As a writer with many friends in the entertainment industry, I'm going to have to thoroughly disagree with you on that one, at least with that specific phrasing.

Now if what you mean was that the current copyright laws in the US, Canada, England, Australia, the EU, etc. as they are written and enforced cause more harm than good, then you might have a point. But if you mean to say that the ability for anyone creative to have a way to protect their work, then I'm sorry but I cannot agree with that. For a good example, see the current clusterfuck going on right now with the freelancers and payment. The only weapon they have to defend themselves against this sort of thing is that they own the copyright to material they have produced and only surrender that copyright upon payment per contract for work-for-hire. Sure, they could sue for breach of contract...but if it's only a couple hundred or couple thousand dollars, court costs alone not counting lawyers fees will blow that option right out of the water.

So basically...do we need to re-write our copyright laws to protect the consumer as much as the creator? Yes. Do we need to ditch copyright altogether? HELL no.

In a attempt to move away from any possible further discussion on copyright as it will never be a safe conversation. Has anyone heard anything new about the situation as we are now a full week into June and I'm wondering will this ever be settled

From what I understand, the license isn't up until next week at least. We'll probably see an announcement tomorrow (Monday) morning that the license has been extended another 3 months to a year to allow for a thorough investigation before any long-term deals are signed. That's just my guess though.

Food for thought.

Sorry, nope. Like I said, I'm a writer. For every project I write, I put in just as much work (sometimes more) per output as I do at my day job. Without copyright protection in some form, it is flat-out impossible for me to receive any payment or compensation for that work, which means why should I bother doing the work? You want copyright reform so that Sherlock Holmes and Lovecraft can come into public domain? I'll agree with that. You want the ability to put your music/movies/books/whatever in any format you choose after you've paid for it? No problem. But don't for a second thing that we don't need some form of copyright law to protect artists. Go check up on patent law and how screwed up that is right now, then start attacking poor writers, artists, and musicians.

Sorry to see you go. I lurk mostly, and yes, I'm one of the people this mess dragged to dumpshock. You're clearly passionate about the game, and hope you come back soon, whoever ends up with the game.

Regarding your current game, I wouldn't drop it just yet. Members of your group have been reading your notes online? So use it against them. Let them all head in the direction you were originally going to go, then make that the wrong thing to do. Oops, they got suckered by bad intel. Welcome to Shadowrun?

Then find a different group if they haven't learned the lesson

I love the suggestion for letting them use outside of game intel but making it be false.

Damn shame, Knasser, but understandable. I'd recommend the Den as an alternative (the discussions are at the least thought-provoking, and there's likely no better place to get information about mechanics and concepts of RPGs in general), but it's not to everybody's taste.

Well, over there insulting people ain't as big of an issue as fallacies . .
If you can live with that and work with it, it's good.

Dear moderators,
When loosing such a prolific creator for fan material as Khadim, it makes me sad. I respectfully request stepped up moderator involvement a la nba refs calling the fouls much tighter in a chippy game.
Thanks

I've noticed that, too, but frankly, this whole thread has gotten so out of control and with people like Bull and Trollman (and now Knasser) already banned or recused, I don't know if it even matters. The only nice things to come out of all this were SoLA, Derie's drafts, and the Tom Dowd cameos. I've just elected to leave it alone while checking in periodically for any news. Either Topps will renew the license and through patience and discipline Hardy will "win" the PR battle. Some of the bitter old timers will leave and move on to new games (Eclipse Phase?), others will eventually come around. Or, a new company will win the license, maybe even a good one, and for years to come the old timers will debate the merits of the new company and whether or not books published in the Hardy era should be considered canon or not.

Well, it looks like the book that Jason sent to the printers last week was Corp Guide, because you can buy it now. At least, the PDF.

Jason, any chance of giving us a sample? For your own vindication it would be nice to see a section that was originally AH's work.

I can understand if you don't want to go that route, but as a customer I'm feeling pretty abused by CGL's policy of "soldiering on" like nothing is wrong. But that's been hashed and rehashed here. Fact is that you're missing an otherwise regular sale from me unless I have a reason to buy, and "Shadowrun" on the cover doesn't cut it anymore because I don't know what's backing that name these days. And I'm sure there are others that feel the same way. How about reaching out and standing by your product? But more than just standing there next to it; because, let's be honest, you're building your own rep here as well. I won't speak to your editing or your fiction, I'm curious how you and the people you trust with the line handle the meat of this game. At this minute there isn't enough to make my curiosity worth $18, because things really are that bad.

