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Irion
@Midas
QUOTE
Good pick up on the size of wards, although there is nothing in the rules to say a mage group of mages can't erect a cubic ward 1/2m thick for each wall, the floor and ceiling.

Yes there is. Wards have to be at least 1m thick... And this was the thing I was talking with 3278 about the whole time. How to ward big buildings.

And here all those problems emerge if you may build wards through astral forms, espacially the earth..

QUOTE
I would also imagine that in all that time since the awakening, some clever construction companies might have developed walls that utilize glo-moss or other living material inside that prevent entrance to astral entities.

Living things do not hinder astral forms. You need awakend Ivy to do the trick.
Midas
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 18 2012, 09:22 AM) *
Here again the magic rules, make you wrong. I have to grant access at the moment I build up the ward.
What does this means? If I want them to be able to help me, I have to grant them access or they will stay outside the ward, while the shadowrunners butcher my employees and rob me.
What does this mean? The security of the place has to be that high, that it operates as a stand alone. So you are running with "hot" data in a place with probably even higher security than the place you just robbed.
And now with this "so high" security, it is to hope that they do not have a mage on astral, which is putting one and one together.

I am not saying there are no possibilities to shake astral tails, even without going astral. But it gets much harder if you have several guys following you.
And it is not like they do not have any possibility to slow you down, for example summoning a spirit.
Yes, if you plan ahead and have one of your own wards in a chocking point... the best possibility would be an alarm ward, which will be holding the following mages.
(Or at least one of them an block the way for the rest)
But thats a lof of preparation and a lot can go wrong. (The "holding" ward, may lead you to kill some kiddy mage)

Yeah, if you do this as civilian. But I guess a civilian won't be hunting you. This will be probably guys from Lonestar, which have contracts with the bank, too.
So I guess they are able to comunicate their problem... (Worst, one mage has to report back to base...)


If I did understand Cheops correctly, he did not have a mage to take care of the fist step....
This is what I am saying the whole time. You need to get astral superiority, or you have a problem.
To everything there is a counter in SR. But magic can only be countered by "more magic".

While I agree that magic is best trumped with magic, I am definitely not on the side of the MagicRun proponents who say if you don't have magic, you're screwed. For game balance, mundanes need to have methods of shaking off astral pursuit, else every single runner team that has no mage is dead in the water. While it seems most if not all PC runner teams have at least one awakened member, SR canon and the 1% stat does imply the existance of runner teams without any awakened members, and for such teams to even exist it follows there must be ways for them to shake off astral pursuit. OK, back to the ducking into the warded bank to shake an astral tail example:

I was imagining CorpSec pursuit, but let's make it LoneStar as you suggest. And let us assume the bank is warded to protect customer privacy. Let's assume for arguement's sake that there is a patroling spirit with standing orders to politely detain anyone who comes through the ward, while it waits a few rounds for one of the wage mages from astral HQ to arrive and deal with the astral customer. (Remember, spirits have an imperfect understanding of the material world so their instructions cannot be too complicated.) Astral pursuer has 2 choices:

1) Force his way through the ward, setting off an alarm and getting accosted by the spirit. When wage mage appears, the astral cop can identify himself and get on with his pursuit. This will take some time (especially if the wage mage needs to verify astral cop's badge number or anything), by which time the runners have got away. Alternatively, the cop can fight the spirit, but unless he's a powerful mage or the bank has been stingy with a low-force spirit this is likely to take a few rounds and will also have legal ramifications for the poor cop.

2) Request permission to enter ward. This too will probably take time enough for the runners to make good their escape through another exit.

Obviously a non-astral cop would be wearing a uniform, and would probably just have to flash his badge to security as he enters the building, but one problem with astral entities is that they do not have uniforms or badges. Hence whichever way you look at it, an astral lone star cop would have some time-wasting explaining to do to get inside a warded area.

You lose me as to why the runners are going to rob the bank and murder employees, I thought they were just planning to slip an astral tail, but that's what the bank's mundane security is there for. Sure, if some astral entity materializes and says "Those guys are terrorists!", physical security will keep an eye on them, but they probably won't make a move to detain the runners if they look like and are acting like normal citizens until the security guards have verified the astral cop is who he says he is (again, takes time).

True, the astral pursuer can throw up spirits to slow down their quarry (although not in my game, because as I stated wa-ay back in this thread I house-rule that summoning takes 1 min/force, although previously bound spirits can be called up in 1 round).

Other ways to slip an astral tail are Infiltration, which by RAW works against astral onlookers, and shadowing. Melting away in a crowd should be possible: like in the movies, it can be hard to see the bad guy in a crowded mall.
Midas
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 09:50 AM) *
@Midas

Yes there is. Wards have to be at least 1m thick... And this was the thing I was talking with 3278 about the whole time. How to ward big buildings.

And here all those problems emerge if you may build wards through astral forms, espacially the earth..


Living things do not hinder astral forms. You need awakend Ivy to do the trick.

OK, even at 1m thick a mage or group of mages should be able to build a ward per wall.

I thought astral beings couldn't go through living things, but I'll take your word for it, awakened ivy walls it is ...
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 10:50 AM) *
Living things do not hinder astral forms. You need awakend Ivy to do the trick.

