Which is why I think a lot of very powerful magic users would be very low key. Sure you can flay the flesh from the bones of a lot of people, but there's a lot more people out there than you have time to do this. And you need to sleep and eat, and you know try to live a semi normal life right? Hunting magic users is a tried and true practice.

Ascalaphus, I like what you are doing. I like the fact that you are making solutions for problems, and trying to keep them simple. I may not agree with all of your answers, but that’s something that individual GMs can pick and choose based on their game and players.

To that end, I’ll add two more problems:

1) Mages and Samurai are fairly balanced in combat, but it is much easier to make a good mage than an equally good Street Sam (in combat).

2) Mages have access to a wide variety of absolute effects and versatile options in addition to combat goodness, which street sam’s don’t have. Examples of this are:

Mind Probe and Alter Memory (just adding mundane countermeasures does not make street sams more versatile. You could remove them entirely, but that doesn’t seem to be the design principle you are working under. You could also go with ‘high enough social skills are like Mind Probe and Alter Memory’, which might work if well balanced. At the moment, any amount of social skills does not completely replicate these spells (you can get close especially with the GM hand waving things, but that’s not the same as mechanical support).

Search Spirit Power: No amount of Agility is going to let you find people as easily as search (unless you have new house rules for driving around super fast and through walls or something).

@Ascalaphus
Do you have an easy solution for the fact that mundanes can have a big part of their gear taken away, while this is close to impossible to do with magical stuff, aside from foci?

A street samurai doesn't stop being deadly just because he has no guns. That said I agree "removing" a mage's capability is difficult, but not impossible. I use a lot of pressure based on payment for the job-sure you could go in guns blazing, but you won't get paid. Not every job is a silent, black bag operation. But not every job is the crap portrayed on trideos. It's pretty clear who ever is running your game Stahlseele needs to either hear your complaints, and make some changes-or is just not doing that great of a job.

The sam is sure a lot *less* deadly with no guns.

Depends on the Street Sam now doesn't it? But, yeah I follow you.

Mind you, we are still playing SR3, Samurai ain't boned as hard as Deckers and Riggers for example . .
Take a Deckers Deck away, and you have just taken about half to two thirds of his character.
Take a Riggers Deck/Drones/Vehicle (chose fitting) away and you have taken half to two thirds of his character . .

With the Samurai, of course, you can take his Weapons. But his Ware is built in, so not that easy.
And implanted weapons make it more or less impossible to disarm a samurai too, but who would willingly build something into his body that screams:
"i don't wanna be taken alive, you have to kill me to make sure i am harmless to you!"

I never meant to deny there are problems, I just wanted to turn the discussion in the more positive direction of Find Problem -> Find Solution.

Built-in weapons for Sams are a solution, to hinder taking away gear away. It makes disarming a Sam just as invasive as "disarming" a mage (often a squicky process). Of course, you can put a mage in Magecuffs (they're in Arsenal, I think - they detect when you manipulate mana, and then hit you with an electrical shock, interrupting your spell), and that's kind of disarming them.

There's fluff that in prison, mages are dosed full of psychotropic drugs to keep them from using magic. Maybe some of those drugs should be statted up.

Then of course, BGC resembles disarming mages. Or a sniper with a ready action to kill them as soon as they appear to be concentrating on a spell (the perception check is easy enough for a good sniper).

"Disarming" a mage tends to be more along the lines of suppressing them, rather than taking away stuff. But I think that's similar enough.

What's the goal? To stop a mage from casting spells at people? You pretty much just have to make sure he can't see or touch stuff. Shadowrun has a huge variety of ways to keep magical characters from doing their thing; they might not be as simple as "yoink," but they're not hugely complex, either.

I'd argue part of that problem has to do with Samurai, more than mages. The main things to fix would be:

Make cyberweapons not shitty. There's no reason that a cyber holdout pistol should be an Exotic Weapon rather than a pistol, that's stupid. Also, part of the problem is Cyberware Scanners aka Magic Find Absofuckinglutely Everything scanners that there's no real meaningful way for samurai to avoid. I would be inclined to allow Disguise to "hide" things from cyberware scanners (by making them look like something else) with higher grades of 'ware giving a bonus.

