All true. Any other option on my part does nothing but improve the odds I won't get paid. You acted as your conscience dictated; I am doing the same. My point in posting was only to illustrate that it's a mistake to paint all freelancers with the same brush--which you have not done.

True. But if we all do it at once, production halts, and no one gets paid. In small enough doses (and I'm speaking in general terms, as I have no inside information) it's survivable. In one organized batch, fatal. And contrary to what appears the popular sentiment around here, I'm quite certain killing IMR would make certain I never got paid.

Or if he finds himself getting drawn into taking sides, leave the moderation to others, which was what I suggested. I never said anything about becoming a robot so don't put words into my mouth.



Yes, "unless". It's very easy to get sucked into something like this. I think it's entirely a fair comment to observe that there's a considerable risk when the person who is both dishing out mod-comments, thread locks, etc. is also actively taking a side in the discussion. Do you disagree with that?



What do you mean "I don't seem to have a problem in other threads" ? Must I monitor all threads on Dumpshock to ensure that I even-handedly make comments in all threads instead of merely the ones I am aware of?

The tone of your post is getting pretty personal.




The innocent are always harmed by the consequences of the actions of the guilty. If the guilty's actions had no consequences on innocent people, then they wouldn't be guilty of anything. Can you clarify the above?




What is the argument that this will increase the odds? Is it that his expertise or management skills will allow CGL to be more profitable? It seems unlikely anyone is going to make that argument. Is it that he has friends in Topps as could be inferred from Randall Bills' letter? If that is so then it may be the case but it's pretty reprehensible that this comes down to back-scratching. If it's that trying to get Loren Coleman out means he'll stop promising to pay the money back, your contention is possible but it's even more reprehensible.

Really, I'm not sure what the above is in response to and I'm addressing it only because it follows with your replies to me so might be addressing me. I regard it as pretty irrelevant. CGL sounds as though it's in a right mess and Loren Coleman going or staying isn't going to change that, but it sounds like he's not going anyway, so it's academic.




Is it not at least plausible that if the licences are awarded to other companies, the freelancers can sell their work to a new and solvent company and presumably get paid?

@Dacoit: I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. To be honest, option 4 really does sound like your best hope: keep trying for the money you're owed but transfer your effort and work to projects that look safer (i.e. other companies) if at all possible. Unless you feel that dropping out of the active developer pool would prejudice your chances of seeing the money, in which case you really are riding the tiger. I wish you the best of luck with your situation, anyway.



I think the idea is that it's not the witholding of copyrights that is going to do for CGL. The numbers I'm hearing for freelancer monies owed are thousands here, sometimes hundreds there. Big figures to those owed the money with bills to pay. But small in comparison to what must be several tens of thousands for printing costs. And reportedly, CGL is unable to pay their printers for the release of work. If that is the case, then Freelancers role in sinking CGL is put into a different perspective.

Peace,

Khadim.

I agree. For an example of how best to handle when you are drawn into taking sides, see Bull. He knew it was personal, knew he was being drawn in, and chose to take the high road by withdrawing from the mod pool. I gained a lot of respect for him because of it.

I doubt any of us wants the moderators to act like robots, but I (and speaking only for me) would like them to stay above the fray.

My observations, both here and on sites for other popular games, is that the roleplaying industry is either somehow more forgiving of this stuff, or just works on a whole different scale. That's purely my observation though.

I don't believe every freelancer has had the purest of intentions here but blaming the lot of them, even just the most vocal ones, for any sort of dishonesty or unprofessionalism feels a little like you've totally glossed over what the opposition is responsible for doing. Lets be honest: There has been a whole lot of unprofessional and dishonest going on on both sides of the fence here.


I couldn't disagree more. I don't feel that a company should practice (or forgive) any behavior from any tier of their organization which invites whistle blowing. Does that make me naive? Probably.

Allegedly, and competing for a contract isn't stealing it. Is bringing all of this mess to light now that the contract is up for negotation a little shady? I'll give you that, but this is about way more than a few people not getting paid and if the license was not being properly managed... it deserves to be awarded to someone else.

