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Sephiroth
QUOTE
Cyberzombies may not age, but they require constant medications
to keep from developing cancer or worse side effects from the
procedure. Essentially, a cyberzombie’s lifestyle costs are increased
by 2,000Ą a month for medications. Further, these medications
aren’t exactly available over the counter. Producing them requires
a chemical facility. Receiving them from other sources requires the
good graces of the entity that originally performed the surgery (or
overcoming an availability of 24).

Something like that, yeah. Might be a nice alternative safehouse for your Infected teammates to stay at as well. But all this is going to cost a lot of money, mind you, and I think that having a Logic score equal to or higher than that of the smarter of the two nosferatu would be appropriate for something like making your own medications ('cuz forcing an already dead body not to kill itself the rest of the way is serious business, you know).
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 20 2011, 02:40 PM) *
Finding Magic with Magic is harder if it's hidden under the ground, because the earth itself counts as a living organism and thus pretty much shields you from magic at least partially.
And of course from all kinds of sensors, including GPS and the such . .
And finding Cyberzombies with magic is harder on default. It's basically like looking for the silent spot in a sea of sound when looking for an enemy submarine.
The background count itself could be found, but that is hard too.
If you are somewhere with a BGC of 3, your own BGC of 4 does not stand out as much anymore i think . .

As long as you can feed the fab with the receipe and the needed ingredients, i don't see why it would not work.

Fantastic on both counts.

QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Jan 20 2011, 02:43 PM) *
Something like that, yeah. Might be a nice alternative safehouse for your Infected teammates to stay at as well. But all this is going to cost a lot of money, mind you, and I think that having a Logic score equal to or higher than that of the smarter of the two nosferatu would be appropriate for something like making your own medications ('cuz forcing an already dead body not to kill itself the rest of the way is serious business, you know).

Absolutely. Unnatural Vigor applies to mental stats too, right? I could be primarily a Brains Cyberzombie, who busts out the Brawn when necessary.

That's actually what I was thinking about for my backstory, when I was walking the dog earlier - this guy was chosen to become a 'top researcher' for some megacorp, so they cybermancied him up. Then he decides he wants to live (after the prerequisite discovery of philosophy and all of that cliche) and because he was cybered up to be smart and charming he uses his smarts and charm to con his way out of bondage. Now he's on the run, trying to figure out what it means to be an independent CZ, and figuring out what to do with his (un)life.
Stahlseele
Yes, unnatural vigor appears to apply to all attributes.
WhiskeyJohnny
Ok, so I'm trying to build this guy, and I'm not sure if I should go with Elf or Ork or Human. Since we're using Karmagen (without the errata) I don't see much value in going Human, as it only gets me one point of edge, whereas Elf or Ork gives me other stat bonuses and a bonus to how much karma I can spend on stats. Given that, Elf seems superior (as it gives me a bonus to Charisma and more points to spend on stats) but I know that Ork is generally the optimal race. And how much of my Karma should go to money? I know this guy is gonna be expensive, just buying his wares, but how much to CZ's wares usually run?
Sephiroth
Indeed. Hence why cyberzombies are not only terrifying one-man WMD's but also potentially the 'brainiest brains that ever brained,' as I remember someone putting it several months ago.

By the way, is there any assistance you could get from either of the two nos's when it comes to the meds? They ARE generally megalomaniacal and highly intelligent plotters, and if one of them fits the mad scientist archetype of that, they could help quite a bit with making your own medications if they have some skill in Chemistry.
Yerameyahu
"What happens when Essence drops below 0?"

AFAIK, you get the inverse Background Count, right? (Just in this specific instance). Same difference. smile.gif

Is it even possible for a cyberzombie to be any kind of Awakened? Are we talking just "the rules don't say you can't", or is there an actual example and/or rationale? wink.gif
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Jan 20 2011, 04:42 PM) *
Indeed. Hence why cyberzombies are not only terrifying one-man WMD's but also potentially the 'brainiest brains that ever brained,' as I remember someone putting it several months ago.