I agree with Umaro that the biggest problem is cyberware scanners and other security devices which do not allow the character to make any opposed roll. Also, using Blades for forarm blades, unarmed for shock hands, and exotic for other implant melee weapons seems unessesarly complicated. Just make Blades for all cyber-blades and unarmed for shock hands. I don’t see a balance issue with making cyber-feet spurs work with Blades.

Finally, reduce the availability on cyberweapons. The fact that everything larger than a Holdout Pistol is 14+ Avail increases the problem because a mage can start with a built in concealable weapon, and the street sam (who probably uses guns) has to give up 10 Capacity and 20R avail for a submachine gun. Start off by halving the capacity and availability.

That is part of a larger problem that cyberware needs a total rebalancing in terms of avail, cost and essence.

Yep, we've definitely had big threads about that issue. Still, until that massive overhaul is undertaken…

This. So much this. I have a big problem with this in SR4 in general, not just related to Mages versus Mundanes. It is impossible for Street Samurai to operate in Medium+/A+ neighborhoods anymore because of security. Used to be you needed a wand or a doorframe to scan someone for cyber. Now everyone within 15 meters of your RFID tag is scanned.

I have to say again to any who haven't tried it: Run your next game with next to no magical defenses or protection. You'd be surprised how much it tones down the game. Magical arms race actually makes mages more powerful than ignoring magic.

Well, he needs to use Bioware or betaware and those scanners will have a hard time.

The major problem is, in my opinion, that you need to counter mages with "special" cake all the time.
Be it counterspelling or be it the assensing mage.

And mages have in general a way to get around those obsticals. (Assensing is impossible if you got 5+ Initiations.)

It gets even worse, as Cheops said, because the mage will see the cyberware of the sam, while unable to "see" the magic of the mage.

Why you erase tags, get non-obvious mods, and have fake licences with decent back stories. I remember something from the Quote File about a runner trying to get a job at a corp as cover and was asked about his smartlinks in is hand. "Paranormal bounty hunter. Snow-moose."

No it isn't. Where did you get that Idea. It is damned hard, to be sure, but not impossible. All an assensing Mage needs is Hits equal to Assensing Table Target Threshold + Initiation Grades to properly Assense. The Grades raise the threshold that must be met (Assuming you have the Metamagics that allow you to hide things). Now, if you have A base target of 3 (Astral Signature) and the target has 6 Grades of Initiation, well, the asssensing Mage needs 9 Hits to penetrate the Masking/Flexible Signature. Hard, to be sure, but NOT impossible.

Please indicate the page and book where it says that assensing is impossible against a target with 5+ Grades of Initiation.

Could you explain what you mean in more detail?

I think he means a cyberware-scanner in a micro sensor package

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Has this been changed?
It was Intuition+Magic+Grade against intuition+ Assensing to see the true aura.


Well, it is not mentioned what happens in the case of a draw. So you have to look under "opposed Tests" which says, repeat the test or the defender wins if result is needed.
Yeah, it is not "impossible", the propability is just low. So someone will see through your disguise once in a lifetime. So what...

Yes, you can give every NPC assensing 6 and intuition 6 to have a good chance to do it. But those values do not fit the description.
Even a guy with a bunch of initiations and magic 8 won't probably have a natural intuition of 6 and assensing 6.
(Yes you may use spells to boost intuition the the augmented max, but this is also possible for the mage. )
And to overcome a dicepool which is about 20%-50% higher than your own, while a tie is a loss on your part... Well, lets say it does not happen very often...

(And before you get off on modifiers, those do not apply. The pools are explicitly written down.)

Easy Mage disarment....Blindfold him and an escort by two other mages. A street Sam at least still has his strength to fall back on. Though I do believe most shadowrunners come with a Wanted dead or really dead clause rather than a bring him in for questioning deal.

Your Quote is for Masking...

I believe Flexible Aura uses a Standard Assensing Test, but you must get the required hits from the table + the initiates Grade to see through the Flexible Aura. Can't be sure, as I do not have access to book right this minute. Pretty sure that works, though.

And not every "highly Experienced" mage has a Magic of 6+. The mage I am currently playing has a Magic of 3 (with 3 grades of Initiation, and Intuition 4). So, again, not so difficult to penetrate if ther opponent is professionally skilled. An Intuition and Magic of 5 each puts them on even footing (10 Dice each).

All things being equal, yes, the Initiate will win more often than not (Statistically)... After all, I have seen a DP of 20 generate NO successes, and a DP of 3 generate all hits.