I can't fault you that. I've made the decision not to support IMR/CGL due to this situation. You are certainly free to see it the other way.

I believe Jaid's point was that if CGL's boat sinks, you hurt a lot more people than just Loren Coleman, people who were in no way responsible for what happened. The point is that the situation is very messy and involves a lot of people, and yet some individuals have been happy to engage in a faulty simplification Coleman=Bad, CGL=Coleman, CGL=Bad. Pragmatists like myself who then point out the flaws of that position are then accused of being sycophants and apologists.

EDIT: oh and Concern Trolls, I wouldn't want to forget about that.

Who though? I mean lets face it, Shadowrun is a 3rd tier game in a niche industry, where even the '900 lb gorilla' is a moderate sized division, within a tiny division of a multibillion dollar toy company. We're not talking about someone snapping up the Harry Potter movie rights here. Look at it this way, if Topps pulls the license, is it really in their interest to spend the time and effort tracking down another company to produce it right away? I mean hell, it's already paid for. What does it matter to Topps if they sit on it for a few years? Maybe they can figure out a way to make it collectible and market it to 8 year olds. I have some very serious doubts as to whether or not this Sandstorm or whoever it is has a snowballs chance in hell of making a serious offer for the IP given how little time they have between now (assuming Catalyst looses the license) and when Topps simply stops giving a shit for the next decade. Don't believe me? How long did Hasbro sit on Gi-Joe? And Gi-Joe was an order of magnitude more popular than Shadowrun ever has, or likely ever will be.

At the end of the day, I want someone to keep making books for my Shadowrun game. The only way I see this happening is if Catalyst keeps the license. Ergo, I want Catalyst to get its shit together and keep the license.

Slight correction, if IMR goes down Loren has hurt a lot more people. Let's not forget why the boat is going down.

it's less about selling work that hasn't yet been published than it is getting paid for stuff that has.

Not being paid for unpublished stuff is fine - some people might disagree, but we all knew going in you work on stuff with the risk that it won't be used. I'm sure every freelancer has a pile of stuff they sweated on that was never used. And not talking a few 500 word stories or TRO entries - talking tens of thousands of words. (which if we got paid for would equal thousands of dollars)

In a very similar way, you can replace "Writer with "GM" and "writing" with "gamemastering" and find the source of many SR arguments.

I've been thinking about this whole mess, and specifically about actions we might see out of IMR/CGL that would indicate what the future looks like. Here's where my speculation has gone, and I may be wrong on all of this.


Catalyst Gets It's Act Together
This would be the best option, I think, for the game. This would let the game continue and prosper. It would mean the following:

• True restructuring and process improvement to prevent future issues
• Payment of all outstanding debts (including freelancers, publishers and Topps)
• Resumption of production schedule
• Concerted effort by IMR/CGL senior management to reach out to the former freelancers to return them to the fold
• LLC resign and work out a repayment plan
• Open communications to show the customers that true change is occurring and that visible improvements will be made
• Focused efforts on advancing Shadowrun

LLC Tries to Save Himself
This is what I think we are seeing. It looks similar to the above, but with some differences. My guess is that LLC can not be removed, and so he refuses to step down and puts Randal Bills in an untenable situation to try and manage with an albatross around his neck. It also puts Jason Hardy in a tough spot as he must continue to try and produce product people will buy, without the elephant in the room being removed.

• Apparent restructuring and process improvement to prevent future issues, without significant transparency into the changes
• Payment of some outstanding debts to move inventory
• LLC remain as a part of the company
• Limited communications both internally and externally which allows rumor and speculation to grow and flourish
• Implementation of significant measures to conserve cash flow and increase short term revenue

LLC Tries to Burn It Down on the Way Out
This looks like the above, but with different actions towards the end of the life cycle. I don't think we've seen this, but some of the recent posts, especially given the nature of the posts, timing, and other factors, causes me to worry that this may be what happens. This would most likely happen if IMR/CGL loses the license.

