This one doesn't fly in the BBB. Bone lacing is F so you cannot legally have it in any way shape or form. Maybe Augmentation came up with one that is R but not the basic book.

Although you still run into some problems with this. If you have Augmentation then the guards can easily ask why you didn't just have the part regrown? Cloning parts is as cheap or cheaper than some of the stuff you mentioned. The combat biker is a good excuse -- my group's never thought of that (we usually go bodyguard, PI, or Security Consultant) -- but like you said you have to be able to pull that off with some social skills (not necessarily professional but likely a point or two -- or hope for Edge).

Someone who's never played SR or who doesn't have a vision of his Sam as socially adept may not know how important Etiquette is.

You also run into the problem of lesser fail situations. You might be a fast talker but if your permit fails against the verification device then you are taken in for questioning and red flagged no matter what (assuming decently high security of the barghest situation above). This might not get you arrested and your ware removed but you have essentially been removed from the mission.

Now a barghest is pretty much an auto-flag situation for the mage as well without masking but that situation seems like a pretty tough assignment for ANY starting runner to deal with (Sam or Mage but probably not Face).

Ha! That's a pretty humorous read! I don't think people should be allowed to edit how you interpret their position. If they want, they can post their own version. (Hell you've done most of the work for them!)

I'd personally amend that to "Frustrating when a powergamer plays them and doesn't deign to share the spotlight." In the hands of a team player, they're much more fun (but, then again, what isn't? And that's sort of the point)

This is where balance is important for me. Magic is too generally useful. It can do everything. At higher ends of gameplay you start to wonder why some members of the group are even brought along.

It also breeds a problem where it is difficult for new players to get into SR. Just look at this thread and look at all the unwritten rules and things you "just have to know." How do new players get that? Dumpshock.com is not the answer because a lot of players will never visit here. Should a game you play for fun require homework and reading assignments? Especially when you paid real money for a game of make-believe. BGC isn't even in the main rulebook! So now you need to purchase 2 books and make sure you purchased the "correct" one (not say Unwired because you wanted to make heads or tails of the shitty hacking rules).

I'm not saying people can't have fun with Shadowrun when they first pick it up. But I do firmly believe that SR is one of those games where people have fun in spite of the rules -- they have fun because of their group of friends and zany hijinks.

Early on I tried to run a game of SR3 for a group of high-school buddies who hadn't played it before (I discovered SR through my college friends). We managed one session before they said they didn't like it and wanted to stop -- but went for the TPK to see how far they could get (cockpit of a plane and taxiing to the runway before LS finally took them down). We still talk about it to this day and everyone had fun but the ruleset just wasn't up to snuff for them. (and I still firmly believe that SR3 was a more consistent ruleset than SR4 but I've been asked to drop that cross)

Yes, I believe that Shadowrun is in the same "zany fun" category as Rifts.

I agree that for almost any task there's a way to do it with magic, but I'm not convinced that every mage has access to all those ways. Just because there's a spell to deal with problems 1-30 doesn't mean every mage knows those 30 spells. And while some spells are really versatile, some mundane abilities are also really versatile.




I agree that SR has a lot of rules, which work together in complex ways. Some things, including how to do things with magic, are more obvious than other ways to get stuff done, and that's annoying. I'm not sure the system is inherently hopeless, because you can do most things mundanely and there are a lot of checks and balances towards magic, but the game suffers from the difficulty of using them, the (GM) learning curve for handling mages is rather hefty.

It should work just as well as "No officer, I don't have the car's documents. It's my cousin's car." does nowadays.

Quite fitting.
Nothing has to be gamebreaking for a good GM. You can just outlaw it anyway.

Look at your Lists of pro/contra arguments. The pro-arguments (mages are too strong) are ALL strictly RAW. The contra-argumentation is between the GM beeing out espacially for the mage and houseruling. (Spirits using edge? Well, there is something in the book about it...)

This is actually what the hole discussion has to burn down to.

Lansdrens example made it pritty obvious, too. You had on the one side a dirt cheap scanner and on the other side a trained awakend critter which probably costs in a week what the scanner costs total.

You can't really break a game where one side(the GM) has all the cards.
But this is not really an argument for stuff beeing balanced.
The second the GM stops this kind of thinking and preparing, the mage will own.
Just don't give the gang magical support and look what the mage does.
At this point, yes the mage is running your game.

Which doesn't, BTW. My uncle found that out while driving my father's van one time...

I wish I could tell the story, but it's his and Dad's to tell, not mine.