There are some other things except awakened Ivy:
Arsenal, p.64: Biofiber (sheets placed in the Walls)
Street Magic, p.127: Guardian Vines (they even defend themselves against intruders, but there are no stats given for their combat pools -.-)

I think the Pentagon or other high security areas will have biofiber in their walls/floor/roof, zero windows and normal wards (maybe in combination with alarm/trap wards) on every entrance, and maybe additional GloMoss or haven lilies in "No Magic" areas.
Ascalaphus
Wouldn't extraterritoriality apply to the astral plane co-locating to extraterritorial ground as well? If an astral cop mage forces his way onto the Warded space of say, a bank, wouldn't he be in major trouble?

I think the bank would be supported by the corporate court if it used a "shoot first" policy against astral intruders. After all, anyone could fly in, claim to be a cop, and then cause damage to the bank's financial machinery. Can't have that.
Irion
In general:
The first question would be if public areas of the bank are really warded. I would not go that far.
At all it is probably a ward build up cheaply by a spirit, which is now on the metaplane. Just to keep out punks and astral pests.
The rooms where the financial talk takes place will all be warded seperatly. (Can't have some guy walking into your bank and spying on everyone...)
Same for the safe.

So I guess the public room is really public. The ward will trigger for every spell etc. And if you have intruders you want the police to be able to get in. (Not in your privat stuff of course, if the guys made it into the vault the question is to call the police or to negotiate with the intruders.)

And even more important: The guys handeling the request (if it is like today behind a Glasswall), should also be protected from mental manipulation. This is best achieved if they are enclosed in a ward seperating them from the public area.

Actually I can't think of any reason why to ward the public area. Sure, somebody could attack one of your customers from the astral plane, but he also could just attack a customer which is just leaving your bank... (But again if you do not houserule this part, there is no reason the following mage should not just take out the runners one by one with a spirit suprise attacking them)

QUOTE ("Midas Jan 19 2012 11:19 AM
")
You lose me as to why the runners are going to rob the bank and murder employees, I thought they were just planning to slip an astral tail, but that's what the bank's mundane security is there for. Sure, if some astral entity materializes and says "Those guys are terrorists!", physical security will keep an eye on them, but they probably won't make a move to detain the runners if they look like and are acting like normal citizens until the security guards have verified the astral cop is who he says he is (again, takes time).

This is another problem. Due to the matrix it takes almost no to to verfiy something if you have proper channels.
NiL_FisK_Urd
sure, but how can you verify a manifesting mage using the matrix?
Irion
@NiL_FisK_Urd
The guy who is checking his story...
Lansdren
You know what I'm still waiting for someone to put up one of these mythical monster mage builds.

My money is on any build that is pure magicrun will be so based on questionable setup that any normal GM would send them back to the drawing board.

By questionable I mean

Drastically limited stats in non magic areas (Body 1 is just silly)
Drastically limited skill lists (If a character isnt rounded a bit it doesnt come onto my table)
Unexplanable equipment (Ok so your a street living shaman who just happens to have got hold of the only force six power focus in the city and your still alive long enough to bind it)


From what I'm seeing any my own calculations for a mage to get to silly power levels requires the GM to allow a few things to happen

1) Questionable build
2) Very fast increase of karma
3) Ignoring all rules for increasing skills, stats and initiations.

My point on this one is to learn things or do things take time. Initiating isnt a I suddenly go up a level type of deal if it is for you then I think your rollplaying more the roleplaying.
Irion
@Lansdren
QUOTE
Drastically limited stats in non magic areas (Body 1 is just silly)

Yes, it is. Body is on the PLUS side for meditation and also helps you to wear more armor. So at least body 2. If your GM bans shapeshifting in flys or put them to body 1, well body 3 it is.
Strength for beeing a total waste of attribute points, it shall be one.

QUOTE
Drastically limited skill lists (If a character isnt rounded a bit it doesnt come onto my table)

And mundane builds have no problem with limited building points?
QUOTE
Unexplanable equipment (Ok so your a street living shaman who just happens to have got hold of the only force six power focus in the city and your still alive long enough to bind it)

Force 6 powerfocus is not possible at chargen, so no. (And not taking middle lifestyle for all the great stuff it gives you for your first run, is kind of silly.)

Yes, if you "use questionable rules" all bets are off. But now I would be afraid of mystic adepts...
(But that takes it to a whole new level...)
QUOTE
1) Questionable build
2) Very fast increase of karma
3) Ignoring all rules for increasing skills, stats and initiations.

1) Every build is questionable. Actually those powerful mage builds are the least questionable. A streetsam with several skills at 6 is more questionable than a mage with magic 8, because there is never said if magic 8 is high or low, while a skill 6 is pritty clear... Or even a streetsam with strength 6, body 6 and agility 6.... But thats a story for another time.
2) Depends on a lot of variables. If the GM is out for you, yes you need a lot of Karma. But it is the same if the GM is out for the mundane. You need a lot of cash to hide your cyberwear if there are scanners every now and then.
3) No, USING THEM. Read the rules for Initiations. If you build your mage (which is very easy) to use those rules, you will have your initation finished after 4 days for a freaking discount on top of the cake. And I am not aware of any hard rules about learning skills. (One point between adventures, thats really a kick in the balls for the mage...)

Again: I am not saying that you can play like a retarded idiot and you will be still powerful. I am saying that you have to think a bit. But a great increase in power is to be achieved without streatching the limits. (If you do this for the sam, well... Lets say, those poor limits...)
Lansdren
@Irion

That still wasnt a build to prove the point.