• Apparent restructuring and process improvement to prevent future issues, without significant transparency into the changes
• Payment of some outstanding debts to move inventory
• LLC remain as a part of the company
• Limited communications both internally and externally which allows rumor and speculation to grow and flourish
• Implementation of significant measures to conserve cash flow and increase short term revenue
• Attempts to control all information
• Repeated attacks on those who expose alternate narratives
• Initiation of actions designed to "burn bridges"
• Initiation of actions designed to evade taxes or hide revenue (after implementation of "new controls")
• Creation of scapegoats
• Selling of fixed assets
• Publicly damaging the line

These are just my thoughts and speculation at the end of a long day.

-M&P

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Kane, of course.

Very True indeed...

Keep the Faith

That is indeed true. Now, without calling whatever co-mingling went down at CGL "theft", if someone stole half a million from the needy, and then claimed that he should not go to prison because he might not be able to pay back the victims otherwise, but had a house worth 500K, should one follow that line of reasoning? If not, why should one then act is if the only way for the freelancers to get paid is to support Loren?

Even if only a tenth of the draws LLC made from CGL are not justified that should be enough money to cover all open freelancer payments. And his house is not going to poof, so he has assets to cover that.

How do you know he has NOT already mortgaged his house to pay back CGL(Or that the bank is refusing to
mortgage his house until the license renewal is finished)? How do you know what(if any) methods Coleman is
using to pay CGL/IMR back? You are saying he is not, so I am assuming you can show proof on that. Me? I
do not know what is going on, but am inclined to be more optimistic. Because, the optimistic view is the one that
is most suited towards someone wanting to have income: IF Coleman cannot save CGL, get the license renewed,
and keep CGL making money, then he is unlikely to make future money. The best way for him to save CGL,
and keep it as a viable source of income is to put as much of his resources as he can into the company now and
payback what he owes it, either through writing off debts owed to the company(long term help, short term, not
so much) and giving back funds he has to the limit of what he needs for his basics of food, utilities, and mortgage payments.

read it line by line, then and observe that it has absolutely nothing to do with your posting or not posting in other threads. i will restate: you don't have problems with moderators having and expressing opinions in other threads, right? if a moderator has an opinion about technomancers being overpowered or underpowered or of an appropriate power level, you don't tell them they should back off on moderating threads about the relative power level of technomancers, right? why? presumably because the moderators are able to form an opinion and express that opinion without allowing it to interfere with their duties as moderators on a regular basis, because it has not been a problem to date. the moderators are apparently able to do a pretty good job of moderating themselves *everywhere else* on these boards. i don't think it's unreasonable to trust them to be capable of doing exactly what they already do, every day, unless we have some indication that there is an actual problem. every moderator is going to have an opinion about every thread on every subject in dumpshock. if they only moderate threads where they have no opinion whatsoever, then we're going to have completely unmoderated forums, because even "i don't really feel strongly about it one way or another" is an opinion, and yet while i'm sure there are plenty of topics where a given moderator looks at it and says "this isn't really important" or "i don't agree with <other poster> on this issue", we don't appear to have an awful lot of threads locked just because it's not relevant to that specific mod, and we don't appear to have an awful lot of people getting banned or issued warnings for having a different opinion than a moderator. we already have pages upon pages of threads that show pretty clearly how the moderating team handles themselves in situations where they have an opinion act, and i don't see anything in those many pages of evidence to give me concern one way or another in the matter.



because the freelancers aren't the only ones harmed by the co-mingling... for example, there are the employees of CGL who we know to have worked for reduced or even no pay, there are other members of IMR who have also lost their investments, and any other debtors CGL may have, like banks, or lawyers who would be involved in the legal dispute that would ensue... and who would all be entitled to first shot at any money gained from the suit before the freelancers. because the house is more likely to sit on the housing market and rot than it is to cover his debts any time in the near future. because legal action resulting in the house being taken from the colemans and sold to pay their debts is not by any means a sure thing.

this isn't some magical system where you point at a house, wave your wand, and it turns into a pile of cash that mails itself out to the freelancers. trying to simplify it to that level won't make it so.