@CanRay
I guess thats what he was trying to say....

I didn't mean any offense by that. I don't love all the rules either and agree that there are exploits that mages can use to break the game. I just meant that it was not clear to me whether you actually had problems with mages in your games or if you just really don't like RAW even if they're not how you play. I don't think most people actually play strictly RAW.

I would agree that the RAW can lead to broken mages, but I find it interesting that even with broken rules a lot of people don't actually have problems with mages at their tables. And I think that is what Paul was getting at, whether it's actually a problem in practice or mostly in theory.

I also don't think all of the counters for mages are houserules or GM's out for the mage. Some is just challenging a mage with the things in the system designed to challenge them. I don't think anyone would say you're "out for" the sam if the guards happened to be trolls with high body, cyberware, heavy weapons and heavy armor, if it makes sense for a company to hire them, so why do mages get upset and claim they are being picked on if a company sets up a background count, a spirit patrol, or a whole bunch of wards? I think too many players are use to playing mages where a GM doesn't challenge them on anything or doesn't actually understand the limits on their spells.

Recon. Infiltration. Why use Invisibility [which can be seen through] if you can just be a seagull? With sufficient Masking, you can go more-or-less wherever you find animals, which is more-or-less everywhere. If you allow it, there's no reason Shapechange can't be used to turn into the very small Body 1 critters, or even Body 0 critters, opening a whole world of simple physical access that wasn't possible before. And it doesn't turn you into one animal, it turns you into any animal [within your Body range, of course]. That flexibility, that freedom, is tremendous. In real terms, this power alone could be as useful to a professional criminal as all the cyberware in Chiba. Add to that the fact that you can still cast spells while Shapechanged - including favorites like Stunbolt, Magic Fingers, and Mind Probe - and it's a spell of remarkable utility, despite the fact that, yes, it leaves you in the shape of an unarmored critter.


Yes, but they have more limitations. They're not inexpensive, they can't be put on and taken off at will, and they can be damaged in ways a spell cannot. There are compensations, of course: active spells can't go some places, for one thing. But on balance, [depending on edition and circumstance, of course] it seems to me as if Invisibility is more flexible and as or more powerful, than the various chameleon options.

Oh: also, you can't put your chameleon suit on me, or on you and I both. Flexibility.


Yeah, but we talked a bunch about this before: it ain't everywhere, and the places where it's high enough to rob more than a couple dice are really rare, within the scope of the rules.


Would you agree that, even in this hand-picked scenario, the magician has more options than the "sam?" And that the options the magician has are as or more effective?


Barghests get a chance to pierce Masking? I did not know that. Or is this just internal paranoia on the part of the mage.


Not everyone has the connections to get such licenses. Not all equipment can be so licensed. Being licensed doesn't remove all security ramifications of having high-end military-grade combat augmentations.


Hide who he is a bit better, yes, and raise his Magic. That's pretty useful on its own, wouldn't you agree? And being able to hide your aura is more than just an afterthought: it makes possible types of infiltration and concealment [being a seagull in a way that doesn't arouse suspicion, for example] that no other class of character can match. Masking is a minor skill with huge ramifications.

Do you think magical groups are any more of a GM kindness than licenses? Seems to me like they're both expected parts of the setting that players should have access to as appropriate.

Ok, lets go:


Beeeecause IF he sees through, you are still armored, you are still armed, you still carry around your gizmos and so on....and on. And you are talking about "sufficient" masking. What is that? Initiate rating 4? is that common in your games? Even this one can bee seen through without a problem, because it is nothing more than a compared perception test and your initiate grade only adds dice. Dice fail....often. Perception pools are usually much higher than defense pools. So I will go for invisibility instead of body 0.^^





Because looking through imp. invis. is not really a problem. I play a quite good mage, i roll app. 12 dice for illusion spells and i usually get 2-3 successes if i cast this spell on the fly. We all know that if you try to sneak through several guys, the chance that somebody of them rolls good on the intuition test and sees through it is quite high (not to mention spirits on partol, guys with astral sight, astral barriers, ultrasound, radarsight etc. that AUTOMATICALLY see you). BESIDES you need 6 successes to hide from sensors, cameras etc. which is nigh impossibly without the use of edge. So where is the flexibility? How should a single mage manage to hide several people with imp. invis. if every sustained spell causes -2 on you dice pool? Are we playing the same game? More and more i am becoming sceptical about that. The time where imp. invis. was an "I WIN" button is long gone. Knowledge is power, so know your rules and all your problems are gone. Do i really have to send you our GM to show you how to use mages?