Why magic is OP pretty succinctly:

Any toys mundanes can use mages can also use. In the new 4E mage friendly matrix verse even that realm isn't closed off to them. Cyber is the only pieces of gear that actually forces magic users to make careful decisions on build rather then throwing money at the problem and even then they have mitigating factors or a whole host of cyberware with gear duplication. (Smartlink, Trodes etc).

One skill to rule them all: A mundane wishing to expand their utility base must purchase additional skills (discounting skill wires, which without piracy are no longer viable and had their own built in drawbacks to start with). Skills get progressively more expensive the better you get at them. Mages on the other hand can just buy a new spell doing what they want to do with karma and go from zero effectiveness in an area to maximum natural effectiveness in it in one expenditure. A blaster mage who has never healed anyone in his life buys a heal spell and is suddenly 100% competent at it. A like street sam must start at first aid 1 and a medkit.

Outside of the realm of the matrix there is nothing that cyberware or gear can do that some form of magic can't duplicate, this combined with the above creates a real problem. Conversely there are things magic can do that ware cannot duplicate or at least not duplicate easily. Want to be faster, improved reflexes (the spell that does more to destroy game balance then any other in the game IMHO). Want to be tougher? Armor.

If you take a mundanes toys away they are always nerfed unless their your build specifically allows for it. A street sam dropped naked into a pit with an opposing troll finds his entire firearms group effectively zeroed out. A mage suffers no such limitations they are at 100% of their natural effectiveness baring things that would have already been in play in the area anyway (BC, Counterspelling etc).

All coutner-magic tactics come in one of three flavors 1) Require another mage. 2) Reactionary 3) Environment specific: In the first it's all about the magic run, in the second the mage has already got a spell off or you've ceded the advantage in some other form, In the third the moment you leave your awakened ivy FAB3 fogged fortress (which you will have to do at some point) all of it counts for naught.

Additionally counter mage tactics always run to binary states: You geek the mage first or otherwise selectively neutralize them. Players hate this and it's not a lot of fun for GM"s either as your either one shotting a guy every time or just devoting a lot of your time to carefully countering him.

Finally and not for nothing: Mages run almost purely on Karma. Mundanes run both on Karma and Nuyen and the latter has an upward ceiling either before you can no longer improve yourself or the question can reasonably be asked why your still running. In any case situations come up on occasion where you will have your money reduced (expenses, double crosses, lost gear and vehicles etc) but you will by conceit of this being a roleplaying game you will almost always get karma.

So how often are people getting all their hitech toys taken away? Just curious since there's so much mage hate how often do people really get hosed?d if you hate it so much, why are you still playing that sort of game?

A mage has his limitations. When you cast Armor, you glow and thus can't be sneaky while the spell is on you. Casting Improved Reflexes and Armor would mean having to substain two spells. Walk into a meet with a Johnson with spells raised and you are asking for trouble. It should also be noted that any experienced oposition that your shadowrunners may come up against knows how great a mage is, so the mage getting hit by a troll with a huge gun shouldn't be unexpected. Depending on the mages spell list, he could come into some trouble against drones.

Also to increase the damage value, a Street Sam just needs to buy some higher grade ammo, where a Magical character is limited to what he can actually resist the drain for casting. Also don't forget how important edge can be. Magical characters have to spend their karma on spells, so perhaps where the Street Sam really shines is in his edge attribute.

Pretty often actually: There's a cyberware scanner at the entrance to anywhere important, drones arn't viable for all situations, most malls and office buildings won't let you bring your assault rifle in as a carry piece etc. Sure there's a way to get past these problems but it always requires varying hoops and almost always requires a trade off. By comparison the absolute worst a mage might face getting through security is having to recast spells again later before setting out to do their things, the only alternative are oppressive background counts which are a minimal solution at best.


Nothing forbids a magical character from having a high edge. The common conceit here seems to be that mages are more karma intensive then other builds. While that may be true it's also true that they get more out of that Karma then other classes. A mage can theoretically do quite well in life with four things: High drain attribute, High Spellcasting Skill, High Summoning Skill, High Magic Rating. Once they've achieved those things, which are actually pretty do-able in character generation everything else is a gratis. In fact a high drain attribute can make up for many other things.l

Yeah, I like to take a more positive view of things. Magic has got problems, problems that should, and probably can, be fixed.