the key here is to remember that there's all kinds of stuff that WE DON'T KNOW. how much money DOES CGL owe to it's various debtors? we don't know. what exactly is it about loren l coleman's presence that randall bills feels is the best chance for CGL to recover and be able to pay it's debtors? we don't know. heck, how much exactly did loren l coleman co-mingle? again, we don't even know that. there are huge gaping holes in what we know.

a lot of people are acting on incomplete information and making moral judgements of people who they haven't met, who's situation they don't understand, and are doing so based on little more than rumors and hearsay. a lot of people are screaming for revenge heedless of what that does to others who are involved in the situation who have not done anything wrong.

if a police officer chooses not to shoot someone because that person has a hostage, even though that person is clearly a threat to the well-being of others and might even be a candidate for getting shot if they didn't have a hostage at that time (say, for example, if the hostage was beyond their reach to harm at that time), i doubt there's anyone here who would accuse the police officer of committing an injustice. is loren l coleman holding things hostage to keep himself from facing the music? i don't know. you don't know. none of us know. like i said, we're drastically uninformed. certainly, it isn't on the level of a person with a gun to a hostage's head, since the action won't directly kill anyone (and isn't particularly likely to indirectly kill anyone either). but one way or another, what comes out of this could very well decide the financial futures of a lot of people, and only one of those people is named loren l coleman.

as for buying the manuscripts, well, that's another place we get into something ugly. much of the material in question isn't manuscripts, it's actually already-printed books that have already been sold to the public. the new company, if any, may or may not want to touch that potential legal landmine with a 10 foot pole.

there's a saying that i'm sure many of you have heard before. it goes something along the lines of "walk a mile in another man's shoes before you make any judgements of him." i just find it odd that so many of you would likely agree with that concept if you were asked about it, and yet are so quick to judge the actions of others without complete information.

as has also been pointed out, someone once upon a time thought the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" was a pretty good way of handling things, and again, i bet a lot of you would agree with that. except, you know, it's apparently more convenient to just start condemning people based on your opinion.

certainly, loren l coleman may have stolen a lot of money (and in fact, it looks really likely that he did). perhaps randall bills really is his partner in crime, perhaps not. perhaps sandstorm really was formed in a bitter attempt by angry employees to make life hard for CGL (in my opinion, it seems unlikely, but again, we don't really have any proof one way or another). perhaps Jason Hardy is, as he has been accused, trying to get himself into a better position to transfer to a new company when CGL collapses. but in all cases, the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" should still apply, because while it has it's flaws, "guilty until proven innocent" is much much worse.

To turn round your point at Fuchs on your own post, you'd need to know quite a bit about LLC's finances to make a confident statement that the best approach for him is to put everything back into the company. I don't know much about his personal finances either, but I think it's legitimate to point out that if CGL is in trouble, and he owes it hundreds of thousands (unpaid printers, unpaid freelancers stuck in Hobson's Choice like Dacoit, etc)., then if he's a chance of just keeping the money and letting CGL fall, then keeping a few hundred thousand dollars works out at a pretty nice annual income for a few years. Would he get the same reward if he started mortaging his home etc. to support the company? There's no knowledge that LLC would be best off "giving back funds he has to the limit of what he needs for his basics of food, utilities, and mortgage payments." And I can see reasons why it wouldn't be. If he can walk away with hundreds of thousands in profit (or thinks he can) and go get a job doing something else, then if he's the sort of person who would do such a thing, then that's what he'd do.

Anyway, in amongst all this hypothesis, my position remains the same as it always was. CGL has lost several of the people who forged 4th Edition into what it was and, if LLC is retained, has lost more people still. If I like 4th a lot which I do, then my best hope of continued quality is for a new licensee which recovers that talent. A simple position: I want to see the game survive and retain quality.

K.

See, I figure that there is not much of a market for has-been authors who cannot make their deadlines(Proven
by no Machine Nations on Battlecorps, and no Shadows of Faith novel for the novel line), and this would pretty
much make no (sane or non-leveraged) business person want to trust Coleman to manage their game company.
So, unless Coleman is planning to get a job at a 7-11 or flipping burgers at a McDonald's, there is no job he would
be likely to get. Would you hire him after you do a search for info on him, and find out about this, even if not proven?

