Honestly, apply the game rules as written unless they commit the cardinal sin of slowing down play or making things less fun. Don't concern yourself too much with "realism" as this is a game where the terminator regularly has a shoot out with Casper. Anyone insisting that something makes sense or does not remind them that the path goes both ways.

Play, have fun, don't overthink, and don't try and game the rules.

Good advice, but anathema to most Dumpshockers.

There is also a valid concern to have the game rules clearly understood. Games do better if when Joanna Gamer moves, she integrates more easily into her new SR group.

Its hard for her to do this if the rules are ambiguous.

If the person does not game, like Joseph Storyteller, the rules are really unimportant. Joseph Storyteller can move from group to group without the hindrance of rules.

BlueMax

The problem with these rules is their fairly unambiguous, not as cut and dry as they could be but I think the majority opinion is that stuff that reduces armor also reduces the armor granted by ITNW. Some people don't like this interpretation and that's fine, but it's not a problem with the rules.

Its hilarious that you base your whole argument on the fact that tanks can never be taking 4 points of damage, but totally ingnore the fact that no tank also can't have a body+armor pool of 16 that buys four hits, somethink with that low armor+body isn't a tank.

That part about buying hits is nothing but an example on how that works not a rule that makes vehicle armor function completdly different then any other armor

There are multiple reasons that prove it works this way, I've spelled them out in this thread. The example in the text is an example of how vehicle damage works, not how buying hits works. The example just suggests you *use* the buying hits method.

Regardless, I don't care enough to argue the point any further. The text is there and it says what it says but that doesn't mean that anybody has to use it. I'm not telling anybody how they should use or read the rules.

The majority thinking something is so doesn't make it correct, that's a fallacy.

See the problem here is, I agree that those rules are fairly unambiguous. In fact I think the immunity entry is trying very hard with all those quotation marks around armor and similes to make sure you don't read it the way you are. And yet, in my opinion, you're still mangling the text as written to suit your preconcieved notions.

So, in summary, ITNW doesn't suffer from armor penetration. Some people don't like this interpretation and that's fine, but it's not a problem with the rules.

Errr question, if your read is correct why wouldn't they have put a one line entry in. "ITNW does not count as armor for any armor reduction purposes".

You really havent. your only proof is that tanks cant be taking 4 damage and as i just said tanks also cant have a resistance pool of 16.

Because it works the other way around, they need to specify it DOES work (like the Hardened Armor entry does). Also IMO they even did say it doesn't count as armor by constantly putting armor in goddamn quotation marks! What do you think those are in there, just for decoration? The whole entry screams "when comparing DV to see if it bypasses this, this is NOT normal armor" and then they had to specifically say that for damage resistance tests it IS normal armor. Why would that sentence be included if it's normal armor all along?

Also if your read is correct why wouldn't they have put a one line entry in, "Spirits have Hardened Armor equal to Force x2, except against spells and weapon foci". Why create a whole new concept of protection if it's identical to the other one?

This argument is stupid since the only reply is (including the original post in this thread) "lol it says (see Hardend Armor) therefore every weakness HA has it must have". It's a parenthetical example of a similar concept and that very sentence then goes on to clarify what the actual rule for ITNW is, and it doens't mention armor penetration what-so-ever. If you read the Immunity rule literally (as biccat has painstakingly taken apart and shown) it does not include armor pen. As an added bonus it's stupid fluff-wise because a HMG with APDS bullets, acid capsule rounds or SnS shouldn't rape spirits (or, lol, a sonic rifle completely ignoring ITNW).

Actually the fluff is wonderfully non-commital on the answer, spirits have bene shown being taken out with firepower including other ammo, they've also been shown to be punched to death by madmen, I suppose that doesn't fit "Your vision" ™ of the spirits. Did the connotation ever occur to you that perhaps they were using quation marks to differentiate the fact that something acts as armor but isn't physical armor.

You seem to fail to concider that maybe the armor is in quotes as that entry is for power immunity not ITNW and term armor makes no sense for many thinks you can have that power like age.


Ofcource the immunity rules have to say that it added to resistance test as "normal" armor, becouse nothink else in the entry says anythink that would give the reder an impression that that would be the case.


You do realise that entry for ITNW isn't much longer then that.
Also they didn't add a whole new concept just for ITNW, immunity power is used for many other thinks too.

SR needs a Questions of the Week section on its web page. This would be a great example. I wonder which of the current writers is the rules dictator.

BlueMax

"Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as normal, rolling
Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does not exceed the
vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied.

Note that since many vehicles will have large Body dice pools, gamemasters are encouraged
to use the trade-in-dice-for-hits rule (4 dice equals 1 hit) to simplify
tests. Your average tank, for example, will automatically get 4 hits on
a Body Test by trade in, so there is no point in rolling unless the hits
needed are higher than 4."