Just stunbolt it. And nothing prevents you from using both shapechange and invisibility.

Yeah, the new OR values just encourage powergaming. An illusion mage now needs magic 6, skill 6+spec, mentor spirit bonus and a power focus 2 to beat the threshhold on average ...

Aehmm....usually Drain and reduction of dicepool prevent the use of multiple spells.^^ Of course you can stunbolt it, but i thought you should win the initiative for this? ^^

As we started playing, we didn´t understand the initiative rules and the one that first said "i shoot", was allowed to act. Unfortunately these times are over too.

Well, a dog has INT 3 to resist the invisibility, and INI 6 - that should not be a problem. Casting two spells should not be a problem for a mage who has learned extended masking, and DV F/2+2 on F3 should also prove no problem.

@thorya
I just said your analysis was quite fitting.
I am in between.
Yes, if you know the rules as GM


Once I had a talk with a GM. (I do not go into detail for not derailing the discussion)
GM: Why is X like that?
Me: Because the rules say it is like that.
GM: So the rules are shit, make it like this.

As long as your GM has the backbone and the brains to make rulings like that you will never have problems with imbalanced stuff, because it does not exist (is fixed in a heartbeat).



Take out the team mage and leave the magical security in place. And now look how the team will be doing. Thats the reason why...
If the opposition can radio in ONE projecting mage it is GAME OVER for mundane runners. On the other hand, you will need something like that, so the mage can't do the job on his own...


In short:
Mages vS mundane have several issues:
First: Karma gain.
Sams and mages actually use different resources. The mage needs Karma the Sam needs money.
(Well, it is even worse with free spirits...)

There are several fixes for that: First off all increase the limit for attributes or skills. (If you are able to raise skills up to 10 the sam will have a lot more to put his points in, while the mage has to consider if he wants Counterspelling 9 or better one more initiation...)
If you put the "normal" attributes in a range from 1-8 the same thing is achieved. The sam is able to raise his willpower up to 10 if he wants to, giving him noticeable magic resistance
(Using BP the rules for paying another 15BP for every point after 5 should still stay in place)
(It might be worth to revisit the "races" and use the attribute "boni" from metatype as a flat bonus.

Magic is too much Jack of all trades
You have 4 Skills and 1 Attribute which very much covers everything.
Solution:
Split up Spellcasting(Heal, Combat..) and summoning(Fire, Water) in categories, but get rid of Ritualspellcasting and binding, which are now included in the single skills.

Those were the two most general... There are a lot other but those are mostly with specific rules...

Oh, come on. Can we please, let's not be like that?


Okay, but if I have to choose between "thing someone won't see through" and "thing that people will see through and shoot at me, but I don't necessarily die," I'm going to pick the former! But here's the thing, of course: you don't have to choose. You can use both spells, each when appropriate. Which is what I mean when I talk about increased flexibility over a non-magical character. [Not that Shapechange isn't more flexible than Invisibility, obviously: Shapechange can make you unseen or make you a mastiff; Invisibility can only do one of those things, and that uncertainly.]


What's "sufficient" for anything? That's like talking about "sufficient" armor: it's exactly dependent on the situation. The general idea is that you get [and take] jobs for which your abilities are sufficient.


I'm sorry, who can see through Masking without problem, using only a compared perception test in which you initiate grade only adds dice?


"I guess I'll cast Calm Animal on it. Excellent. Now I'll cast Control Animal, and this dog that belongs here is now my puppy puppet."


Sometimes I'm not as up on SR4a rules as I feel I should be, so help me out, if you would please: how are you getting "successes" at all? You make your spellcasting roll, count your hits, and that's the Threshold for someone to perceive you [plus Shadowing or Infiltration, obviously]. If that's the case, rolling 12 dice, you'd be seeing mostly 3-5 hits, which means the other guy has to get at least 3 hits on his Perception test just to beat the Invisibility, much less your Infiltration roll; add in the negatives one presumes he should be taking for perception - we're not doing this in broad daylight, right? - and it seems like Invisibility certainly can be useful in the right circumstances.

How did we get from, "I will go for invisibility instead of body 0," to, "looking through imp. invis. is not really a problem?" It seems strange to choose a spell with virtually certain failure, over one that's probably going to work but leaves you without physical armor - I hear there's a spell for that - if it doesn't. But again, it's a false dilemma: being a mage, you don't have to choose.


