So if I choose a gear by its stats I am a powergamer?

So, where in the book stands that regular is the ammunition the majority uses??!!

In the entire book is not one description on how often the different ammo types are used. All text in the ammunition sections only describing how the ammunition works! So no Fluff info about how often SnS or any other ammo is used. Regular Ammo could by only used for target pratice, because there its perfect. Low cost is the only important stat.

So, with no Fluff defining how often the different Ammo types are used, you have to stick to the rules and their effect...

cya
Tycho

Why, let's have a look at all the sample characters and NPCs, shall we!

As far as the archetypes go, the Bounty Hunter, Combat Mage, Covert Ops Specialist, Face, Hacker, Occult Investigator, Radical Eco-Shaman, Sprawl Ganger, Technomancer, and Weapon Specialist all use either Regular ammo or Flechette ammo in a shotgun or similar weapon. The only archetypes that don't use either ammo are the Drone Rigger (Explosive), Enforcer (Explosive), Gunslinger Adept (Explosive), Smuggler (Explosive), Street Samurai (Explosive), and the Street Shaman (only has a knife). And you know what? I don't see Stick-n-Shock ammo mentioned even once. Huh, how curious!

Let's have a look at a few random adventure modules now. First, SRM03-00 Everyone's Your Friend. Golly, I don't see it mentioned once. How about Ghost Cartels? Oh hey, look, I found someone (finally)! Dae, Henry Uribe, Ju Kon and the Docwagon HTR and FBI Emergency Response Teams use it as specialty ammo. Oops, I'm sorry, it's not specialty ammo because, uhm, specialty ammo has some other apparent meaning in Imagination Land. Anyway, that's one book that actually mentions it, but we'll ignore the fact that even there that's only a tiny fraction of all the NPCs listed! Let's keep going anyway. How about, hmm, Dusk or Midnight? Hmmmm... well look at that, not a single mention of it in either of those books, either. Golly gee willikers.

It must all be a misprint. Because, clearly, everyone is and should be using Stick-n-Shock ammo. It's the standard load in the game, by gosh!

Bob, the watchman, does not use SnS because of the stats. He uses it because he saw this fancy commercial in the 'Trix. So, he went to Ares WeaponWorld, bought a couple of SnS rounds. The First time he used them he was thinking: "WOOT!!! I just hit this guy once and he was on the ground shacking, not able to move or defend himself, Awsome!! This is some crazy round, not like the usual stuff! This one guy way back, I had to shoot him like 4 times until he gave up, not to bring up trolls and all the shit... This stuff is like instant Dropdown, who knew!" and then he uses only SnS and tells all his other watchman friends.

Time passes, word got around, similar experience for everybody. There were strikes in the policeforce and now all the policemen use SnS because its so awesome! So much man-stopping power, just the perfect ammo for every security force!

End of story, no "powergaming", just roleplaying here...

cya
Tycho

You are right that not many of the published characters use SnS but that does not mean taking it wouldn't be a sound choice IC with the stat SnS now has. Should they be changed? Maybe, but as it is, few characters who would like to be effective would shun this type of ammunition. As such SnS should be found in most weapons accompanied by a couple of magazines of APDS or ExEplosive ammo depending on Availability.

Probably the developers have not thought about the logical consequences of giving SnS those stats. It is just like with the ghoul infection rules in SR or Wraiths and their proliferation in that other game (3.5 dunno about 4). There shouldn't be any more (meta)humans left.

[Edit]Exactly my point in your ninjaed story, Tycho.[/Edit]

Funny, Ghost Cartels has NPC that are almost certainly not pacifists packed with S&S… though some use really weird capsule rounds (acid, too), as well.
And, guess what… all DocWagon security goons have S&S only… as do the bodyguards for their light pistols. What a surprise. The other ammo in heavy use would be APDS… and regular ammo… well isn't all that a regular occurrence.

Yeah, looking at the sample characters, it's totally obvious that everyone would use AR gloves. Mimes are funny, after all.

<shrugs> If you people don't want your questions answered, don't ask them. "Derr, o man u found it um well dey dum 4 using it LOLOLOL so watch me mak up storee bout how dey DO us it OMG see!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

Nah, your "answers" just were found lacking.