Mages pay for those toys too, and the price tends to be higher, since anything that costs Essence costs a mage "double". I'm not so happy about a lot of the non-Essence gear either, and I think that was a bit of a mistake on the development side.




Skillwires should be affordable. Activesofts should be. Actually, I think it should be possible to use Activesofts on-demand; instantly available when you need it. And pay-per-use; say 10 per point per use or so. So that in the sudden case that you need to parachute-jump, you can, without breaking the bank. That'll let you play a hyper-flexible Pretender, which I think cyberpunk deserves.

Anyway, implant-Attribute boosters do a good job of making mundanes very good at skill checks. Muscle Toner 4 on a decent Agility means that you're basically competent at every Agility-linked skill that you put a rank in to avoid defaulting.
A Sam that picks up Cerebral Booster 3 and a R6 Medkit suddenly has Log+9 dice to heal people, which isn't too shabby for a guy who never cared about anything but gunfire before.





There aren't all that many things magic can do that tech can't simulate somehow. And while there may be a spell for almost everything, an actual mage tends to know fewer than 20 spells.




Actually, it's childishly easy to "disarm" a mage:


They cost 1000 and have Availability of only 5. Of course, you're free to replace the taser with a bit of C4 if you like.

Also, your comparison isn't quite correct; Sams can get implant weapons, which are hard to disarm. I think the implant weapon rules need fixing (not Exotic, for a start, Availability < 13, second, and the possibility to be disguised as something legal). But they're available, in theory at least. Just put a poisoned needle in your pinky, or get venom-spitting bioware (hard to detect, curiously enough).

Complete disarmament in SR is a farce; I think many GMs will shy away from actually removing implants. Any enemies willing to remove implants should also be willing to implant a glowmoss-triggered cranial bomb in a mage, or the GM just isn't being equally vicious to both sides.

NPCs who deny entry to Sams with implant weapons should do the same with mages. After all, they're always armed. But how can they identify the mage, you ask?
* These are shadowrunners. Why the Sam is there is obvious. Same for the hacker. So who is this shifty guy with no apparent job? Maybe a mage. Unless he's good enough at social skills to convince you otherwise (and since you're using Empathy, Lie Detection and a socially-skilled doorbitch, that's a very hard roll for Logic/Intuition mages).
* Is there a SIN (of dubious authenticity) on file matching this person, with a license to practice magic? If the PC doesn't have a license, that can be bad. If he does, the local yakuza will know, because they're smart enough to bribe a bureaucrat at the Department of Arcane Craziness to get the list.
* Johnson will know if the team he's hiring has a mage.
* Powerful mages make a name for themselves. Spirits talk. They get seen in the Astral while doing patrols. Their own Warded home gets noticed by other mages. Word gets around.
* Hire a parasecurity company to loan a Bound spirit to assense people.
* Put up Wards on surprising places in your building, then watch on the cameras for people fiddling with Foci, that either got deactivated by surprise, or if they're re-casting spells after passing through.
* Casting a spell of serious Force is hard to conceal from a bouncer with good Perception (which is a job skill, and of course implants...)

Note that none of these require the NPCs to be Awakened themselves. Just to be people of some consequence. Who cares that the street bum didn't see it coming? They wouldn't stand a chance against the Sam either.




I don't care if the mage auto-wins against low-end opposition. So would the Face, Hacker or Sam. Against serious enemies, the player gets what he's got coming for him. If he's the hotshot mage that's left several smoking craters behind, then he'll be first target, and he did it to himself.

Good defenses are based on good information. Magic isn't all that invisible if you know what to look for, and a real tough stronghold (like a secret R&D lab) sees the mage coming from a long way off, especially if he gives himself away with heavy magic. If he's really subtle, then the player deserves to get away with a bit more.

Though I do think there should be a bit more clever ways of arranging magic resistance for mundanes, that doesn't require another mage. But you can go a long way with glowmoss and a sadistic engineer.




This can become a problem. I think the GM should be careful about how to handle gear loss/gains, and perhaps institute some sort of cunning cash/karma exchange program. Of course, the use that mundanes get from karma shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant either.