You can disagree with my thoughts on what may or may not be a questionable starting point for a character and for most of your points I welcome them because they make me have to rethink and challenge my own opinion, but and this is the important part so far all the scenarios tend to be one off possibilities based on a very specifc set of scenarios. No one mage/shaman could do everything well its just not possible.

During character creation a mage can learn a maximum of six spells. To learn any more requires the use of a downtime period between runs with a minium of two days downtime maybe more to concentrate on learning this new spell. This is on top of the time it took to find the spell formula or write their own. Also spending the five karma for learning the spell (five karma by my reckoning about half the mages karma from the run at best maybe even his whole karma for the run).

This limit in place means that a mage could use all their downtime to up that list of spells until they are a swissarmy knife on two legs but apart form alot of karma thats also a lot of time.

What i'm trying to get at is the pornomancer was a calculated and displayed build which shows how silly it could get (GM allowing) I'm yet to see someone pull a similar one out for a mage. All the anacdotal evidence so far requires multiple spells, multiple initiations and to ignore any skills not magic related. The first too in my mind take time and karma so are not problems at the start the third is a issue to me as it wouldnt work at my table.

I would point out the challenge isnt directed at you Irion its more a open challenge to anyone who wants to prove that mages are over powered.


750 karma normal rules from the books no house rules who can come up with a actual legal build that proves magic is over powered.
Irion
@Lansdren
QUOTE
750 karma normal rules from the books no house rules who can come up with a actual legal build that proves magic is over powered.

As if the rules were clear to begin with...
If I make an myAd, can I use my full magic to determin the power and the limit for my adept powers or only the points I allocated for adept powers?
Whats the body of a bug?
How does essence loss actualy work?
Under which circumstances do spirits resist with edge?
How "smart" are spirits?
Do spirits want to get back at me?
How are spirits handled in combat?
How long does one service last?
How do spirit powers and Wards interact?
Is possession allowed and if how does it work? (What are the limits, how precise do I have to order the spirit)
And of course, if you are not allowed to use initiations mages are only at the beginning of their power.
Same thing with magic and cyberware.
So a mage with 650 Karma generation and 100 Karma ingame (with 6 month of downtime) is probably much better. (one month per skill increase, like mentioned in the core book)
3278
QUOTE (Midas @ Jan 19 2012, 10:12 AM) *
Good pick up on the size of wards, although there is nothing in the rules to say a mage group of mages can't erect a cubic ward 1/2m thick for each wall, the floor and ceiling.

What you're picturing [with the addition Irion points out upthread about having to be 1m thick and not 1/2m] is actually exactly what Irion's been suggesting. I know there's been a little confusion with exactly what it is he means, but yes, you've got the right of it, absolutely.

QUOTE (Midas @ Jan 19 2012, 10:12 AM) *
I would also imagine that in all that time since the awakening, some clever construction companies might have developed walls that utilize glo-moss or other living material inside that prevent entrance to astral entities.

Absolutely. It exists in sourcebooks for earlier versions, specifically Corporate Security, a book which has unfortunately not been brought forward into SR4, largely because much of the gear from it has been introduced in other sourcebooks, but that tragically leaves a great deal of the non-gear material unstated. But yeah, it's totally possible to just have, for example, interior or exterior walls with a living layer which would thus block astral travel. [Unless my group was using some house rule - not impossible! - in previous versions just ivy was sufficient, but I believe this is not true in SR4.]

QUOTE (Midas @ Jan 19 2012, 10:12 AM) *
Creating wards or using "living walls" would be expensive enough that it wouldn't be prevalent, but logically speaking without such possibilities in the game world, everywhere would be open to astral intrusion and as a result secrets would be absolutely impossible to keep ...

That's exactly correct. Wards would mostly likely not be enormous, building-covering constructions, created by teams of hundreds of trained magicians. That's...unlikely for all but a very few choice situations. Instead, they'd be used opportunistically, for rooms or areas which require an extra layer of alertness.
3278
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 12:21 PM) *
The first question would be if public areas of the bank are really warded. I would not go that far.

Me, neither. I don't know how common foci are in your setting, but in mine, this would just be wildly impractical.

QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 19 2012, 01:07 PM) *
You know what I'm still waiting for someone to put up one of these mythical monster mage builds.

I think a lot of the really strong objections don't start until the character has 250+ karma under their belts, is part of why you're not seeing monster starting builds. [Am I right, people who were talking about this earlier?]

QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 03:58 PM) *
Whats the body of a bug?

0, typically [Running Wild, p96, 98]. There are answers to most of your other questions, too, but I don't like to spout shit without a page cite, and today I'm feeling lazy. biggrin.gif
Irion
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 19 2012, 04:19 PM) *
0, typically [Running Wild, p96, 98]. There are answers to most of your other questions, too, but I don't like to spout shit without a page cite, and today I'm feeling lazy. biggrin.gif

Mostly there are several answers wink.gif
Yerameyahu
This is a little late, but I was asleep: biofiber (for walls) has been around for a long time. It's just a huge pain. Glomoss just *glows*. It's hard to say if biofiber is more convenient than ward-walls; it's always been characterized as glitchy and expensive.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 02:58 PM) *
@Lansdren

As if the rules were clear to begin with...
If I make an myAd, can I use my full magic to determin the power and the limit for my adept powers or only the points I allocated for adept powers? Taken from the wording of the quality I would class them as two seperate lines one set is your magic for adept one for spellcasting, whilst this may not be everyones take one it that is how I would run it

Whats the body of a bug? Using Running wild as guidence proberbly 0 based on the stats for a roach, granted this does not cover everything but seems a fair starting point.