I doubt it was sent to the printers unless it was already there before all this. No way would they risk having to pulp the run if they don't get the license renewed (unless they rushed it to the printers as the license might let them continue to sell whatever had already been printed even if it's not renewed).

And I can't say who originally wrote it, but most of the sites seem to have the first half dozen or so pages online as a sample. I'd personally like to get more, but that's because I'm curious and I also can't fathom paying that much for a PDF. If I buy a book, I want a dead tree in my hands...but that's just me. My roommate's spent more on books for his Kindle than I have so far this year, and that's seriously saying something with my reading habits.

Corp Guide Release Thread

Sometimes you don't need an official statement...sometimes actions speak volumes all by themselves.

Before you ask...

There has been no statement to the current freelancers about the license.
Nor have I received information from anyone at CGL that the license has been renewed.

Putting up a Corp Guide sample on the Shadowrun4.com website is on my to-do list for today.

Jason H.

You and I came on about the same time, and much earlier in the threads. We fired our shots, then sat back and watched the show. However, we both actually bothered to read all that came before and where, in my opinion, respectful.

I've always viewed online forums as a large party, where everyone is welcome. Every time someone new comes in, there is a bit of a disturbance by the front door as they announce themselves and settle into the environment. It is entirely possible that, given the nature of the CGL situation, a lot more people have decided to come to the party, and so we're seeing the normal influx of new people and "Hello World" craziness that happens. My concern is that given the number of new posters who came in kicking the door open and making a scene, I wondered if someone hired a crazy bus and drove up.

To me it matters, because a concerted group trying to overwhelm the message boards can derail an otherwise sane discussion. But again, it could be nothing more than the normal side effects of the CGL situation.


Agreed. And those were nice things.


Agreed again, but we've already said our piece on this a few threads ago.

-M&P

Jason,

Earlier you asked us to grade you by the work you produced. So far, I give Corp Guide a B. There are some things I don't like, some things I would have changed, and a few places where you can tell it isn't as polished as others. However, given the situation, not a bad job. I'll have more to say as I read it over in detail.

-M&P

That all seems a little strange coming from someone who registered on 3/23/2010. Discounting and disparaging posters by newness is IMO a pretty shitty underhanded tactic.

Yesterday, Tobias "Tigger" Hamelmann (German SR line developer) held a "What's up with Shadowrun" panel at the NordCon convention in Hamburg.
While he mainly talked about future German products the license question and its consequences for the German line were raised, naturally.

Tobias made it very clear that he was speaking hypothetically (he does not expect IMR/CGL to lose the license) but just in case IMR's license should not get renewed he is confident that German players would not even notice it as "a month at most" would pass until the license would find its new home.
Apparently there are several groups/companies interested in the license and every one of them has already stated its intend to continue working with Pegasus as the German sub-licensee (it seems the same goes for the French publisher, Black Book Editions).
Tobias didn't tell names but among the interested parties there are "several known faces from SR's past".

[All quotes from memory.]

I wasn't "Discounting and disparaging posters by newness". I was commenting on the content of those posters and the apparent coincidence of their newness. I also, in the quote you partially quoted, referenced my own newness. I also mentioned I had read the other threads before posting, which I don't believe you did. If you had, you would notice where I related my personal history with Shadowrun, and the fact that I have lurked on this forum for several years without an account given who I worked for and the nature of the work. It is that past nature which raised the red flags which I commented on - specifically the apparent coordinated nature of the postings.

-M&P

There is nothing apparent about it. And it is precisely that language which does disparage and discount other posters without reference to the content of their posts.

Let's not blow this up too much. Knasser, like several other GMs that post a lot of content from their own games on personal sites, end up needing a break. Given the fact that a lot of stuff is going on with CGL and the fact that he's got some issues with his home group, it makes sense for him to get away for a bit.

I've been around here since shortly after SR4 was released, maybe 4 years or so and when I'm not actively running a game, it fairly natural to not keep in touch with the game forum. I seem to remember him taking a break like this a year or two ago and then he came back recharged and ready to contribute again.

