Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mäx
So there's not much point on playing anythink other then summoners in missions as spirits make short work of pretty much anythink a security can trowh at them except an other mage and couple of spirits + the mage should beat an npc mage. Who need sammies when you can have spirit that cant be damaged.
Bull
That's not even close to the case for Missions, honestly...

For one, magical security tends to be in place a lot of times. For two, bad guys are smart, and use the same types of ammo the players usually use. AP cuts through Immunity pretty easily. Dropping -4 onto a spirits armor, and even a basic heavy pistol has a base Damage code of 5. You can stage that up with hits fairly easily. The only spirits that are even going to likely be an issue for an average goon/sec guard with a heavy pistol is a Force 6+, and that's only if they roll poorly. Throw in some burst or even auto fire, and unless you're pulling out force 8's or better (Damn difficult, even for a focused summoner), Hardened doesn't even become a factor.

I'm playing a mage in my regular Shadowrun game, and I use spirits a lot, and we've had them thrown at us a few times as well. I don't think Immunity has once actually stopped anyone's attacks outright. All it ever does is give the spirit a few points of armor to actually soak an attack, so it doesn't go down in a single hit.

Bull
Mäx
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 5 2010, 12:06 AM) *
That's not even close to the case for Missions, honestly...

For one, magical security tends to be in place a lot of times. For two, bad guys are smart, and use the same types of ammo the players usually use. AP cuts through Immunity pretty easily.

wobble.gif
Whut, you just gave out a ruling that in missions AP has no effect on the immunity.
Meaning you need 13 points of damage to harm a force 6 spirit and you can have multiple of those bound at chargen whit few services each.
Yerameyahu
It seems clear from the rest of the paragraph that he *didn't* say that at all. smile.gif
tagz
No, I think you misread him Max.

He said the Armor is applied, then modified. So Immunity armor at 12 hit with an AP -4 would result in a Immunity armor 8, needing 9DV to hurt.

What I THINK you read was that the Immunity armor is applied, at 12, so you need to do at least 13DV, THEN AP -4 would result in 8 dice for armor soak. This is not what he meant to say (at least I think not from the last statement).
Mäx
QUOTE (tagz @ Jul 5 2010, 12:17 AM) *
No, I think you misread him Max.

He said the Armor is applied, then modified. So Immunity armor at 12 hit with an AP -4 would result in a Immunity armor 8, needing 9DV to hurt.

What I THINK you read was that the Immunity armor is applied, at 12, so you need to do at least 13DV, THEN AP -4 would result in 8 dice for armor soak. This is not what he meant to say (at least I think not from the last statement).

So the first post in this topic is right?
Thats good, bulls post just really seemed to be against that.
And your correct on whow you think i read it.
Bull
Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Armor Piercing, electric effects, etc all still effect the Spirits armor, but only after it's been doubled for Immunity.

But keep in mind this isn't an official CGL ruling... This is just for Missions, so that we have an even baseline for GMs to run with for Convention and Open Play games. If/when this gets clarified by CGL, we'll adjust to match the official ruling, of course.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 4 2010, 06:36 PM) *
Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Armor Piercing, electric effects, etc all still effect the Spirits armor, but only after it's been doubled for Immunity.


Technically, Bull, spirits don't have armor aside from the Immunity.

QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 4 2010, 05:06 PM) *
Throw in some burst or even auto fire, and unless you're pulling out force 8's or better (Damn difficult, even for a focused summoner), Hardened doesn't even become a factor.


A force 4 spirit is no more susceptible to burst fire than a force 10 is. Burst fire doesn't add to the modified DV, it only means that it does more damage after the conversion to stun.

Eg. a DV 6 AP +0 attack with full auto bounces off a F4 spirit just as it does off a F10. 6 is not greater than 8 (or 20).
Bull
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 4 2010, 05:58 PM) *
Technically, Bull, spirits don't have armor aside from the Immunity.