How does essence loss actualy work? You buy your magic at full cost to start with then remove off any points lost to essance reduction. For the calculation of raising the attribute again you use the current rating not the reduced one- IE raising magic to five again afterdropping to four costs 25 not 30. But your max magic does drop so you might not be able to raise magic without initiating to raise your max .

Under which circumstances do spirits resist with edge? This is totaly under GM fiat and I would avoid house rules myself but I would normally in my games only apply spirit edge under the following things, the mage is disrespectful of the spirits to a silly level (again open to discussion) or Force of the spirit is above the mages magic

How "smart" are spirits? Depends on force obviously but safe to say anything force 6 or above is proberbly alot smarter then the mage but will not have the same veiwpoint as a metahuman so again open to GM decision

Do spirits want to get back at me? Dependent on play style and tradition I think but generally I would say no

How are spirits handled in combat? The rules imply similar to drones, caperble of making their own decisions based on their situation but not always on the ball (they do come from another frame of reference to us) and again depends on if astral or real world

How long does one service last? Varys upon request, for example if you were under attack and said "defend us" the service might last until there is no one attacking you - if the request was conceal us then it might list until the concealment is penertrated or otherwise defeated.

How do spirit powers and Wards interact? Cant find actual ruling on that one but I would assume similar to spells - but thats just gut instinct on that one

Is possession allowed and if how does it work? (What are the limits, how precise do I have to order the spirit) Id allow it if its part of the tradition but I would say the wording has to be good

And of course, if you are not allowed to use initiations mages are only at the beginning of their power.
Same thing with magic and cyberware.
So a mage with 650 Karma generation and 100 Karma ingame (with 6 month of downtime) is probably much better. (one month per skill increase, like mentioned in the core book) How about 750 plus the 100 karma with a explination of where that extra karma went and the time used to learn things just to make it fair.

Cheops
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 19 2012, 11:34 AM) *
Wouldn't extraterritoriality apply to the astral plane co-locating to extraterritorial ground as well? If an astral cop mage forces his way onto the Warded space of say, a bank, wouldn't he be in major trouble?

I think the bank would be supported by the corporate court if it used a "shoot first" policy against astral intruders. After all, anyone could fly in, claim to be a cop, and then cause damage to the bank's financial machinery. Can't have that.


You're absolutely correct. And I would totally allow this to work in my games if the players set things up ahead of time. Ducking from extraterritorial to extraterritorial is a time honored tradition of the genre. It also awards players who spend the time and points to start with or cultivate Contacts. Of course, there better be a secret exit from that bank or else the cops can just park some surveillance drones and wait for you to leave...

--------
Challenge accepted:

Magic 4
Spellcasting 5
Spells 10 (Levitate, Shapechange, Influence, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Detect Enemies (Extended), Trid Phantasm, Stabilize, Increase Body, Increase Willpower)

That's 95 bps unless my math is wrong (24% of resources). Bump that to 97 to make sure we get our Middle Lifestyle. That leaves 303 points to play with. 200 gets us 3's in all stats and leaves 103 for skills and resources. You're allowed to have 2*MAX(Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting) skill in starting spells. 18 points gets you Pistols 4 and a kick ass pistol (10,000 nuyen to spend on it) and another 20 points gets you Summoning 4 and all the versatility that 5 spirits give you.

I'd say that's a very well rounded mage that can cover a hell of a lot of bases. Levitate and Shapechange can cover a lot of your athletics situations (although Shapechange is fairly last ditch). You've got the starter mental manipulation which becomes overpowering with 10 karma. You've got the starter detection kit. You've got the Mission: Impossible spell to complement Influence. Then you have a non-Trauma patch method of people not dying (less chance of damaging cyber or body parts), you've got your Drain booster, and you've got your survivability or Shapechange aid.

All that's missing is some creativity on the player's part!
Ascalaphus
As with my example with the tunnel with BGC in it before, I was assuming that you do prepare such an escape route ahead of time. If the players forgot all about the getaway, they did it to themselves.
Lansdren
@Cheops


Thank you for that, it looks interesting but apart from some nice utility its not overpowered.

With only six dice in for drain your going to be taking some damage quite often (not counting the boost to willpower I know)

Until your multiple initiated you’re not going to be running with those spells on you all the time you will stick out like a billboard on the astral so they are either a infiltration nightmare or a dead weight in some situations not even counting wards. Same goes for shapechange in some respects.


The builds good and I agree cleaver but I’m not seeing it as overpowered
pbangarth
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jan 19 2012, 11:20 AM) *
Challenge accepted:

Magic 4
Spellcasting 5
Spells 10 (Levitate, Shapechange, Influence, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Detect Enemies (Extended), Trid Phantasm, Stabilize, Increase Body, Increase Willpower)

That's 95 bps unless my math is wrong (24% of resources). Bump that to 97 to make sure we get our Middle Lifestyle. That leaves 303 points to play with. 200 gets us 3's in all stats and leaves 103 for skills and resources. You're allowed to have 2*MAX(Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting) skill in starting spells. 18 points gets you Pistols 4 and a kick ass pistol (10,000 nuyen to spend on it) and another 20 points gets you Summoning 4 and all the versatility that 5 spirits give you.