So, you know...yes, I do think that, unless he has a LOT invested outside of CGL, he likely will need CGL in the long run. As much as, right now, they need him to payback what he owes. I also believe that having a successful and viable CGL is in Coleman's long term best interests simply because I do not see anyone else ever willing to hire
the man. I mean, in my area, I had trouble getting a job because I had been at my previous job for almost 10 years.
If that is enough of a reason for people to not want to hire someone, then how much do you think their background
checks to look for his facebook, myspace, twitter, etc will look at his record from CGL?

Why then should any (sane or non-leveraged) business person trust a company he owns with their license/money?

Because the license has been doing OK, so far, and better the devil you know....

Given that the "internet rep" you mentioned points at the license having done better than was reported to Topps, i.e. sales not having been reported correctly, and you think such an "internet rep" would be grounds enough to bar Coleman from getting another job, why should this internet rep not prevent his firm from gettin the license?

Doesn't add up.

Err, if Coleman hasn't being paying Topps (and that's presumably the reason Topps has the auditors in at IMR), then actually why the hell would Topps continue? The devil they know is defrauding them out of Royalties. Topps only cares about two things

A) The royalities
B) the residual value of the license

With Royalties not being paid, and key freelancers and staff fleeing the ship, the devil you know is pretty appalling - it's certainly net negative for you.

We can't know that. Maybe with his house fully paid for he can sit back and take his time looking for other jobs. Maybe he already has other jobs. Maybe he has friends who'll get him a job (Randall Bill's "Titans of the Industry" comments), maybe he'll become a generic manager in a different industry. Maybe he'll pull a fast switch and take off with BattleTech, maybe any number of things. We just don't know. Which is why your comment to Fuch's earlier about what LLC will do is written on the wind. You're arguing that X is the case. I'm arguing that it's one possibility amongst X, Y and Z. Your belief is based on the idea that LLC is best off staying on the ship and trying to stop it sinking. But, unless I'm wrong, you don't know whether or not the ship can be stopped from sinking. Reputedly there are books held hostage at the printers because of unpaid bills. Reputedly CGL has burned its relationship with numerous printers already. They're being charged with bankruptcy. Much of this behaviour is not logical on the parts of the people involved unless you think the ship is likely to sink. And these people are likely to have a better idea about things than we are. So if the ship is sinking, LLC jeopardising all his filthy lucre on the chance of saving it seems unwise on his part (though it would be ethical to pay your debts). Your argument all comes from a premise that the ship is not sinking. And that premise seems very uncertain to me. Certainly uncertain enough to creditors that they have chosen to try and get what they can now rather than (as would be the logical approach if you thought all this would work out) wait patiently for CGL to get back on its feet.

That's my take on it,

K.

@Jaid: I had a lengthy reply written, then realized much of what I said has been covered elsewhere - in the other 7 threads. Many of the comments you have made have been made and addressed ad nauseum throughout the threads.

-M&P

Shadowrun-related reasons I want CGL to fail:

1) Increased likelihood of a truly new edition happening in the next year or so.
2) Recovery of estranged free lancers.
3) Improved product release. How is it that we are 5 years into SR4 and the only reason we are getting a Corporate Download style book is to try and scramble to save the company?
4) Overlapping storylines: dovetails off of #3 but the 2050's always seemed to have 3-4 things happening each year. Need a faster release schedule to get these metaplots going again.
5) Separation of BT from SR. Different companies to cater to different needs.

No offense to any of the freelancers or CGL employees who would get screwed by this but CGL going up in flames is the best situation for a fan like me.

That's an interesting one. Can you clarify something for me? Do you believe that no company could handle those two games together? I mean, there are companies out there that successfully handle multiple games from different genres. I'm guessing (hence why I'm asking) that it's directed more towards the fact that CGL's upper management and a number of its core positions were formerly (or currently) held by "Battletech guys." I'm just wondering if you really think that all games of different genres shouldn't/couldn't be handled by a single company, if there's proper division. If it's more directed specifically at CGL's situation, well, I might not disagree with you there. Just not sure if I could go whole hog to say that this mixing should never happen in any company.

