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Machiavelli
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 03:49 PM) *
1) Well, it's -0 for you, because presumably you use the focus for yourself, and then -2 for each individual person beyond yourself. This is much better than the penalty for putting your chameleon suit on yourself and someone else. wink.gif

2) If you were a professional criminal, would you take a job you couldn't do, full of opposition that completely outclassed you? If you were hiring someone to do something illegal, would you hire someone that couldn't do the job? Now, that fit's never going to be perfect, and sometimes you have to run away or whatever, but as a general rule, people should get and take the kinds of jobs they're qualified for.

3) A hit is a 5 or 6 on a die; a success is the actual thing you count for effects. ["Note that scoring one or more hits does not necessarily equal success—it is possible to score hits but still fail a test (if you don’t score enough); see the explanation of tests further on." SR4a, p62.] But it couldn't possibly matter less, I just wasn't sure what you meant.

4) So you're getting 2 or 3 hits on 12 dice? That's highly irregular!

5) Oi! That's a major change in SR4. That absolutely changes the dynamic of Masking. I don't think it makes Shapechange impractical - although it places a serious ceiling on what sorts of beings you can use it around! - but it absolutely changes the situation. Good looking out: I hadn't noticed the rule had changed [and it hasn't come up in our game, yet, since we've no one in SR4 capable of Masking!].

6) They absolutely do. Forensic trace and ballistic evidence is everywhere. SR4 doesn't make much of it, but if you've got a copy of Lone Star, there's some good material in there about forensics in Shadowrun.


1) THIS definitely makes it better....NOT!!!

2) If i would be a criminal in reality, i would do the job i am capable of. But i am a criminal in SR, and therefore i do the job the GM gives me. I pointed out the example with Ghost Cartels.

3) nitpicking

4) my dice donīt care if their result is irregular. ^^

5)
CODE
To detect auras concealed with Extended Masking, a character
need only make the usual Assensing + Intuition Opposed
Test against the masking initiate’s Intuition + Magic + initiate
grade.


6) correct, but the mage also leaves these traces and ADDITIONALLY the traces from his signature. The sam can change the weapon after the run, put in another barrel or use caseless ammo. The mage doesnīt have this option. He can only take an advanced metamagic and ever these one can be looked through. And most of the time, you donīt have the time to stand around for several rounds to cancel your signatur, nor are you stupid enough to switch on astral sight (that is needed for that) while somebody might be waiting in astral space to give you a present in form of a manabolt.
Irion
@Machiavelli
QUOTE
Yes, you really have a problem. He is well built, he knows the rules and he is mighty.

Not really...

@NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE
Well, in my group the sam reliably kills 1-2 enemies per ip, and the mage (magic 6, spellcasting 6, combat spec, combat mentor, power focus 2) wipes the floor with non-drone opposition (overcasting stunball) - 4 times per turn, while being invisible. After 2 sessions i asked him to tone down a bit, because it was no fun for the others when he took out the opposition alone, and no fun for him when i gave the opposition a counterspelling expert (initiated shapeshifted mage with masking, shielding shielding focus 4, masking focus 4).

Ok, taking down this mage without magical support.
First: BC 1.
This will drop his magic by 1, his powerfocus by 1 and his sustained increased reflexes probably by 1 two. (If has only 4 (maximum usable force), he will be left with three passes)
So his dicepool is dropped to 5+6+2+1=14 and he only has 3 passes left.

Next stop: Poor lightning condition.
Just take partial light. It can me negated with lowlight vision, which fits into any kind of glasses. (But MAGES can't use them)
If he has low light vision for any reason, you probably have to upgrade to full darkness. (Still not a problem for any kind of "mundane" Runner or security guard.)

This are again-2 dice or even -6 dice.
So he drops down to 12 dice. (He can switch to astral vision and only get -1 due to BC)

Last but not least: Make the opposition see.
Go to page 324 in the corebook. Take googles and add Ultrasound and Vision enhancement 3. If you are a "cheater" you may add contact lenses with low light vision. (all in all it costs under 1.4k and has an availability of 12. (If you can go beyond, take smartlink)
Ultrasound makes invisibility useless.

in order to be really nasty..
Check if he can actually see everyone in the radius of the spell. They might have taken cover, are not in his view and so on. This calls for an edge test on their side.
NiL_FisK_Urd
But you can have
1. Astral Chameleon - your signature only lasts half as long
2. Flexible signature - your signature lasts [initiate grade] hours less

Combined, you do not leave a signature on spells with a force of [initiate grade*2] or [initiate grade*2+1] (if you round down for Astral Chameleon)
Machiavelli
Yes....again theory. IF i would play a mage specialized in "the hidden way", i would have these skills. Do you have them? Do you want to spend karma to initiate to get the advanced metamagic Flexible Signature? You know that masking is prerequisite? This means you have to initiate 3 times, first masking, then extended masking and flexible signature....and you donīt have all the other more important metamagics already. Theory.
NiL_FisK_Urd
@machiavelli:
flexible signature is a basic metamagic, it is in the corebook ...
And everyone sees the "more important" metamagics according to the playstyle of the table. If you are hunted down or placed under heavy surveillance when someone sees that you are a mage, (extended) masking/flexible signature becomes more important than centering or any other metamagic. And yes, my mystic adept is working to get "flexible signature" as second metamagic.

QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 5 2012, 04:31 PM) *
@NiL_FisK_Urd

Ok, taking down this mage without magical support.
First: BC 1.
This will drop his magic by 1, his powerfocus by 1 and his sustained increased reflexes probably by 1 two. (If has only 4 (maximum usable force), he will be left with three passes)
So his dicepool is dropped to 5+6+2+1=14 and he only has 3 passes left.