So wait your argument is that mages are equally as weak as a mundane in a no gear situation if you have the ability to also bind and gag them? Likewise if you have implanted weapons (which will show up on most weaspon scanners and have troublesome legality codes) you are by definition building for a situation where your without your primary weapon set. Likewise while a sam might find the essence and money for the cerebral booster .6 essence and 30,000 nuyen on top of their one rank in the skill. That's not a spur of the moment purchase, that's going and an opting for brain surgery.

Dropped naked is a bit of a logical fallacy but even under "normal" Shadowrun disarmament (walking with what's street legal) a mage really shines because while the sam is working with what's concealable or appropriate for the security level their working under the mage always has their spell compendium up to and including flight and panther canon class damage.

OK, let's look at these for a minute.
1) Combat
Not sure where you are coming from here. I tend to find the sammie with good AGI, Automatics skill and a smartlinked Ingram SMG take down opposition plenty effectively; with wide bursts he can often take down more than one opponent per action, and he can keep shooting until the cows come home or he runs out of ammo. Your typical sammie is also going to have lots of armour and a good soak pool to counter pot shots the opposition might plug at him.
Compare this to the mage overcasting stunball: he might get a lot of opponents with the spell and only suffer minor drain, but then he's gotta spend 10 combat rounds or so cleansing his astral signature. He keeps doing this and drain will take its toll (especially if you use the optional drain increase rules and like me house rule overcasting drain to be unhealable without a full clinic); opposition might duck for cover, excluding them from LOS etc. The BP drain on his Magic stat, spells etc also mean your average SR mage will have worse armour and soak pool than the sammie should the opposition get to counter-attack, and they will more than likely be out to geek the mage first.

2) Versatility via other spells, spirits
Yes, it is true that for 5 karma a mage can add spells to his arsenal, and some of these can be good, but a lot of these spells will require skill use to back them up if the GM is doing his job. For instance, Improved Invisibility may help a mage sneak around, but that mage is still going to have to make an Infiltration roll to get past the guards, and the spell won't stop them hearing him if he makes a bad roll; also, the security guard who just happens to have sprung for ultrasound could ruin the poor mage's day.
Mind Probe and Alter Memory are good, then again a sammie with Intimidation (spec Interrogation) and a dose of laes can do a similar job, if not quite as effectively.
Not so sure on Spirits Search power as we don't really use it much in our game, but I imagine wards and patrolling spirits can help counter this.

In the game I GM the sammie is much better than the mage at taking down mooks. Then again, I play the opposition intelligently and strongly discourage overcasting as SOP at my table. Through spells and spirits the mage does get a boost to versatility, but then again mundanes can use bioware and karma to diversify their skillset while the mage only takes limited ware (to limit impact on essence) and tends to sink a lot of karma into increasing Magic and Initiating. YMMV.

@Midas
Mages are only good in combat if you follow a very specific build.
Stunball is great, untill a GM starts testing LOS and is not affraid to make a random check if somebody has taken full cover or where the mage looks.

But the second you get yourself a possession mage, most of your problems go away. (Huge dodge pool, huge soak pool and hardend armor...)
Or you could just stay astral...


You can do stuff with those two spells, which is far, far beyond the scope of Intimidation. (It is not even in the same universe.)

The R6 Medkit plus 1 rank in First Aid and a Specialty in Combat Trauma costs barely more than a Heal spell, for roughly the same effectiveness rate, and with the possibility to really scale upwards if you invest in skill/Activesoft and Logic.

While there aren't too many Logic skills unless you use the optional Attribute+Skill hacking rules, there's still a bunch of them, and the Cerebral Booster is a blanket bonus to them that's still pretty affordable. Comparable to the versatility of investing in Magic, really.

It gets even better with Agility. A typical Sam has an Agility of 7-9, with extremes going even higher. If he puts 1 rank in all Agility-linked skill groups, he's become totally versatile.

Yeah, they nerfed Activesofts, and they shouldn't have. If you ignore the nerf, a Sam with skillwires is capable of being good at almost everything.

---

So, no-gear/legal-gear situations. Personally, I enjoyed the scenes in the Godfather with the gun hidden in the toilet. There are a bunch of weapons you can smuggle around in Core and Arsenal; most of them good only for assassinations up close, but in a high-security environment, that's probably what you came for anyway.

There are legal weapons available to Sams that work totally fine. Tasers have decent damage, use Pistols skill and are totally legal. I think they're good enough in environments where you don't need rifle ranges. Perhaps with some Laes slap patches to make sure you don't have to worry about witnesses.

