Agreed.



It is possible. I also wonder if Topps is going to wait until the license actually expires before they start to seek others successor companies.



Could you enlighten us as to how the bidding process might work in regards to a property like Shadowrun?

My background is in a very different area then this one but speaking very broadly if the property was going out to tender it would take a while to go through a full tender process from first response through to presentation then award. Even at best case scenario that takes time, the shortest period I know of for a tender in my industry was just over a month from first paperwork to actual contract signing.

Its a much shorted time if you go with the incumbent supplier because all the legal T's and C's are already in place and agreed where as if you have a new supplier there is a expected amount of legal discussion which again could add time.

But again this is based on the assumption that they are going for a full tender process. It’s not unheard of even in companies bigger then Tops for the real decisions to be made in the pub or on the golf course rather then in a tender setting.

A very rough tender process would be

PQQ = Pre qualifying questions, short list of questions sent off to a number of suppliers to let you shortlist who you want to actually talk with (this stage most likely ignored as Tops will have already shortlisted any possible other suppliers)
ITT = Invitation to Tender, This is where you would put together your proposal lay out your operational model for how to supply the service / run the property and also give a chance to express the financials of the bid (%'s going to tops any profit sharing efficiencies that kind of thing)
Presentation = normally you get a chance to present to the client (Tops) to express yourself and answer questions (normally three to four possible max could just be incumbent and best other)
Award = depending on the procedure within the clients company this could take a while particularly with the legal’s involved internationally

Now given the closed nature of the industry and very much a ‘who knows who’ situation it might all jump straight to a presentation by a few key players and a decision in a couple of weeks. There are so many variables in the mix I’m worried that I might be muddying the water somewhat.

Hopefully SR will be treated well, whoever gets the license.

I am thinking the current agreement with CGL may be extended a year. Considering they allowed a company to sublicense for a 4th edition online character generator. COntract extension and modification is much easier than drawing up a new one.

Thanks for this. The trees plot makes a lot of sense and actually ties in very well.

I hadn't gotten around to reading Ghost Cartels yet. Love the format. Sort of a mix of Emergence (straight up metaplot elements) with Brainscan (adventure book allowing the runners to interact at a deep level with the metaplot). Easier to use than the storyling with adventure hooks and more fun to read than an adventure booklet.

This is actually how the guys who made NET Epic, based off of Games Workshop old Space Marine/Titan Legions game. The mechanics are the same, but they re-wrote the rules in their own language, which is how the game has never been "Cease & Desist"-ed.

Also how the guy who worte the Strange Aeons miniatures game gets away with using the basic rule's from Mongoose's Gangs of Mega-City One game.

I'm not going to reveal any terrible details about that plot, but I think I can confirm it has nothing to do with the trees in Ghost Cartels. At least, when I left. No idea what it might be now.

Though we used to have plans for those trees. Well, maybe not the trees, but related to the trees. Ghost Cartels was supposed to be the start to something ongoing. Not sure if it still is or not.

All of this makes me very sad. It's like knowing all the magician's secrets.

IMO, Keep it in the Family > CYA.

Here's hoping that -SHADOWRUN- comes out on top, too bad everyone can't be Bunnies and Rainbows, OOCly.

Man, did I have long term plans for that story, who knows though, I might still find a way to tell the full tale behind the Dream Seed.

I just hope it had nothing to do with "The Happening"

<rapidly rewrites computer files>

Not any more, it doesn't!

Jason H.

So, license still up in the air?

yes.

The Facebook Shadowrun says there might be some sort of Shadowrun related announcement tomorrow.

i'm still hoping to get the opportunity to talk to some of the german officials at nordcon . .

I don't believe they'll be able to tell you anything, afaik they have the license from CGL, not from Topps.

Yes, but CGL might be required to tell them. If a business partner asks to know whether or not they're allowed to print a book, you need to give them an answer. And given their concerns and relevance to the value of the property, it wouldn't be unreasonable, if everything is decided, for them to go to Topps and ask them "look. we have a licence from CGL to publish this stuff, is it legitimate or not?" and expect an answer. Not saying they'll say anything, but there's plenty of reason that they could.

K.