Well, I like to use a Sustaining Focus [or Spell Lock] for at least one of them, personally.


I think you'll find that, polite modesty aside, my grasp of the rules is pretty decent. Do me a favor and take a step back, and don't be a dick, and we can have a conversation. Beat your chest and act the prat, and you're welcome to talk with yourself. I've been doing this far too long to have any tolerance for it.

I must admit I'm curious to see some of these mage builds where they are seriously over powered, i'm betting they are missing out on alot of other skills and balance.

If your a one trick pony then your a one trick pony, granted with magic it does open that one trick up into a vegas show with dancing girls but still apart from in that one area you tend to be screwed.

Check my joining date here on the forums and you know that this counts for me too.

Of course we can, but this way it makes more fun. ^^ Seriously, nobody should be offended by my posts. If i say somthing that could have two meanings and one of them hurts you...i meant the other one.

Right, so it is only a -2 for yourself, another -2 for the hacker etc. No problem. ^^

What? We take the jobs we get, not the ones we are good in. Currently we are playing Ghost Cartels and i wonder if you have chars. that can handle fighting, infiltration and shadowing equally good. We don´t. We are specialits, no jack-of-all-trades.

Is there a big difference between hits and successes? Yeah, did i miss something?

To get back to the topic:

One thing i can agree with, is that mages have a lot of options. Because i like options, i play a mage. Where i strongly have to disagree, is that sams are (in comparison) underpowered. A mage needs karma, a sam needs karma and money. A mage needs the mentioned karma for everything, and because he needs it primarily for his magical abilities, he cannot spend it on physical-, weapons-, social- etc. skills. So while the mage is getting money he has not much use for, the sam can spend karma to raise attributes and skills, while he spends money to increase stats, gain extra dice etc. So he can basically advance from two different sources, while the mage can´t. We compare body 3-4 with body 5-9, armor 8-10 with armor 14-20, reaction 3 with reaction 5-9, dodge skills of 3-4 with 6+ and probably 6 active skills at decent ratings with 9+. So a little bit more versatility is not that bad IMO. If the sam things that the mage makes too much damage, he can buy better ammo and weapons, if he needs more armor, he buys or implants it. This is another kind of versatilitiy a mage has limited to no access to. I still don´t see a difference.

Regarding the use of thes options we discussed (sneaking in physically or changing form), you can argue. Theoretically it is a quite good thing to change into an unsuspicious, tiny animal, go into the area you have to, stunbolt everybody, calm animals while being invisible in addition and mask your aura so that nobody knows what is going on, but i differ between theory and practise. And in practise there ARE enemies that have a higher initiative, that can see through your masking, see through your spells, stomp on you etc. I think we both know the game good enough to see, that we have quite different views on this specific topic.

EDIT

Sorry, have forgotten to answer to this question. I don´t have the books on hand, but basically percieving a false aura is a simple astral-perception test. So his intuition (or magic??) + astral perception against your magic and (can´t remember) plus initiate grade. Basically the dice pools differ in the number of the initiate grade, so as long as you are not a high-class initiate, it is not really a problem to see through it.

The body limit is quite significant. You can't turn anyone into an animal more than 2 Body different from his own, so the ability to turn into small animals comes at the price of some armor when you're in metahuman shape.






They cost about 1-2K nuyen. Let's not exaggerate the expensiveness.




IF he takes the Invisibility spell. You get to take 8-14 spells at CharGen, depending on how you squeeze it. Probably no more than 10. So while you can pick from a lot of options, you still have to make choices. Meanwhile, chameleon suits are so BP-cheap that there's little reason not to get one.



Mages need licenses to practice too. And CharGen-wise, everyone's equally free to get licenses. Finally, if you have a good Face in the party, there's no Availability you can't reach.




Invisibility doesn't stop smell or sound.




On the one hand, Sams are basically forced to diversify because there's limits on how much Karma they can put into a single skill (which, at some point, should be uberspecialized good anyway), but on the other hand mages are too versatile?

Sams still get Karma you know. They still buy useful abilities with it. They can spend two types of resource, instead of only Karma.



Two more spells. Wow, mages are really efficient. </sarcasm>

---

People, just because there's a spell for anything, doesn't mean mages actually have all those spells. Especially because they're so starved for Karma, it'll be a long while before they can afford to buy spells to handle every single problem. And if they don't have to, because another party member can already handle a problem, then why spend your precious, precious Karma on it?