I'd say that's a very well rounded mage that can cover a hell of a lot of bases. Levitate and Shapechange can cover a lot of your athletics situations (although Shapechange is fairly last ditch). You've got the starter mental manipulation which becomes overpowering with 10 karma. You've got the starter detection kit. You've got the Mission: Impossible spell to complement Influence. Then you have a non-Trauma patch method of people not dying (less chance of damaging cyber or body parts), you've got your Drain booster, and you've got your survivability or Shapechange aid.

All that's missing is some creativity on the player's part!


This looks like a good framework for a useable PC. I don't see it as being an unstoppable mage, though. That is what Lansdren asked for.

Does this mage have the Increase BOD, WIL on all the time? giving -4 to all tests? The detection spells are great, but do not allow casting of spells through them, so the mage still has to get to the target. He has no magical combat ability, so he is as good as his pistol in combat. Like the mundanes. The Influence is very useful, and for this mage is resisted every 12 seconds, each resistance roll wearing away hits. Even with the max of 4 hits someone with a WIL of 3 will shake it off in a minute or less, less particularly if he is made to do something he thinks is wrong. So, good short-term effect. This mage would not cause a GM who is fair in his dealings with the PC any trouble at all.
Yerameyahu
It certainly doesn't resemble some of the builds I've seen around here.
NiL_FisK_Urd
@Landsdren:
Well, take a mage (Magic 6, Metatype: Elf or Pixie) with voodo tradition, who specialises in summoning and binding with soft-maxed drain stats. Get a F4 power focus and a lifestyle w/ an Aspected Domain. Then do the following with the 100 karma:

join an initiatory group -5 Karma
initiate, learn channeling -8 Karma
initiate , learn Ally Conjuring -10 Karma
Now, create a F6 possession ally spirit with the remaining 77 karma.

With 114 Karma, you could raise your Magic to 7 and bind a F7 ally spirit

Then start to multicast stunballs with a DP modifier of 10 or more if you have a spec or mentor. While being posessed and concealed.
Irion
@Lansdren
One little question: How many points am I allowed to put in attributes and how much do those attributes cost? (x5 or x3?)
And what kind of races are allowed?

@NiL_FisK_Urd
Yes, this was my line of thinking too. (But maybe even just a "normal" tradition. Because an allyspirit who can drop out of nowhere is not that bad. And the rules for possession after the FAQ are not that nice)
Since he said Karmagen, the powerfocus gets expensive.
Force 4: 8*4+25.000*4/2500= 72 Karma +10 for restricted gear... (Compared to 29 BP)

The next problem is you need to perform an ordeal if you want to drop the costs. The only ordeal you can perform without GM-Fiat or horrible drawbacks is meditation.
NiL_FisK_Urd
@Irion:
I would say 375+race cost[BP]*2
Attributes *5
Race cost is like BP
All races allowed
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 19 2012, 07:43 AM) *
During character creation a mage can learn a maximum of six spells. To learn any more requires the use of a downtime period between runs with a minium of two days downtime maybe more to concentrate on learning this new spell. This is on top of the time it took to find the spell formula or write their own. Also spending the five karma for learning the spell (five karma by my reckoning about half the mages karma from the run at best maybe even his whole karma for the run).


Highlighted Text is absolutely WRONG. You may learn up to 2x Spellcasting/Ritual Spellcasting Skill in spells. So, with a Skill of 6 (Crazy, I know), the Mage could start with 12 Spells. Just wanted to point that one out. smile.gif
Ascalaphus
Well, the multicasting F4 Power Focus is indeed certainly an exploit... it's hard to dispute the RAW, but I don't like the result.

Personally, I don't really see the need for Restricted Gear to be allowed. Unless you have some amazing concept that requires a rare and unusual gizmo. Not a bland yet hefty Power Focus.

I wonder if it would cut down on the multicasting if you resisted all the Drain in one big heap?
Irion
@Ascalaphus
It would just make multicasting not usable...
Yerameyahu
Good! biggrin.gif
Midas
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 11:21 AM) *
In general:
The first question would be if public areas of the bank are really warded. I would not go that far.
At all it is probably a ward build up cheaply by a spirit, which is now on the metaplane. Just to keep out punks and astral pests.
The rooms where the financial talk takes place will all be warded seperatly. (Can't have some guy walking into your bank and spying on everyone...)
Same for the safe.

So I guess the public room is really public. The ward will trigger for every spell etc. And if you have intruders you want the police to be able to get in. (Not in your privat stuff of course, if the guys made it into the vault the question is to call the police or to negotiate with the intruders.)

And even more important: The guys handeling the request (if it is like today behind a Glasswall), should also be protected from mental manipulation. This is best achieved if they are enclosed in a ward seperating them from the public area.

Actually I can't think of any reason why to ward the public area. Sure, somebody could attack one of your customers from the astral plane, but he also could just attack a customer which is just leaving your bank... (But again if you do not houserule this part, there is no reason the following mage should not just take out the runners one by one with a spirit suprise attacking them)

<!--QuoteBegin-"Midas Jan 19 2012 11:19 AM
"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Midas Jan 19 2012 11:19 AM
")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You lose me as to why the runners are going to rob the bank and murder employees, I thought they were just planning to slip an astral tail, but that's what the bank's mundane security is there for. Sure, if some astral entity materializes and says "Those guys are terrorists!", physical security will keep an eye on them, but they probably won't make a move to detain the runners if they look like and are acting like normal citizens until the security guards have verified the astral cop is who he says he is (again, takes time).
This is another problem. Due to the matrix it takes almost no to to verfiy something if you have proper channels.