First of all, who said any thing about pacificists? Let's look at the ones who do use it. There's a senator who probably wouldn't want to have a murder rap on his hands, a stripper with a similar reason, and a chaos mage who doesn't have any kind of spell to just incapacitate people. Out of dozens upon dozens of characters. None of which are cops, hitmen, murders, security guards, or any other kind of serious criminal. And nevermind that most of them are using regular ammo, too. But let's continue to plug our ears and hum loudly, or continue to write bullshit stories about how everyone really is using it, even though they're not.


Gee, I wonder why.

Lacking. Truely lacking.

Ex-Senator …described as being ruthless and viewing everyone as expandable…

…and just happens to be the messenger (and one of the leaders) of a drug cartel. Totally non-serious.

…who just happens to be more of a street-bred face and Johnson – comparable to any shadowrunner.

Well, the FBI and Aztech hitmen do use APDS indeed.

Already forgot? The DocWagon security guards use S&S as primary ammo, as do all bodyguards for their sidearms.

You keep doing that.

But thanks for establishing anyway that anyone, including runners, who "wouldn't want to have a murder rap on his hands" should use S&S.

Everyone knows the sample characters are crappily designed and suffer from a bad case of Stormwind

I tried to stay out of it, but I have an extremely low threshold for hypocrisy.
A lot of posters in this thread keep citing fallacies (stormwind for one) and twist their meaning, they present them themselves in a fallacious way and they conclude the whole round with a stormwind fallacy themselves.

If you(plural) want to argue that the S&S rules need a change, have at it chummers! I don't mind them personally, but I can see the point. But you are dishing out logical fallacies like there was a sale.

Let's check the logical argument here for a sec (read: I don't give a flying rat's ass about how powerful S&S is):

1.) Just because some individuals use a particular type of ammunititon, when it is beneficial, does not constitute the fact that everyone or even a majority use said ammunition under the same circumstances.
2.) Just because the sample characters are poorly designed in some cases does not constitute an argument that they do not represent your average archetype within the game's society.
3.) Just because the game stats of a particular ammo type make the into the superior ammunition to chose, does not constitute whether everyone or even the majority of people in the game world uses them.
4.) Arguing that everyone should use S&S because it has the best stats IS a Stormwind fallacy.

That all said, the presented list of ammunition types within an RPG does not need to be perfectly balanced nor the options equal. Variety is more important than balance, as variety is what helps to fill out the game's universe for the participating players. I'll leave you to your squabble now. Have fun.

at 1: Common Sense says otherwise. The superiority of SnS is measurable ingame and that very easily. So intelligent people would try to use SnS most of the time.

at 2: seconded

at 3: see 1.

at 4: why? it is logic by fluff (see 1) and crunch to use SnS...

I am with you, that the balance has not to be perfectly balanced, but SnS is just not balanced at all. If one ammo is superior to all the others in nearly all situations, it is really bad.

cya
Tycho

No. Again, the stormwind fallacy is only fulfilled for statements that consist of either or:
Optimization -> !Roleplay
!Optimization -> Roleplay


Arguing "everyone should use S&S because it has the best stats" as "the superiority of SnS is measurable ingame" would be:
Optimization -> Roleplay

Thus not fullfilling the Stormwind fallacy.


Contrary, telling people that not just using "S&S because it has the best stats" would constitute "respecting the nature and intent of the game" is:
!Optimization -> Roleplay

Thus fulfilling the Stormwind Fallacy by declaring better roleplay for non-optimization.


The moment one does accept the premise that "the sample characters are poorly designed" does in fact mean that they are defined as non-representative – otherwise, they wouldn't be "poorly designed".

I'm not sure I see the problem with S&S. If it is indeed as common as people claim it to be, the logical next step would be for every guard in town to run around with a non-conductivity upgrade in their armor, which means S&S is mainly applicable against common street thugs and civil... rabble rousers. EVOlution and all that jazz.

EDIT: Or at least make armor piercing and the like superior for bringing down armored opponents.

The way we read the rule is that 6S (e) from SnS replaces weapon damage, so net hits does not do anything to damage as its replaced. What the net hits do with SnS is to extend the duration if the shock test is failed.

