It's not if you consider the factor that go into such a decision:
-budget
-psychological effects/de-escalation
-corporate agenda (See the development of the the Ruger Thunderbolt. You think that weapon was developed as a less lethal alternative?)

Also, by your logic you would also have to state that: "So, should we follow the argument: Extraterritoriality for Corporations is the single worst idea, we as a governemtn could come up with, but we give it to them anyway, because they asked for it??!"
Any RPG requires the suspensiuon of disbelief. SR has MAGIC for crying out loud! It has friggin' Orcs and Elves and Faries running around! The game world is the way it is and obviously a lot of corporations did run the cost/benefit analysis over S&S and decided against it. If you want to know, why, ask them.


No, they would not, because they don't. And because it would cost about 4 times as much. Corporations are not keen on spending more money than they have to. That would conflict with their primary interest: to make money!

EDIT: Specialized branches of various corporations or government agencies would probably use it, but those would be few and rare. There would have to be a direct need for non-lethal ammunition, where gel-rounds would not suffice.

What kind of Argument is that?

Either the background is ok then the rules are faulty or the rules are ok but then the background does not fit.

So if you say SnS is ok as it is ruled now you have to accept that the Background has to adapt to it.

When you consider SnS a less used ammunition by background, then it shouldnt be that good (value for mony) by the rules.

great argument! So it is like I said? You have no argument other than "because I say so..."



budget is considered: you incapitate a target with 1 Shot SnS oposide to many shots regular...
psychological efects/de-escalation: What is more de-escalating. Killing people with regular ammo or using SnS, the non-lethal alternative?
corporate agenda of a police force should be to use as much force as neccesary, but as less as possible, so no ExEx Bursts in the demo-people...

cya
Tycho

What is more de-escalating... Pulling out a Tazer (which cops use by the way) or pulling out a lethal weapon?
At the ranges that most personal combat occurs (7 Meters or less), a tazer is better than SnS because it does not raise the threat level like pulling your Pistol does...

Keep the Faith

On the contrary: It has quite a lot of stats, over a broad spectrum of NPC. Thus, it is more representative than anything else you can draw upon.

While emergence may be a campaign book of some kind, it is not complete at all, as it only consist of metaplot information, short stories and shadowtalk, leaving actual gameplay design up to the GM, as well as lacking any stats.

As it stands, Ghost cartels is the only complete campaign book – and by complete, I mean "ready to play".

You are talking about NPCs described as hackers wihout actual hacking skills, wrong levels of implant levels for descriptions, as well as multiple errors in equipment.
And of course, their number is significantly smaller than the one in Ghost Cartels.

That's a red hering – no such thing will ever exist, so one needs to derive from rules, setting description and NPC.

Are you familiar with the term "flexible generalization"?

Not a known logical fallacy that I (or wikipedia) knows of.

Find the flaw in the following sentence:

"The modern day US military would use the M995 as their primary ammunition."

After you found the flaw, you will understand my argument


I never said the rules for S&S are okay. Quite the contrary. I just find RvD's argumentation absurd.


Your cost/benefit calculation is wrong. It's not just about money.

Indeed. Because it's not a fallacy.

You don't work in a field even remotely related to statistics, do you? Given a population of roughly 7+ billion people in the sixth world, your few NPCs in Ghost Cartels, which are from a very narrow and biased sample group (A Drug campaign) amount to jack shit in their statistical value. Also, the BBB list a whole shit ton of NPCs, as does DotA:Dusk and neither of THEM use S&S. You quite frankly don't have a proper sample size to come to an informed conclusion.


I never claimed it did. It is a Campaign book, though. Your initial premise was wrong.


And how exactly does a campaign book supersede the core rulebook?


Your point is?


Yet, you claim Ghost Cartels does just that...


Are you for real? Your entire argumentation could stand a poster child for hasty generalization! That said: you are about as flexible as a rock!

But Hasty Generalization is, and your argument is one. Its only flexible in that you keep changing what you think your argument is (and in all cases its still hasty).

I'm more than aware that the usual sample sizes can even be smaller in the real world.