Well, true. I didn't follow all bajillion posts in the thread because, well, kinda boring smile.gif I was just addressing a couple specific points. Either way, we're both right smile.gif

QUOTE
A force 4 spirit is no more susceptible to burst fire than a force 10 is. Burst fire doesn't add to the modified DV, it only means that it does more damage after the conversion to stun.

Eg. a DV 6 AP +0 attack with full auto bounces off a F4 spirit just as it does off a F10. 6 is not greater than 8 (or 20).


I think you may have misread the Burst Fire rules.

Burst Fire (Narrow Burst, specifically) straight up adds +2 DV (p153 SR4A).

Burst Fire definitely effects damage, regardless of whether it penetrates your armor or not, as you compare the modified DV of the attack against the AP modified armor (page 160 SR4A).

Hardened Armor only "ignores" the damage if the modified DV equal to or lower than the Hardened Armor rating (p 295 SR4A).

So if I fire an Ingram Smartgun (5P) with a Narrow Burst (+2 DV for 7DV total), and I get 3 net hits on the SPirit, I'm punching through 9 or less Hardened armor (So Force 4 or less). If I'm rocking AP ammo in my Smartgun, I'm effectivly punching through 13 points of Hardned Armor (So FOrce 6 or Less).

Bull
Matsci
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 4 2010, 03:22 PM) *
So if I fire an Ingram Smartgun (5P) with a Narrow Burst (+2 DV for 7DV total), and I get 3 net hits on the SPirit, I'm punching through 9 or less Hardened armor (So Force 4 or less). If I'm rocking AP ammo in my Smartgun, I'm effectivly punching through 13 points of Hardned Armor (So FOrce 6 or Less).

Bull


Bull, you are normally better than this...

QUOTE (SR4 Rules)
NARROW BURSTS
Narrow bursts cause more damage to the target. Increase the attack’s DV by +2. Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.


Smartgun X with 3 hits punches through 7 or less armor, not 9...
tagz
Yeah, I have to agree with that assessment. If we're treating a spirit's armor as normal for associated rule purposes such as AP, then the rule that automatic fire not modifying DV when comparing to armor rating should also apply.
Bull
Huh. Yeah, I TOTALLY missed that. I'm a dumbass. And have been doing it wrong for quite some time. Hrmm...

That makes it a bit more interesting then, doesn't it? smile.gif
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Tomothy @ Jul 4 2010, 02:58 AM) *
Tymeaus: Where in the rules does it explicitly state that elemental weapons are exempt from ITNW?

the rules are about magical or non magical DV.

the rules don't say "only bullets" or punches.

DV. Magical, non magical.

Magical DV do not deal with the doubled spirit armor rating.

Non magical DV does.

Everything about sonic, electrical, acid etc may be fun to think about in terms of theory of science and magic, but the only thing that matters in the rules is if the DV of those attacks are magical or not.
LurkerOutThere
and whether or not their AP applies.


Tada!
Lansdren
This is how I see the situation


When a spirit materialises it pulls itself a body together in some way (actual defined mechanics do not exist so claiming what its made of by way of atomic structure is pointless).
Said body being not the same as a flesh and blood entity is more resistant to damage / disruption.

This is defined by the rules as Immunity (or resistance if you prefer) and is modelled by being defined as effectively hardened armour against normal weapons of Fx2. Armour as defined in all occurrences as susceptible to Armour Penetration (AP) By this I mean there is no notation giving the immunity any ability to ignore AP.

The mechanics are such that a especially skilled / gifted individual with a basic weapon could with some luck do some damage on a spirit but this is unlikely

A F4 spirit (not very high but within the capacity for most mages) has the same as Harden Armour 8 against normal weapons and no armour at all against magical attacks. This would require a shot from a baseline heavy pistol with normal ammo to need three net hits (base of 5 plus net of 3 giving modified DV of 8 against modified Armour of 7 (8-1)) to do any damage against which the spirit would still get the armour for its soak roll. More advanced ammo would lower said number of net hits or remove the issue altogether but still allow the armour value to be used for the soak roll.