I'm very curious, have you received any payments after this whole mess went public, and are you still owed anything?

I have answered this. And my answer was not the result of failing to understand what you said.

I don't read every single thread on this forum. You keep saying that I "don't have a problem with this in other threads" from which I'm inferring that you're saying my point is invalid because I apply it inconsistently - that I'm showing a bias in making the point here. To which again, I reply, that I don't read every thread and if I came across similar instances elsewhere then yes, I would probably say the same. That you say there are instances out there where I haven't done so means nothing unless I'm actually aware of those instances. And if you really want to take the tone of "read it line by line", then I feel compelled to point out for the second time that I am not saying what you keep telling me I'm saying: That I have a problem with moderators having and expressing opinions. What I have clearly stated and will do so for your benefit a third time, is this: if there's a heated argument, and someone is both taking one of the sides in that debate and issuing warnings to other participants, locking the thread, etc., then that's a demonstrable conflict of interest.

Sure way for killing foreign Editions in Germany and France, IMO.

Who cares?

Why?

-M&P

SR4 came a little late in Germany, as the license negotiations took some time back then. So it's only 2 or 3 years in the market here. With SR5, people would need to buy new core books too fast, some people fear.

Fair question as CGL seems to cram foreign royalties into their very own pockets.

Well, maybe they can delay a release this go around too. Give the translators ample time to do the job thoroughly and maybe localize the books instead of just translating. I'm sure most of you don't run in Seattle/HK. 5 years is just right under a normal release schedule (which admittedly hasn't happened) and is far to long for someone who doesn't like an edition (like me YMMV). In NA they got the core books out within 3 years for 2 years worth of play with the "full" rule set. Can it wait longer? Yes. Can CGL or whoever replaces them wait longer? There's no reason why they should AFAIK.

Note: I don't count SR$A in the new edition equation.

Huh, according to Amazon.de Shadowrun 4.01 is there since 2005 Fantasy Productions; Auflage: 1 (ups that was/is the Limited Edition)
Here the normal Version. Ulisses Spiele; Auflage: 2., Aufl. (Oktober 2005).

Or did you mean the version from Pegasus? ( but that got published in September 2009 )

The Truth lies somewhere in between.

Yes, we had the BBB and the SM from FanPro in German, but we had no German SR at all for nearly 2 years when FanPro went down and Ulisses and Pegasus where fighting for the license. SR4A and RC where published by Pegasus in German last fall, meaning we have the complet core books in German for just about half a year.

Ever wonder why a mod needs a different color when posting?

The moderators are specifically screened and chosen for their ability to perform their moderation duties yet still participate meaningfully on the boards.

If you have a problem with any single moderator you can report them to the moderation team. We're human, we make mistakes, and are subject to Warnings and bans just like everyone else.

If you have a problem with the post, you can report that to the moderating team and it will be reviewed by the entire moderating team.

If you have a problem with the board moderation in general you can start a thread in the appropriate forum.

If you have a problem with a moderator because they have an opinion different then yours, and thus you think they shouldn't be a moderator, then you're going to end up having problems with all the moderators. Not because they all disagree with you, but because they'll have a different opinion then yours at some point.

"So and So has opinion X which is clearly wrong so they are not fit for duty Y" is an argument many people should be all too familiar with, especially when "opinion X" might have no relation whatsoever to what is required to perform "duty Y"

So I am going to speculate that CGL will in fact get the license renewed.

Then what?

What will it take to bring people back together and play the game?

Or with the license being renewed will that only ratchet up the anger/rage?

Can we agree mistakes were made, see if corrections will take place and move forward?

What will it take?

I'd like to slide in one point about moderators: part of the criteria they're picked for is "Do they participate in the community?" -- and it would be a shame to, immediately after they become moderators, for their community participation to dwindle down to nothing but moderator-related actions. We'd be robbing goodness from the community.