You say that you "need to give them an answer." Eventually that is true, but it might not be until til blanket announcement is made to all. You SHOULD tell your partners whats going on. Not telling your partners if you had lost the license or not, allowing them to continue to spend money as if you had kept it, is akin to taking money out of the bank accounts without telling your business partner. Oh, wait ...

Sorry, but I see no reason that German officials, or any other partnership for that matter, would be treated better than the partners that the Coleman's work directly with on a regular basis. Assuming that they'd do this out of some "need to do the right thing" is just not credit I can give to the heads of IMR/CGL at this time.

Well, the 6 stats thing doesn't really have anything to do with copyright, but yes, if you know what you are doing you can use the system from an existing game for your own material. Kenzerco, for example, decided they didn't like the CGL WotC released for 4ed, so went ahead and published 4ed material without signing it. However Kenzerco is run by an IP lawyer who knows exactly what you can and can't publish in this situation. If you aren't careful you can end up with some very high legal fees

Oh my dear god...I came back to the forums after an absence of a few years because some friends wanted me to run a Shadowrun campaign and WTF is going on?! The intrigue and speculation levels in this thread alone (I haven't even read the other 7) is better than some of the ones in shadowtalks! Yeesh. God, so many posts I wanted to respond to with something, but I forced myself to wait until I read the whole thing...now I can't remember it all. Just a lot of horrible misunderstanding of copyright law and what exactly work-for-hire is.

I will say this though. For whoever said there are tons of fans willing to just hop on-board and take over...read some fanfic on the web sometime. That's what happens when fans try to write. The results range somewhere between "That's not half bad" to "OMFG I JUST TORE OUT MY OWN EYES FROM THE HORROR!!!!" Professional writing is not easy. Hell, I've been a Shadowrun fan since I was 13 years old. I'm friggin' THIRTY at this point. I'm a fairly decent writer. However, I wouldn't dream of trying to freelance for Shadowrun. Why? Because I've spent the last 8 years writing screenplays almost exclusively. Writing prose, for me, is a difficult and long process which drives me insane, and I haven't written anything game related other than my old posts on here and notes for my GM/DM/STing various games, which is hardly the same thing as writing for publication, even just an adventure. I also have a day job that I can't quit because I have fixed bills, which means even a 3 day turnaround on rewrites would be impossible for me most times, let alone the one hour turnaround someone said they were asked for at one point.

As far as the battle on the freelancers, I'm on the freelancer's side on this one. Maybe it has something to do with being in their shoes quite a few times, but I will say this...this is not a battle over work that was done and not paid for. I've got something like 150 megs of stuff I've written I've never gotten paid a dime for (all in .txt, .doc, etc formats where a 300 page book is only a couple hundred kilobytes). If a freelancer is upset they worked and didn't get paid, they're in the wrong business because manuscripts can get rejected for almost any reason. The problem is not getting paid for work that has been published.

Let's use the time-honored widgets as an example. You make widgets. You provide this widgets to Company X. Company X then uses these widgets to create something and sells it, making a profit. Woohoo! Oh, wait, Company X hasn't paid you for the last shipment of widgets and are asking for another one. Are you REALLY going to give them more widgets when they haven't paid you for the widgets they've already used to make money?

This actually happens in ANY industry. Whether the widgets are writing, groceries for a restaurant, custom-printed magnets, a pallet of ceramic tile, or anything. The supplier supplies the goods. After a certain period of time, that bill has to be repaid. Rinse, repeat. If a supplier isn't paid on time, they will either suspend delivery until the bill is paid or they will reduce the line of credit. The easiest way to tell if a company is on its way out is to call its suppliers and ask how much credit they have. If it's 30 days or more, the company's doing great. If they're at a week -- or worse, COD -- that company is on its way out and is probably scrambling.

In the publishing industry, the freelancers are usually the ones shortchanged first. Then it's artists. Then the printer. The reason it's done that way is that the freelancers can fuck you the least immediately. Even if every freelancer you has pulls their copyright for works you haven't paid for, odds are those are ones you're still typesetting or proofing. The ones coming off the printers most likely have already been paid off since the final draft of the writing and editing was done on those at least a year ago (at least for traditional print -- the timeline may be shorter in gaming books). The printers are the LAST ones you stiff money because they can kill any income immediately. If it's not in the distributor's warehouse, you're never going to have the book If you don't have the book, you don't have a product and you're dead.

