There's no logic hole. Tasers are NOT "Zeus bottled lightning bolts".

Tasers work by screwing with biological systems, not by overwhelming them with raw elemental power. They specifically work by causing your muscles to lock up. Pain is a side effect. Tasers are actually very low amperage.

Lasers, power lines, water cannons, all deliver a large amount of raw elemental force on their target.

Tasers do not. Ergo, in my games, they don't get to bypass ItNW.



-karma

OK, so lets come up with a hypothetical critter with "Immunity to Electricity".

Would you say that SnS ammo works normally against this creature - halves armor rating? Under RAW, a creature that is "immune to electricity" is susceptible to electricity (although slightly more resistant)?

What about a creature that has the special ability "Immunity to Sonic"? Would sonic rifles ignore its armor completely?

RAW doesn't make any sense in these examples. If a critter is immune to something, it's immune.

edit: Figured I'd address this one as well:

The Immunity rule does include an exception: "if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage."

Somewhat off topic, but if I'm not mistaken, Voltage is the proper measurement of Electrical Pressure (Force) and Wattage is the measurement of Power. Amperage is a measurement of the NUMBER of electrons in motion, ie the power of the "current" or path the electricity follows. I think Voltage or Wattage would be a more proper term used for what you want, and SnS would have plenty of both as I believe modern teasers supply high voltage to it's target. Go with Wattage I'd say.

Voltage measures the electric potential, amperage measures the flow of current. Volts * Amps = Watts (power). Resistors (e.g. the human body) transform volts to watts (V = I * R)

Voltage and Current are pretty well intertwined. Tasers work by generating a certain amount of voltage difference (so that electrons want to flow from one pole to the other) and use the natural resistance of the human body to create a current through the target, but not enough to be lethal. The current causes muscles to spasm, disrupting the body.

Basically the same way that defibrillator paddles work.

As, silly as it sounds... yes. It's badly written but by RAW a critter with Magic 6 and Immunity to Electricity would receive 6 against an electrical attack (6 x 2 = 12 / 2 = 6). If the effect isn't elemental the return is far greater.

However, the rule also makes a logical WTF a bit with Immunity to Age. In the description to that particular Immunity there appears to be no rating whatsoever. It just does not effect. This is in complete disregard of the rules they just laid out. Does this mean that ITNW that follows ALSO entirely throws out the previous rules? I suppose this does set the precedent to make a type of damage, effect, etc, 100% non-effective 100% of the time though, even though this is not stated in the rule description that encompasses the entirety of Immunity.... Sigh...

They tried to do too much at once and it came up making little sense and not working as intended, either one interpretation or the other. No matter how I've looked at this power it doesn't make sense in some regard, or is terribly broken in another. Really, they should have broken up spirit armor and immunity into different powers.

It really depends on how they define it not name it. Immunity to normal weapons is not an immunity it is a resistance just like hardened armor except magical crap goes right through it. Immunity to aging and pathogens are actual immunities. If you defined immunity to electricity as x2 force in hardened armor vs electricity it would not be immune just highly resistant. And again depending on how it was defined it would determine whether or not electricity 1/2d the armor value. In the case of something that specific you would think it would express that it was not halved kind of like non-conductive, but it does not have to be that way.

They can call it the unicorns immunity to gryphons and if they say it gives x2 hardned armor vs all non-magical attacks that is what it does despite its name implying it only works against gryphons.

As mentioned, it's just a name. The name has zero relevance to the actual rules it represents. You could rename Immunity to Normal Weapons to anything you like and it wouldn't change a thing. Likewise, you could call regular Ballistic Armor, I dunno, "Bulletproof Armor" and it, too, wouldn't actually make you immune to bullets simply because of that name. They're just shorthand labels for a broader set of rules. That's all.

I know a lot of people hate house rules but...

Tagz's House Rule for less Mind Numbing Immunity rules:

Resistance
Type: P - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always
A critter with Resistance has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack, affliction, or effect. The critter gains a rating equal to it's Magic against that type of damage or effect. This is treated as "hardened" protection, meaning that if the damage or effect's rating does not exceed the Resistance rating then there is no damage or effect.

As this one removes any mention of the term "Armor" in any form, then there is no AP whatsoever. So a critter can have Resistance to Sound, Fire, poisons, pathogens, damage, whatever. The net effect is the same against most elemental effects, a positive gain against unusual ones such as sound, and a 50% reduction against non-elemental effects such as poisons.