As with mundane security different ammo can help balance against the power of the defence. Just as you wouldn’t use ex ex against a rentacop in a armoured vest (cost to high in comparison to need) you wouldn’t need it against a very low level spirit but against something more formidable such as a F6 or above spirit there are ammo types that can scale with them. It should be noted that depending on how you play your games when it comes to availability and restricted items getting and keeping the special types of ammo can be more tricky thus making higher level spirits (rare as they themselves might be) harder to handle in the mundane.

but as with all rules they are open to house rulling and GM Fiat
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 5 2010, 02:51 AM) *
As with mundane security different ammo can help balance against the power of the defence. Just as you wouldn’t use ex ex against a rentacop in a armoured vest (cost to high in comparison to need) you wouldn’t need it against a very low level spirit but against something more formidable such as a F6 or above spirit there are ammo types that can scale with them. It should be noted that depending on how you play your games when it comes to availability and restricted items getting and keeping the special types of ammo can be more tricky thus making higher level spirits (rare as they themselves might be) harder to handle in the mundane.


This is something I have a bit of an issue with. The idea that everyone and their dog has APDS, yet it is somehow rarer then hen's teeth whenever a player goes looking for it. If every security officer has APDS as you suggest, then the bullets would be far less rare because runners would hunt them, just to gain the ammo they carry.
Tomothy
Tymaeus: Sorry, I thought you were claiming that elemental attacks were, like magical attacks, completely exempt from ITNW. I totally agree that the armor from ITNW is susceptible to armor penetration.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 5 2010, 11:31 AM) *
This is something I have a bit of an issue with. The idea that everyone and their dog has APDS, yet it is somehow rarer then hen's teeth whenever a player goes looking for it. If every security officer has APDS as you suggest, then the bullets would be far less rare because runners would hunt them, just to gain the ammo they carry.




I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not suggest that everyone has ADPS ammo at any point in my post, if you feel I did can you please quote it for me.

As for my points I feel for low level things normal ammo works perfectly fine. for higher force spirits like higher professional level opposition you have the ability to scale up your ammunition. I pointed out that most people I would hope would use appropriate ammo for the enemy IE normal rounds on a rentacop but something packing more of a punch when against a high threat enemy.

As for availability I do think that power creep can be a problem but on the other hand I would say this. If your attacking a Ares owned site and don’t expect the guards to be packing more then the basic level of heat your being silly. The resources a Corp has in comparison to a runner is massive and sometimes you will find yourself out gunned in some way. But as a counter point the level of danger involved should be balanced against the skills of the team and the actual value of the job at hand.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tomothy @ Jul 5 2010, 04:39 AM) *
Tymaeus: Sorry, I thought you were claiming that elemental attacks were, like magical attacks, completely exempt from ITNW. I totally agree that the armor from ITNW is susceptible to armor penetration.


No Problems Tomothy... I kinda figured out where you were going with this... No offense taken... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 5 2010, 04:20 AM) *
I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not suggest that everyone has ADPS ammo at any point in my post, if you feel I did can you please quote it for me.

As for you specifiaclly, you simply mention different ammo types, the 2 most common ones brought up for anti spirit activity are SnS, and APDS. Actually APDS is brought up for almost everything, which is odd considering is harder to get a hold of then it is to replace your spine with a super computer.

QUOTE
As for availability I do think that power creep can be a problem but on the other hand I would say this. If your attacking a Ares owned site and don’t expect the guards to be packing more then the basic level of heat your being silly. The resources a Corp has in comparison to a runner is massive and sometimes you will find yourself out gunned in some way. But as a counter point the level of danger involved should be balanced against the skills of the team and the actual value of the job at hand.

Again, I have to ask, does EVERY guard have them? Cause if so, it would be faster and cheaper to hunt those guards and pick up their ammo, then to put up with all the BS of the black market and buy my own.