AND don´t forget that you have to cancel your signature after you used the spell. THIS is some serious thing and WHO really has the time to stay around for several rounds to erase them? Do sams have equal problems, leaving a fingerprint everywhere they go and use their skills?

Seriously can someone give me a realistic build that can do everything?

I'd love to have it as a back up incase my current infiltrator gets put on ice.


As far as I can see the major annoyance seems to stem from the fact that technically magic is able to improve forever when a mundane is limited to skill of six plus specilisation and stats plus augmentations. Ignoring the problem of growing cost against actual improvment.


Again there is alot to be said about a good mage build but I'm having trouble seeing them as a we can do everything kind of situation.

Maybe somepeople have been watching the trid abit to much and believe mages are all powerful

Playing a mage is definitely fun, because you are some kind of superman.....compared to some common citizens. But a sam also is some kind of superman....compared to common citizens. ^^ I only hear the peoply cry that mages are soooo powerful compared to sams. I have never head a hacker or rigger complain about this. Maybe the player of sams are a little bit thin-skinned? Why don´t we start a topic and argue about riggers being so much overpowered in comparison to mages? Lets discuss about object-resistances, gizmos that even increase it, heavy weapons without recoil that cut through steel (and mages) like a hot knife though butter and simply drive through your force 10 elemental-spirit?^^

I couldnt mostly because my understanding of all the matrix side is far less then my understanding of the magical side. Easier rules lead to easier arguments in some aspects

@Ascalaphus


What does this mean?
The mage will gain more and more power, while the sam will hit a cap for shooting things at probably 23 dice (skill 7, agility 12, Smartlink 2, Reflex Recorder 1-2) . Damage will depend on what kind of gun and ammunition he uses.

The mage starts out with maybe magic 5 (due to the rules probably reduced to 3 due to ware) and spellcasting 6. Using BP-Gen, he will probably get a force 4 Powerfocus.
Leaving him with 3+6+4= 13 dice (without powerfocus 9). Not very much, of course. The sam will have at least: Agility 8, Skill 4, Smartlink 2-> 14 dice

Now, only looking at this subject, the mage will loose to the sam for sure.
The sam will also have the Karma to increas his defence and resistance pool.
Even if you consider versatility the mage will loose.
The sam can just take different kinds of ammunition, while the mage needs to pick up another combat spell.
So the mage will be weaker!

Lets give both a bit improvement:
The Sam will soon hit his augmented cap for agility and probably reaction too. Body is harder to raise and I guess Willpower will be increased with Karma too.
So the Sam will end up with: Agility 9 (or 12), Body 6-7, Willpower 4-5 and a gunskill of at least 6.
The mage will probably raise magic to 6 and have 2-3 initiations. Maybe raise reaction and Body too, but I guess he won't get higher than 4.
The pool of the sam will be around 18 to 22 dice, the mage will be around 12 to 16 dice.
Still you see, that the sam is much stronger.

But know we try to pick up "feats" beyond the scope of those abilities.
Healing for example. The Sam starts with his dicepool of skill(which will be low)+Logic(which will be low)+medkit (6). He will be around 10 to 12 dice here. (And we know first aid needs three hits in order to heal at all)
The mage picks up the "heal" spell and starts with 6+6+(probably 4)= 12 to 16 dice (and no need for two additional hits!).

While the sam needs to build up a lot of new areas from the ground up the mage is able to "copy" a lot with magic.
True some things can't be copyed with magic, but some magic can't be copied with technology, in reasonable limits.
As you advances the sams pools are starting to cap out, while the mages pool my be raised a bit higher. (Well, magic beyond 8 is just too expensive, but there are things as ally spirits to get an additional boost)

And as a little bonus to that, the damage and the pool for the combat (which was our primary focus) will increase too.
In the beginning the mage was probably able to throw a llightning bolt with DV 4, without hurting himself. With centering-metamagic and a bit higher drain attributes this will be now probably around DV 8.
While starting out weaker than SnS he has now left SnS behind.