By the way, is there any assistance you could get from either of the two nos's when it comes to the meds? They ARE generally megalomaniacal and highly intelligent plotters, and if one of them fits the mad scientist archetype of that, they could help quite a bit with making your own medications if they have some skill in Chemistry.


One of them might, but the other wouldn't. I'll have to check and see if he's got the skills necessary to make the stuff though.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 20 2011, 04:48 PM) *
Is it even possible for a cyberzombie to be any kind of Awakened? Are we talking just "the rules don't say you can't", or is there an actual example and/or rationale? wink.gif


I think more the former than the latter. Though it would be nice to be able to cleanse the area around myself, if only not to step on the toes of the mage.
Yerameyahu
Just to comment randomly: you'd assume their 'deadness' wouldn't boost mental attributes, especially on something that's meant (?) to be blaster, not master. Yet another rules oversight, forgivable because they're never supposed to be PCs. smile.gif
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 20 2011, 05:15 PM) *
Just to comment randomly: you'd assume their 'deadness' wouldn't boost mental attributes, especially on something that's meant (?) to be blaster, not master. Yet another rules oversight, forgivable because they're never supposed to be PCs. smile.gif


You'd also assume their 'deadness' wouldn't boost their physical attributes either, on account of their being held together with the pharmaceutical (and magical, I suppose) equivalent of gaffer's tape.

Also, I think I may have found a suitable theme song for this character - "Search and Destroy" by Iggy Pop and the Stooges. "Look out honey 'cause I'm usin' technology" indeed.
Yerameyahu
No, the physical aspect is the whole point, the 'vigor'.
Sephiroth
Well, one's brain is as much of a muscle as the rest of one's muscles, if a million times more complex. Why wouldn't it affect your brain, if it's supposed to be 'just physical vigor?'
Yerameyahu
… Except in the sense that it's not a muscle. biggrin.gif Even if scientific logic were a reasonable line of argument, and we know it's not. smile.gif It's a cyber *zombie*. Zombies are inhumanly physical.
Sephiroth
And traditional zombies, while generally understood as being 'undead,' are typically made so by something that is at least natural - usually a virus of some sort, at least in most of the fiction I'm aware of. SR cyberzombies are so fundamentally unnatural in their state of existence that the universe itself thinks they're supposed to be dead, and that is RAW. I very much doubt that traditional depictions of zombies in popular culture are 100% valid when it comes to CZ's.
Yerameyahu
Traditional zombies are magic (and totally unnatural), while 'bio' zombies aren't undead, but not that it matters. smile.gif

Cyberzombies *are* magic, and so they're 100% arbitrary. I'm just making the point that its thematically appropriate for them to get physical but not mental buffs.
KarmaInferno
Yeah, "science" based zombies as a concept are really only a few decades old.

Pretty much all previous mythological versions were magic based.




-k
Yerameyahu
I mean, and let's not get too far off topic. Zombies are so hot right now, bleh. smile.gif Certainly there are flavors of zombies ranging from 'drugged servants' to 'toxin' to 'virus' to 'mutant'. I'm just saying that, personally, both a cyber*zombie* and a *cyberzombie* make more sense as brutes.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 20 2011, 09:32 PM) *
I mean, and let's not get too far off topic. Zombies are so hot right now, bleh. smile.gif Certainly there are flavors of zombies ranging from 'drugged servants' to 'toxin' to 'virus' to 'mutant'. I'm just saying that, personally, both a cyber*zombie* and a *cyberzombie* make more sense as brutes.


While this may be true, it would be fun to play a cerebral CZ (or Cyber Lich, if you prefer) would it not?

I'm still wondering about this whole karmagen thing - I seem to have really high stats, and that's even before mods. I'm going with Elf, unless somebody tells me Orks (or some Elf variant) is superior, by the way.
Dahrken
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 20 2011, 10:40 PM) *
As long as you can feed the fab with the receipe and the needed ingredients, i don't see why it would not work.