Was confused about the 2-3 years in Arclights post.
Didnt fit the orginal publishing of the 4. edition and not the publishing of the same rules with new layout and Errata.
And doesnt change that SR 4e was published in 2005 in Germany (or was the FanPro printing nowhere available? Dont know didnt play SR in this time period.)

And nitpicking, but RC isnt a Core book, or is it?
(do we use the D&D 4e term of Core book?)

For the record I bought the Pegasus Version of books last year, but I might get interested in an 5th edition if in an hypothetical new RC all play options would be playable...

Agreed.

seeing how the freelancers have left?
time to see if the new ones can deliver and to see wether or not it's good.

I've always considered the "core books" to be the ones that covered additional rules for the core concepts plus the BBB. So BBB, Magic book, Cyber book, Gun/Vehicle book, and Hacker book. Unwired was the last one and hit NA in the summer of 2008. That's 2 months short of 2 years.

@Bob: I'd have to see what the new freelancers are producing, what's in the pipeline, and how fast books are published. Even then I won't be playing SR4 but instead SR3, WFRPG3 or D&D4 converted SR. If quatlity stayed high and the production schedule picked up with NEW events and topics then I'd probably purchase books to flesh out my alternative rule-sets.

Unfortunately, everything that Frank and Ancient have been hinting at points to quality being VERY poor and the release schedule being bleak for at least another year or two. And as often as Frank has spanked my ass on these forums I'm more inclined to believe him and Ancient over what I've been hearing from the other side.

Yes, the Core Rules were avaible Fall 2005, SM Late 2006, Mai 2007 Fanpro collapsed...

now, here is the point:

in USA in Sommer 2007 new book were released.

in Germany nothing happened until Fall 2008, so there were 1,5 years without a German Publisher or any support at conventions etc. Back then Pegasus got the license and started publishing the core books and made Support for SR4. The Pegasus Core Rules (in fact the Anniversary Edition) were released Sep 09.

There were many people that did not start to play SR4, because they wanted to wait for all the Core books to be available, which did not happen until end of 09. SR4 here has really started as Pegasus took over, there the forth edition and all books are just 1,5 years old. SR5, if is going to happen, will not sell good in Germany, thats for sure! Allmost everbody who played Shadowrun has bought all the books in the last 1,5 year. They will not spent the same money again in the next years on SR5, if they have bought the new books right now.

On the other hand: Pegasus does a great job, next week is Nordcon in Hamburg, at which the German Translation of Vice is released and so Pegasus released as all books of CGL, but in half the time, even adding value like 50pages chapter of Frankfurt in Corporate Enclaves and other stuff.

on topic:

If I do not hear an official statement today, I believe CGL has lost the license. For all we know, the license ends today, and considering the last "good news" released by CGL , they would not hold back on a confirmation of renewal! I do not expect that this statement is going to happen, which leaves my with the hope, that a new company takes an the license and the damage done by Loren L Colemen will be controlled, so that I have a chance of getting books from freelancers like Ancient History and Jay Levine.

cya
Tycho

Does the contract end tonight?

i'm going to be at nordcon, seeing how i live 5 minutes of walking away from that place.
also, i am not too sure, but i think i actually saw german vice in one of my little shops allready . .

a few friends, some dice and a pizza delivery number? That's all I need.


Nope, I just want more Shadowrun books. I do not want to see the IP get caught in limbo and see the line die.


If CGL gets their house in order and produces good books I'll keep buying.


Shadows of Latin America printed on gold leaf? Seriously despite the raging and gnashing of teeth contained in these threads I honestly think that the average Shadowrun player or GM probably doesn't even realize that this drama is going on, and even if they do have an idea of the proceedings honestly probably doesn't care as long as they can keep running their games.

For you, if CGL retains the license then there is nothing that can be done to smooth over the situation? Considering that the low probability of fences being mended with the afore mentioned freelancers.

Imperialus, you are probably right and I like how you think (as far as what you need)! It would be cool to entertain the possibility that there could be a meeting of the minds and that we could move on if CGL retains the license.

Stahlseele, Cheops, fair enough.