Thats a red hering as well, as we are talking about the group represented by the NPC from GC:
Shadow denizens and security personnel.

No, not compared to GC.

Lagos, a Feral City, is the perfect place to see widespread use of FMJ, indeed.

You quite frankly are wrong about that.

No, as Emergence is not a complete campaign book.

It does for the NPC provided, as the core book only provides very basic examples… that also happen to be even uglier hackjobs than the archetypes.

As stated.

No.

Ah… ad hominem.

Simple Question here Rotbart...

How can you honestly make the statement that the sample NPC's of the Ghost Cartels make up a defining sample of whether an ammunition choice is universal?

The Core Book refutes that, and you have testimonial from differing GM's and Players alike that refute what you are putting forth as fact... the fact is that SnS is a choice among a myriad number of choices... they are not the universal choice of the game world, nor even within the smaller category of Shadowrunners and Security Forces...

Your continual insistence in that proposition is very obviously flawed, and yet you still argue that you are correct and that everyone else is wrong... That does not fit your "Flexible Generalisation" that you are so vehemently defending... My interpretation of that term is that you are generalising flexibly; or in easier terminology, that everyone has an opinion and they are all valid...

Since you have been shown to be wrong (Not everyone uses SnS as their ammunition of choice; Cannonically and Testimonially), why do you still insist that it is the universal, only, choice of ammunition?

Just curious...

Keep the Faith

Ok ok ok, so what's the argument here? Are we arguing that SnS is the superior ammunition and as such should either be used by all people who can afford it or changed so that its lack of use makes sense? I know some people are arguing that SnS wouldn't be the primary ammunition of most people but I can't really see why... For cops, they may want to use tasers against people they know are low threat so they don't have to pull their piece every time they want to look threatening but for cops who do need to take out their pistols and use them (a growing population in a world of gang members who can throw fireballs and disgruntled troll postal workers who can take bullets to the chest and chuckle) it seems like SnS ammunition is the way to go. Most cops use SA pistols which are greatly improved by SnS rounds in terms of taking people down and the ability to cause someone to fall over in convulsions for several seconds from tens of meters away while you're chasing them seems pretty nice. Even assuming that everyone in the world has rating 6 non-conductivity built into their undergarments can't take away that last benefit. SnS may not be the rounds of choice for everybody due to its flavor, non-lethality, brokeness, or lack of effectiveness in shotguns and sniper rifles, but for anyone using a pistol (and that's most of the gun-users in shadowrun) SnS ammo is the best choice barring unusual circumstances (see: fighting animals that can turn into people). Other ammunitions find their niche in the right guns or the right circumstances but from a strict effectiveness point of view you simply can't beat SnS, and that's completely justifiable from a role-playing standpoint in that most people tend to prefer the ammo that will get them shot at less over the cheap stuff.

Argue preferences all you like, that doesn't change the fact that SnS ammunition is the best ammo out there for the 'runner facing down an unknown and hostile world.

My opinion is two-fold. 1) Stick-n-Shock should be changed so that it's in line with the other options. 2) Regardless of its stats -- no matter if they're broken or not -- Stick-n-Shock is not the standard load of most people; it is and should be a specialty ammo that you use in specific situations or is only used regularly by specific individuals. There's also a third opinion that no matter how broken or poorly designed a rule is, that's no excuse to use it regardless of common sense. Everyone doesn't ride around in "murdercycles" even though they're arguably the most effective weapon in the game in addition to being nigh impossible to damage. That's not roleplaying by any measure; that's pure, unadulterated powergaming.

Okay, let's have a look at GC, then. I will only count combatants (that excludes strippers, CEO and lowlife scum that drug women with Laés):

Using S&S: 8
Not using S&S: 36

Out of the 8 NPCs using S&S, 3 are DocWagon employes, and even there, the main combat template is using the AS7 Shotgun with gel rounds as their primary weapon, so even there S&S is not the primary go-to ammo of choice. The rest are mostly bodyguards (with one exception) and even those bodyguards use S&S only on their lightest Weapon (the fichetti 500), and use different ammunition (lethal choices) on their primary weapons.
So tell me, where exactly is this "every professional is using S&S in GC" you were babbling about? Especially since all the listed Military, (non-bodyguard) Security and Police templates are opting for choices OTHER than S&S...
And in case you'd like to claim I tweaked the numbers: I left out a stripper that used S&S. A stripper...
I think your argument just took a nose dive.