The processing time of a batch can be a problem, if it's too long someone in the facility will notice it is not doing what it is supposed to do and interfere. It's one thing to take control of a facility for say 1 hours, but if you need it for three days because the chemical reactions and purification process are complex and slow, things get trickier.

I don't know how is Sarajevo in the 2070's. Is it stable enough to have a reasonably accessible medical manufacturing facility around (like NOT in the center of an Aztechnology pyramid) ?
Stahlseele
QUOTE
I'm going with Elf, unless somebody tells me Orks (or some Elf variant) is superior, by the way.

that depends entirely on what you want to do.
Orks get more stuff back in comparsion to their poins cost than elves, but elves get it in agility and charisma, which are way more important than strength and body in most cases . .
Mardrax
If you're going to be a face AND can get cleansing done, or want to play up the tragic side some more, you could consider a Dryad instead. Glamour makes for a nice freak as well as help offset some of the 'lack of empathy through having your soul magically duct taped to your corpse' penalty.
Stahlseele
A Dryad Cyberzombie O.o
rofltehcat
About the chemicals... couldn't one of the first runs be to steal a stash of the stuff from a CZ research facility? Probably even the same the character escaped from? They'd never see it coming that your CZ bursts back in while they are looking everywhere for him. Maybe another corp wants something from there anyways and they heard that you have an 'expert' on your team?
Later you could role play that you are running out of the stuff or the stuff is getting bad slowly. As a consequence they could try to find/"recruit" a chemist to synthesize the stuff, try to cut it with other chemicals your team could brew with a lower facility etc or just try to figure out a chemical combination that will do the job nearly as good as the original. And maybe try to keep the CZ from falling apart with magic.
During all of this your character is subject to mood swings, overall psychical instability, maybe even some of the cyber ware shutting off. Of course he is not getting the right medicine and it keeps getting worse until you find a good solution. (Or crash in the front gate of the very same research facility to get another stash of the stuff, they will never see THAT coming grinbig.gif )

It is probably not RAW but I guess the dependency on the chemicals can supply more than enough plot hooks and role playing material.
Stahlseele
"We're going in through the front door, they'll NEVER expect an all out frontal assault!"
Sounds suspiciously like my group . . .
Dahrken
QUOTE (rofltehcat @ Jan 21 2011, 12:53 PM) *
About the chemicals... couldn't one of the first runs be to steal a stash of the stuff from a CZ research facility? Probably even the same the character escaped from?

Since there is something like 12 of such installations on the whole planet, each of them a Delta clinic with heavy-duty magic at hand (you need a Magical lodge of rating at least 12 for the cybermantic procedure), I'm not sure breaking in for the goods is a survivable option, as they are likely to be among the most heavily protected assets of their parent entity.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Jan 21 2011, 06:20 AM) *
I'm still wondering about this whole karmagen thing - I seem to have really high stats, and that's even before mods.


There's still no official RC errata, isn't it? You're supposed to pay level x5 for your attributes and race BP in Karma.
rofltehcat
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Jan 21 2011, 03:18 PM) *
Since there is something like 12 of such installations on the whole planet, each of them a Delta clinic with heavy-duty magic at hand (you need a Magical lodge of rating at least 12 for the cybermantic procedure), I'm not sure breaking in for the goods is a survivable option, as they are likely to be among the most heavily protected assets of their parent entity.

Ok, but what about the facility where they produce the drugs? I don't think they are producing those at the very same installation. Even snatching a transporter of the stuff might be sufficient.
Also do they have all their cyber zombies in those facilities? If they also have cyber zombies somewhere else those cyber zombies need medication, too.
Dahrken
It is definitively possible, but it's far from easy. We are talking about highly specialized and uncommon medications, almost certainly crafted on demand in small batches for exclusive and secretive customers.

In order to get them from the factory, you have to locate where they are produced, but it's just the beginning. You also need to determine when a batch will be available and if you plan an interception in transit the method, time and route of the shipment - and figure a way to intercept without destroying the cargo you want.