I don't think PCs get disarmed all that often involuntarily. There's a good chance they'll fight themselves to death first, especially if their gear is highly customized; it's the D&D phenomenon that it's better to start a new character with level-appropriate gear than continue with one that's been stripped. This plays on in the back of people's minds; they don't allow themselves to be taken prisoner all that easily.

Anyway, if you're disarming PCs, either voluntarily or involuntarily, then slapping magecuffs on the mages is pretty easy. The cuffs are available and not absurdly expensive. You can just demand that the mage wears them while meeting the yakuza boss, to avoid "misunderstandings", while the Sam checks his guns at the door.

Yes, mages can always carry their entire arsenal, and that's a nice benefit. But if they use that arsenal in a high-security area, they're painting a bullseye on their face.

Mages get a lot of rope to hang themselves with. They're a "class" that tends to raise the stakes, and if they do, they have to live with the consequences. I don't think GTMF is a bad thing; if you choose to play an obvious blaster mage, you'll live fast, die young and leave a big crater. Nobody forced the player to draw aggro, he did it to himself. If he didn't, it'd be the sniper or the troll with the panther cannon getting geeked first.

Just to jump into the "bound and gagged" routine. I'd say mages are still a step up but this is more for Role playing. Afterall everything being equal the spell slinger will almost certainly have a higher will and intelligence (or whatever you call that in 4th ed) and just in general have better stats than the average person. The mage stripped of her powers and lets have her in at lerast jeans and t-shirt, still has knowledge and experience beyond the average joe.

Even more so the mage stripped of her powers is still going to be far more able to function than a street sam stripped of her cyber-eyes/limbs/memory all shut down leave the mage a potentially parapalegic wreck, a mage without magic is still functional as a person.

Doesnt this argument work for every shadowrunner?
Even with nothing you still got contacts and ana ccount on shadowlands who may help you to get onto your feet again somehow.
Unless you REALLY fucked it up.
But even then you should have your 20k Y emergency reserve in a black bank account with password access ...

no because htis discussion is about magic users vs mundanes and as i pointed out a street sam stripped of cyber is potentially like a car up on blocks

First off, you not seeing the problems I describe because you are using house rules. I am not sure if your house rules are exactly what the game needs, but I am glad they work for you, I’m still not sure what I want in a fix. Secondly, I think an important advantage that was not mentioned is a Street Sam’s advantage is that they can easily get a 12+ initiative compared to a mage (which has a much harder time). Thirdly, you forgot the importance of tacnet in giving shooters +4 to hit. Finally grenades are a pale immidation of stunball, and street sams are sad that they cannot AoE as effectively.

Basically, yes you can build equally effective mages and street sams in combat. The problem is a new player can make a fine mage really easily with magic 5, stunbolt, willpower 5 and spellcasting 6 (just by buying up the things that seem important). OTOH a new street sam player may not realize that cyberware armor, tacnets, and initiative enhancers are really important.

As far as armor goes, I agree that cyberware armor stacking with worn armor is an important balancing factor for mundanes and mages. A mundane can have up to 8 armor just from obvious hands and legs, and could go to 12 with partial limbs. I would like to hear about what soak pools you see, in the SRMs I play our mages usually end up with 20-30 soak dice and street sams 30-40.

I’ve never seen astral signature be a problem in SRM. If you win the fight, usually you can cleanse the signature, or you can fix that problem with metamagics.

Your optional drain increase rules may nerf mages depending on what you consider a “full clinic”. You can fit a portable clinic in a vehicle which does’t help so much. I do like the idea of people ducking behind cover, because street sams excel at shooting through cover which leads to an excellent reliance between street sams and mages. .



Remember that a Mage can also summon a spirit to provide concealment, which the street sam can’t do. He can also stay in the car and use concealment from safety on an infiltration specialist. He can contribute to the parties sneakiness in a way that a street sam can’t.

Interrogation is good, but it’s not Alter Memory. Laes just deletes memories, and doesn’t change them. OTOH I see Mind Probe as a way of skipping the interrogation step (since you can probe unconscious people and keep retrying till you succeed).

Search works like this: Magic + Intuition (5, 10 min) extended test. The threshold is +kilometers if more than 1 km away. If you use the concealment power (another mage, and not something a street sam can do), it’s minus magic to their dice pool. If you use a mana barrier, it’s –barrier’s force.