This is theory. The practise looks like that: we are 2 sams and one mage in our group. Our chars. are all equally old and in the meantime we earned app. 200 karma. While my mage still runs around with body 3, all the sams maximized their physical attributes by either the expense of karma or they simply put in a lot of ware (and they still have a lot of room left, they didn´t even have to use increased quality-ratings like beta or delta). They also increased their primary skills to max and (of course) enhanced their gizmos and weaponry. The only things i managed to do in the same time, was raising magic to 8, edge to 5 and i initiated 3 times. So now tell me, WHEN will it happen, that i am better than the sams? 200 karma is nothing, i know about 20 spells and i still ain´t a jack-of-all-trades that is discussed here so much. And i also want to point out ONE SINGLE but VERY IMPORTANT thing: during all this time, i layd on the ground with deadly wounds more than 6 times. Every time could have been the end of this char. The sams on the other hand, survived much better because of their higher skills, attributes and therefore armor ratings. If you compare a sam with an elven theoretical mage in a megacorp, yes the elf will simply outshine the sam in app. 20 years. ^^ But i play shadowrun and the life in the shadows is fast and hard. Outliving my opponents is not an option.

Healing: who are you usually going to heal? I heal comrades, packed full of cyberware. This means serious reductions of dice pools. If i heal myself, i am seriously wounded, so also reduced dice-pool and most of the time, sombody else is going to heal me. But if am just moderate or minor wounded, yes in this case i can heal myself better than the sam....if he ain´t got a high-rating medkit, a low logic AND a low first-aid-skill in bad circumstances. Not really comparable.

Shell casings, DNA samples, camera images, etc. - but the mage leaves them too ^^

double

@Machiavelli
In your game?
I would say (if you need to buy everything I am thinking of) maybe 80 Karma and 20k cash.

Rather then saying 80 karma and 20k cash can you list it otherwise it sounds like a thrown out there number

@Lansdren
Go somewhere with an adepted BC of 2. (Lifestylerules)
Initiate or get quickening metamagic. (15 Karma or (10+9)*discount)
Get masking, get extended masking. (I guess he already has those two of those)
Buy binding materials for 3*5Force points.
Bind 3 Force 5 Spirits (Hope you get at least 5 services, if not you may want to bind an additional spirit) (30K, I thought the binding was just 1k per point of Force)
Get Combat reflexes. (5 Karma)
Get Increase drain stat. (5 Karma)
Get Increase drain stat2. (5 Karma)
Get Increase Reflexes (5 Karma)
Get Increase Body or Increase Reaction (5 Karma)
Cast 1.Spell on you Force 8. Let the three spirits help you. (for 5+3+3) additional dice. You do this in area with aspected BC for another +2 and you have probably spellcasting 6 and Magic 8. This leaves you with 6+8+2+5+3+3=27 dice (which translates into 8-9 hits), depending on rule interpretation add edge to reroll or up front to get hits over the force limit.
The spells should have around 10 to 11 hits. If not, recast.

And since in his group you can walk through wards with quickend spells, as long as you mask them...
You now have a character with augmented max in 3 attributes, 4 Initative passes and up to 12 additional dice to evade incomming attacks.

I am fairly certain that Aid Sorcery from Spirits can only be done by one spirit at a time per casting of a Sorcery.

Ok interesting list there I'll give you that but here are my thoughts on them

Positive background count is a GM agreed thing granted its in lifestyle but its a pretty generous one at that has to be said if you were at all concerned about mages being overpowered.
karma cost of the quickened spells comes in at minimum of 24karma for something that can be taken away from them in theory (I would also add taken away without any negatives to the character unlike taking cyberware away from someone)


This also takes into account that the character we are discussion initiated three times and raised his magic to 8 (a massive cost in itself 75karma from 6 - 8 magic plus initiations 48karma less group stuff)

To get your end game kind of godlike mage we are talking250 - 300 karma only going into magical pursuits. I don't know what kind of games you have been playing but that level of karma in my games would be a major investment in real world time or very kind GM'ing plus during the same time any Street Sam would have expanded his skill set dramatically with the same level of karma being awarded. I'm my group we are averaging about 10 - 15 karma per run each run taking three sessions (lead in - main action - lead out).

I agree in theory that with unlimited karma and time a mage has potential for unlimited growth but that's based on a false premise of unlimited karma and time.

edit for spelling

That does seem like a ridiculous example.

@Lansdren: thank you for this statement, i saved me from posting it by myself. 100% agree.

Mages with 400 BP´s suck, and to keep them alive until they are equal to something takes a lot of time and even more karma. So if your GM doesn´t plows you tons of karma in your chromed a**es, you shouldn´t have a problem with a mage character. You should rather show some pity and understanding for these poor souls that wander on this hard and lonesome path. ^^

I don't think that logically follows from one extreme example, though. Mages are plenty strong out of chargen, even without Restricted focus twinkery, etc.