Deployed cyberzombies support staff are another possible source, but they are rather uncommon. Figuring out where one will be in time to exploit the information is problematic - jobs requiring this kind of operatives are usually sensitive and completely black, undercover jobs, meaning that those datas will be deeply obfuscated and buried in very secure systems.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Jan 21 2011, 11:39 AM) *
It is definitively possible, but it's far from easy. We are talking about highly specialized and uncommon medications, almost certainly crafted on demand in small batches for exclusive and secretive customers.

In order to get them, you have to locate where they are produced, but it's just the beginning. You need to determine when a batch will be available and if you plan an interception in transit the method, time and route of the shipment - and figure a way to intercept without destroying the cargo you want.


Which is why it makes for an awesome run... smokin.gif
Stahlseele
From the drake thread coming in with an idea . .
Drake . . Cyberzombie . .
I'm thinking COLDSTONE here from Disneys Gargoyles to be exact ^^
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 21 2011, 03:28 PM) *
From the drake thread coming in with an idea . .
Drake . . Cyberzombie . .
I'm thinking COLDSTONE here from Disneys Gargoyles to be exact ^^


Would that even work?

As to getting the drugs from the facility - probably not an option. Though I'm sure that my GM is reading this thread and that we'll be pulling that run at some point. Especially if it's hitting another CZ's supplies while said CZ is deployed. Can you imagine the mayhem?

Oh, and the group already has a Microfac, so I'm good on that front.

Now, I'll check out the Dryad, but that seems like an odd concept. Not as odd as a Drake Dryad Cyberzombie, but still, odd.
InfinityzeN
Did you use my build as a base and go from there?
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 21 2011, 03:44 PM) *
Did you use my build as a base and go from there?


I'm still building, as we don't meet for another week, but I'm using your build for guidance. If I hadn't been at work all day I'd have posted already, but like I said, I'm still working on it.
Draco18s
The only problem with a drake cyborg is that cyber implants don't function and are unavailable in the dracoform.
Stahlseele
I'd guess that THAT depends on what form he was in, when he GOT the implants to begin with O.o
Draco18s
Do people even read the relevant sections of the books anymore?

QUOTE (RC p75)
Augmentations
Drakes can accept any augmentation, but only in their human
form. These implants do not carry over to their dracoform, but
aren’t expelled by the body—they simply
disappear and their bonuses are not available
while the character is in dracoform.
There is no known augmentation currently
available for dracoforms.
Stahlseele
*shrugs*
it's been a bit since i powered through that book.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 21 2011, 11:57 PM) *
The only problem with a drake cyborg is that cyber implants don't function and are unavailable in the dracoform.


Negativ essence without the life supporting ware? Bad idea! But, I wonder what happens to this CZ when his vampire-chummer tries to infect him... Does the univers explode? rotate.gif
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Jan 21 2011, 06:12 PM) *
Negativ essence without the life supporting ware? Bad idea! But, I wonder what happens to this CZ when his vampire-chummer tries to infect him... Does the univers explode? rotate.gif


I suspect we'll come to some kind of agreement. By the RAW, I'm pretty sure he can't - my Essence is less than 0, he would have to drain me to 0 Essence, which is impossible, therefore etc. QED and all that.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Jan 21 2011, 08:12 PM) *
Negativ essence without the life supporting ware? Bad idea! But, I wonder what happens to this CZ when his vampire-chummer tries to infect him... Does the univers explode? rotate.gif


Technically speaking if he has 0 (or lower) essence he can't transform into a drake. He loses that power when his magic hits 0.
Glyph
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Jan 21 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Now, I'll check out the Dryad, but that seems like an odd concept. Not as odd as a Drake Dryad Cyberzombie, but still, odd.

Dryads have the Symbiosis quality, and honestly, I don't see being mentally connected to your home environment, and radiating a background count that spreads when you stay in one area for too long, as being that good of a combination. If you want Glamour, a normal elf with SURGE would probably work better.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 21 2011, 08:04 PM) *
Dryads have the Symbiosis quality, and honestly, I don't see being mentally connected to your home environment, and radiating a background count that spreads when you stay in one area for too long, as being that good of a combination. If you want Glamour, a normal elf with SURGE would probably work better.