So wards do nothing, but yes other spirits can help you (specifically one which uses Concealment on the target). The problem is that street sams don’t have a quick way to find people/places/things and you have to be a mage to defend against it. It’s not that there are no defenses, it is that there is no corresponding street sam power.

Great, now I got the picture of a Human with one arm being held up by cinderblocks, crying from empty eye sockets and crying for help to his Troll buddy who left him parked at the side of the building as he went into the Ork Underground.

Certainly, there are broken parts about mages, and some things on the mundane could be streamlined, but let's try to keep a positive frame of mind and look for problems to solve instead of reasons to hate mages.

Yes, that means house rules. Either resign yourself to broken rules or work out how to fix them.

* Actually removing cyber: yeah, that hurts a Sam. But if you remove a mage's lungs, that hurts too. You have to be fair in your comparisons. By the time a PC is subject to involuntary surgery, he's "lost"
anyway.

* Concealment: that power is broken, and we all know it. Although actually the nastiest part is how it also hides you from magical detection, so it's biggest comparative advantage in in mage vs. mage. But it should definitely be fixed.

* Mundane AoE: needs some fixing, true. Since you can make grenades wifi-controlled, it should be way easier to do pinpoint airburst explosions. Unfortunately, the current damage multiplication in enclosed spaces would really get of out hand then. This is probably why fireballs don't do that.

* Search: isn't that a bit overestimated? 10 minutes per check is a long time in a tactical situation. In that time a hacker could have done a lot more.

But Stripping Cyber is not the same as removing Gear. Stripping Cyber is analogous to Forcibly Implanting a Mage (to remove Magic). It is rare for cyber to be stripped. My Prime Runner notwithstanding.

This is why you have a GM. He should be helpiing new players to not forget such things.



Never once seen these types of pools for Mages or Sams. The Armor loadout at our table sits around the 8-12 range. So, your Trolls are rolling the 20-24 Range, while most other characters are rolling with 12-16 Dice.



Whether Signatures are an issue in SRM is questionable. It is always an issue at our table, however. Often, there is just not enough time to cleanse your Signatures in a running gunfight. Flexible Signature comes in handy here, as long as you are willing to limit your spell Force to your Initiate Grade or lower.



I think the premise was a Medkit Rating 6, not a mobile Clinic.



If the members of the Team are relying upon their mage to provide concealment and cover, they deserve to die. EVERYONE should be providing such things for themselves. After all, Chameleon Suits are just as good as a Rating 4 Spirit Concealment Power, most of the time.



You do realize that a Ward sets up a Mana barrier, Right? Being behind a Ward is the easiest way to foil the Search power. It also provides Bonus Dice to resist a Spell (Any Spell IIRC) cast through the Ward. Seems like a Mana Barrier to me. As for Corresponding Street Sam Power. Ask the Hacker to do it. Probably be a lot faster than a Spirit using the Search Power, and it is not affected by Concealment at all...

I love how no one ever brings up multi-casting in these discussions. It's like it doesn't exist.

I also like that Shapechange gets completely ignored in the infiltration and GTMF discussions.

Multicasting is indeed a problem, especially double-dipping the power focus. Actually, I did mention it a few pages up; I advocate not double-dipping.

Shapechange is pretty cool, but in practice the need to be within 2 points of Body from the form you want to assume is quite (reasonably) limiting.

It's a limit, but it's not a good limit. That spell is all kinds of nuts, half wildly overpowered, half confusingly worthless.

Shapechange is, in my opinion, one of the most incredibly powerful spells in the game, in terms of its utility. Biodrones can emulate a small portion of the possibilities, but nothing like the whole. This Shapechange issue has always existed, of course, although it got vastly more noticeable with the advent of spell locks/sustaining foci. I just try not to use it too much.

Multicasting works okay. The character I play has performed it a few times, though not as a common practice. I typically do so during Ritual Spellcasting, thoguh, and not in dynamic Spellcasting situations. Would really like to have a Power Focus, but oh well... Maybe I will eventually get my Ally Spirit...

