So in addition to the Go Gangers game I'm playing in, I've been asked to join a 'Freaks' campaign that lost a player. By Freaks I mean Werewolves, Vampires, Ghouls, that sort of thing. I've already got the go ahead to play a CZ (in fact it was recommended by the other players) so I think that's what I'm gonna do. We're using Karmagen, and I have 1000 karma to build with and 500,000 in addition to the normal starting cash, for 'wares (the procedure is being given to me free).

I'd like to build a multi-threat character, and keep the dice pools around 16-20 (or less) as no one else has them higher than that. All I absolutely need to have, skill wise, are social skills, as I'm replacing their face. I should also have a reliable means of getting my meds.

I'm not familiar with the particulars of Karmagen, so if you'd care to enlighten me, I'll listen. I'm not sure quite what I can do with a CZ, as far as roles go, but I'm interested to learn.

Also, from a fluff perspective - I'm thinking of playing a CZ like the Gavin Fontain character presented (if briefly) in Augmentation, that is, one which has gained some small desire to continue to be. I will, however, necessarily be acting independently from the corp that created me, which brings up some interesting issues: how would a corp try and recover a rogue CZ? Would the necessary recovery expenses be worthwhile to the corp?

Further, what sort of problems will come of my being Dual Natured? And what exactly does it mean to be Dual Natured? Will my Astral Hazing cause problems for other characters (i.e. Vampires and Ghouls) in the party? Is there anything which can be done to attenuate this?

Cyberzombie face, now thats interesting. I guess I never pictured masses of machine and muscle with a soul forcefully tied to them as being all that charismatic.

Um... *speechless*

astral hazing reaches out for essence meters. so just stay away and remind them to not use any spell on you.

I don't remember if SR4 still applies the penalties SR3 used to apply to a cyberzombie's social attempts, but if the answer is yes it's going to be a problem.

As far as dual natured go, it means you'll be stopped by wards (though you can still bull your way through, but that'll warm whoever placed it that something's happening). It also means you're vulnerable to attacks from the astral, be they a spirit pumelling you in astral combat or a projecting mage tossing the odd mana spell at you. Which gives plenty of option, from the straightforward manabolt to the naughty control thoughts and it's relatives.

The astral pollution on't be too much of problem as long as you're on the move, but the longer the party stays somewhere the worse they'll be penalized. But the main problem will be that you aura will no longer look anywhere close to normal. The subzero essnce is bad enough on itself, but the magic anchoring the soul into what's close to a brain-dead body hooked on life-support machinery will stand out. Even if they don't identify the cause, anyone looking will see something's not normal.
As far as alleviating the problem, you'll need someone castng and either maintaining or anchoring an aura-masking spell, if such a thigns exists. Which will still leave you dual-natured, and odds are you' only be able to be disguised as some other kind of dual natured being.

Faints. I just finished reading "stranger souls" and I am struggling to picture Burnout as a face. Still at least you have your happy drug, so when you cannot crush the worthless scum in front of you, your happy drug will keep you content.

As a cyberzombie you have another problem : you need regular maintenance and a regular supply of hard to get drugs - 2.000 a month and Availability of 24. And forget having you or one of your teammates cooking them in the basement, they would need a chemical facility to do so (Arsenal, p. 157)

If you have gone rogue (which assume you were able to remove each and every tags, cortical bombs or other booby traps they put in the new you precisely to prevent that), those drugs are probably one of the easiest way for your previous corporate handler to track you. Alternatively, if they have a general idea of your location they can probably send spirits scour the astral seeking the taint left by your presence (if you happen to stay just a few days in the same location it's expansion will cover a whole city block unless you can have a mage friendly (and skilled) enough to continuously clean the mess you create using the Cleansing metamagic).

Wanna turn it up to eleven?
Look for Binky on these here boards *snickers*

I know, right? But they want me to play a CZ, and they need a face. At least I'm not a ghoul, amirite?



Yeah, this could be a problem. I just don't think 'Day Job' covers being a trip A's one-man-WMD, so I figured I'd have to be independent. Would they really put a Cranial Bomb in a CZ (probably, now that I think about it)? I mean, it's not like they're cheap as chips now is it? I understand there are significant issues with running a CZ character, but it does seem like an interesting opportunity, no?