You didn't say GC was the only "complete" campaign book, you claimed it was the only one. Are you aware of the "No true Scottsman fallacy"?


Good thing even GC agrees with me and proves you wrong.


A personal attack (if you can even call it that, I was merely stating facts) is only considered an ad hominem fallacy, if it is used to refute an argument. It didn't. If you wanna throw around latin terms, make sure you understand them first.

Like security guards. And bodyguards. And shadow denizens "not wanting a murder rap". And cops – well, maybe only in proper neighborhoods. There's less need to accidentally emptying a whole clip into someone "looking suspicious".

Well yes, most people don't ride around in murdercycles because that's not really any fun. Most of my character concepts don't involve being a bike riding ganger with a tricked out death-mobile. Many of my character concepts do involve people who shoot guns, and many of them want to take down their opposition quickly without leaving a blood trail and as such choose SnS rounds because they do that. I agree that SnS really should be changed to make its lack of use by written NPCs make sense, as far as I can tell anyone who has ever used SnS as they are written in the book should go "OMFG This thing is amazing! What have I been doing all my life with this crappy lead stuff?" I don't really see that as a lack of common sense for anybody, if you had to choose between an advanced alien laser pistol and an ordinary 9mm to take down the tank coming towards you, which would you pick? More extreme of an example perhaps but my point is that most people would choose effectiveness over familiarity, and if there is for some reason a person who would choose the 9mm then they get blown away by the tank (metaphor for shadowrunning team), simple as that.

Ah… yeah, those pesky named NPC that are more like runners than any other NPC in the book. Curse them for using creative ammo & S&S.

…and going in with the intent for massacre.
Like I said – if you intent is just to kill everyone, you go for lethal ammo… especially since the police hit squa… err ERT has a harder time killing people after they are down.


Emphasis added.

The contrary would be the case, as it disproved the notion that there aren't people using it for default load.
Thanks for verifying that.

On the contrary, it consists of defaming the person, evading the argument. Thus, you commited it.

Why does the real world military not use armor piercing rounds as their standard ammunition?

No, it is not, as SnS is much better for their purpose than just the price per box of damage suggests.
SnS is very good at incapacitating targets, especially against stong cybered metatypes. And stray bullets wont kill inocents, a lot less expensive lawsuits make more than up for the more expensive ammunition.
To sum it up:
-much better takedown power (=less chance for bad guy to hit back)
-better penetration against armot without any risk for overpenetration
-less expensive lawsuits for unrightfully hit targets
-non lethal ! <-- Biggest advantage for anyone not expected to kill
-better range or better effectiveness or less expensive than other non lethal methods
-useable against any target, even to a degree against vehicles without permanent damage


So for everyone interested in not leaving bodies (as most Police/security agencies should be) it should be a serious question whether to employ SnS. Certainly not as only type of ammunition but especially for those branches that are not expected to use ammo by the dozens the higher price is more than made up by the much higher effectiveness.
For automatic weapons however SnS is just too expensive.

…uhm… you are aware of the heave use of DU rounds?

Interesting...

In comparison, I usually choose a DMSO/Narcojet combination for taking opponents down over the SnS... it is arguably better, thoguh you do need to wait a second or two for them to go down... rarely have I had to use more than a single round to accomplish this goal, except for maybe the Troll Tank (Which took 2 shots)...

It is all fluff though, people will choose what they like... just because SnS has very good (and Impressive) statistics, does not mean that I am going to use it always... I generally only use SnS for Spirits, as that is often where they shine, at least in my expereince... Statistically, the SnS round is pretty good, but most opponents in practice only tend to take a couple of stun from the round... yes, the -2 to actions is not bad either (though multiple impacts do not stanck, just extend the time penalized), but I have had to use multiple rounds to reduce the heavier opponents (Read anybody with good Body Stats and good Armor) to complete ineffectiveness... whereas the Combination that I have come to rely upon generally only need a single round (most opponents have minimal Willpower compared to armor after all)...