OK, perhaps only certain parts of a bank will be warded, but if this is the case there will be some kind of astral security to protect customer privacy, hence my suggestion of a spirit ordered to politely detain astral intruders and wait for a wage mage to project there from regional HQ. As Ascalaphus said, extra-territoriality complicates the astral cop's situation. Your claim that it takes "almost no time" to verify something by proper channels is pretty ridiculous - try roleplaying the scene with a stopwatch: Cop manifests, gives his name and badge no to bank employee, bank employee inputs the badge number on encrypted bank-LS priority channel, LS operator checks name and badge no match and responds in affirmative, bank employee tells spirit the astral cop is OK. My guess is it would take 30s to 1 min (10-20 combat turns, 50-100m at normal walking rates), by which time as well as being tipped off they have an astral tail the PCs can be out of the bank, over the road and into a side alley. If all the bank employees are busy, there may be further delays as they apologise to the customer they are currently dealing with before inputting that data etc.

Due to extra-territoriality, the cop cannot engage in hostilities with the PCs or ask security to detain them until he has verified his status, if at all: the bank will not want a scene caused inside if it can be helped. The astral cop will almost certainly be assumed hostile and attacked by the spirit if he decides to pursue the PCs (who could be valued customers) once the spirit has accosted him - again, remember spirits have an imperfect understanding of the material world, and need very specific instructions regarding their task which will not include all eventualities such as "However, should an astral entity show up and claim it is a cop ... "; and as Nil Fisk pointed out, if the bank security protocol allows carte blanche to any Tom, Dick or ghost claiming to be a cop, this would be a very serious security exploit.

Remember, one of the major points of Shadowrun IS the balkanization of the state and corp extra-territoriality: the privitized police force and corps have much more manpower and resources than the runners, but runners can evade capture precisely because these competing behemoths need to tiptoe around each other all the time.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 19 2012, 06:21 PM) *
@NiL_FisK_Urd
The next problem is you need to perform an ordeal if you want to drop the costs. The only ordeal you can perform without GM-Fiat or horrible drawbacks is meditation.

Well, the oath ordeal and the familiar ordeal seem pretty easy to me and also require no GM-fiat ^^
Lansdren
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 19 2012, 05:27 PM) *
Highlighted Text is absolutely WRONG. You may learn up to 2x Spellcasting/Ritual Spellcasting Skill in spells. So, with a Skill of 6 (Crazy, I know), the Mage could start with 12 Spells. Just wanted to point that one out. smile.gif



Yea you are right realised it later, its what you get answering while at work and not taking the time to re read what you put. Im' not inclined to edit my posts to correct them as it feels abit like cheating but your right thats abit of a fuck up on my side.
Lansdren
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 19 2012, 05:12 PM) *
@Landsdren:
Well, take a mage (Magic 6, Metatype: Elf or Pixie) with voodo tradition, who specialises in summoning and binding with soft-maxed drain stats. Get a F4 power focus and a lifestyle w/ an Aspected Domain. Then do the following with the 100 karma:

join an initiatory group -5 Karma
initiate, learn channeling -8 Karma
initiate , learn Ally Conjuring -10 Karma
Now, create a F6 possession ally spirit with the remaining 77 karma.

With 114 Karma, you could raise your Magic to 7 and bind a F7 ally spirit

Then start to multicast stunballs with a DP modifier of 10 or more if you have a spec or mentor. While being posessed and concealed.



Thank you this at least looks more like the stuff people have been throwing around

Ok first thoughts with my GM hat on are

1) Where did you get such high level training
2) Justify the powerfocus - even with the restricted gear quality it is still a very expensive and powerfull focus (this is a role play requirement I would put in for anything expensive regardless of player)
3) Joining a group takes time and roleplay
4) Same goes for each initiation
5) Your more then welcome to creat the fomular for your ally spirit but given this would be a 30, 1 day test based on your logic (not one of your drain stats) and arcana. This might take you a while (maybe two weeks or so) Or a quest which is in the GM's hands. I wouldnt say you cant have it just it wont be easy.

If you have good roleplay you would be able to pursade for the ott stuff but without it it wouldnt get past my sanity check

Also given this is a tradition thats more religion then anything else I would expect alot of roleplay not to piss off the spirits, this is one of the areas that edge might be used by a spirit if your not giving it the respect its expecting.

But this doesnt get rid of all the normal ways of things working in the game your still just a magic user who needs line of sight for things you still get hit by background counts more so in this setup. Your also upping the danger level quickly your first few runs might be cakewalks but they will get harder faster unless you only take easy work.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 20 2012, 10:12 AM) *
Thank you this at least looks more like the stuff people have been throwing around

Ok first thoughts with my GM hat on are

1) Where did you get such high level training
2) Justify the powerfocus - even with the restricted gear quality it is still a very expensive and powerfull focus (this is a role play requirement I would put in for anything expensive regardless of player)
3) Joining a group takes time and roleplay
4) Same goes for each initiation
5) Your more then welcome to creat the fomular for your ally spirit but given this would be a 30, 1 day test based on your logic (not one of your drain stats) and arcana. This might take you a while (maybe two weeks or so) Or a quest which is in the GM's hands. I wouldnt say you cant have it just it wont be easy.