Spirit Armor
Type: P - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always
A critter with Spirit Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact Armor ratings equal to twice the critter's Magic. This Armor is treated as "hardened" protection against all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Armor is not treated as "hardened" protection against non-magical attacks made using that allergen. All spirits have Spirit Armor unless otherwise noted.

Same rules that exist now, just clearer. AP works as normal as there is no exemption.


Immunity
Type: P - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always
A critter with Immunity is completely unaffected by any damage or effect from that source. Typical Immunities include: Age, Toxins, Drugs, Pathogens, and Elemental effects.

This last one grants 100% protection from something.



Anyhow, that's how I think they should have written it. I can understand though... word count can make some scary results when you try to combine like things.

Except that Immunity to Age is NOT Immunity to Normal Weapons... they work completely differently, and are Completely different powers... You know, it could be why they don't work the same...

Keep the Faith

Care to quantify large since we're being so specific? Where is the magic cut off in your game, a 9volt isn't enough but a car battery is? Where do you make the cut?

Depends. I don't count *any* nonmagic element as ignoring ITNW.

Neither does anyone else, they just halve the armar provided by it as per the rules.

If its immune to electricity (as per the critter power Immunity) then that 2xForce points worth of hardened armor would count as 2xForce points of Non-conductive armor as per the armor mod, meaning, full value versus electrical attacks.

Ditto on the immunity to sonic.

The armor penetration value on both electrical damage and sonic damage specifically bypass ballistic and impact armor. ITNW grants ballistic and impact armor. Immunity to Electricity grants Non-conductive armor and Immunity to Sonic grants Sound Dampener armor as per both of those element's specific armor types that are used at full value.

ITNW may also grant this "non conductive" and "sound dampening" armor as well, however, it is not worded as such (it specifically only grants Ballistic and Impact armor, which is halved for all elemental damage and ignored in the case of Sonic).

It does not specifically grant Ballistic and Impact armor, you're inferring that from the parenthetical (see Hardened Armor). Only for damage resistance tests does it give "normal armor". I don't understand how you intuitively will say Immunity to Electricity gives nonconductive armor but Immunity to Normal Weapons (which encompasses Electricity, because Normal is defined as non-magic) doesn't.

Bah I need to stop checking this thread, I constantly get the urge to reply but I know it's pointless.

You might want to polish this a bit more; in your version Spirit Armor still seems to give non-hardened protection against allergens. (Where it previously specifically gave none.) What about:
"If the critter has the Allergen weakness, then the Spirit Armor does not apply to attacks made using that weakness."

Ding ding ding.

Ever played Paranoia?

"The critter gains an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic against that damage. Additionally, this "Armor rating" is added to the [damage resistance test] as normal Armor."

An armor rating against electricity that counts for its full value would be non-conductive armor, thus the "-half" doesn't apply (ditto sonic) because the "-half" is because impact armor is specifically halved versus elemental damage. If your immunity is granting "anti-electricity" armor, its not impact armor.

The only thing you could ever possibly argue is that ITNW armor isn't ever reduced, which makes spirits above Force 4 neigh unstoppable and spirits above Force 6 as definitively unstoppable.

My current sams cyber arm side always holds a Sakura Fubiki with SnS juts in case free action to start blasting. He has a heavy pistol as his main side arm though. Plus on top of that he has a shotgun/ar and sniper.

I have trouble seeing where there are magical elements?

If you are meaning the elemental spells they specifically point out that once the spell has taken form the manifestation is purely elemental and in no way actually magical. Lightingbolt spell lets you throw lightning but once its electric its just electic you cant counterspell a lightningbolt.

*shrug* It's from a magic source. I didn't say it was RAW. Max, 'ignoring' obviously means 'not subject to the full penalties' in this context.

That's exactly what I'm arguing and no, they're not unstoppable, just bring a Mage or an Adept.

I realize that's not what you want to hear but "I can kill any spirit I can land a hit on with my Sonic Rifle or Dart gun" is just insane, especially in the case of drugs vs. spirits.

For your drug statement, please add:
Outside of known allergies...

"As it is on earth, so shall it be in the heavens"

BlueMax

See, the issue is not "players killing them" but "players summoning them."

After more thought, I've decided that in my game we should probably play as written, that is, dumb stupid old SnS works.

Why?

Mainly game balance.

The crux of this issue doesn't really have to do with the weaker sprits(say force 4 and below) because we all know a good Sam with backup can send those things back to the Astral in pieces.

the issue is higher force spirits and how they lose a lot of their tremendous power when half of their armor isn't counted. Whether or not this is correct flavor wise isn't really what I'm talking about.

Look at a measly for 6 spirit of Man, our party spellcaster's tank du jour.