The reasoning is the same as people who overdraft their bank accounts or get those payday loans or "direct deposit advances". Take a short-term financial risk in hopes that you can keep yourself afloat long enough to make more money and pay it back. The unfortunate part is how many times that will fail.

Oh, and if I see one more person say "guilty until proven innocent" in referring to a civil suit in the US, I'm going to get my lawyer cousin to smack you upside the head with a cluehammer. That's for CRIMINAL trials. Same thing with "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a CIVIL case (which my cousin has to spend half an hour lecturing jurors on in this country because they do NOT understand the concept), it's about "preponderance of the evidence". If I sue you for something, I don't have to show enough proof that shows my side is right beyond a reasonable doubt. I just have to have more and/or stronger evidence than you do that I am owed damages under the law. If I have a hand-written note I made on a post-it last night and you have nothing at all, I win because I have more evidence.

For the record, I have never worked in the game publishing industry and anything I said above comes from my personal experience/research and that of people I know. I don't know anything about the gaming industry and everything above is about the publishing industry in general or just plain old Economics 101 (which, BTW, the best primer I ever got on how economics work was the old Corporate Shadowfiles book...shame my copy's falling apart)

<pat pat> Welcome back Abstruse. Care for a freebie?

Ooooh, do NOT encourage the poor guy. A friend of mine and I decided, when OGL was launched back with D&D 3e, to start trying to come up with something to sell online cheap. There is a LOOOOOOT of murky legal waters when you have a company that's flat-out SAYING you can use their IP. The problem comes in exactly what you can use and what you can't. There's a reason why it's Quickness and not Dexterity and Body not Constitution in Shadowrun. The more you can modify your work, the better.

And the reason that 6 was the standard for so long was because no one saw reason to increase it until White Wolf came along. The standard six attributes cover pretty much all the basics for what you need to know about a character's attributes (in the non-game-term sense). Sure, Shadowrun 1-3 had Reflex/Essense/Magic, but they weren't "real" attributes like Str, Qui, etc. were.

There's a long history of one gaming company taking good ideas from others. D&D was the basis for all the ones to come later. Mechwarrior and Shadowrun (as well as the early licensed FASA stuff) added a skill system and the infamous chargen table, which White Wolf expanded on and D&D 3rd Ed switched to instead of the god-awful proficiency system they had before for non-combat stuff. White Wolf did the 9 attributes, dice pool of Attribute + Skill, and (with NWoD) the fixed target number. SR4 took those and worked it into their system as well as borrowing the Edge attribute from Mechwarrior (replacing the old Dice Pools from earlier SR editions). When Magic: The Gathering came out, there were at least a dozen games I remember that had almost cookie-cutter game mechanics even if they made no sense in context of that game (some martial arts game from 93 or 94 comes to mind immediately, even if the name for it doesn't). D&D 4e took the powers system from Everquest/WoW, both of which were modeled extensively off pen-and-paper RPGs for their mechanics.

But remember...and this is important...every single one of those companies had lawyers who were well paid to make sure that they were on the up-and-up when using material that was pioneered with another system.

Thanks...I got at least half those off your site already -- went there even before I came to Dumpshock Hadn't looked up the thread on those yet.

Sorry about what's going on, but glad to see your passion for the game and the world has (so far at least) let you overcome the drama. You're one of the few people out there that can thoroughly school me on the Shadowrun metaplot and I'd hate to lose you from the community altogether over corporate crap.

This whole mess is really embarassing. I think the worse thing about it is that its made the fanbase incredibly hostile, petty, and combative. Sure theres always arguments and they get heated but at least those arguments are about the game not people attacking other posters simply for the sake of attacking other posters, accusing them without basis, and otherwise just being really cruddy all while trying to blame it on a company that made some serious mistakes. But mistakes that don't have anything to do with all the attacks and mudslinging going on.

If anything destroys Shadowrun because of this fiasco, its the fans and the fans alone.

Because it was the fans that sucked the publishing company dry.