"So someone broke in, knocked out every guard, and stole their ammo, then left?" "Yes sir, now if we only knew what they were after, we could start to track them down."
Darkeus
Eh, I just always apply the logic of Shadowrun 2nd edition to this debate. Applying this logic, I always rule that it is Hardened armor against physical attacks, half against elemental attacks. Stick n Shock is not an elemental effect. Stick N Shock is a physical bullet that has to IMPLANT before it can discharge. As this is the case, if it does not exceed the Hardened Armor value then it cannot affect the spirit. Those rounds won't penetrate the "armor" of teh spirit in the first place to deliver the shock.

A flamethrower? Now that is an elemental effect! Throwing acid on the manifested spirit? Yeah, that would work. Acid bullets? Bounce right off.

Mundanes get the ol' Force of Will attack. That has worked in Shadowrun for a long time and it works now. There are other ways to smackdown a spirit.

Eh, it really is such a vague topic in Shadowrun. YMMV I suppose should be said.
Mäx
QUOTE (Darkeus @ Jul 6 2010, 08:59 AM) *
A flamethrower? Now that is an elemental effect! Throwing acid on the manifested spirit? Yeah, that would work. Acid bullets? Bounce right off.

Could you please tell me how you see capsule rounds bounching of of anythink.
Lanlaorn
The capsules don't break?
Darkeus
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 6 2010, 02:09 AM) *
Could you please tell me how you see capsule rounds bounching of of anythink.



Ever had a paintball bounce off of you? I know I have.

smile.gif

Point is, been poorly written for a while. At least earlier editions tried a little harder. In a way, it would be hard for me to rule against the acid round. Eh, yet it it really makes sense for it not to affect the spirit.

Yeah, not very well written or explained across many editions.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 6 2010, 06:13 AM) *
As for you specifiaclly, you simply mention different ammo types, the 2 most common ones brought up for anti spirit activity are SnS, and APDS. Actually APDS is brought up for almost everything, which is odd considering is harder to get a hold of then it is to replace your spine with a super computer.


Again, I have to ask, does EVERY guard have them? Cause if so, it would be faster and cheaper to hunt those guards and pick up their ammo, then to put up with all the BS of the black market and buy my own.

"So someone broke in, knocked out every guard, and stole their ammo, then left?" "Yes sir, now if we only knew what they were after, we could start to track them down."


See again I didn't say every guard should carry ADPS. I specifically gave two examples of power level one a basic grunt with no definition of gear, but personally I would have given them normal ammo or maybe gel rounds (if somewhere with possible civilian targets). My second example was if you were to be breaking into a place owned by a weapon manufacturer then you would be silly not to expect something with more kick, for me I would go for Ex or maybe Ex Ex. The ADPS stuff I would save for specialised teams or those expecting to deal with vehicles because that's what its for. If you have a game where everyone and their dog is running round with some ultra hard to get forbidden ammo then that's between you and your GM. Personally I think power creep can get very silly if your not paying attention to it.

Guy behind the counter at a Stuffer Shack to me might be carrying a holdout with normal ammo or maybe flechette maybe even going up to a heavy pistol or a roomsweeper

Basic guard on the front gate of a low risk site might be carrying heavy pistol with gel rounds and a spare clip of normal live ammo for when it gets real.

Threat team inside a high risk site might be carrying assault rifles loaded with Ex Ex and a few smoke / flash grenades.



But then it all depends on what level your playing and how street / Cold Pro your taking it. Personal tastes will differ but I like my games to be plausible.
IKerensky
I wouldn't see guards using Ex or EX-EX... especially in a weapon manufacture...

I would see them use electric dart, bristle ammo or such things more often than not.
Lansdren
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jul 6 2010, 08:29 AM) *
I wouldn't see guards using Ex or EX-EX... especially in a weapon manufacture...