If you have good roleplay you would be able to pursade for the ott stuff but without it it wouldnt get past my sanity check

Also given this is a tradition thats more religion then anything else I would expect alot of roleplay not to piss off the spirits, this is one of the areas that edge might be used by a spirit if your not giving it the respect its expecting.


1) Insert fitting backstory
2) Made it myself (bc. you need arcana for the ally spirit)
3) Get the group as a group contact beforehand, with enough loyalty
4) Initiation with a group takes less time/roleplay than without the group

Getting past your sanity check was not a requirement ^^

QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 20 2012, 10:12 AM) *
But this doesnt get rid of all the normal ways of things working in the game your still just a magic user who needs line of sight for things you still get hit by background counts more so in this setup.

Sure, but i cannot change the rules with a build - casting without LOS/Touch is still impossible, and BGC will hit every mage without filtering.
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 20 2012, 10:12 AM) *
Your also upping the danger level quickly your first few runs might be cakewalks but they will get harder faster unless you only take easy work.

Actually, the first few runs would be hard, because you need all your karma for the spirit.
Irion
@Midas (Jan 20 2012 09:16)
QUOTE
My guess is it would take 30s to 1 min (10-20 combat turns, 50-100m at normal walking rates)

Lets go through it.
Mage manifesting: 1 Komplex action (2 left)
Mage telling whats going on: 2 Komplex actions should be enough. (End round)
Guy needs to repeat it to one kamera so the spider can check: 2 Komplex actions. (Lets say two rounds)
Spider needs to check: Maybe 5 complex action (two or 4 combat rounds)
Ends up with 7 combat rounds->21 sec.

Now we get to the next problem: The bank will have mundane security too. Aka milimeter scanners. Do the runners own weapons? Illegal cyberware? Or do they even have a sin?

QUOTE
The astral cop will almost certainly be assumed hostile and attacked by the spirit if he decides to pursue the PCs (who could be valued customers) once the spirit has accosted him - again, remember spirits have an imperfect understanding of the material world, and need very specific instructions regarding their task which will not include all eventualities such as "However, should an astral entity show up and claim it is a cop ... "

The problem again is: When does the spirit engage. I would ask of him to alert me and interfere as soon as people act "violently". (Possibly subdue guys on the physical and also prevent astral living astral form from passing through my "privacy" wards. (Spirits, mages, critters) Of course offer a warning first)

What you need is a stand alone ward, where there is no way around. But due to the fact, that having a ward is very expensive and wards are quite small, this is tricky. One possibility is to build the ward yourself.
This running through "other corps territory" is a great thing, because the mundane security can't follow you. The spider won't get access to their computers, weapons are probably not allowed. The problem here is, that projecting is actually not illegal.
Lansdren
@Nil_Fisk_Urd

Dont get me wrong I like the stuff you put up but I'm still curious at the rest of the build its looking like a one sided cant do anything else build.

Some of the ideas I would fully support as a GM, a magic user who has the skills to make their own focus makes sense, the ally spirit done well can give alot of flavour to the ongoing story if done well but I'm not really seeing the over powered thing not really. Yes you can buff yourself up with the ally spirit but there is still a lot of things that can be done to stop you being the be all and end all.


This last bit isnt aimed at you

So far the best answers for over powered mages rely on focuses which can be taken away, huge amounts of karma and downtime (which limits how quickly they can grow in a lot of games) and generous GM's. There are a lot of ways in game for magic to be countered not just with magic directly (although as with most things the same force being applied back at something normally works well). I also think that these possible over powered suggestions will tend to be one trick ponies good at a area of magic but not very good at anything else and when they cant use their hammer on nail the character will have problems.








Cheops
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 19 2012, 04:35 PM) *
@Cheops


Thank you for that, it looks interesting but apart from some nice utility its not overpowered.

With only six dice in for drain your going to be taking some damage quite often (not counting the boost to willpower I know)

Until your multiple initiated you’re not going to be running with those spells on you all the time you will stick out like a billboard on the astral so they are either a infiltration nightmare or a dead weight in some situations not even counting wards. Same goes for shapechange in some respects.


The builds good and I agree cleaver but I’m not seeing it as overpowered


Pardon me but based on a lot of the limitations you are throwing around I think you are being a little unfair. You ask for an overpowering, not min-maxed, "no-stink" build and then you trash on perfectly acceptable builds for not being overpowered enough? This mage can handle anything up to about Professional Level 3-4 without too much trouble and any realistic security setups up to High Lifestyle/A-rated neighborhood. By himself. He can handle pretty much any situation pretty well by himself (except maybe hacking).

You'll also note the Title and OP of this thread is "Mages Outpacing Mundanes" so right off the bat your request is absurd. The whole point of this discussion is that as the game progresses we start to get "Linear Fighter Quadratic Wizard" problems common in D&D and other games. By definition that means that we SHOULD be talking about some Karma already being awarded.

Make a more realistic demand and tell us what your "overpowered" conditions are and we'll try to meet them.