Not in my world.^^ Maybe i do character creation wrong since....a long time.^^

Well, in my group the sam reliably kills 1-2 enemies per ip, and the mage (magic 6, spellcasting 6, combat spec, combat mentor, power focus 2) wipes the floor with non-drone opposition (overcasting stunball) - 4 times per turn, while being invisible. After 2 sessions i asked him to tone down a bit, because it was no fun for the others when he took out the opposition alone, and no fun for him when i gave the opposition a counterspelling expert (initiated shapeshifted mage with masking, shielding shielding focus 4, masking focus 4).

Following (mechanical) problems occurred:
- Overcasting is way too easy. "P" drain is just useless if it is only a few points
- Direct (AOE) combat spells are overpowered - they are the only thing wich reliably hit their targets (no stupid scatter) and are only reduced with one roll (against every other thing you get to dodge first and then you can resist the damage)

@Yerameyahu
Well, it is based on a ridiculous interpretation of the rules. So what did you expect?

@Lansdren
The question I awnsered to:

Yes, I did not quote it because I addressed my post directly to person asking this question. And since there was only one question...

So, if you want to argue with me show me where you actually disagree. (Well, the first did not take into account 5 spells, only 3 because I thought you could only quicken as many spells as your Initiation grade)


@darthmord
I thought that too, but could not find it. I know about the rules, that every spirit but the first may apply a sustaining modifier. But I can't find a rule telling I can only have aid soccery by one spirit. May be in one errata or somewhere in Streetmagic. (Where the Ward alias Wall became a Wall which calls home if you try to climb it...)
But actually it would not change much, you would need to use one force 6 spirit and maybe get a spec.

@Machiavelli
Or you might just have a different definition from powerfull. Which others may see as invincible.

@Nil_Fisk: I have a clue for you: don´t put the enemies in proper line of sight like in high-noon. Take him some dice through movement modifiers, lighting conditions, cover etc. and don´t be ashamed to bring up magical opposition. If he goes on like that, the team will be well recognized for having a mighty mage, so somebody who is going to confront your team will be prepared. Dispell his sustained spells from the astral and wait with a proper manabolt until he is going to switch his vision. He seems to have a lot of sustained spells: increased reflexes at max. and at least a spell-lock with improved invisibility. A lot of work for you. Give one of these goons a ultrasound-google and shoot him in the face....do what you want. You are the GM...this means you are GOD in this world.

Edit:

AOE-spells habe a limited range and affect everybody in range that the mage sees. So take care that his team-members will also be affected if he starts to freak out (small rooms, tight streets etc.) If he ever shoots down his comrades, THEY will do the job for you to kill him. ^^

Maybe it would actually work better if overcasting didn't turn the Drain to P, but instead doubled the S drain.

As for AoE-spells: I think it's better to improve grenade scatter rules, and therefore raise Sams, rather than try to bring down mages. Although altering the drain code for Direct-AoE spells might be an idea.

Taking away a few dice dont change the fact that direct combat spells are overpowered, because you only need 1 net hit for them. And all dice i take from him in form of lightning conditions etc. i have to take from the opposition too. Anything that wants to dispell a spell from the astral meets a F6 Guardian Spirit. The only magical opposition that survives after CR1 is either absolutely overpowered (and kills the party) or uses mage-sight (The Shapeshifter physad takes care of awakened opposition, or the sam) ... and i don't want to dedicate 50% of preparation just for designing opposition for the mage, whereas every other char just works fine.

btw: a "Zauberspeicher" is called "sustaining focus" in english ^^

We now use a gentlemans agreement that we dont use overcasting as SOP, only when the shit really hits the fan. Also, every point of overcasting gives a temporary point of the "cursed" quality.

Right...^^

Take option 2, shoot him in the face. Cameras can point him and sombody else with radar or ultrasound makes a long burst. Direct combat spells are powerful, but this doesn´t make him invincible.

Cameras can point him, if you see through his infiltration test - which is a "bit" harder with F6 concealment and a chameleon suit.

Nobody is invincible, but i think it is unreasonable to dedicate most of the resources of the run in "what can i do to nerf/geek the pc mage". I can always place a sniper and just shoot him, or drop a piano on his head, but this is a dick move. Also, most reasonable resistance outside of SWAT/HTR and other shadowrunners seldom have radar sense or ultrasound as standard equipment.

Without overcasting as SOP and the strange direct combat spell mechanics i don't see a problem with mages in tactical combat (except for maybe possession mages). Indirect spells just work fine, but they are vastly inferior to direct spells (more drain, reaction AND body test to reduce damage, leave physical traces). I think the drain codes of direct and indirect spells should be switched ...