Ammo selection is generally a very personal thing... Stats notwithstanding... I believe that many people here would disagree with my optimal choice, but I have had enough experience with active comparison (Game combats using both rounds) that I am confident that my choice is more optimal for me than using SnS would be...

Keep the Faith

I knew you'd try that, that's why I told you how many of the ones I left out were using S&S ammo: 1 (the stripper). The rest opted for different ammunition. Just keep digging that hole, while you're at it...


Then show me, where in GC your templates are that support your argument.


Wow, just wow.. All the time you have been arguing that every professional would pick S&S as their primary ammunition choice and cited the GC as your supporting evidence and now that it proves you wrong you turn around and claim "well it states that SOME NPCs use it". Thank you, captain obvious! We all agreed that some people may and will use it. That was never a point of debate. Your inane assumption that every professional would use it was. You have been proved wrong. Suck it up and accept it like a man.


Really? You want me (and anyone else) to believe that your QUESTION whether I am familiar with "flexible generalization" was your ARGUMENT? Really? How do you expect me to take you serious anymore?


Not as your primary ammunition choice. Read what I write, chuckles!

While that is all true, the nescessary suspension of disbelief and the fact that security companies obviously opted against it in SR means that their cost/benefit analysis obviously ended up negative for the S&S for anything but specialized ammunition choices.

Grunts rarely, if ever, see actual Armor Piercing rounds in practical use...

Keep the Faith

Except for the very simple fact that Police are issued Tazers for such circumstances... it is a real bitch if you have to yank your SnS loaded Pistol and then change out ammunition for the times when you need (or might need) lethal force... Police and Security Forces are not well known for putting an opponent down and then slitting their throats after all... when they need to employ lethal force, they need it immediately, which is why their service pistols are loaded with "Lethal" ammunition... the Tazer is used for those occasions which are "Non-Lethal"

Keep the Faith

…and the messenger & leader of the drug cartel?
…and the brutal, people torturing Stand Over Man?

Just check what those squads are there to do. Hint: Crooked cops shot dead while resisting arrest are so much easier to deal with.

…if they are not just out to kill anyone – and they do, see the security guards and bodyguards.

It still doesn't, sorry.

…as their primary ammo of choice? Wow… quite an admission.

And the ad hominem continues.

Choice is such a tricky word if the only thing you are issued are irradiated rounds made from nuclear waste.

No, it means the SnS rules do not fit the background. Were SnS Rounds only useable in Shotguns (my favorite houserule) they fare less well in comparison with the basedamage being below regular damage. This would result in SnS be usefull only in special situations and therefore fits the background

Tasers have a rather short rangeactually with SnS more effective than Lethal ammo there is no need to use lethal except in executionsSo you argue Police dont use SnS so their Staff can accidently shoot someone?
There is no need for lethal force when lethal is less likely to take out an opponent.

I give up. You ignore whats right in front of you, you continually shift the goalposts, you don't even understand the logical fallacies you cite and you are woefully ignorant on anything military.

There is simply no point in arguing with you. You just want to be right, no matter the facts against you. Go ahead, wage your S&S crusade and see where it gets you. You failed to provide even a SINGLE valid argument so far.

Absolutely plausible in Shadowrun.

"Usually the boogeyman lives in the mirror."

Curious… this whole thread started with "S&S isn't broken", went to "S&S is broken, but it doesn't matter since no-one is using it as primary ammo." and finally, we are at "S&S is broken, but it's not that bad since only some people are using it as primary ammo."
It's not that a big step to "If S&S was as good as RAW says, every professional not out for massacre would use it as primary ammo – because there's no reason not to." – get over it.

That fact was established when the first player decided his char should use S&S as his primary ammo. Its a fact that is worthless. If you want to celebrate that as a victory, have at it, hoss!

Nah… just take that final little step. It not that hard, really.