I would see them use electric dart, bristle ammo or such things more often than not.



Whats bristle ammo?


But yea I can see your point what I was really getting at was if your making cool stuff ammo wise your more likely to dish it out to some of your guards as its a low cost item when balanced against the cost to risk ratio. A few bucks more money to drastically up your security effectivness in combat seems fair in some instances.
IKerensky
Bristle ammo are from the Arsenal, I am unsure how they are named in english. Thoses are the ammo that disintegrate against solid surface, supposedly specialties for Security Forces in sensible area and airplanes...
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 6 2010, 12:19 AM) *
The ADPS stuff I would save for specialised teams or those expecting to deal with vehicles because that's what its for. If you have a game where everyone and their dog is running round with some ultra hard to get forbidden ammo then that's between you and your GM. Personally I think power creep can get very silly if your not paying attention to it.

Ok, cause I was just asking, I've seen it said repeatedly that even gangers should have that kind of bullet in their guns, and I was wondering where everyone except the players were getting them from.


QUOTE
I like my games to be plausible.

I think we're on roughly the same page then.
IKerensky
If APDS are peculiarly efficient against high force spirit, shouldn't they be given to sec. forces that expect thus kind of opposition ? even if not expecting armored vehicules.

Sound also cheaper and more efficient to have one APDS magasine with a high penetration gun as a specialist in a squad than to provide real anti-tank weaponary. Even if he is not supposed to use them in every situation.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jul 6 2010, 11:04 AM) *
Ok, cause I was just asking, I've seen it said repeatedly that even gangers should have that kind of bullet in their guns, and I was wondering where everyone except the players were getting them from.



I think we're on roughly the same page then.



I think sometimes people get caught up with the power play stuff. It seems to me that all discussions end up based on some high end level to prove how bad the rules are, which is where the power gaming comes in with people quoting about ADPS and Milspec weapons.

Take this thread for example, on the whole the imunity against natural weapons thing can be a pain and some people have different opinions on how it should be dealt with but to me it seems relativly straight forward and not a major hassel with spirits from F1 to F5 once your hitting F6 and above its getting to the point where you need to break out the heavy weapons but surely thats the point of a F6+ spirit is for big engagements not small stuff.



Mäx
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 6 2010, 01:23 PM) *
Take this thread for example, on the whole the imunity against natural weapons thing can be a pain and some people have different opinions on how it should be dealt with but to me it seems relativly straight forward and not a major hassel with spirits from F1 to F5 once your hitting F6 and above its getting to the point where you need to break out the heavy weapons but surely thats the point of a F6+ spirit is for big engagements not small stuff.

I dont know, considering that you can have multiple bound force 6 spirits straight out of chargen.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 6 2010, 01:26 PM) *
I dont know, considering that you can have multiple bound force 6 spirits straight out of chargen.



True with a cost of +25BP to get that magic at six and then minimum of 1bp per spirit so say 3 spirits with 3 services each is 9BP

So ok its possible to have three force six spirits at gen for only 34BP then the avererage mage spends.

It seems alot of BP to spend on something that if you really want you can get in game. But hey people do silly things all the time.

But as a comparison
For the less BP cost a Street Sam can have

Heavy Weapons 5 = 20BP
Specialised for assult cannon = 2Bp
Restricted gear for Panther XXL = 5Bp
Panther XXL with gyro harness smartlink and a load of ex ex ammo = 2BP

Have BP left over and be able to shoot though the said F6 spirits without to much hassle.
Mäx
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 6 2010, 03:35 PM) *
True with a cost of +25BP to get that magic at six and then minimum of 1bp per spirit so say 3 spirits with 3 services each is 9BP

So ok its possible to have three force six spirits at gen for only 34BP then the avererage mage spends.

It seems alot of BP to spend on something that if you really want you can get in game. But hey people do silly things all the time.