Give him stunbolt and fear as the optional powers.

Look at the stats:
body 7
reaction 8
intuition 6
logic 6
willpower 6

He's as smart as the smartest guy in your party. He's almost as fast as your Sam. he can't drive and he can't hack, but he can sure make a mess of his opponents.

He'll probably win initiative.

Maybe he'll materialize out of the party's sight, having watched them and assensed them from the astral first. He can probably tell who is a mage and who's a sam already. While he's no master sneak, he is smart and very perceptive and understands situational modifiers as well as the players.

First, get rid of that pesky mage with fear. Sure a mage will probably have a decent will, but not enough to beat 12 dice thrown against it. Heck, maybe 18 with the rule of 6. Immediately after forcing the mage to retreat he goes on full defense. that's 20 dice to dodge with.

I'm just making this up as a go along, but I hope I'm making a cogent point: spirits are smart, tough and very skilled. There is nothing to suggest that they wouldn't fight just as hard as the players do.

They need a balance, in this case, electric bullets and the like.

But, It ISN'T granting Immunity to Electricity, Nor Immunity to Fire/Water/Sonic/Blast/Sand/Smoke/Whatever... So you do not receive any Specific Armor type against the Elemental Damage... It is Immunity to Normal Weapons, Not Immunity to Specific Elemental Damage...

As for Spirits above 6 being Definitively Unstoppable, I still disagree, as Net Hits will allow Weapons to Penetrate that ITNW pretty handily, even for Assault Rifles Class Weapons. Anything Less better be bringiong a LOT of net hits to that party, however. Base Damage of 9 or 10 ias still pretty impressive in its own right, and then bringing 4-5 net hits to add brings it to 14-15 DV.

However, as we have been discussing, ITNW is reduced/Added to get a Modified Armor Value when Special Ammunition/MOre Robust Weapons are added into the Mix... A Sniper Rifle with APDS has -7 to that "Use to be Impressive" ITNW, now it is not so much impressive as it is sad for the Spirit. Spirits are plenty Powerful enough without adding in an interpretation of ITNW that does not correspond to anything else in the books.

Keep the Faith

Keep the Faith

I do believe I was replying to a reply to a reply to a post about "What about Immunity to Electricity?"

In which case, YES IT IS getting "Immunity to Specific Elemental Damage."

It's not all that complicated.

If a player can convince me that it's raw elemental damage doing the work, it gets to bypass ItNW.

If it's something that, in a movie would either kill someone outright or blow them back ten or more feet, then to me it probably qualifies as "raw elemental power".

I happen to know that tasers work by interfering with biological functions. Not by overwhelming with raw elemental power.

Spirits have no biology, ergo, tasers do bupkis to them.

As I said, my system for bypassing ItNW with elemental attacks tends to be organic, not number based. I go by what feels right.



-karma

Just because someone reads something wrong and believes that Immunity to Normal Weapons grants Immunity to Electricity (or any other elemental attack) does not mean that they are correct. They are not one and the same, as has been discussed many times in just this topic...

Keep the Faith

You do know that even Main Line Electricity impacts a human system just like a Tazer does don't you? It is a minor matter of degree is all... Electricity is Electricity... People do die from being Tazered (There are documented cases)... If it was as minor as you think it is, that would never happen.

No worries though...

Keep the Faith

To me the degree is all the difference in the world.



-np

Definitely your choice... but it is not Canon...

Keep the Faith

Not comprised out of atomic matter however. There are no protons, or electrons in that substance for the acid to interact with.

No, its just that when a weapon designed to target the nervous system is employed against a target, and expected to be effective, the target 'should' have a nervous system, or equivalent analog. Spirits lack this.

And you know this how? A Physical Form is just that... PHYSICAL... I have a Physical Form and so do you...What makes you think that the Spirits Physical FOrm differs significantly from yours? No where in the book does it outline such changes anywhere that I can find... So what is your basis for the Argument here? Oh, I know, You are an expert in the Field of the Physical Properties of SPirits and Metahmanity, Yes?

The fact is that the rules allow for a spirit to be harmed by anything that will harm a physical person... some of these things require a bit more Ooomph, due to the Hardened Armor of ITNW, but that is all... No where does it say that they are treated differently. Any conclusion to this is purely a personal one, and is not Canon.

Keep the Faith

Then read pg 92 of streetmagic harder next time. Top paragraph, blue cover, just to be clear.