Hits the adept harder than the mage.
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 5 2012, 04:31 PM) *
Next stop: Poor lightning condition.
Just take partial light. It can me negated with lowlight vision, which fits into any kind of glasses. (But MAGES can't use them)
If he has low light vision for any reason, you probably have to upgrade to full darkness. (Still not a problem for any kind of "mundane" Runner or security guard.)

This are again-2 dice or even -6 dice.
So he drops down to 12 dice. (He can switch to astral vision and only get -1 due to BC)

Elf with SURGED thermo vision - nerfs him no more than the opposition
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 5 2012, 04:31 PM) *
Last but not least: Make the opposition see.
Go to page 324 in the corebook. Take googles and add Ultrasound and Vision enhancement 3. If you are a "cheater" you may add contact lenses with low light vision. (all in all it costs under 1.4k and has an availability of 12. (If you can go beyond, take smartlink)
Ultrasound makes invisibility useless.

Yeah, but if you cast through a window ultrasound is useless - and normal corp guards, LS beat cops and gangers usally don't run around with ultrasound and radar sensor. Also, ultrasound is affected by concealment.
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 5 2012, 04:31 PM) *
in order to be really nasty..
Check if he can actually see everyone in the radius of the spell. They might have taken cover, are not in his view and so on. This calls for an edge test on their side.

And they must not be surprised ... but the last is the most viable against such spells.
Machiavelli
QUOTE
@machiavelli:
flexible signature is a basic metamagic, it is in the corebook ...
And everyone sees the "more important" metamagics according to the playstyle of the table. If you are hunted down or placed under heavy surveillance when someone sees that you are a mage, (extended) masking/flexible signature becomes more important than centering or any other metamagic. And yes, my mystic adept is working to get "flexible signature" as second metamagic.
Hah, you are right. But it doesnīt change the point. It is an additional initiation.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Or 15 Karma if you use the optional rule of buying a metamagic.

Also, one thing with AOE Attacks: Mundane AOE attacks seem to attract SWAT/HTR/Military Responses because of the use of military hardware (grenades, rocket launchers, etc.) which is normally not subtly, whereas a stunball does not make any sound except of falling people. Gas attacks are also tricky, because most combat gases are either very expensive, have a long duration until they work, or leave visible traces like clouds etc.
Machiavelli
Correct. SNS-ammo is also quite silent and brings down your enemies as well. Stungrenades create a odor- and colorless gas. So no problem with that. Money really ainīt the problem A gas grenade is 20 bucks plus the chemicals cost.

QUOTE
CS /Tear Ga s
Vector: Contact, Inhalation
Speed: 1 Combat Turn
Penetration: 0
Power: 5
Effect: Disorientation, Nausea, Stun Damage
Commonly referred to as tear gas, CS gas is an irritant that affects
the skin, eyes, and mucus membranes, causing them to burn and water. It
also stimulates a physiological panic response: increased heart rate, shortness
of breath, and so forth. Washing thoroughly with soap and water can
remove CS from the victim’s skin, thus ending the duration of the nausea
prematurely. CS gas becomes inert after 2 minutes of contact with the air.
= nasty stuff. Cost: 20

QUOTE
Nausea Ga s
Vector: Inhalation
Speed: 3 Combat Turns
Penetration: 0
Power: 6
Effect: Disorientation, Nausea
Used as a riot control agent, this gas causes nausea and a crippling
need to vomit. Nausea gas becomes inert after 2 minutes of contact
with the air.
= even more nasty. Cost: 25

QUOTE
Neuro-Stun
Vector: Contact, Inhalation
Speed: 1 Combat Turn
Penetration: 0
Power: 10
Effect: Disorientation, Stun Damage
This colorless and odorless knockout gas is used for emergencycontainment
conditions. Neuro-Stun comes in different concentrations.
Some become inert after only 10 minutes of contact with the
air; others become inert after only 1 minute. Wind and other environmental
conditions may disperse the gas more quickly.
= Nasty+1. Cost 60.

QUOTE
Na rcoject
Vector: Injection
Speed: Immediate
Penetration: 0
Power: 10
Effect: Stun Damage
A common knockout drug, narcoject is often used with dart guns.
It has no side effects.
add some DMSO and voila. Cost 50
NiL_FisK_Urd
Yeah, the gas is color- and odorless, but i think you dont miss it when it flys to you and emits its content. Oh, and then you sit there and silently wait what the gas will do with you - or would you rather sound an alarm and get the hell out of the way/put your gas mask on?

CS /Tear Gas
works 4 IPs later
Nausea Gas
works 12 IPs later
Neuro-Stun
works 4 IPs later
Narcoject
works 4 IPs later
3278
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 04:03 PM) *
Legally, the mage needs a license to practise magic - but most just ignore that. I think it's in the core book, in the chapter about licenses and IDs.

Still not seeing it. Anyone know where it is and have a book with them?

QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 04:03 PM) *
By RAW, items at chargen are only limited by the aviability rating of 12, not by the legality code (-/R/F).

Ah, that would be a real delight. smile.gif We're allowed 12R, but not 12F. So a starting character can have a Rating 4 Fake License for sort of whatever they'd like, correct?

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 04:27 PM) *
1) THIS definitely makes it better....NOT!!!

Could you perhaps clarify? With Invisibility, I can conceal myself for -2, or myself and a teammate with a penalty of -4. With Invisibility and a Sustaining Focus [which is, it should be said, mad expensive!], I can conceal myself for -0, or myself and a teammate for -2. With a chameleon suit, I can conceal myself [with a variety of pros and cons in comparison to Invisibility] for -0, and cannot conceal a teammate at all. On balance, weighing the pros and cons of each choice [and pretending I can't just do both], Invisibility looks to be more flexible overall, and more flexible in this individual circumstance [concealing a teammate], than a chameleon suit.