Modified DV=DV of weapon + 1 point of damage per net success on the attack roll. (Does not include bonus damage from a narrow burst)
It has nothing to do with the resulting damage resistance roll.

Step 1:Roll attack dice.
Step 2: Roll defense dice.
Step 3: Determine if physical or stun by comparing the modifed DV of the attack to the Armor modified by the AP of the weapon.
Step 4: Roll Damage resistance of Bod + Modified armor. (If a vehicle is taking stun, just ignore it and move along)

The note is to say that for example a drone with bod of 4 and modified armor of 12 can pretty much ignore an attack that causes 4DV. Fact of the matter is the example in the book is stating the obvious (any attack causing just 4DV won't be enogh to cause physical damage anyway).


Back OT though: The crux of both arguments is if the armor bonus provided by immunity to normal weapons is affected by AP. I'd say yes it would by RAW as all armor is affected by AP. To date there have been no exceptions explicitly made to this.


ON S&S balance: note that the cost of a round of S&S is almost (AFB) as much as APDS. Also the only weapons benifitting from the damage are pistols and machine pistols.
Other weapons loose damage. I find the concept of them a bit silly, but remind myself--it's future technology.

I can't speak for everyone but for me the cost of a round is irrelevant (up to a point) as long as it kills the bad guy faster, and therefore keeps me alive. That's the problem with stick and shock, their readily available wheras APDS is still somewhat of a hassle by it's availability code.

Actually, this is addressed (at least, someone punching a spirit to death). See "Attacks of Will" in Street Magic.

I'm aware of attacks of will, the point i'm trying to make is once we get into spirits are immune to this or that on a case by case basis we can expand that sort of logic to dragons, unicorns and other sorts. Where is a line drawn? I'll agree it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for spirits to be affected by contact toxins but since bug spirits are affected by insecticide and fire spirits by water there's already a precedent in place.

What? There's no case by case, it's an exception based thing: Spirits are immune to EVERYTHING except Magic (spells, weapons foci, paranormal critters, attacks of will).

Also Fire Spirits are hurt by water because that's their Allergy, and the rules for Allergy specifically state it bypasses ITNW. There's no prcedent there for you.

And furthermore, fluff-wise, spirits aren't wearing any damn armor. Hardened Armor refers to physical critter armor, a carapace or dragon scales, and so on. An APDS round punching through a dragon scale could make sense in the fluff since it's a physical object, punching throw a spirit's MAGICAL ephermal form? Yea, ok.

No their not they just have forcex2 armor against everythink except magic, a big difference.

Spirits are, to my memory, the only things in the books with Immunity to Normal Weapons, non-spirit creatures get hardened armor instead, so nothing with spirits sets any precedent for any other type of critter. This uniqueness of spirits also supports Immunity to Normal Weapons behaving differently than Hardened Armor, given that if it just worked like Hardened Armor, spirits would be given that power rather than making a special Immunity just for them(as Lanlaorn already pointed out).

i would say its much easier to give them immuty based power, then hardened armor and then start listing exceptions(ie.thinks that bypass it).

The problem is that the rules do not say what you think they say...

Keep the Faith

I think we can agree that it's both a bad paragraph and a terrible example (stats all wrong, etc.), but that's no reason to get silly.

The funny thing is that the Quotes around the text highlight that you are using the actual rules for Hardened Armor; They get twice their Force Rating in armor (Because it isn't NORMAL Armor) against anything that is not magical, and then you treat it as Hardened Armor for the resolution of the attack... which means that they reduce the Armor Rating by the Armor Piercing to arrive at the Modified Armor Rating that is compared aginst the Damage. If the Damage is higher, continue on to the Damage Resolution Phase, if it isn't, ignore the damage and move along...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

I'd still rather just treat it as Hardened Armor only in the self that there's an 'ignore' effect, and skip the AP. It's more magical.
In all seriousness, I think in the specific case of S&S should be that it only affects biologicals, not spirits or drones/vehicles. I mean, the latter doesn't even have a stun track, bleh.

Truth be told, we never use spirits in my games anyway, cuz they're lame.

Except that SnS is a nonlethal round, so it WILL have a lower availability compared to a Armor Piercing Round... it will be much easier to get hold of a Shock round than a Cop Killer Round for a very specific reason... Thiongs that are known to be highly effective at KILLING security forces will be much harder to get than something that will at best only stun them... This line of reasoning has been true throughout the ages, whether it is Access to Military Melee Weapons during the Middle Ages or Military Grade Armor Piercing Rounds in today's age...

Keep the Faith

Though the power is called IMMUNITY, they are not IMMUNE, they are just more resistant to things that are not magical... that is all (And the Rules completely bare this out)... MORE RESISTANT does not Equal IMMUNITY...