Amen brother, I recently acquired hardbook versions of SR4A corebook, Arsenal (thank you people who suggested it!) and Augmentation. Sure, they are pretty books, but ultimately I did it so I could run CGL into the ground, because I hate them and this game.

How are posts in this thread responsible for Loren Coleman having withdrawn hundreds of thousands of dollars from a company whilst failing to pay people who actually wrote the products for over a year, for instructing members of staff to falsify royalty reports to Topps, for banning one of the most prolific writers for 4th Edition from contributing to the game, for failing to pay monies owed to associated companies, for failing to pay multiple print companies, for a production schedule that was slippier than an oiled newt and for alienating most of the people who actually wrote 4th by first losing them and then promising others they will be paid for re-writing the originators work? (I'd give 50/50 on the payment happening, right now).

I've spent at least a couple of hundred pounds on 4th Edition products. I don't see how my being critical of CGL in this thread makes "the destruction of Shadowrun" my fault. But let's be clear about this - CGL losing the licence does not mean the "destruction of Shadowrun". With a bit of luck, it might actually be a good thing.

K.

Im pretty sure he was talking about the fan base not the companies. Its blatantly hostile with people attacking people especially new people left and rite.

Peace and be very cool indeed.

You're off there. Most of the time when there is an actual arguement, it is usually involving unrelated personal bits. Rules debates are generally pretty chill. The fans are not going to destroy Shadowrun if they care enough to come here and argue about it. If they care that much, I'd say it's the opposite.

And I'll thank you not to call our users "petty".

Dumpshock has not exactly been my Happy Place in recent times, but there's no way I'm going to say that it or the fans are harming the game. People here are passionate fans, which generally is a good thing for a game to have. They're strongly opinionated fans, which is also fine. I'd never expect all the fans to agree with everything that anyone who releases Shadowrun product does; I'd certainly never expect them not to be critical. Their thoughts and criticisms can be extremely useful.

One other thing, though--Dumpshock is a great collection of Shadowrun knowledge and passion, but it's not the entire fanbase. It's a good-sized group of people who care about Shadowrun, but it's not necessarily representative of the whole of Shadowrun fandom. It's a slice. Not all fans react the way Dumpshock fans react--both for good and for ill

Jason H.

Not if there post count is below 1000 apparintly.

I remember when Knasser was new, and had useful thoughts and criticisms. I remember a lot of people that have come and gone with useful things to say immediately. I've also seen a number of recent new people come in with rough attitudes. I've seen some of those mellow, some leave, and some not really change much. So have a lot of other people. That's why there's so much sensitivity to it at the moment. Please don't add to it by taking one statement out of context, intentionally or not.

No, yours too! Just because I don't agree with all your conclusions doesn't mean I don't appreciate you sharing them. I was interested enough to engage your points, which is part of what forum posting is all about. Honestly, I almost never look at anyone's post count, because I'm more interested in what they say than in how long they've been here. You've been given some good advice about posting style that will help as you continue to share your thoughts.

Jason H.

Things have become a bit heated in these threads. Dynamo Dave, I took your post to be meaning that the "destruction of Shadowrun" would be the fault of people arguing in threads like this. For the reasons I gave, I reckon these threads are insignificant in comparison to the actions of CGL management. If you meant that heated threads like this are destructive to the fan base, then yes, I suppose they are and I owe you an apology which I'll happily make now. You see many of us are extremely resentful of CGL's management and, imo, rightly so. Some take CGL's part and respond to such criticism quite angrily. Thus argument is pretty much inevitable. Given that the status quo is that CGL has the licence, gets away with its behaviour and potentially damages the Shadowrun line, arguing for people to stop complaining / drop such threads as these, by default tend to mean supporting CGL's behaviour. Hence when you make a comment that threads like these are destructive, there's a tendency to view that as stating people shouldn't complain about CGL's behaviour. Hopefully that explains where I was coming from.

I've just re-read my post and I don't think there's anything in there that could be construed as directed against you personally, it's what I saw as saying our arguing was going to be the thing that damaged Shadowrun rather than the long list of actual destructive actions, to which I objected. Still, I was pretty forceful in my post so please accept my apologies if I launched off on one. No offense is meant.