Of course, it seems like a reasonable option to do both, depending on how you'd rule your Invisibility would effect the suit's sensors [because it would be correcting for the non-Invisibilitied image, which one presumes might differ in more than just opacity], which would then also avoid some of the Object Resistance issues, below. And there's another flexibility: the magician can wear the suit and cast the spell; no one else can.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 04:27 PM) *
2) If i would be a criminal in reality, i would do the job i am capable of. But i am a criminal in SR, and therefore i do the job the GM gives me.

That's cool. My GM doesn't give us jobs that in reality we wouldn't accept, because the Johnson would have no interest in giving us a job we couldn't do. [Which doesn't mean sometimes you don't get on-site and find out everyone was wrong. biggrin.gif ] If your GM is giving you jobs you're not qualified for, then that's a different situation altogether, and you're quite correct that my experiences wouldn't apply.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 04:27 PM) *
3) nitpicking

No, sir, I genuinely didn't understand you, and requested a clarification. I was not criticising your usage, or splitting hairs, I didn't know what you meant, so I asked.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 04:27 PM) *
4) my dice donīt care if their result is irregular. ^^

Right. Well, all joking aside, obviously the actual results are going to be typically between 3 and 5 hits [on Invisibility, in this case], off 12 dice. Against peoples and such, that Threshold of 3-5 to see you, plus the Infiltration test with vision modifiers, makes Invisibility quite a useful spell.

Against "electronic equipment" you need 4, which is fine, but against "drones, vehicles," you need 6, which is really too bad. If you rule sensors are OR6 - and I think that's not unreasonable, although I wouldn't, for exactly this reason - then you need to throw 18 dice on the table to stand an even chance at using Improved Invisibility to remain undetected. That basically makes the spell not at all useful against sensors, and that's definitely a little messed-up. smile.gif

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 04:27 PM) *
5)
CODE
To detect auras concealed with Extended Masking, a character need only make the usual Assensing + Intuition Opposed Test against the masking initiate’s Intuition + Magic + initiate grade.

Thanks, but I actually have all the books with me, everywhere I am, so if someone points a rule out to me, I'll already have a copy of it: you won't need to post it. smile.gif But I appreciate the help.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 04:27 PM) *
6) correct, but the mage also leaves these traces and ADDITIONALLY the traces from his signature. The sam can change the weapon after the run, put in another barrel or use caseless ammo. The mage doesnīt have this option. He can only take an advanced metamagic and ever these one can be looked through. And most of the time, you donīt have the time to stand around for several rounds to cancel your signatur, nor are you stupid enough to switch on astral sight (that is needed for that) while somebody might be waiting in astral space to give you a present in form of a manabolt.

Yep! Those are definitely all considerations of being a magician. Put them in the "con" column. But I'm still looking at the pro column, and overall [depending on all those factors we've talked about] it seems to be way longer. smile.gif But hey, yeah, absolutely there are some balances in place for magicians, from drain, to background count, to signatures. [Although Astral Signatures only last Force in hours, and take only Force in Complex Actions to erase, hardly a back-breaking restriction I'm sure you'll agree.]

Skillful use of these, and other, balances can prevent magicians from utterly dominating games; a good GM, working with good players, won't have any trouble smoothing out these issues, if indeed they're issues at all. [At our table, it's not really considered significant if your character is more "powerful" than other characters. I used to play the Street Kid contact, you know?] Like I've said previously, I don't think these imbalances have to be problems at the table, but I also don't see the point in denying the imbalances. You see no imbalance: you "donīt see a difference" between the two: clearly, at your table, these imbalances are being corrected for, and that's great.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 02:39 AM) *
AND donīt forget that you have to cancel your signature after you used the spell. THIS is some serious thing and WHO really has the time to stay around for several rounds to erase them? Do sams have equal problems, leaving a fingerprint everywhere they go and use their skills?


That is one of the things that Flexible Signature is excellent for... As long as you cast spells equal to your initiate grade or lower, you leave no signature from spellcasting. smile.gif
Machiavelli
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 05:14 PM) *
Still not seeing it. Anyone know where it is and have a book with them?

Thanks, but I actually have all the books with me, everywhere I am, so if someone points a rule out to me, I'll already have a copy of it: you won't need to post it. smile.gif But I appreciate the help.
Because you donīt want to have it posted, i simply say "check out for street magic, page 13.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 5 2012, 05:17 PM) *
That is one of the things that Flexible Signature is excellent for... As long as you cast spells equal to your initiate grade or lower, you leave no signature from spellcasting. smile.gif

Which rulewise happens not very often. ^^
3278
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 04:59 PM) *
Also, one thing with AOE Attacks: Mundane AOE attacks seem to attract SWAT/HTR/Military Responses because of the use of military hardware (grenades, rocket launchers, etc.) which is normally not subtly, whereas a stunball does not make any sound except of falling people.

On of the things I've always loved most about magic in Shadowrun has been its subtlety, though the rules for perceiving magic have fluctuated over the years. But the idea that anything I can see can be affected by me, and that it's not really likely they'll know where it came from, have so many ramifications. Did you know that a falcon can see, from the maximum range of an unmodified sniper rifle, an object as small as 4 inches across? Buzzards fly sometimes at 15,000 feet, spotting prey much smaller than a metahuman. You can just be miles away, gliding on thermals, when your mark steps outside his house and then just falls asleep, or gives up all his secrets, or decides that tonight he's going to bring some work home with him. And you're just a bird a couple miles away. I really love playing a magician in Shadowrun, although it's come to mean that no one important ever goes outside. biggrin.gif
Machiavelli
That is the point. MUAHAHAHAHAHA....but i LOVE the theory.^^
Lansdren
This does seem to be again going back to the point that to be a kick ass I can do everything mage you need.