What is a Binky and is he the stinky cheese man?

What happens when Essence drops below 0?
(Because, last I checked, a cyberzombie was someone who had 0 or less Essence*)

*Side note: its really hard to become a cyberzombie with the latest technology. I think as all delta-ware you can pick up EVERYTHING for about 5.6 Essence.

Orson Welles Voice-Over from the one true Transformers Movie: "Behold, Binky-Tron":
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=714247
http://squinkyproductions.deviantart.com/a...alypse-95924176

the other problem is that it'snot possible to make this character at chargen
Unless you GM just gives it to you.

Bone Lacing Titatinum
MBW 3
Muscle Aug: 4
Muscle Toner: 4
Orthoskin 3
Platelet Factories
Trauma Dampener
Cerebral Booster 3
Attention Co processor 3
Datajackx2

adds up to :3.5+0.8375

It's /hard/ to go negative with Delta grade

What do you do, if they want you to get pizza with a couple of d6 in your shoes?

I'd also like to play a CZ, and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask me to be a face.

As far as how difficult it is to make a CZ, especially at chargen, I do have 750,000 just for the 'wares and the procedure will be done at no cost to me, so do you think this is doable? And I presume the 'wares have to be Delta Grade? Also, how does Delta Grade Bioware interact with a Type 0 System? I was thinking about taking that quality, but I worry it might make becoming a CZ too difficult.

Type-O and Delta grade do not mix. You get no benefit for the delta grade

750,000 doesn't get you to cyberzombie.

Type-O and Deltaware . . that has been discussed ad hominem by now i think . .
You can read it either way . . if you wanna be sure though? Type-O and Beta-Ware.
Still good enough and there is NO way to read the rules that makes these two not work.

Also its really difficult to knock your Essence to 0 with delta ware.

Nothing in the rules says anything about needing Delta Ware. Here is a thread for you to check out bro. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...;hl=cyberzombie

Ah, yes, the do it yourself second hand cyberzombie, how could i forget about that ^^

Trying to find the thread where I built one. Think I had a $1m budget though. Nothing but standard grade 'ware.

Sorry, I didn't see this before. Thanks for the solid info.


How much would I need then? Remember, I've got that much just to buy the raw wares (and other gear), the procedure is being done on me free.


I'm actually on page three of that very thread right now.


I'll keep that in mind.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry837172
That is a build using 400BP and unlimited cash I did. Should give you a good idea.

You use the Absolute value of the Essence Score... a -4 Cyberzombie would have an Essence of 4 for the effect of the background count area...

I'll come right out and say this. I think you're fooling yourself if you think a CZ could possibly pull off being a face. In addition to the certainty of some form of mental illness which will likely prevent such a character from interacting normally with society, the prejudice of society against cyberzombies (as unnatural, monsterous killing machines), will likely prove just as crippling to any pretense of acting as a team's face-man.

Perhaps you can compensate for this weakness to a degree... possibly with more invasive surgery and augmentation. Keep in mind, however, that you will ALWAYS be working at a disadvantage when trying to make a cyberzombie into a social butterfly.

It'd be an interesting character, if not a good face... anymore. Tragic, in many ways, as his old contacts one by one stop calling him and he's slowly abandoned by the people he's done favors for in the past. Trying to stay sane, trying to care enough about anyone to keep the friends he still has... because eventually, the people who hung him out to dry will have been right to do so. Should appeal to the WoD player, anyway.

Well, if you are an elf, you can, with cyberzombie, get your charisma up into double digit levels . .
and then there's the pheromone-stuff bioware and such things too . .

First off, people with mental illness can be highly charismatic. The prejudice of society against cyberzombies is fair, I'll admit, but would it be greater than prejudice against a ghoul, nosferatu, or suchlike? I ask as the rest of the party consist of a Cyborg, a Banshee, a pair of Nosferatu, and a Vampire. Also, we're playing in Sarajevo (the group currently resides in the sewers/abandoned underground tunnels) which as I understand it isn't exactly civilization.

I was thinking about going Elf as well, which could get me pretty wicked charisma.