I'd say, don't make a big deal about it. He said what he was doing, so just let him do it. Don't try to rationalize or find cause, just let it happen. He'll be back. We always come back...even those that we don't want and swear to never post here again:)

Let's just say there was indeed an influx of new posters in these specific threads who all seemed to have quite a chip on their shoulder. Many were from the BT Forums, but there also were some who seemed to come from Frank's forum or at least have been directed here via their place. Not claiming this applies to you. It's just a generalised observation.

And, though I have been a member here since 5 years (and a lurker for much longer), my activity here also is periodic. I have a life outside the Forums too.

Hell, I've been inactive around these parts for ages myself. Been a Shadowrun fanboy since I was 12 (yes, I bought SR2 the month it hit the shelves in 1992 and wore that damn book out to the point I had to buy it again...then wore THAT copy down and had to rebuy it again), joined these forums back in 2003 or so when I started hunting down all the books I was missing and got into reading the metaplot stuff in detail. Then I'd get bored with it or distracted by something shiny...and 6 months to a year later be right back. This last time, it's been probably 2-3 years, but just like Michael Corleone, just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in!

Can we get back to speculating about CGL?
Or at least back to working on MegaMek

To those who don't think there will be anything in print, I have to ask about my shiny new Operation Klondike. Its in print, beautiful and well written. Its too bad I don't like the whole Clan thing.

At this point, the only real speculation left is "Why do Shadowrun books continue to have pre-order without a street date?" As far as I can tell, the Battletech line doesn't preorder hardcopy until a street date. After the SR4LA "experience", it would be wise to move to a conservative policy.

BlueMax

Traitor! ^^

I'm not sure when any of this discussion has ever been sane.

But at some point you have to accept that your point has been made and whether others accept it or not isn't up to you. Only time will tell.

That's where I'm at, with the periodic checkin to see what's new or what subject is being rehashed.

Every time there's some bit of interesting news there's usually some influx of new posters on both sides. Sometimes it might be a little heavier toward one or the other depending on the news, but in general it seems pretty even.

I've been around since 2002! 167 posts in 8 years. I think most of those are probably in this and related threads!

This will be my last post about copyright and such, because as was pointed out it's a quagmire. All I'm going to say is I know you think you need the law, and I know you think it's protecting your work, but I believe that it in fact is doing next to nothing to actually protect your work and that any protection the law might possibility give you could be worked out through contracts. I believe it's more likely the law would be used against you as a club by someone with more money than you to trying to catch you in a legal trap than it is for the law to protect you. And lastly, I think the laws being re-written to what you and I would agree to be sensible* is impossible because the politicians who write the laws have already been bought off to write the law the way it is now, and they're much more interested in screwing over small content creators, stifling creativity, and keeping as much as possible within their control as possible and leaving you and I SOL rather than protecting the rights of content creators. That's why I think it needs to go.

I do think you and I and most people would behave similarly in regards to someone's work. The big difference is I don't think you need a law to do it, and I think once you do create said law it's more likely to be used for harm than good.

*Because even though I don't think it's helping, there's so much more out there to fight than a law I probably wouldn't cross in the first place.



Someone's going to point this out so I will. Wouldn't it have had to have been at the printers before this debacle happened for it to be in print now? Not that I think CGL is going to go under or lose the license. In my opinion I think the company is going to pull through it and probably be better for it in the long run. Everything I've seen so far, in my opinion, show's a company that made a mistake, one that isn't even that unusual for smaller business, and now they don't have the cash flow they thought they would. Obviously there is going to be some scale back, they probably won't be able to do everything they'd hoped to as a business this year, but I think in a year or two they'll be back on track.



That's about where I am at too. It is interesting to read about specifics that have been dug up.

True, but then I usually talk too much.

For those lambasting M&P:
He's demonstrated a thorough knowledge of shadowrun, become a subject matter expert on tax evasion and the consequences thereof, always been tactful, and, well, his city was recently further underwater than New Orleans was. So, you know, give him a break. He's not one of the "bad guys."

With that, I wish all good night and good luck.

Perhaps IMR/CGL should take a page from FASA's "Improving Sales" book, and cut back on the product quality (I have several SR and BT books from the FASA era that ar also falling apart).

That's 'cause you're a mouse.

I hope they don't! TacOps and StratOps are books that I already handle gingerly because of their huge size! If quality was cut back on to FASA era quality, they would likely
already be falling apart!

But I know what you are talking about..I do not even touch my old "The Matrix" book, because it has pages that broke free of the binding like a month after I got the book
(which was 2 months after it came out).