The burst fire of SnS doing 3x6S seems completely illogical as from a RAW perspective.

Our group seems to think gel rounds are sort of unbalanced.

3x6? Shouldn't that be 6+9 for a full burst?

"Poorly designed" is a term referencing game mechanics. "Average Representation" is a term referencing sociometrics. A vital part of any RPG (even significantly more important than rules) is the setting. Within said setting, we are working with virtual demographics. Average representation within said demographics is what constitutes "normal" for the game setting. A sample character can be "poorly designed" (a game mechanics perspective) and yet still resresent the average archeztype withing the virtual environment (a sociometric perspective).

If you want to declare this a Stormwind fallacy, then you are obviously also a proponent of removing extrateritoriality from giant Corporations, as no sane Government would allow that.

What i meant was that you do not calculate damage per individual bullet, the ammunition does not matter in this respect even if it replaces weapon damage.

S&S are different. Like I said 200 posts ago, that's a house-rule opportunity. Hehe.

So... by your definitions above... Anyone who does not use SnS is not intelligent... is in fact stupid?

That is an extremely arrogant position to take... Are you sure that you want to make that stand?

Keep the Faith

No, it is Optimization -> !Roleplay. The reason to always use SnS is because of its rule-stats. There's no "roleplay" element provided. It is in fact "optimization for optimiation's sake."

I can provide good, valide, roleplaying reasons why I would both use and not use SnS as my ammo of choice, and none of them come down to the game stats for it (because that is what roleplaying is).

Game rules define the world in parts. Game stats define how good a given piece of gear is. Following them is roleplaying - "My professional soldier is using the ammo that has been proven to be the most effective in this, this and that situation" is good roleplaying.

Yes, correct. That is roleplaying. Saying "this ammo is best in all situations because of the -half impact armor and every character should always be using it" is not roleplaying.

Lets just say this...

There are thousands of different guns in the world, and dozens, if not hundreds, of variant ammunition types worldwide... what you say is optimal, I may say is sub-par... This argument really comes down to personal choice and preference... People choose the style and look of their weapons based upon their own independant views of what looks nice, works well, and is reliable... not every one agrees on these criteria... The same can be said of ammunition. My perfect ammo may not work for you... it is a personal choice, and is generally not based upon ballistics tables or manufacturers claims, or whatever.

That is how the world of Shadowrun works as well... is there a perfect weapon system... no, not for everyone... some will choose this gun over that gun for whatever reason... and their ammunition choices are going to be the same... If that was not the case, you would only see a Single Light Pistol, Machine Pistol, Heavy Pistol, SMG, Assault Rifle, Hunting Rifle, Shotgun, Sniper Rifle, Light/Medium/Heavy Machine Gun in each of the various weapon categories, and there would only be a single ammunition type... As obviously this is not the case, then everyone should just take a step back and realize that the optimal choice of weapon and ammunition is going to be a very personal choice...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Stats define what is a verified fact. The stats may be -4 AP and -2 AP, but the character would say "This ammo has twice the armor penetration than this ammo". Same as the topspeed in cars is such a game universe fact. If you have a car with topspeed 400, and one with 300, then the first car is faster. No one would claim that the second car is actually as fast.

Wrong. Please read again.

So, what exactly is your argument then? That S&S should be changed, because it so good that everyone should use it, but doesn't?

That would be the conclusion, not the argument – emphasis mine.

Rules set the physical laws of a game world. Through them, the characters, from their point of view, experience what works well and what doesn't.
Role-playing a sane character means that the character will base their future decisions on that that experience. That's called learning.

If there is something that works particularly well, characters will learn to use it to their advantage, especially if it's relevant to their chosen profession.

As already established with material reference, the exact combination considered problematic (light pistols with S&S) is used by professional characters.

But they don't. What you think they would do is quite frankly irrelevant. You are arguing from a mere mechanics perspective and you ignore the ultitude of factor that go into the choices of the denizens of the game world while pondering over their options. Things like media influence, personal preferences, application outside of the mere physical use, like intimidatng people...
There are many reason why a denizen of the sixth world would not use S&S, among them, the two most important ones would be price and application.