No. The reason for them choosing it is what makes them a powergamer, not the actual act. This concept -- like many others -- clearly flies over your head, so it's no surprise at all that you just can't grasp it. But that doesn't change the facts one iota.

As pointed out multiple times by multiple people, the reason would be a sane in-character choice – without any draw-backs or combinations. Unlike the murder-cycle straw-man you are so fond of.

Facts would be based on stats and hard reference. Or NPCs using S&S as primary ammo. Both have been provided.
Not your strange opinion on what constitutes "powergaming".

That you think your response is 1) even remotely accurate or 2) a valid counter to what I've said just drives my point home all the more.

Weren't you the one who brought up the Stormwind fallacy? Doesn't this example fit that fallacy perfectly? Just because a player chooses to optimize his character by buying SnS rounds instead of normal ammunition doesn't mean that he can't have perfectly good role-playing reasons for the choice.

…my expression that I'm not going to dignify your petty tries of attacks with anything resembling effort. Shoo-Shoo.

Only if your point is that you aren't even able to separate opinion from fact.

Nah, absolutely not… because, you see, he's not actually saying that people that choose based on stats can't role-play.
He's just calling them names, while ranting about how they don't respect "the intent of the game world" and "abuse the rules". Simply for having the audacity to use a piece of gear.
That's totally not calling them bad roleplayers.

No... My argument there Bluedragon7, is that police already have a non-lethal option in their possession (The Tazer), and they are effective at the ranges that the vast majority of confrontations actually take place... that range is 7 meters or less... Now, since they already have that non-lethal option covered, and it does not tend to escalate violence like a drawn pistol does, then they would opt for the Tazer in those circumstances, and would use normal rounds in their sidearms for their non-lethal options...

They would do this because the SnS rounds, though effective in some circumstances, are not so good in others, and Physical Trauma means a lot more for those circumstances than non-lethal force and shorted synapsis do...

That is the main reason why in real life, even if we had the technology for SnS rounds, they would still use regular rounds in their sidearms and rely upon their tazer for their more lethal options...

Keep the Faith

Some valid reasons for choosing Stick-n-Shock Rounds:

• You're a pacifist who doesn't believe in killing, but you still need to be able to take opponents down due to secondary benefits of the chosen weapon (Concealability, range, ammo capacity, etc.).
• As a backup clip for those times you do need to take someone down without killing them but don't want to carry a second weapon (such as a taser). Otherwise you should be using a taser which is specifically designed for that function and not specialty ammo in a lethal firearm.

Some invalid reasons for choosing Stick-n-Shock Rounds:

• OMFG dey haz best stats EVAR u dum 4 not usin dem ALL DA TIME!!! OMG OMG OMG!
• Evry1 usez dem!!! c, I find 1 or 2 xsamples dat proof it!!!
• Taser stats SUX BALLZ OMFG!!!
• I chang stats on dem cuz dey overpowa and dis iz y, cuz EVRY1 IZ USIN DEM OMFG AND U DUM 4 NOT!!!!!!!!!!

And yes, that's exactly what I read every time I see one of those asinine arguments. Yet again -- for the umpteenth millionth time -- it's perfectly fine to feel that SnS Rounds, Tasers, or anything else in the game is broken and want to fix it. It's something else entirely to only choose specific items solely for their broken stats and then call anyone who doesn't an idiot. Then, like a moron, start spouting out bullshit like the Stormwind Fallacy in a feeble attempt to justify that stupidity.

In which circumstances are SnS rounds less effective in than normal ammunition? The only one I can think of is when fighting drones and even then SnS does something. I also wonder when lethal force specifically would be neccessary. I can understand a cop wanting to protect his own life over a criminal's but when the non-lethal option is in fact better at taking the criminal down than the lethal option then why have the lethal option at all? For circumstances in which a cop would be firing upon a target with the intent to knock them unconscious then SnS rounds are far superior to normal rounds, at least in a pistol. I am hard-pressed to find a situation in which a cop would specifically be trying to kill a target rather than just knock them out for an hour.