Mine wore down from use, not because it was poorly made. I have owned 4 in my lifetime, and none had pages falling out. They were really well used, and friends beat them up more than I did. Heck that thing was in my highschool/college backpack. (and I was a claset gamer)

If you want to talk cheap books, you want to look at Games Workshop in the late 80's. I had two BloodBowl hardbacks that fell apart the moment I got them.

I hope CGL keeps whoever printed Masters and Minions. The print quality is amazing.

BlueMax

I carried mine in my hand because, basically, I didn't care. By the time I got to the point anyone would make fun of me for playing games at my age, I had already started listening to NOFX, Rancid, Bad Religion, etc. and had an attitude to match. I'm also notoriously hard on books (which is odd since I was literally raised in a bookstore...and not in that "I use 'literally' when I mean 'very'" way...my mother owned a new/used bookstore from when I was 5 until I was 21). I don't even have a copy of the 2nd Ed BBB at this point, even though I've owned at least three copies. I found my 3rd Ed when I was digging out stuff and it's about ready to lose its cover if I look at it funny. Same with my Street Samurai Catalog and Shadowtech. Thankfully, the rest are in pretty good shape for me to beat up reading while I'm jobless for a week.

The quality really wasn't that bad on the old FASA books. The bindings only broke on the BBB, which was well over 300 pages. All my sourcebooks just have the normal wear and tear from getting tossed around by a teenager. The only sourcebook I have that's losing pages due to binding or anything else is Prime Runners. I'm probably missing at least four or five pages at this point. For the paperback versions, I'd say the quality of the binding was actually slightly better under FASA. The page quality from FanPro was definitely better, but they feel more...I don't know exactly, but I don't think they'd've stood up to my 16 year old self. I don't have many of the CGL ones yet (waiting for my last check at my previous job to clear before I go shopping), but if my copy of Shadowtech is holding up between my flipping pages to get stat info while creating characters as well as my re-re-re-re-re-reading the shadowtalk sections to watch Smiling Bandit pwn everyone, I can't see how they could improve on that.

Want to talk about shitty binding? Track down whoever Roc was going with in the late 90s. We went through at least three bottles of rubber cement gluing the pages back into the cover on their paperbacks when people would trade them in. Get over 90 degrees (which is very easy to do in Gulf Coast area of Texas) and the glue binding the pages to the cover would completely detach. Like you've got the cover in one hand and all the pages of the book in the other. I am NOT exaggerating.

They seem to be running out new printers they can shaft, so they might have to start using the same printers again. Assuming they ever actually print anything again.

Given that Catalyst had printed products hit the streets in May and that Corp Guide has already been sent to the printers (as has another Shadowrun book), I am optimistic about the state of our printing.

Jason H.

I'm less than optimistic about the fact that you guys sloppily copied the Mitsuhama corporate profile from my draft.

And....there goes the bell for Round 412. I give it another three pages at max before we're on thread nine.

Naw, seems to be contained in the thread where J announced the PDF for now...we'll see in the morning.

It's all fun and games until someone loses and ear

And I'm less than optimistic that you're accusing me of stealing from your draft when I haven't even read your damn material yet.

Have the decency to confront me directly via AIM or email, Bobby, instead of through the forums.

I did send you an AIM message, Brandie, and I'm not accusing you of stealing anything. I think if anyone lifted anything, it was Jason and the corporate profile.

Bobby, for the public record, most of that information was in the wiki and I rewrote it based on the style of the Renraku chapter profile -- which YOU DID NOT TOUCH so far as I know.

I've got to get back to work now and will not discuss the rest of this on the forums so as not to violate TOS.

You know what I'm speculating on? How nice it'll be to get a real read on what new CGL material is like (if it should happen). You know, when we're long past the material where the accusations of copying material from former freelancers can be bandied about. That to me is the more accurate read on whether the new CGL material is worth it. Once all those folks who left no longer have any finger prints on it.

The Corporate Guide PDF that's online is after the various freelancers pulled their work from what I understand (and from the arguments/accusations being bandied about).

Only one freelancer, Bobby, pulled his work from Corporate Guide. The work of others remains in place.

Jason H.

Oh, I understand it's after Ancient and others pulled their his work. These are still products living under the shadow of the former freelancers work, most particularly when the accusations of copy/paste are flying about. I just not sure I see the current material coming out getting a balanced eye cast towards its quality, while still living under that shadow.

Edit: Corrected, based off Jason's statement.