But why on earth do they want you play a CZ while needing a face? If you want a really freaky face character, play a Pixie mystical adept surged with Glamour. And when the drek hits the fan, hide yourself inside the drone body of your cyborg chummer.

This I couldn't answer. But I'd much rather play a CZ than a Pixie! And I figure if my base metatype is Elf, and my essence goes low enough, I'll be able to get pretty major charisma. And I may give off weird vibes to the mundanes, and if they're awakened but can't see my aura (like if the Nosferatu Mage can mask it) then I'm golden, right? Are cyberzombies immediately visually recognizable? If they've been getting their meds regularly?

One thing I don't think I saw anyone mention is that a Face doesn't always have to be a lovely individual... just being Intimidating as fuck can do wonders. I think a CZ fits that bill...

One thing I don't think I saw anyone mention is that a Face doesn't always have to be a lovely individual... just being Intimidating as fuck can do wonders. I think a CZ fits that bill...

Damn straight.

Actually, you may have good luck repurposing the Made Man quality. Just change the contact to someone else.

The fluff on cyberzombies says that all of their cyberware is likely to be delta grade. But for a PC with far more limited resources, I would get it all standard grade. Maybe your background could be that you are a more expendable experiment. And don't waste any qualities on anything that reduces Essence costs - you want to get a high negative Essence.

Cyberzombies can theoretically look like about anything - even cyberlimbs can look "normal". Keep in mind that their Attribute maximum bonus, combined with the rules for customized cyberlimbs, make cyberlimbs a very attractive option. For example, your elf, assuming a -4 Essence, would be able to get a customized cyberlimb with an Agility of 11 - before cyberlimb enhancements.

The trouble with your increased Attribute maximum for Charisma is that there aren't really any augmentations that boost it - unless your GM uses the optional rule for cosmetic surgery, where it can increase Charisma by up to +3.

I have run a Freaks campaign, and they can be very fun (Weretiger, Ghoul, Vampire, Cyber Zombie and an Ex-Bug City Fire Watch officer who was the scariest of the lot).
As has already been said, simply don't grade that ware. Simplly being able to go above 6 essense loss, along with the other benefits makes a CZ a powerful character.
As for the Face part, I think more of Ghost in the Shell than Robocop for this one. A purely human looking person who barely has an ounce of flesh left in their perfectly sculpted artificial bodies. They could look, move and act with awe inspiring grace and cunning because that's how they've been MADE to be. The Face CZ (he or she?) may not feel emotions the same way any more, but be able to fake them perfectly. Also adds an easy escape story, since a Face CZ is much more likely to be able to disappear than a hulking death machine.

Just my 2 pence.

That's what I was thinking - less full cyberskull/torso/arms/legs and more bioware, geneware, maybe lower legs (for hydraulic jacks and a nanohive) and such, and a bunch of headware. And why just go the street sammy route when you can go the optimized brain that's attached to an anthromorphic tank route? Too, a CZ who can speech the speechiest speech that e'er were speeched would have an easier time getting away - his backstory seems to be falling into place.

On the drugs situation, how hard are they to synthesize, given adequate facilities? I'm not trying to get around it, I just figure if that level of chemistry is within reach then I could maybe cook them myself, breaking into the labs to access the facilities to make my drugs.

Also, Arab_One, how did your Freaks game go? Any suggestions to make my playing more, uh, freaky?

I hope at least one of them is able to Cleanse, because otherwise most of their abilities are going to be severely crimped or even completely suppressed by your astral hazing - the cyborg is the only one unaffected.

For the drug situation, there is no indication of the difficulty to produce them.

If you plan to do them yourself you may face several hurdles :
- you need to figure out not only the active chemicals in them, but also the complete synthesis procedure
- you have to make sure the needed reagents are available, and those can get pretty exotic
- the processing time need to be short enough. If you need control of a facility for 48h then you are screwed, there is no way it would go unnoticed.
- the chemicals may degrade relatively quickly, meaning you need a fresh batch relatively often

But none of that is described anywhere, so it's up to your GM

I don't think a cyber-zombie could ever pull off being a face. The tragedy of having your soul ripped out of your body and then forcibly put back in is just too much. Also, being a face means (I think) you need to have the ability to take on multiple faces. Though this brings up the prospect of playing a schizophrenic character, I think this could be achieved in a much cooler way...