@ Funk: Since when are you a mindreader? How can you know what the intent of an individual was when they chose a specific type of ammunition? And I still disagree with you that even if you know the intention of the player was to create the most powerful character they could that that isn't role-playing. Shadowrun is a game of survival of the fittest, wanting to have the best equipment, the best ammunition, the best team isn't powergaming, it's being realistic. The military, the corps, the terrorists and the cults of shadowrun will all being using the best equipment they can get their hands on so who are you to say that the players can't?

However, the fact being that since not everyone chooses to use SnS, as you claim, makes them what? Stupid? Non-Professional? In my opinion, it makes them discerning...

Guns were created for one thing and one thing only... to kill...
If you have resorted to drawing a gun, you have already made that choice that you are going to kill something, or at least die trying...

Just because there is an alternative non-lethal round, that is designed for weapons intended to kill, does not mean that everyone is going to choose that ammunition... in fact, since there is another weapon that already fills that role pretty damn well (The various tazers, both ranged and melee), this indicates that the SnS rounds are truly a niche round, and would not be chosen over more favorable uses of other ammunition, because, as I said already, you use a gun to kill, not to wound...

Prettty simple really, and the fact you don't grasp that just amazes me, and in the end is really quite amusing...

Keep the Faith

Please inform me of a situation in which a cop would want to kill a target and not knock him unconscious.

So, now it is you, who declared himself RPG Police and has to teach me what I do wrong in my game?!

Are you cool with telling other people what they should or should not do, because it is invalid in your opinion!? Great Attitude towards the freedom of opinion...

But just for you, again(!):

If my character uses SnS, because it is the best ammo he can get, it is a fucking roleplay decision, because he has experienced, that SnS is better than all the other ammos he can get. He is willing and able to pay for it. So in his opinion he would be a fucking fool, if he chooses an other ammo type!
So he uses SnS because of his ingame motivation, experience and knowledge, not because I as a player have seen the stats! And as long as SnS is the best ammo for nearly all situations he will continue doing so, because he is right!

Your hole argument really pisses me off: "Yeah, SnS is overpowered, but it isn't a problem! Nobody uses SnS, because nobody uses SnS! And if someone does, he is a fucking PG!!"

Solving this problem, if you able to percive it, requires to houserule SnS, but I guess you allready choose the fanatic's path to call everybody a powergamer, because your are right and all the others are obviously wrong, because they try to fix a problem, that you have ruled out of existence by your definition.

cya
Tycho

Not talking about unconsciousness, but I can tell you a few situations where a Cop would want to use anything BUT S&S:

-A hostage situation at gunpoint.
-A target holding a detonator, with the thumb over the button.
-A target driving a car.
-A target aiming a gun at the cop.

In all these cases, a gun with gel-ammo would be superior over a gun with S&S.

Hey, another shocker: You can't even get it. Please point out a single instance where I ever said tnat SnS was fine and dandy as is. You won't. Because not only have I never said such a thing, but it's also a completely unrelated issue. Just for you the actual points are: 1) SnS is a specialty ammo that should only be used for specific reasons, just like tasers. 2) SnS ammo is, in fact, very much broken compared to other ammo types, but that doesn't justify point #1. 3) People, both players and NPCs alike, still choose other ammo types despite how broken SnS ammo is, and that is perfectly okay. And finally 4) people who say that everyone should be using SnS ammo 24/7 in all cases are powergaming twits who are only saying that because of the broken stats, not because it should be the case in-game.

How about you people try to read what's actually being written as opposed to what you so desperately, insistently, and utterly delusionaly think is being written? You are the ones seeing shit that isn't there. "OMG, he says people shouldn't be using SnS ammo 24/7?!? CLEARLY HE THINKS SNS IS FINE AND PERFECTLY BALANCED!!! And he also thinks that it's completely inline with all other ammo types and not the best based purely on their stats! OMFG!!! WHAT AN IDIOT HE IS!!!! STORMWIND FALLACY, MAN!!!!!!!!!! I R ROLLPLAYAR NOT MUNCKIN!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIYEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! <head fucking explodes>"

No, definitely not unless you are talking about highpowered Rifles. Gel makes much less damage, especially against heavy Armor