1) karma for about three initiations - Masking Extended Masking maybe Flexible signature or Quickening (so around 48 karma because you wouldnt want to buy metamagics when you need the initiation ranks to make them work)
2) stat increases for three to four stats (two drain one magic and possibly edge) which could be anything really but i wouldnt be suprised if some of these so called overpowered mages are the ones with strength and body of 1
3) Karma for all those spells (again could be anything but it gets costly quickly) Plus of course the out of run time to learn them (you are enforcing the time constraints for learning new spells right?)
4) Karma plus money for all the focuses you need to use those extra spells all the time


I'm still not seeing this being a problem from game start till about 250 karma unless your letting obviously unblanced mages into the group if it walks like a one trick pony it will roll dice like a one trick pony.




Machiavelli
Sorry, i donīt understand. Häh?

QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 05:12 PM) *
Yeah, the gas is color- and odorless, but i think you dont miss it when it flys to you and emits its content. Oh, and then you sit there and silently wait what the gas will do with you - or would you rather sound an alarm and get the hell out of the way/put your gas mask on?

CS /Tear Gas
works 4 IPs later
Nausea Gas
works 12 IPs later
Neuro-Stun
works 4 IPs later
Narcoject
works 4 IPs later

Wrong. At least the last one works immediately. And besides: not everybody has 4IPīs. Drop the grenade at the right time and pop goes the weasel. And was making the attack not obvious to the targets the question? If you start waving your hands, glowing like a christmas tree, you are also obvious.
3278
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 05:22 PM) *
Because you donīt want to have it posted, i simply say "check out for street magic, page 13.

Man, I am really sorry, but I'm still just not seeing it. Maybe you're right, and it's best that you just quote it, because there's nothing I can see in Street Magic, p13, that suggests "Mages need licenses to practice." Obviously foci are Restricted, but I'm just not seeing anything about mages needing licenses, at least in the UCAS; in fact, it explicitly says that in the UCAS they don't require magicians to register, when they contrast it with Great Britain. I've got to be missing something. frown.gif Sorry!
Yerameyahu
No, to be *godly*, Lansdren.
3278
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 5 2012, 05:33 PM) *
This does seem to be again going back to the point that to be a kick ass I can do everything mage you need...

The initiations definitely seem to be a tipping point, and Attribute bonuses are obviously always highly significant. I'm not sure that you need a particularly broad palette of spells to be highly effective, though, if you're choosing carefully and don't mind trading in a little of that famous flexibility; I think you can hit a pretty effective load-out with just 10 or 12 spells...hell, I think you can be pretty impressive - superpowered, you could say - with just a few!

Foci are a real money- and karma-sink. It's good, because you can use some of that cash - whatever you haven't traded for Karma, if you're allowed to do so - but the Karma costs are steep. That said, the monetary and karma costs for Sustaining Foci are tolerable, although the Availability could be a tough nut to crack.

But yeah, it seems like once you've done some of these things, that's when mages start to reach that tip-over point, where they're "more powerful" - whatever that means - than mundanes. Until then, they're just super-awesome. wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 09:23 AM) *
Which rulewise happens not very often. ^^


What do you mean? Not sure what you are saying here...

The mage I play casts spells at Force 3 almost exclusively. He has Magic 3 (So no Phjysical Drain unless he absolutely must), and Initiation Grade 3, so Signatures last no time. Thus, no need to Clean Signatures. It is really, really handy when you do not have the time to stop and clean the signatures manually, as is often the case when you are trying to escape a location on the run. Stopping tends to get you dead or captured. smile.gif
Machiavelli
I wanted to point out, that you usually donīt use spells below your (usually much lower) initiate grade. In your specific case it might work out, but i hardly use spells below my magic attribute, especially not combat spells or spells that need a high threshold (like invisibility if you need to beat OR, etc.)
Irion
@NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE
Hits the adept harder than the mage.

Nope. It is often said, but is so untrue. The mage is hit three times:
First his magic, second his powerfoci and thired his sustained spell. An adept has to choose one point of powers he will loose. They are probably not even helpfull in this special occasion.

QUOTE
Yeah, but if you cast through a window ultrasound is useless - and normal corp guards, LS beat cops and gangers usally don't run around with ultrasound and radar sensor. Also, ultrasound is affected by concealment.

Well, that might be true. So yes, with this kind of eyes, this won't work very well, I agree. (Unless you use thermal smoke, but thats really GM-Fiat now...)

@3278
QUOTE
On of the things I've always loved most about magic in Shadowrun has been its subtlety, though the rules for perceiving magic have fluctuated over the years. But the idea that anything I can see can be affected by me, and that it's not really likely they'll know where it came from, have so many ramifications.

Those are the points, which bring me to believe that magic is too good.
It is not "I solve problems like the sam does" it is "I seek different ways".
And because we all know the "real" world better, mostly we are not prepared for "magic". (Its spells like detect life, which just make mages so freaking strong)
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 5 2012, 06:03 PM) *
(Its spells like detect life, which just make mages so freaking strong)
This spell is good, but you know about radar-sensors as headware? Seeing AND targeting through walls for the sam?
Irion
@Machiavelli
Detect live is not that great if you look at just the text. It gets great if you look at the detection spell results.
With 3 hits, this spell already gives you EVERY PERSON CARRYING A GUN.
4 hits identifie the targets!
5 hits and you probably get their emotional state, too...

This radar does not do for you...
Not to mention the differance in range...(100m, compared to easy 150-250m)
Now walls are also a problem. The radar has even a problem to see through a TREE, by RAW.
Those are at least half a meter thick (or you can't hide behind it) and for every 10 cm you have a structure raiting of 5. (This would require a raiting 5 radar sensor. Unfortunatly it is capped by 4)

Radar is very great for a lot of things. But for finding livings subjects, I do not think it is the first choice.
(And I won't even go into jamming this stuff...
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 03:29 PM) *
We now use a gentlemans agreement that we dont use overcasting as SOP, only when the shit really hits the fan. Also, every point of overcasting gives a temporary point of the "cursed" quality.


I like the idea that Overcasting leaves some sort of mark or vibe on you for a while, hindering stealth, perhaps leaving an Astral Signature trail...



QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 03:46 PM) *
Without overcasting as SOP and the strange direct combat spell mechanics i don't see a problem with mages in tactical combat (except for maybe possession mages). Indirect spells just work fine, but they are vastly inferior to direct spells (more drain, reaction AND body test to reduce damage, leave physical traces). I think the drain codes of direct and indirect spells should be switched ...


That might be a good idea.

QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 03:49 PM) *
A chameleon suit? I thought they were, like, 8 grand or something, and then another couple for Thermal Damping.


My bad. Even so, 8K isn't much on a Sam's 250K budget.


QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 03:49 PM) *
Of course you do! But 8-14 spells is - let me see here, carry the one - about 8 to 14 more than the "sam" gets. smile.gif Would I take Calm Animal at chargen? No, particularly not with Control Animal. [In my example, I used both, but only for fun: one or the other would have worked just fine.] I'm not even sure I'd take that: more likely, I'd just take Stunball and be done with it. wink.gif But these spells exist, and magicians can learn them, and no one else can. It produces a type of character with inherently more flexibility than others. I don't think it's a big deal, but I don't see how it's not true.


Yes, but it's a limited kind of flexibility; say the Sam can buy 3 abilities out of 10, and the Mage can buy 3 out of 20, that's more flexibility, but they both have the same spending power.

I don't think people get upset if the mage spends his (karma, money) on things that other characters aren't doing, or not very invested in doing. They get upset if he takes their job. But taking other people's niche isn't really the truly optimal way to spend your karma, because someone in the team is already doing that, so you can afford to spend it on someone else.

QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 03:49 PM) *
The other thing about magicians is that they do have some abilities that no one else can replicate, like the ability to quickly heal wounds and the ability to fly. [And be a dog, but we've been over that.] Again, you have a limited number of these abilities, but just 8 to 14 of them is really, really astonishing, and can produce capabilities no one else can replicate even in part.


The Heal spell still takes a number of rounds to become permanent. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's all that different from First Aid; it takes more than a few IPs to heal a serious injury both ways, but also less than a minute both ways. Actually the speed of First Aid is more amazing...

QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 03:49 PM) *
Could you point me at the reference for magicians needing licenses to practice? We are talking [mostly] about SR4, right?


It's not entirely easy to find, but Ctrl-F is my friend:
SR4A, p. 19
QUOTE
In fact, some runners break the law simply by existing, because they possess illegal cyberware, practice magic without a license, or are not allowed within certain countries.


SR4A, p. 332
QUOTE
Fake License: For those who don’t want to go through the
standard legal channels, a fake license for all kinds of restricted items
(Legality, p. 313) or activities (hunting, concealed carry, spellcasting,
etc.)—as appropriate to the jurisdiction—can be obtained through
the black market. Each type of item/activity requires a separate li-
cense. Though a digitally-signed electronic license can be carried on
a commlink, licenses are also stored in (and verified through) various
databases online. Each license is assigned to a particular ID/SIN (char-
acter’s choice). Use the fake license’s rating in an Opposed Test against
the verification system’s rating.


Also, note that all spell formulae are R- or F-rated, and all foci are R-rated.


QUOTE
Or 15 Karma if you use the optional rule of buying a metamagic.

Also, one thing with AOE Attacks: Mundane AOE attacks seem to attract SWAT/HTR/Military Responses because of the use of military hardware (grenades, rocket launchers, etc.) which is normally not subtly, whereas a stunball does not make any sound except of falling people. Gas attacks are also tricky, because most combat gases are either very expensive, have a long duration until they work, or leave visible traces like clouds etc.


Well, and the low-Threshold Perception test to spot the spellcasting. And then IF rogue magic attacks are reported, authorities will respond heavily. It's easier than you might think: one lucky enemy who isn't dropped by the first stunball because he was still around the corner, who spends his next action to send an alarm to whoever that he's under magical assault. IIRC, sending a message is a Free Action.


QUOTE ( @ Jan 5 2012, 06:03 PM)
Those are the points, which bring me to believe that magic is too good.
It is not "I solve problems like the sam does" it is "I seek different ways".
And because we all know the "real" world better, mostly we are not prepared for "magic". (Its spells like detect life, which just make mages so freaking strong)


I don't begrudge mages their ability to do things differently. Thinking outside the box is for everyone, but hackers and mages are supposed to turn it into a fulltime job.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 09:36 AM) *
Man, I am really sorry, but I'm still just not seeing it. Maybe you're right, and it's best that you just quote it, because there's nothing I can see in Street Magic, p13, that suggests "Mages need licenses to practice." Obviously foci are Restricted, but I'm just not seeing anything about mages needing licenses, at least in the UCAS; in fact, it explicitly says that in the UCAS they don't require magicians to register, when they contrast it with Great Britain. I've got to be missing something. frown.gif Sorry!



Well, 3278, any Spell that you cast is at least Restricted (And Require Licenses to cast legally), and Combat Spells are Forbidden and you cannot License those (nor legally cast them) at all. So, If you expect to cast spells and get away with it legally, you better have a license for everything but Combat Spells. Since you cannot legally cast a Combat Spell, well, don't get caught. The FIRST thing that is going to get checked when it is discovered you are a Mage is your Licenses. Better not leave any Signatures behind, ever.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 09:58 AM) *
I wanted to point out, that you usually donīt use spells below your (usually much lower) initiate grade. In your specific case it might work out, but i hardly use spells below my magic attribute, especially not combat spells or spells that need a high threshold (like invisibility if you need to beat OR, etc.)


Ahhh... I got you now... Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif
Machiavelli
This is what i am here for.^^
Irion
@Ascalaphus
I do not know who wrote it. But I like the idea of Overcasting to be used like threading. Making an acrcane+Magic test (one free action) and increase the spellpower for the next spell by hits. (and you need to resist hits-drain immediately)
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 5 2012, 05:35 PM) *
Sorry, i donīt understand. Häh?