Keep the Faith

That probably depends on whether the result is a massive string of robberies (and possibly dead-post-stun bodies) where S&S cartridges litter the ground.

Hardened Armor does not Provide 2x Force in Armor... Immunity to Normal Weapons Does, and then it is treated as Hardened Armor for Resolution... Nothing special about it other than doubling the Armor agains Normal Weapons, Which Hardened Armor does not do on its own, which is why they created a seperate Distinction, and then use the same rules...

Keep the Faith

Using that Argument, though, is a trap... if you are using Shock Ammo, your intent is generally not to kill the target... why add on a possible life sentence (or worse) for each downed (and then Murdered) target if you are captured... not everyone is out there just wasting anything that gets in their way... that route quickly leads to a manhunt that ends in your death...

Keep the Faith

I said 'possibly', and in parentheses. Besides, the *whole* point is that you're always using S&S, regardless of your intent, because it's always better, for everything. Nearly.

And it is 4x as expensive as normal rounds as well... not everyone can afford large amounts of SnS rounds...

Got a character that just crested 300 Karma... he typically keeps a Clip of SnS for Emergency purposes (Spirits typically)... But, Because I tend to prefer Non-lethal means when I run, I primarily use DMSO/Narcojet for my primary weapon (Hammerli 620s), and either APDS/AV for Drones and Vehicles if/when needed (Ares SMG).

Keep the Faith

DMSO/Narcoject is cheaper than S&S? Nevermind APDS/etc. being almost the same price.

So, you're right: S&S is a *massive* 400% the cost of regular ammo. …which means it's a *measly* 80¥ per 10 shots. Gel/DMSO/Narco rounds are only 2100% of regular ammo, after all.

Anyway, if you can't afford ammo, you're a bad runner. Go hungry!

Okay, I know that this is a bit off topic here, but hey its Dumpshock. I was just wondering, do you think that spirits should suffer secondary affects (such as your aforementioned 'fish flop' from electrical damage) if the source was magical intead of mundane?

For example, you suggest possibly ignoring the knockdown chance from the electrical damage of a taser. However, would the same be true of an adept using electrical hands from the power (elemental strike I think its called)?

Sure, it's magic. Those poor melee adepts need some love, anyway.

So true. The only time it really came up for us, the adept got his hands going with the lightning to draw attention of the spirit away from the mundanes. It worked, the spirit tried to come for him, but before he could get to his next pass the mage came up and spirt-bolted the spirit into oblivion.

SnS is expensive... it is more expensive then Explosive, Gel, APDS, Tracer, Stealth Tag Trackers, Subsonic, and yes, even the Tazer Darts (Just Sayin')... Yes, it is cheaper than AV, EX Explosive and Flechette rounds, and even cheaper than my Favored DMSO/Narcojet mix, but that is why I do not have vast quantities of any of them, I have far more "Regular" rounds than any other ammunition type... Why? Because they are cheap...

There are other things to spend your money on in the Shadows than Specialty Ammunition... Drones, Parties, Cars, Parties, Drugs, Parties, Women, Parties, Parties, and, oh yeah, Parties... Not all runners play by the same rules, calling them bad runners because they prefer women over specialized ammo is way out of line... I just might have to have my Triad Connections pay you a little visit there...

Keep the Faith

Oh, I don't know, In my expereince, Melee Adepts are pretty potent in their own right... and never discount the utility of a Missile Adept either... I have seen many a Missile Adept that has more juice than Sniper Rifles, Assault Rifles, Shotguns, and yes, even Assault Cannons. their range may not reach out to 1500 Meters, but at 100 Meters and closer, they can put all small arms to shame in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

A runner who runs out of good ammo because they blew it on a party is, by definition, a bad runner.

Ha! The selling feature of those weapons *is* their range. 100m is practically melee by comparison.

Hah... I will up your Bad Runners with a "Can't top my 125,000 No-Holds barred Blow out before the Big Run on the Zero Zone, because you may not be comming back" party...


Seriously Though...

When is the last time you were in a secure facility where you had an uninterrupted line of fire that was greater than 20 Meters? Or even 10 meters? Not too many of those for me in the last 3 years or so... I can count the runs that took place completely outside, with uninterrupted lines of Sight, where My Sniper Rifle had the advantage because of my gained anonymity due to range, on exactly one hand... and still have fingers left over... 100 Meters is a great deal of range, and when most (RL) gun fights actually take place within 10 meters, having a weapon that can reach out to 500 meters and beyond often gets innocents killed... I do not know about your games, but My primary character takes great pains to minimize collateral damage as much as he can, and when, statistically, shooters miss more often than they hit, that is a lot of potential collatoral damage...

Just Sayin...