But as a comparison
For the less BP cost a Street Sam can have

Heavy Weapons 5 = 20BP
Specialised for assult cannon = 2Bp
Restricted gear for Panther XXL = 5Bp
Panther XXL with gyro harness smartlink and a load of ex ex ammo = 2BP

Have BP left over and be able to shoot though the said F6 spirits without to much hassle.

Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.
And also that sammy is now slugging around a big ass piece of forbidden weaponry, not exactly subtle.
And the fact that the sammy has to get an assault cannon speaks volumes for the power of spirits, also there no such think as assault cannon ex-ex rounds.
And you need an other restricted gear quality for the ammo.

Also my point was only that force 6 spirits arent exactly something rare.
Mäx
Damm, multipost
Lanlaorn
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jul 6 2010, 04:17 AM) *
Bristle ammo are from the Arsenal, I am unsure how they are named in english. Thoses are the ammo that disintegrate against solid surface, supposedly specialties for Security Forces in sensible area and airplanes...


In English they're called Frangible rounds.

QUOTE
Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.
And also that sammy is now slugging around a big ass piece of forbidden weaponry, not exactly subtle.
And the fact that the sammy has to get an assault cannon speaks volumes for the power of spirits, also there no such think as assault cannon ex-ex rounds.
And you need an other restricted gear quality for the ammo.

Also my point was only that force 6 spirits arent exactly something rare.


And his point was that neither are heavy weapons, using the same criteria of "I can have them coming out of chargen".
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 6 2010, 09:02 AM) *
Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.


In order to have a bound F6 spirit at chargen, the mage would need to, at chargen, buy Magic 6. wink.gif
Traul
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 6 2010, 03:27 PM) *
In order to have a bound F6 spirit at chargen, the mage would need to, at chargen, buy Magic 6. wink.gif

Yes, but his point was that any mage should start with Magic 6, bound spirits or not, so this is not an extra cost. I tend to disagree, but that's another topic.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 6 2010, 02:02 PM) *
Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.
And also that sammy is now slugging around a big ass piece of forbidden weaponry, not exactly subtle.
And the fact that the sammy has to get an assault cannon speaks volumes for the power of spirits, also there no such think as assault cannon ex-ex rounds.
And you need an other restricted gear quality for the ammo.

Also my point was only that force 6 spirits arent exactly something rare.



Your right on the canon I'm afraid it was a very fast put together and I didnt sense check it, but truth be told the point still stands using the answer "I can at gen" isnt a very strong one there is alot of things one can do at gen but that doesnt mean one should if you want any form of flexibility and dont just want to be a one hit wonder.


As to the Magic six issue. Your right I assummed not running with magic six at character gen mostly due to my own preference of soft capping magic as the cost for that one point of magic seems somewhat out of balance. 25Bp which is the same as 50Karma to most people. This seems to me to fall in the not worth it side of a cost to benefit analysis in my mind and I think quite a few other people on here agree.

But this still goes back to my point on one hit or balance Magic six while fun is very costly same as having a bunch of bound F6 spirits.

But just to bring this down to a more normal level of mayhem as I would know it.

A F6 spirit could be taken out with a perfectly ordinary Ruger 100 rifle using common explosive rounds with only four net hits (base of 7DV +1 for explosive rounds +4 net hits Giving a modified DV of 12 against modified armour rating of 11). Ok would take a couple of shots and some good rolls but is doable in my mind.

Mäx
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 6 2010, 04:57 PM) *
As to the Magic six issue. Your right I assummed not running with magic six at character gen mostly due to my own preference of soft capping magic as the cost for that one point of magic seems somewhat out of balance. 25Bp which is the same as 50Karma to most people. This seems to me to fall in the not worth it side of a cost to benefit analysis in my mind and I think quite a few other people on here agree.