Wrong. At least the last one works immediately. And besides: not everybody has 4IPīs. Drop the grenade at the right time and pop goes the weasel. And was making the attack not obvious to the targets the question? If you start waving your hands, glowing like a christmas tree, you are also obvious.

oh, sorry - narcoject just works "at the end of the combat turn" - that means the mook gets 1 action.
(if he does nothing, he just delays his action - you hit with the narcoject, he sounds the alarm)
3278
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 5 2012, 06:31 PM) *
Yes, but it's a limited kind of flexibility; say the Sam can buy 3 abilities out of 10, and the Mage can buy 3 out of 20, that's more flexibility, but they both have the same spending power.

That's a really interesting point, and I agree with the premise that the magician gets more options to choose from, but roughly the same number of choices. That said, the type of choices is very different, too: the "sam" can choose to run fast, or jump well, or hide better, but the magician gets to turn into a cheetah, or levitate, or wink out of sight. Don't get me wrong, hydraulic rams in cyberlegs is helpful, but... smile.gif

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 5 2012, 06:31 PM) *
The Heal spell still takes a number of rounds to become permanent. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's all that different from First Aid; it takes more than a few IPs to heal a serious injury both ways, but also less than a minute both ways. Actually the speed of First Aid is more amazing...

I'm not sure I've ever used First Aid in SR4. Let's take a look. First Aid + Logic (2), and every hit past the Threshold heals a box of damage. Let's say the person using it is a Veteran [4] at First Aid, and he's an Improved [4] member of the species as far as Logic is concerned. He rolls 8 dice and gets two hits, and...well, nothing, I guess. If he gets three hits, he can heal one box of damage, and it'll only take as many combat turns as the amount of damage he's trying to heal, which is really really fast. With SR's advanced medical technology, sure, but these rules also apply for just, you know, patching dude up with gauze.

Heal, on the other hand, doesn't have a Threshold to beat, so it's a straight up test: you get 2 hits on your spellcasting test, and you can remove two points of damage. The duration isn't awful: again, the number of boxes you're trying to heal, and you can reduce that with the hits from Spellcasting. So a little more effective that the equivalent First Aid, but also requires a little more investment [say, being a magician in the first place!].

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 5 2012, 06:31 PM) *
It's not entirely easy to find, but Ctrl-F is my friend:
SR4A, p. 19

And I even searched for "license!" It's possible I'm very dumb. wink.gif

I don't think, given this rule's isolation, uniqueness, vagueness [in which nations are they speaking?] and offhandedness, that I'll be requiring my players to all have Magician Licenses, although I agree it's definitely there in the book. Do you require all your players to have fake Magician Licenses? What's the cost and availability on those?

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 5 2012, 06:31 PM) *
Also, note that all spell formulae are R- or F-rated...

Here's an interesting question: I wonder what the legality would be, between using the spell and buying the formula. Do you know what I mean? Like, are Use and Possession the same in this case. If a cop sees me levitating, is he going to arrest me for possessing a restricted spell formula? Where's the license for having these spells, in Gear? It seems like maybe there are some holes in the legality-and-magic area.

[quote name='Tymeaus Jalynsfein' date='Jan 5 2012, 06:37 PM' post='1131592']
Well, 3278, any Spell that you cast is at least Restricted (And Require Licenses to cast legally), and Combat Spells are Forbidden and you cannot License those (nor legally cast them) at all.[/quote[
Okay, then maybe you know: where's the rule that says you can't cast a spell legally? Or is the point that you'd buy a Fake License to purchase the Restricted spell formula, and then have that on your Fake ID?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 11:23 AM) *
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 5 2012, 06:37 PM) *

Well, 3278, any Spell that you cast is at least Restricted (And Require Licenses to cast legally), and Combat Spells are Forbidden and you cannot License those (nor legally cast them) at all.


Okay, then maybe you know: where's the rule that says you can't cast a spell legally? Or is the point that you'd buy a Fake License to purchase the Restricted spell formula, and then have that on your Fake ID?


Use and Possession are the same in SR4. If it is illegal to use, it is also illegal to possess. So yes, you need a License in SR4 to just POSSESS/PURCHASE a Spell formula that is not a Combat Spell (Which cannot be purchased Legally by PC's, Normally). Use is its own issue. If you commit a Crime, and are using Magic at the time, you have just elevated your crime to a Pre-Meditated Crime (Sucks to be you). If you are not committing a crime, and LS/KE sees you performing Magic, you better have a License, or you are breaking the Law.

Licenses are fairly generic. Each License costs 100 Nuyen per Rating point, up to Rating 6. Just like a Fake SIN. For a Magician, I would require a License for Each Category of Spell (Detection, Health, Illusion, Manipulation) he is capable of casting in, with an Addendum for each Spell Known in the Category. The addendum would cost nothing, it would just be an update. You could, of course, ignore the addendum requirement, but if caught uising a Spell you were not licensed for, you would likely suffer the consequences of your choice. AS Most Shadowrun magicians are criminals anyways, many are likely to ignore these requirements.

Some Nations/Corps also require a Registration of your Magical Abilities. I would cost this at 5,000 Nuyen, required Annually. Not sure if there are real costs listed in any of the sourcebooks, as I have never seen any for this.
3278
Can you point me to references for any of this? There's a lot of information in there, and it would be helpful if I had a better idea of what you're basing some of these statements on, because a lot of it's not familiar to me at all.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 11:59 AM) *
Can you point me to references for any of this? There's a lot of information in there, and it would be helpful if I had a better idea of what you're basing some of these statements on, because a lot of it's not familiar to me at all.


Most of it is based upon the Entry for Fake Licenses (p. 332) and Legality (p 313) in SR4A...