If you can find me a rule saying drones are immune to poison, I'd love to see it. The fact of the matter is, spirits are made out of a "recombinant protoplasm" and are NOT made out of the matter which they appear to be composed of. They are literally made out of magic, and unless you can tell me the pH of magic, I'm afraid I can't allow an acid to work on it.

I have read that section...
And Note that a Spirit is composed of A Recombinant Protoplasm which still reacts (to damage) like normal physical beings when attacked with those pesky things known as elemental effects, of which Acid is one...

Notice that nothing in that section says that they are immune to Elemental Damage, in fact, it suggests that Elemental Damage is a product of their innate correspondences through Magic. They take physical forms, thus they are susceptible to things that may damage those forms... Pretty simple Correspondence in fact. They shape themselves into a living physical entity, thus they suffer the same damage as normal living physical entities... they want to remain immune, they should stay on their side of the Astral Barrier.

As for not allowing certain Elemental Forces to damage a Spirit, That is your choice, but the fact is that it remains Non-Canon...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Thanks, it was late and I missed that possible misinterpretation. I'll fix it later.


And I have to agree with Tymeaus on this one Mord. The paragraph does state they are not comprised of the same material as regular physical beings, but says:

"Despite having no nervous systems, spirits react negatively to damage to their physical and astral forms - similarly to how a physical creature displays pain."

Regular physical pain is ALSO an attack on the nervous system (as well as the rest of the body) and the spirit still is effected by it the same. A taser, while the intent is to attack a nervous system it also hits various other parts of the body. So why would 6S(e) NOT effect it? Because it's targeting something not there? But the attack is hitting other parts at the same time, and we also have a fluff statement that says they react the same to stimuli as normal creatures even without the presence of a distinct nervous system.

Seems to me that they have a magical equivalent, something that allows them to interpret sensations and feel pain. And while it may be different it functions in a similar enough way that it mimics physical creatures, at least in results.

Anyhow, I don't think this fluff has any actual mechanics associated with it.

This doesn't get very far. we all know what drones are, as people in the real world who are intimately familiar with machines, we know they can't be poisoned. All we know about spirits is what the book tells us, which, unfortunately, isn't much.

All that said, I'm just commenting on your analogy. I've decided to follow the rules to the letter on this issue for game balance issues, I think.

That line is clearly just fluff justification for why spirits suffer from wound modifiers.



This condesending tone is ridiculous, especially when in the previous sentence you seriously argued for poisoning creatures that don't eat, drink or breath. Regarding following the rules: we're arguing what the rules say. And IMO you're NOT following the rules to the goddamn letter when you add in a clause about armor penetration and elemental effects that isn't there. I've decided to follow the rules to the letter on this issue for game balance issues, I don't want spirits 1 shot KO'd by a tranq patch. See how that line cuts both ways?

I just can't fucking believe that after showing that tasing spirits logically extends to drugging spirits to demonstrate how absurd this all is there are people arguing in favor of poisoning spirits with a straight face.

I give up, believe whatever stupid things you want. I love how with all this nonsense spirits would be easier to take out than most drones.

I think I found a use for that tranq patch, dude.

I can not find a statement saying elemental effect bypass ItNW and I think that is what a huge portion of this threat is about exactly.


I don't see immunity to cyanide either, but unless they have a physiology to disrupt, poison can't effect them either.


Sorry must have missed that section. Given how technology is virtually immune to magic if advanced enough, I'm not sure how you think there is something mystical enough about a tazer to allow it to harm a spirit.


No, they only LOOK like physical entities they take the shape of, and even then only with realistic form. Lets say a fire spirit takes the form of a pillar of fire. How many tazer rounds do you need to fire into a burning pool of gasoline to put it out? When you can provide some 'reasonable' number, say less then the amount needed to simply deprive the fire of oxygen by virtue of burying it, then your statement could be taken seriously. How many times do you need to tazer a tree? or a car? Spirits can take all these forms, and a stick and shock isn't going to do dick to them. Also as they are not comprised of atomic mater, because if they were e=mc^2, and disrupting a spirit would destroy a continent. There are no protons, or electrons in a spirit aside from dust trapped there when it materialized, and as such it no chemical bonds for the acids to work on.


Unless that acid, or tazer is powered by 'magic' its not going to impact them a whole lot.


Actually it is RAW. Unless the poison or acid are magical... they do not bypass ItNW. Unless you can show me where it says cars, and drones are immune to poison?

Problem is people are demanding a passage in RAW stating spirits are immune to acid directly, and RAW doesn't grant the property of immunity to poisons to cars. So by RAW cars can be poisoned.

Jesus Christ! I never implied that! HERE'S THE DAMN POST I'M REPLYING TO!