This seems more in keeping with what I had in mind - inhumanly charismatic, despite (or even in part because of) his state. Still, it may not be necessary. Though I'm looking more into SURGE, to see what benefits I might reap. Also, could somebody run me through how to (theoretically) make a CZ with the Mage (or Mystic Adept, if it would be more optimal) quality? I would like to be able to Cleanse for myself, to keep the impact on the mage low, and to keep my profile low as well. Also, it'd be good to be able to mask my aura, for much the same reason. Beyond that, I'm still figuring out the whole magic system, so I'm not sure what else I could do.
Mardrax
It's not all about making an effective character though, is it?
If you're going to mostly ignore the negative aspect of hazing through cleansing, I think Symbiosis makes for a really interesting flaw. Kindof reminds me of the Promethean: the Created setting from nWoD. Not only messing up your environmment, but physically feeling it.

Agreed on it working better though mechanically though.
InfinityzeN
Oh sure you can make a mage or mystic adept CZ. The only problem is that your Magic is hard capped at 1 no matter what you do and your in a background count 4 which would mean your effective magic for casting spells or using adept powers would be -3. So no, it is not a good idea at all and pretty much a complete waste of points.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Jan 21 2011, 03:18 PM) *
Since there is something like 12 of such installations on the whole planet, each of them a Delta clinic with heavy-duty magic at hand (you need a Magical lodge of rating at least 12 for the cybermantic procedure), I'm not sure breaking in for the goods is a survivable option, as they are likely to be among the most heavily protected assets of their parent entity.


There's a mad doctor in one of the destroyed parts of LA, keeping up a gang practically made of CZs. I'm pretty sure he's not doing that from a delta clinic.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 21 2011, 08:25 PM) *
Oh sure you can make a mage or mystic adept CZ. The only problem is that your Magic is hard capped at 1 no matter what you do and your in a background count 4 which would mean your effective magic for casting spells or using adept powers would be -3. So no, it is not a good idea at all and pretty much a complete waste of points.


Well damn.

QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jan 21 2011, 08:27 PM) *
There's a mad doctor in one of the destroyed parts of LA, keeping up a gang practically made of CZs. I'm pretty sure he's not doing that from a delta clinic.


Where is this detailed?
Arab_One
The Steppin Wulfs, detailed in a few source books, operate out of LA and are rumoured to have negative essense. They have a mad doctor who designs and implants their wares who ran away from one of the Mega's.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Arab_One @ Jan 22 2011, 05:07 AM) *
The Steppin Wulfs, detailed in a few source books, operate out of LA and are rumoured to have negative essense. They have a mad doctor who designs and implants their wares who ran away from one of the Mega's.


Rumored is the keyword here. In my opinion it's more likely that he's a good yberdoc with access to some quality 'ware and some customization. Which means the gang he's supportint will be able to pack far more 'ware than what their essence could take with the sort of second hand crapware most gangers usually have to make do with.
Stahlseele
WHY would the Symbiosis be a Problem for the CZ? O.o
The BGC he creates overrides anything else in his vincinity and is aspected to him right?
So basically, he attunes his surroundings to himself correct? O.o
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Arab_One @ Jan 21 2011, 11:07 PM) *
The Steppin Wulfs, detailed in a few source books, operate out of LA and are rumoured to have negative essense. They have a mad doctor who designs and implants their wares who ran away from one of the Mega's.

The Surgeon General of Beverly Hills?




-k
Sephiroth
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 22 2011, 09:18 AM) *
WHY would the Symbiosis be a Problem for the CZ? O.o
The BGC he creates overrides anything else in his vincinity and is aspected to him right?
So basically, he attunes his surroundings to himself correct? O.o

Incorrect. It takes a very specific interpretation of Geomancy to be able by RAW to aspect one's Astral Hazing. It certainly does not come attuned to him by default.
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