As General Pax says: "Peace and be cool". He's not-so-subtly quoting how I often sign off my posts here. Such a nuanced fellah, that one.

Peace and be cool,

Khadim.

Hmmm, I like to think I still do have useful thoughts and criticisms.

K.

Nah. It's a fact of life that once a person becomes a veteran of a certain forum, (s)he's said everything that could possibly said at least once and all that person can do is reiterate the same points over and over again using a slightly different sentence structure. It's called "Curse of the Interwebs!"

(running away and hiding now.)
@=)

Or it could just mean that folks would like to speculate about the future of the game line without the arguments that have already been covered in 7 prior threads. Sort of like the fact that there isn't two all-inclusive factions/sides in this "argument." There's also folks who are rather unhappy with CGL, but also are really unhappy with the torch and pitchfork reaction of this fanbase. *waves* But I forgot, we don't exist, since there is only the "right (CGL should burn!) side" and the "you're an apologist!" side.

That there are people who don't fit into Category A or Cateogory B, doesn't mean that there aren't people who do. I said there are people who are opposed to anyone condemning CGL, responding to any such criticism with quite angry sounding posts condemning the poster for what they said or saying they shouldn't say it, but never substantiating anything incorrect in their post. If you feel that you aren't in such a category, maybe I wasn't talking to you. Although to be fair, you did just respond to my criticisms with an angry sounding post that didn't actually refute anything I said.

K.

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

Peace Khadim...

May you return fully recharged and ready to go...

Keep the Faith

Be back soon, we need people like you around here to be a counterweight to people like me ^^

Come back soon knass. I know you and I don't speak often, but you were a thoughtful and coherent poster and always had something interesting to say.

May your inner calm be filled again, I for one look forward to your return

Knasser, please do come back. You're one of the reasons I keep coming back to the forums.

Knasser, please come back when you have recharged. You will be missed.

I've been holding my fire on the rash of new posters which all have, apparently, had the same agenda - come in here guns blazing to point blame and fingers at everyone except LLC/IMR/CGL. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was a well orchestrated attack, designed to confuse the issue and drive off certain voices. Similar to an "astroturf" event or a coordinated troll/flamebait event. I have no proof that this is the case, but it sure reminds me of an infowar ops.

-M&P

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned the first part. Because I was starting to think you were becoming a proponent of the "there's only two sides here" crowd. And that was a bit disappointing, as I didn't really put you there previously. Heck, half of your posts alone (along with DE's) swung me out of the supporting CGL camp. It was a bad reaction on my part, more towards previous posters than you. My apologies on that.

Being a Player from 1st edition on through all of Shadowruns Incarnations, and having picked up all of 4th eds books...........The Fan base is highly pissed that some weasel has pulled a Decipher on CG and hope the creep gets flayed for it. But I have nothing against the company. End of Story

Ever notice how there isn't a whole lot of Palladium or Rifts fan material, websites, etc? Yeah, Kevin Siembieda likes to lean toward the strict side of the copyright law. Although it didn't effect me, some people could talk about how TSR was before they folded. Games Workshop is known for smacking around their fans with copyright threats because they can on a regular basis. The point is this site very well could be built on a swamp. But in general, everything is somehow built on a swamp in that regard. Heck most people's lives are built on a swamp, legally, since thousands of laws are passed every year for everything and no one knows what they are. Someone sufficiently motivated can usually find something to pin on anyone. Bonus points if you can get judges who are prejudiced against you. (And trust me, most of them still think RPGs are satan worship thanks to the old D&D kerfuffle back in the 80's.)

You forgot myth 11. Copyright does not cause more harm than good
Well, that's my opinion anyway.


Very true. Allow me to present my guide to copyright law, and often most law in general.

M1=Your money
M2=Their money

If M1 > M2, then you win!* (Condition 1)
If M2 > M1, then you lose!* (Condition 2)
If M1 = M2, then engage in protracted eternal legal battle which lowers M1 and M2 at unknown variable rates. Continue process until condition 1 or condition 2 is true.

*If M1 or M2 is sufficiently large enough and the opposing value is incredibly small in comparison, then the side that has more money has probably won before the case even started by hiring a politician to write the law in their favor to begin with.