Emphasis on "hypothetical critter with "Immunity to Electricity.""

Vehicles have no skin, so no contact vector.
Vehicles don't breathe, so no inhalation.
Vehicles have no digestive system, so no ingestion.
Vehicles have no bloodstream, so no injection.

Toxins, SR4A, p.254.

The point that you miss there, Mordinvan, is that ITNW does not Grant TOTAL IMMUNITY... it provides them with Increased Resistance against things that are not Magical... therefore, even if it is not magical it can still hurt them if powerful enough... Most Elemental Effects reduce that ITNW from Force x2 to just Force... they can still be hurt... it just takes more than it otherwise would... against a human with 6 points of Impact Armor, A tazer acts as if the Armor is only 3... against a Force 6 Spirit with ITNW (12 points of Armor vs non-magical things) then it acts as Armor 6 for the purposes of Damage against Tazers...

You can claim that the rules for ITNW makes them invulnerable, but you claiming it does not make it so... ITNW, as an armor, which it is, is still subject to the AP properties of the weapon used against it. Just like ALL OTHER ARMOR IN THE GAME. It is really simple, one rule for how armor interacts to cover all the various permutations out there... the only caveats to that one simple rule is that Vehicle Armor ignores any Stun Damage (Can't Stun a Vehicle after all), and ITNW ignores Damage if the DV is below the Modified Armor Value (Again, Can't hurt a Spirit if their "Armor" protects them completely; Oddly enough, it is a lot like Vehicle Armor, except Spirit's do have a Stun Track). Now, when that Modified Armor value is lower than the DV of the Weapon, the Spirit takes damage. But they still get to resist that damage with their Armor (remember, it is still treated like Armor) + Body Attribute. They may Still take no damage from the attack, but it is not so certain anymore.

All weapons have the potential to harm a spirit by RAW (Yes, even Poisons)... Anything else is just a house rule. You can use that Houserule you are so fond of (the gaming police are not going to knock down your door and take you off to the reesucation camps for it), but please don't make the mistake that it is RAW... It isn't.

Keep the Faith

Draco18s, I never claimed that you did...
Just take a deep breath and relax... Notice the "Someone" in the post you quoted... it does not say that you did it (Because I knew that it was not you that stated that)... someone else did... Ergo, NOT YOU...

Point is, there is no Immunity to ELECTRICITY, so arguing from that point of view is useless... there is Immunity to Normal Weapons and Immunity to Age (The Hypothetical Immunity to Electricity could be argued from AGE'S perspective, but why would it be... Age is not Damage, per se... And note, that Fire Elementals are still susceptible to FIRE (though using Water makes more sense to me)... thus the Immunity to Electricity has no basis in the Game)... One grants total Immunity (AGE) and the Other grants an increased Resistance to Non-Magical Damage (ITNW)... Notice that Non-Magical Elemental Damage would fall into the ITNW Category by default. Could they have named them Differently? Sure... But they didn't, which is why we have this issue. An issue that, in my opinion, is a non-issue, as ITNW has detailed rules... which USE the rules for Armor and Hardened Armor. Pretty simple... Not sure why it keeps getting so blown out of proportion, actually...

Keep the Faith

Actually they do by the rules. You can find a few references to it here and there. For instance, Touch Sensors on page 145 of Arsenal has "For riggers, controlling a vehicle often gives them the illusion of using the vehicle’s skin as their own," while the Vehicle Tag Eraser on the same page states "installed under the skin of the vehicle." Yes, anyone with half a brain knows that's just a descriptor, but using half a brain doesn't matter to RAWites. Especially when they get like this. (The topic's come up a few times. Despite any of this, there's still people here who believe vehicles and other nonliving things can be affected by numerous biological attacks.)

Also, only toxins are affected by vectors. Things like drugs have no such requirements. Slab apparently works just as effectively against a vehicle as it does a metahuman. Instant KO.

Supricingly your right(there are few creatures i excepted to have that one), but that doesn't mean it isn't valid use of immunity power, considering that the are multiple creatures with immunity to fire and/or cold.

There may indeed be creatures with Immunities to things like fire and cold (Good catch there Mäx), but in general, Spirits are not one of those creatures (Not sure about Things like Shedim, Bugs or the Horrors (if you are using them))... And even if Shedim, Bugs or Horrors are immune to things like that, they would be listed in the description of their abilities and powers. Since General Spirits (The 10 available to Player Characters) do not list such things, then using ITNW to mimic that is not a correct useage of the ITNW ability, it is a Houserule.

Keep the Faith