By playing an AI possessing an almost human looking droid. Then you have access to all these crazy facets of skillsofts AND the insane sociopathic thing that wants...no...NEEDS to interact with metahumanity...all the time.

If you want to get really crazy, maybe somebody finally invented that Elven Bio-droid. I'm not sure how out there your GM wants to go.

Elven Clone, with Stirrup System

I'll make sure the mage can Cleanse then. I was wondering, though, if I were a mage before the transformation, then my magic got kicked down to 1, and I initiate once, would I be able to Cleanse for myself? I'm not too familiar with how magic works...

And thank you for the information on the drugs. I'll have to work with my GM to work that situation out.

As to a CZ being a face - while it may strain belief, it's probably better than the Nosferatoi, the Ghoul, or the Cyborg trying, as I'll at least look (mostly) normal (ish).

Does anybody have a primer on karmagen?

Ostensibly, yes. If you then raise your magic to 2, you can even get another 1 essence worth of implants.

(Magic (2) - 1 -> 1, Max Initiations = Magic -> 1, Max magic 0 + Initiations (1) -> 1)

your magic would have gotten kicked down to 0, and you would have lost your magic rating entirely and be unable to get it back.

So no.

Unless you initiated to initiate level 2 before the procedure, and you raise your magic score to an 8, and took no more than 7 points of essence loss.

Becoming a CZ gives you a magic of 1, regardless of whether you had any beforehand or not. You can't raise it, and further essence loss has no effect on it either. I don't see anything in the rules that say you can't initiate if you were already a magic user, but you'd be hard capped at 1 initiation, since you can't raise your magic past 1. (Though, there's always the option of buying metamagics for karma straight out. I don't remember if that's an optional or official rule though.)

Last I checked 2 - 1 is 1, not 0.
(That is, 7 minus 6 is 1, not 0, because in order to have 2 Magic at 1 Essence, you've already lost 5)



You mean a level 1 initiate and 7 magic, and 6 Essence loss. 9.9

Ok, so concerning Cleansing and masking my aura - how hard would these be to do? Would a competent mage be able to deal with the issues of my astral hazing and BC of 4? Are those two things different? How would I go about hiding myself so the corp couldn't just track me down?

The Hazing IS the BGC of 4.
Underground should be enough to hide.
Also, what did you think of Binky?

I don't think there's any existing way for a character to mask another character's aura. Masking and extended masking only work on the initiate's own aura, and the only spell that even approaches what you're looking for is False Impression/Manascape, which probably wouldn't be a foolproof method and could likely be defeated by a good enough Assensing roll (or at least it seems that way to me; the spell doesn't actually have much listed as far as mechanics go).

What is Underground? And I thought "That poor creature, taken from its natural habitat and then turned into cheese!" But it's a cool concept, as far as thought exercises go. That's part of why I'm so stuck on playing a Cyber Zombie. I may not get the chance again, and frankly their psychology has to be so different and messed up that it will be a fascinating challenge to play.

Underground, tunnels, caves, bunkers, the sort of thing . .
Yah, i wanted to absolutely go and take the concept beyond the limits ^^

Well you certainly succeeded. Why would being underground help me hide? That is what I'm doing anyhow, actually, as the group currently lives in a warren of tunnels under Sarajevo, but I don't want to screw it up for the mage and the adept (at least, not make it too bad).

Oh, and would I be able to use a Microfac to create the drugs necessary to keep a CZ alive?

Finding Magic with Magic is harder if it's hidden under the ground, because the earth itself counts as a living organism and thus pretty much shields you from magic at least partially.
And of course from all kinds of sensors, including GPS and the such . .
And finding Cyberzombies with magic is harder on default. It's basically like looking for the silent spot in a sea of sound when looking for an enemy submarine.
The background count itself could be found, but that is hard too.
If you are somewhere with a BGC of 3, your own BGC of 4 does not stand out as much anymore i think . .

As long as you can feed the fab with the receipe and the needed ingredients, i don't see why it would not work.