QUOTE
Fake Licenses, SR4A, p. 332.
Fake License: For those who don't want to go through the standard legal channels, a fake license for all kinds of restricted items (Legality, p. 313) or activities (hunting, concealed carry, spellcasting, etc.), as appropriate to the jurisdiction, can be obtained through the black market. Each type of item/activity requires a separate license. Though a digitally-signed electronic license can be carried on a commlink, licenses are also stored in (and verified through) various databases online. Each license is assigned to a particular ID/SIN (character's choice). Use the fake license's rating in an Opposed Test against the verification system's rating.


QUOTE
Legality, SR4A, p 313.
Operating outside the law is part of a shadowrunner's job description. This not only includes criminal activity, but also the possession of a large array of prohibited items. This chapter features a wide range of gear, ownership of which is often considered illegal. To reflect this, items are classified as legal, restricted ( R) and forbidden (F). A legal item may be purchased freely and can be owned, transported, and used without restriction. Of course, if you commit a crime with it (for example, smashing someone's skull with a toolbox or threatening someone with a baseball bat), you are subject to punishment, but this is due to the crime itself, not the item you used to commit it.

A restricted item may be purchased, owned, and transported under special circumstances. For example, you are allowed to purchase and own a gun when you have a firearms license for it. To carry a gun with you, you may need a more specific concealed carry permit. If you threaten someone with it or use it to shoot at someone, all the force of the law comes crashing down on you. Licenses can be obtained through legal channels, as long as you are an upright citizen in possession of a legal SIN. Shadowrunners with fake SINs can of course obtain similar fake licenses (p. 332). A fake license is always connected to a fake SIN, and if one of them is exposed, the other will also become worthless.

A forbidden item may never be legally purchased or owned, let alone transported or used, by a private person. Don't get caught.


Does this help?

Oh, and as for Jurisdiction, the SR4A book assumes Seattle, UCAS. smile.gif
3278
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 5 2012, 08:14 PM) *
Most of it is based upon the Entry for Fake Licenses (p. 332) and Legality (p 313) in SR4A...

Well, I'm not sure I see all the things you said in there, but I don't find your inferences unreasonable. smile.gif

Does anyone else actually do this? Purchase Fake Licenses for spell formulae and Fake Magician Licenses?
NiL_FisK_Urd
My MysAd has a License for Manipulation Spells and for her Power Focus
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 07:23 PM) *
That's a really interesting point, and I agree with the premise that the magician gets more options to choose from, but roughly the same number of choices. That said, the type of choices is very different, too: the "sam" can choose to run fast, or jump well, or hide better, but the magician gets to turn into a cheetah, or levitate, or wink out of sight. Don't get me wrong, hydraulic rams in cyberlegs is helpful, but... smile.gif


A mage is going to get some choices that are downright unnatural, but that's sort of the point of magic, if it could only duplicate/simulate mundane things it'd be rather disappointing.

That said, I'm open to the idea that there should be mundane things that magic can't do. For example, I think that it's a design mistake that you can apply the adept power of Improved Skill to hacking skills, and likewise the way Analyze Device spell is tortured to make magic hacker/riggers. I don't begrudge a Hermetic the ability to be good at hacking (assuming you use Attribute+Skill hacking rolls, he'd have the aptitude), but I don't think magic should be good for assisting it.

Apart from high-tech though, I'm having difficulty thinking of things magic should be unable to do. But with clever costing of abilities, implants, mundane skill use and hiring NPCs, you can make sure that magic isn't always the best way to do things.

QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 07:23 PM) *
I'm not sure I've ever used First Aid in SR4. Let's take a look. First Aid + Logic (2), and every hit past the Threshold heals a box of damage. Let's say the person using it is a Veteran [4] at First Aid, and he's an Improved [4] member of the species as far as Logic is concerned. He rolls 8 dice and gets two hits, and...well, nothing, I guess. If he gets three hits, he can heal one box of damage, and it'll only take as many combat turns as the amount of damage he's trying to heal, which is really really fast. With SR's advanced medical technology, sure, but these rules also apply for just, you know, patching dude up with gauze.

Heal, on the other hand, doesn't have a Threshold to beat, so it's a straight up test: you get 2 hits on your spellcasting test, and you can remove two points of damage. The duration isn't awful: again, the number of boxes you're trying to heal, and you can reduce that with the hits from Spellcasting. So a little more effective that the equivalent First Aid, but also requires a little more investment [say, being a magician in the first place!].


What you forgot is the Rating 6 medkit and the Specialization in Combat Wounds, for an additional +8 dice. If you care enough about First Aid to get a Veteran skill rating in it, you might have invested in Cerebral Boosters as well (let's say Rating 2), which cost 4BP total and 0.4 Essence, the same as 1 rank in First Aid, but which also provide a few bonuses to random other things.


QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 5 2012, 07:23 PM) *
And I even searched for "license!" It's possible I'm very dumb. wink.gif

I don't think, given this rule's isolation, uniqueness, vagueness [in which nations are they speaking?] and offhandedness, that I'll be requiring my players to all have Magician Licenses, although I agree it's definitely there in the book. Do you require all your players to have fake Magician Licenses? What's the cost and availability on those?


Here's an interesting question: I wonder what the legality would be, between using the spell and buying the formula. Do you know what I mean? Like, are Use and Possession the same in this case. If a cop sees me levitating, is he going to arrest me for possessing a restricted spell formula? Where's the license for having these spells, in Gear? It seems like maybe there are some holes in the legality-and-magic area.


I could swear I've seen more decisive statements about it somewhere, but that might've been SR3. At any rate, the entire license system in SR4* is pretty vague. But if learning spells is restricted/forbidden and foci to assist them are restricted/forbidden, I think it's a safe assumption that actually casting spells is also at least restricted. Kind of like how using a gun that requires a permit is also an activity you shouldn't be doing without some sort of permit or other very good reason.