Your assumption that a "professional" would only use S&S is wrong. A Professional is a person earnign his money with his trade. The (by far) largest denomnnation of ammunition using "professionals" would be military and security personel (including cops). Since they don't pay for their ammo themselves, they won't use S&S unless specially issued.

Your conclusion that they "would" use S&S doesn't survive its encounter with basic logical assumptions.


Only half-true. The PLAYERS perceive the physical laws of the game world through the rules, not the characters. That's a major distinction, as the players will always have more knowledge than their characters and can therefore make choices based on a different set of information.
The character may very well not be aware of the full capabilities of S&S or might be influenced by the media to an extend where he simply underestimates the value of S&S. Or maybe he prefers the more messy approach of ExExplosive ammo over the suble disable. There are still way too many subjective views influencing the choice of a character.


True. But not all characters have the same options. Your assumption that everyone would use S&S is contradicted by the fact that a lot of PLAYERS don't, let alone NPC choices.


Sorry, but player choices don't matter. The objective standard is the game world itself and it's representation therein. Since hardly any NPC or sample character uses S&S it is a game fact that they are not your initial go-to choice, for whatever reason.

Uhm… hat to break it to you, but they do.

Given that Dunkelzahn put a price in his will for the creation of non-lethal weapons… no, I'm not.

Given 2¥ a shot for FMJ and 8¥ a shot for S&S, price would be an issue for people really on the low budget side… and application would speak only for FMJ if the intent is a massacre. Valid reasons, for certain kinds of people.

Not "only" – as primary ammo. As it is done by canon security guards and bodyguard NPC.

Given that RL police organizations had non-over-penetration ammo researched, developed, produced and ordered specifically for their primary use…

Of course, only if ignoring that said canon security guards and bodyguard NPC have been issued with S&S, as well as named canon NPC choosing them…

I don't disagree with the notion that misinformed or unprofessional characters will choose whatever floats their boat.

Your assumption that "a lot of PLAYERS" don't use S&S would be contradicted by my experience (until house-ruled).

It's canon NPC choice.

Sorry, but that is actually not the case...
If there is a single Professional character that does not use the ammo, then your argument falls flat... In this case, by default, there are at least one table's worth of Professional shadowrunners, with a large helping of in game reputation ,that DOES NOT use SnS by default... as such, your opinion fails...

As has been said by many many people inthis thread alone... SnS is not teh standard go to round for their characters, for a various number of reasons... It is kind of hard to argue that Everyone WOULD use this round, when it is obvious that EVERYONE does NOT use this ammo... at the very least, many normal people within the game world (those that are not shadowrunners) will never use the SnS rounds as they would still have to obtain a license for the firearm in question, and would not do so in favor of the completely legal (and license not required) tazers. The ratio of Shadowrunners to Normal people shows that the vast majority out there will NOT be using SnS...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

From a biased sample. You really want me to take that argument serious?

It is somewhat hard to actually acknowledge that argument seriously...

You cannot claim it to be Canon NPC Choice, if even a single NPC does not use it... and there are many examples of NPC's not so choosing...
It is, of course, still a choice, but in no way does that choice make it a universal Canon Choice...

Keep the Faith

You surely are going to explain how you consider Ghost Cartels, the only complete campaign book produced for SR4, a "biased sample".

Sure thing:
-It has a very limited number of NPC stats.
-Emergence is another complete Campaign book produced for SR4, so your initial premise falls flat on its face
-The SR core rulebook already features sample NPCs, none of which use S&S
-Even IF Ghost Cartels were the only Campaign book produced (which it sin't), it would STILL be a biased sample, as it would not provide a normal distribution of professional denizens of the sixth world.

Are you familiar with the term "hasty generalization"?

So, should we follow the argument: SnS is clearly the best ammo available, perfect for police and security forces, but they do not use it, because the do not use it??!!

Thats the ridiculous argument here...

All I and RvD say is that following ingame logic, police and security forces, along with a some of other individuals, would use SnS, because it is the best possible ammo, they can use under almost any circumstances. That is based on the stats but also an the ingame effectiveness everybody can witness ingame aka ingame world logic, defined by the rules.

cya
Tycho