Well, it's -0 for you, because presumably you use the focus for yourself, and then -2 for each individual person beyond yourself. This is much better than the penalty for putting your chameleon suit on yourself and someone else.


If you were a professional criminal, would you take a job you couldn't do, full of opposition that completely outclassed you? If you were hiring someone to do something illegal, would you hire someone that couldn't do the job? Now, that fit's never going to be perfect, and sometimes you have to run away or whatever, but as a general rule, people should get and take the kinds of jobs they're qualified for.


A hit is a 5 or 6 on a die; a success is the actual thing you count for effects. ["Note that scoring one or more hits does not necessarily equal success—it is possible to score hits but still fail a test (if you don’t score enough); see the explanation of tests further on." SR4a, p62.] But it couldn't possibly matter less, I just wasn't sure what you meant.

So you're getting 2 or 3 hits on 12 dice? That's highly irregular!


Well, my full opinion on this is stated upthread, but the short form is that I think it depends on the version, the situation, the "character level," and what we mean by "power." Mostly my experiences thus far have been that a starting mage is slightly weaker than some other types of characters, but that as the power level creeps upward, mages typically outpace their team in overall capability. I haven't seen this yet in SR4a, because we play exclusively around the 400 point level, but from what I can gather by reading, it'll probably stand true for this version, as well, I think.


Oi! That's a major change in SR4. That absolutely changes the dynamic of Masking. I don't think it makes Shapechange impractical - although it places a serious ceiling on what sorts of beings you can use it around! - but it absolutely changes the situation. Good looking out: I hadn't noticed the rule had changed [and it hasn't come up in our game, yet, since we've no one in SR4 capable of Masking!].


They absolutely do. Forensic trace and ballistic evidence is everywhere. SR4 doesn't make much of it, but if you've got a copy of Lone Star, there's some good material in there about forensics in Shadowrun.

It absolutely does, and at the expense of some serious health, as well: you need a body of 2 or 3 to be these kinds of things, and that's average or worse, and that's a bitter pill to swallow sometimes. ["Seriously? I'm knocked out from the gas again? Good thing everyone else is awake to carry me."] I think it's totally worth it, but it's a massive handicap for a person.


A chameleon suit? I thought they were, like, 8 grand or something, and then another couple for Thermal Damping.


Of course you do! But 8-14 spells is - let me see here, carry the one - about 8 to 14 more than the "sam" gets. Would I take Calm Animal at chargen? No, particularly not with Control Animal. [In my example, I used both, but only for fun: one or the other would have worked just fine.] I'm not even sure I'd take that: more likely, I'd just take Stunball and be done with it. But these spells exist, and magicians can learn them, and no one else can. It produces a type of character with inherently more flexibility than others. I don't think it's a big deal, but I don't see how it's not true.

The other thing about magicians is that they do have some abilities that no one else can replicate, like the ability to quickly heal wounds and the ability to fly. [And be a dog, but we've been over that.] Again, you have a limited number of these abilities, but just 8 to 14 of them is really, really astonishing, and can produce capabilities no one else can replicate even in part.


Could you point me at the reference for magicians needing licenses to practice? We are talking [mostly] about SR4, right?

At chargen, we're not allowed to take Forbidden items; is that not standard?

With a good Face, many things are possible, but that's my point in saying, "Not everyone has the connections to get such licenses."

So you are dealing with the following?:

Mage
Magic: 6
Spellcasting: 6
Mentor that adds dice to combat spells
Power focus force 2
sustained "Increased Reflexes" at maximum power
Force 6 Guardian Spirit that uses his concealment power on him and protects him in the astral
sustained "Improved Invisibility" spell at high rating
Chameleon suit

Correct?

Yes, you really have a problem. He is well built, he knows the rules and he is mighty. YOu can still shoot him in the face, but it will be a little bit harder to get him. If the first one drops and nobody hears a shot, they could simply use blind fire. ^^

well, that was for the first two sessions - after that, he realized that he was ruining the fun for either himself (all his spells got countered) or the team (he did most things practically alone), so he made another char with less extreme stats.

Chameleon suit w/ Thermal Damping 6 is 11k

Legally, the mage needs a license to practise magic - but most just ignore that. I think it's in the core book, in the chapter about licenses and IDs.

By RAW, items at chargen are only limited by the aviability rating of 12, not by the legality code (-/R/F).

Correct.