To me, it makes sense that states will think of the ability to cast combat spells as a sort of concealed-carry combined with assault weapons/heavy explosives. Something they'd definitely want to control. They will want to know about anyone capable of doing it, and if you demonstrate the ability, they'll be checking you against their databases. They might insist on having your astral signature on file, and they'll be asking you about your whereabouts anytime something weird goes down. In fact, if you're powerful, they might pressure to work form the government, because governments get itchy about independent heavily armed people.

Now, for example mages with Mentors who don't buy into materialism, or the ideology of the state on whose territory you happen to live, wouldn't want to work for the government. Nor does being under constant surveillance, or being questioned about every weird incident, really mesh with their quest for mystical enlightenment.

And besides the official side, plenty of underworld factors also take notice of powerful mages, and may try to recruit them, or scare them off. Likewise, people victimized by crime may seek the assistance of the local archmage. This gets you into trouble.

So a powerful mage has good reasons not to let people know that you're a powerful mage. However, that contradicts using a lot of high-powered AoE spells, because people are going to start wondering just who did that. This, again, can be a lot of bother. Because in the long term it might be really hard to hide that you're the powerful wizard everyone's looking for.
Stahlseele
So . . how do people find out wether or not you just cast a spell you are not licensed to have?
spells look and smell and feel how ever the caster wants them to be perceived right? O.o
you could make your stun ball smell like yellow and sound like cold while looking loud.
Irion
@Ascalaphus
QUOTE
Apart from high-tech though, I'm having difficulty thinking of things magic should be unable to do. But with clever costing of abilities, implants, mundane skill use and hiring NPCs, you can make sure that magic isn't always the best way to do things.

Energy creation, for example. Sustain one firewall spell and you have a really clean, renewable energy source. (Quicken the spell and...)

I think magic should not have to "open" effects. Elemental summonings should be only duable with a permanent (ignite) or instant duration(Fireball) or linked to a living subject(energy aura). But even here I am not sure about it...

@Stahlseele
They do not. The point is, if you are a mage you should have some licensed spells or nobody will be believing you. Probably most mages have a punch of curative spells and some manipulation spells. (For example for building a reactor...)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 5 2012, 03:19 PM) *
So . . how do people find out wether or not you just cast a spell you are not licensed to have?
spells look and smell and feel how ever the caster wants them to be perceived right? O.o
you could make your stun ball smell like yellow and sound like cold while looking loud.


It is that thing called a Perception Roll... With a Threshold of 6-Force. Not to hard to notice if casting at levels Dumpshockers claim is the minimum Force required to be functional in the world.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 5 2012, 11:19 PM) *
So . . how do people find out wether or not you just cast a spell you are not licensed to have?
spells look and smell and feel how ever the caster wants them to be perceived right? O.o
you could make your stun ball smell like yellow and sound like cold while looking loud.

If it matches your astral signature ^^
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 03:25 PM) *
If it matches your astral signature ^^


That too... smile.gif
Stahlseele
My question was how to find out if the spell you just cast is one of the licensed in your SIM or something else entirely . .
NiL_FisK_Urd
Just get enough hits on an assensing test. At least in the "99 Bottles" mission there are ways to identify spells with a combination of assensing and arcana.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 5 2012, 03:34 PM) *
My question was how to find out if the spell you just cast is one of the licensed in your SIM or something else entirely . .


You can identify a Spell with Assensing... smile.gif
Stahlseele
Ah, okay.
And how does that work?
Isn't technically, every spell a unique spell due to the casters mind working different from anybody elses?
Yerameyahu
Don't they all use the same formulae, more or less? Even the Awakened aren't special and unique. smile.gif
Ascalaphus
Well... mages from the same tradition can use the same formula, but it needs to be translated for a mage of another tradition to use it. So maybe when you Assense a spell to identify it you can determine something about its tradition, too.

So perhaps licensing for obscure or made-up traditions is especially hard. I mean, not all traditions would call a spell the same thing, so a license for a hermetic formula for stunball might not match the execution of a shamanic stunball, which may mean you're committing a crime...

Since there's some comments about "firearms licenses" in the books, maybe you don't need licenses for specific spells, but for general categories, like combat or healing spells.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 5 2012, 05:22 PM) *
@Ascalaphus

Energy creation, for example. Sustain one firewall spell and you have a really clean, renewable energy source. (Quicken the spell and...)

I think magic should not have to "open" effects. Elemental summonings should be only duable with a permanent (ignite) or instant duration(Fireball) or linked to a living subject(energy aura). But even here I am not sure about it...

@Stahlseele
They do not. The point is, if you are a mage you should have some licensed spells or nobody will be believing you. Probably most mages have a punch of curative spells and some manipulation spells. (For example for building a reactor...)



For me at least that is more a problem with quicken than energy creation. While the quickened stench spell has been around since 1e anytime you have semi-permanent effects as a possibility it can raise too many questions in how the world works so I would not be sad to see it go. Personally I'd have made quickened a 0 karma way for a mage to sustain without concentration some effects for a short period of time, kind of like a duration from most RPGs like 1 CT a hit on the quickening test long. Any permanent effects like the current quicken would be ridic expensive like only AAAs did it with any regularity expensive and it would be a year and a day not permanent because I actually like the earthdawn ties outside of IEs.

Relating to that earthdawnthing someone mentioned threading of overcast spells, that actually would kind of work as a earthdawn tie. Most of there complex spells required multiple threads to be tied to the main spell construct before it could be cast. and to me that is cool. Actually I might full earthdawn it if I were to make a SR 5e. You would need spell matrices to cast spells safely, you would preload the spells and changing the load takes time. Complex spells needed to tie a thread and each thread tie was usually an action, so bigger spells might take 3 rounds to cast. Summoning was a more difficult affair as a general rule due to the corrupted manasphere which also made astral projection a no no. Just assume the higher tier spells had still not been discovered so no game breaking spells.

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