Keep the Faith

Depends on your runs, yes. If they all take place underwater, the optimal gear is different.

Nope, every runner I ever met was a sociopath who didn't know noncombatants existed. (Not sarcasm.) Besides, by RAW, do bullets ever cause collateral damage?

Yeah... Underwater Sucks big ones... And the SCUBA training takes a while too... always hated that; Besides I have an unreasoning, pathological, fear of Sharks...

Really? No one that actually considered their actions on the environment/Non-Combatants? Wow... Sorry to hear that... Thoguh I do kinfd of know what you mean... I have run into a few of those in my life... *Shakes Head*

As for RAW... It does not concern itself with environmental issues of combat unless you are blowing the hell out of them... However, just because it does not talk about the phgysics of missed shots does not mean that there are no consequences for those missed shots... I take great pains to not give my GM reasons to start large scale manhunts for me because I irresponsibly killed a bunch of kids in an orphanage because I did not care whether my shots impacted the target, or whether they went throuigh walls and killed innocents on the other side... This does not mean my GM is a prick about such things, but that I, as a Character, do not want that set of consequences on my conscience...

Maybe that is just the way that I play my character, but all the characters in my team understand this, and if it was ever blatantly thrown in my face that they had no concern for such things (or that they did it for S's&G's), I would probably eliminate them on the spot... I have come close a time or two over the last Campaign Arc (3 Years)...

Keep the Faith

There's a problem with your example. If it's an attack with 4 DV against a (modified) armor of 12, then it would get caught by the step 4 parenthetical, so there's no need for the "Body Test".

Additionally, why would the book say "Body Test" instead of "damage resistance test" or "body + modified armor test" for the 4 hits? Unlike the ITNW example, however, I think this is quite clearly in error. It appears to be contradictory to the "Vehicle Armor" section just a few pages back (at the beginning of the Vehicle Combat section).

ah.
a) 4DV vs 12 Ballistic/Impact = stun damage because 12 > 4.
b) trucks ignore stun.
c) exit.

if(attack.DV <= defend.bArmor)
then(exit)
else(body test)

Tymeaus, I'm just saying, you're inventing rules and then saying people are wrong not to play by them.

Anyway, yes, if you never go outdoors, you don't need a sniper rifle. That doesn't say anything about the general value (and selling point) of sniper rifles.

What if its 4 DV against 3 Armor and 13 Body?
Hmmmm?

THAT doesn't get caught by the step 4 parenthetical.

But it does get caught by the 4:1 dice trade.

In any case, the 4 DV example was a bad example in the book (which we already knew because it is impossible to deal 4 DV with any gun).

So at no point in the last 3+ years has there been an official dev answer to this quandary?

in our game I go back and forth.

the notion of disrupting spirits with SnS is so wrong on so many levels. Creatures of quicksilver and magic struck low by bullets that work like a taser? yuck.

YET, per RAW, it seems fairly valid to me to interpret the rules that way.

My players and I are equally confused and dismayed by this.

perhaps just getting rid of SnS is the solution.

Nah, just say 'S&S doesn't work on spirits'. Done.

you're probably right yeramayahu.

still left with the "man, that's dumb" taste in my mouth re: laying spirits low with little taser bullets.

I'll start by saying I can understand where others have gotten the interpretation that ITNW ignores AP. I don't agree, but I can see how you can arrive at that conclusion. Also, I have to echo the earlier point about doing what's right for your table and game experience. Who cares if it's right or wrong so long as it's fun.

That said, I'm going to argue a few points.


Actually they do not need to specify that AP does work. They DO however need to specify that it DOES NOT.


This means unless a spell, power, item, etc, explicitly grants an exemption it is, by RAW, using these rules in ranged or melee combat (I can't think of any physical combat that isn't one of those two, and we are only looking at physical combat in the case of ITNW). The very first heading under that section is the rules on Armor. And those rules include Armor Penetration.

The description of Immunity must be read not just as a description of Immunity To Normal Weapons, but rather as Immunity. The term Armor as a game mechanic term does not encompass all the possible Immunities, such as Age, Poisons, Toxins, Mind Control, what-have you. As such, the writers used "Armor Rating" to denote a mechanic that CAN be used as either Armor or as a Rating used in other manners, such as with Age.


In this statement they once again use the term Armor, without quotes. Without quotes, Armor has a defined game mechanic associated with it, found on SR4 p160 which is directly beneath the quote I provided saying that unless otherwise noted the following rules apply.

Also, for clarity's sake they should have used the term "Effect" in place of "Damage" in the description as not all forms of Immunity are granted towards things that cause damage. Consider Immunity to Age... where's the "Damage"? Obviously we use the rating vs. rating, but really the misuse of terms creates confusion, and this power needs far less of that. Truly, the whole thing needs a re-write.