Yes i gotto admit that going for magic 6 is stupidly exspensive in BP-gen, but i prefer to use karmagen anyway its just better and makes more sense using the same cost for stuff as asfter chargen

QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 6 2010, 04:57 PM) *
A F6 spirit could be taken out with a perfectly ordinary Ruger 100 rifle using common explosive rounds with only four net hits (base of 7DV +1 for explosive rounds +4 net hits Giving a modified DV of 12 against modified armour rating of 11). Ok would take a couple of shots and some good rolls but is doable in my mind.

Heh, hold-out loaded with S&S needs one nethit to damage that spirit, its gonna take a few shot but that spirit will go down.
I wasn't trying to say force 6 spirits are super strong, just that theyr not that rare.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jul 6 2010, 03:17 AM) *
Bristle ammo are from the Arsenal, I am unsure how they are named in english. Thoses are the ammo that disintegrate against solid surface, supposedly specialties for Security Forces in sensible area and airplanes...



I forget what they are called in Asenal---but the RL version are called frangible rounds. Great for damaging soft flesh, and basically disentigrate when they hit something solid like a wall or armor plate.
darthmord
I like tagz's house rules suggestion. Sweet, simple, to the point.

Coming from SR1 through current day, I see damage like so:

Normal
Elemental
Magical

ItNW works against Normal weapons. Thus against those, you get full effect. As historically, Elemental gives -1/2 and Magical gives -100%. Has always worked in games I've played in or ran.

SnS is rather cheesy. I think it would have worked better had it just given a flat damage that multiple rounds (hitting the target) would would stack. Something akin to each round that hits does 2 Stun, multiple rounds striking the target stack damage.

A sonic gun is an elemental attack. ItNW would still apply. Armor equal to Force would still be in the resistance roll.

A large part of the problem with some of the rules in the BBB is that their writers have tried to get fancy or clever with the rule instead of keeping it simple.
Matsci
QUOTE (darthmord @ Jul 7 2010, 11:04 AM) *
A sonic gun is an elemental attack. ItNW would still apply. Armor equal to Force would still be in the resistance roll.


The Sonic gun disagrees with you

QUOTE
The Screech sonic attack can be projected as a narrow, medium, or wide spread beam, using the same rules as shotguns (see p. 144, SR4) for determining the number of targets affected and the DV modifier. The Screech is resisted with Willpower instead of Body. Armor does not apply, but damper earware (p. 333, SR4) provides 2 dice for the resistance test. A Hush or Silence spell reduces the Screech’s DV by –1 per ht on the Spellcasting Test. Targets hit by a Screech beam suf er the ef ects of disorienta-tion and nausea (see p. 245, SR4).
JohnNoSIN
QUOTE (darthmord @ Jul 7 2010, 06:04 PM) *
SnS is rather cheesy. I think it would have worked better had it just given a flat damage that multiple rounds (hitting the target) would would stack. Something akin to each round that hits does 2 Stun, multiple rounds striking the target stack damage.


sticknshok rounds arent that bad if you make them shotgun rounds only like reality. shotguns should be onlly gun allowd to use weird shot materials, cause they're hard to hide unlike a tiffany self defender.
Yerameyahu
The Screech is not a sonic blasty gun. It's a metahuman-ear painful noise gun.

Yeah, that's the first thing I'd suggest if S&S are a problem in your game, and it's been suggested a lot in the past. smile.gif Shotgun-only.
Mäx
That just doesn't make any sense from the advancment of technology angle, we allready have that stuff for shotguns, are you saying you think there would be no advancement in the next 60+ years.
Personally i would prefer the shotgun version being more powerful then the rest as it's so much bigger round. cyber.gif
darthmord
Matsci, I understand that as written it disagrees. I believe that to be incorrect and would rule as such at my table.

That said, it would still have its normal effect on metahumans. It just wouldn't be the panacea against Spirits as some would like. It uses an elemental process so it should follow that path.

IOW, if the game keeps making exceptions to the rules, then why bother having rules?
Yerameyahu
Nothing makes sense from the 'advancement of tech' angle. If you're gonna start worrying about that, you've got bigger problems. smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012