The character I play uses 5 Spells for the Shapechange issue. Custom Metatype Form Spells, with Average Stats, and +1 Attribute point to spend into Physical stat per Hit. They work quite well. Limited Stat Boosts, with More drain than Critter Form, and the requirement to purchase each Form's Spell seperately. I cast it at a Force 3 to allow me similar stats in all forms to ease the Book Keeping a bit. I can hit every Form, thoguh My Trolls look a bit weak, as they are minimum statted for their metatype in Body and Strength. Even Still, unless you have Flexible Signature and Masking, well, even multiple forms do not help much to hide who you are.

I also Like Critter Form for certain Animals, and the drawbacks are pretty significant. It works out well too.

This entire thread assumes the player playing the magic user is competent, and willing to and interested in the various min-maxing scenarios people have thrown out. In my opinion a lot of this could be pretty easily resolved at the table-as a GM if I see something unbalancing the game to the point where the other players aren't enjoying themselves, then I fix it.

That said a lot of the discussion makes me happy I have the players I have.

I Agree with you Paul. Most, if not all, abuses can be curtailed before game play even begins. And like you, I am very happy I play with the People I do at our table.

Multicasting does not cause any problems if you do not allow to add any kind of bonus "after" dividing the pool but apply stuff like visibility modifier and wound modifiers before... I think most of the trouble with multicasting is coused by some munchkin way of reading the rules...

Yes, I agree a GM cam help new players because Street Sams are harder to build than mages. Just because a GM can mitigate the problem does not mean there is no problem however. We are in fact, discussing strategies for HOW a GM can mitigate the problem.



No, the term he used was Full Clinic. A Medkit Rating 6 would make his houserule much less effective (discouraging overcastting),



Rating 4 Concealment Power and Chameleon suits stack. The team should be relying on everyone to pull their weight, which means the street sams bring the right gear and infiltrators have the right stats, and mages provide magical concealment. Again you merely reinforce my thesis of “this is something street sams can’t do”. Just because a street sam shouldn’t rely upon concealment doesn’t mean they can provide it.

Also, I thought a GM should be helping players who have this problem, not killing off their characters. This seems passive aggressive.



You are right Wards set up a Mana Barrier. I was thinking the specific Spell Mana Barrier, but upon closer reading Wards also have a Mana Barrier Component. I was wrong.

Please explain how hackers can locate an individual. I am not aware of any action beyond Traceroute which takes hours and has a higher threshold.

Sorry, must have missed the reference. I saw "Rating 6 Medkit" and just went from there.



But they should not NEED to provide it. If the Mage NEEDS to provide Concealment, then something is wrong. There are much better things a Mage can be doing.



Not sure what you mean here... Yes, if the GM is doing his job, then the Characters will be able to provide for themselves most of the time. My statement was to indicate that IF the MAGE is CONSTANTLY providing such services as Concealment, then something is likely wrong.



Where do you get that it takes HOURS to Trace Someone on the Matrix? Everyone is likely Connected 99% of the time, especially SINners. Use the Trace User Action. Granted, You will need to find the Correct Person (Use the SCan Function to generate a list of all Active Nodes (It is automatic, after all, within the Mutual Signal Range of your Device), and then Search for Hidden Nodes to complement the List (Which could also include stuff Outside Mutual Signal Range, but still connected to the Matrix - The Mesh is a wonderful thing); Then use the Browse Function to "Find" the correct Node (The Character's 'Link)). These are COMPLEX Actions with Extended Thresholds. Once you have traced them to within 50 Meters. Activate their Onboard GPS (Most Comlinks have them after all) and you now have them to within 1 Meter or so. The rest should take care of itself. The Hacker will likely have his target before the Spirit even gets his First Search Roll.

I agree with this in general. My problem with Shadowrun over the years, and more so with 4th edition, are the "surprise!" moments that can happen with shitty rules. A lot of the problems with magic are things that pop up during play that we then have to hit with a nerf bat. SR4 was a big step away from balance between mages and mundanes.

Basically I'd like to hit a point with SR where there are no trap options in character creation and no accidental god-beings.

@Tymaeus: Trace User only gets you their location within 50 meters which is most of a city block whereas Search tells you precisely where they are. Given the high-density construction of most dystopic settings that could be a big difference...

Yes, Trace User gets you within 50 Meters... Then all you have to do is Trigger their GPS, and now you are at 1 Meter. Why does everyone ignore that one. If the 'Link has GPS (and the majority do), you can get within 1 Meter of them for pinpinting locations.