Finally: Street Sams don't rely on their gear? Hackers? Riggers!?! The only class that can't have its gear taken away is Technomancer. Spurious arguement.
Lansdren
Your right I am being unfair, it looks to me that discussion moved into a few different areas the one that stuck with me was the mages are all over powered one which I got hooked on.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 20 2012, 01:25 AM) *
@Ascalaphus
It would just make multicasting not usable...


It would make it very unattractive, and that was the intent. I think the dice pool splitting rules as they are should be kept that way; they seem insane at first (Mentor+Specialization on every single split spell?), but make sense if you consider the possibility that you're not necessarily casting one spell, but perhaps different spells, with different modifiers. Also, you'd be applying visibility penalties and such to the individual dice pools too.

So you can stack up dice pools for multi spells pretty high. How to balance against that? By not letting you resist the Drain separately.

You can still cast multiple spells, but it's no longer quite safe to do so at aggressive-Force levels.
Dakka Dakka
Multicasting is already unattractive enough as it is. No need to nerf it further. Just like attacking with two weapons all[ dice pool modifiers apply after the split. If you only add up potential positive modifiers this might look like you get two spells/attacks with a similar pool than casting/attacking once, but usually the attacker faces penalties as well (visibility, wounds, and with an optional rule as of SR4A even cover). Then it looks more like casting twice and not affecting the target twice. Mitigating this problem with a Power Focus is a huge investment and should also give a proportional benefit.

Also there is the increased drain.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jan 20 2012, 01:50 AM) *
Yea you are right realised it later, its what you get answering while at work and not taking the time to re read what you put. Im' not inclined to edit my posts to correct them as it feels abit like cheating but your right thats abit of a fuck up on my side.



Heh... No worries Lansdren... smile.gif
Nath
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jan 17 2012, 12:40 AM) *
Nope, doesn't cover the moderate. 1% of 6,000,000,000 is 60,000,000. Now VITAS really hurt the world pop so that 6 billion is in fact around 4 billion. So that's still 40,000,000 magically active folk in the world. Of that we can set an 8 million Mark on the "trained, fully capable and competent" (read initiate mages and adepts). So looking at that number and the setting we can suppose that leaves 32,000,000 unaccounted awakened (again before SURGE factoring) so if only a fraction of that go mad and only a fraction are aspected and adepts we can safely say 10,000,000 go mad, 10,000,000 are aspected or adepts of Average or Below Average quality and the remaining 12,000,000 are Full Magicians of average or below average quality.
When doing the 1% Awakened calculus, people often forget that nowadays, an estimated 26% is under 15 and 8% above 65. So only two-third of the Awakened population actually fit for service (even if megacorporation probably do child labor wherever possible, learning a teenager to cast fireball and relying on him for security is probably not the wisest move).

Before someone makes the remark, I know elves will keep on working way beyond 65. But as of 2073, only the very small number of elves born before the Awakening are over 62 anyway. Moreover, there's an even larger number of orks and trolls who are not going to live past 65.

Current population in the US is about 310 millions. Two-third of the population is between 15 and 65. So there would be about 2 millions Awakened people (mages and adepts) working. Doing a very quick research, there are about 1,400,000 active military personnel in the US, 600,000 policemen, 600,000 private security guards (minus the off-time police officers), 400,000 prison guards, 300,000 career firefighters and 1,000,000 doctors. That 4.3 millions professionals who would have good (and vital !) reasons to want mages.
Those number allow me to say there would be enough mages in the country (well, in the UCAS, CAS, and so on...) to fill something like a third of those positions with mages, which would seem more than adequate for security to deal with Awakened threats. The problem here is, it would assume a lot of those mages are ready to work for standard cop or guard wages, instead of becoming lawyers or engineers (doctors would get it better indeed).
CanRay
And, again, that number includes all the people whose only "Magic" is the ability to astrally perceive. There's also all the magicians that only have a Magic level of 1, ever. They do rich kids birthday parties and the like.

Then you get to the higher levels. And the Adepts. And the Mystical Adepts.

But doesn't include the Non-Metahuman Sentients.
Yerameyahu
Sapients. But they hardly count anyway. biggrin.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 20 2012, 08:46 PM) *
Sapients. But they hardly count anyway. biggrin.gif
Yeah, well, always let the Sasquatch win! nyahnyah.gif
Moirdryd
That magic rating 1 schtick I addressed back in the rest of the post being quoted from.

Ultimately the numbers are not important as even nightclubs can and do have magic security in canon material. There are street gangs out there which are made up entirely of mages ( three I think in Seattle alone with an average membership of 20), the Ancients also sport a bunch of mages and other gangs have street shaman. There are plenty of independents to fill out character contact rosters and there are at least ten major ritual teams in Seattle alone along with obe for each syndicate operating as well (mafia, triads and yakuza). Lonestar has a magic sec department in Seattle offices, and Knight Errant also has some mirror shades mages on the pay roll. Any actual Big Ten facility in Seattle typically boasts wards, spirits and 24h magic sec as do the Corporate housing enclaves and Arcology complexes.

Ultimately Magisec is where the GM wants it to be and the Canon material will support it.

Yes mages (especially so in SR4 it seems) will eventually outpace mundanes in many ways. Yes it can be hard to challenge them, yes it us doable without dropping a TPK on people.
Midas
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 20 2012, 09:43 AM) *
@Midas (Jan 20 2012 09:16)

Lets go through it.
Mage manifesting: 1 Komplex action (2 left)
Mage telling whats going on: 2 Komplex actions should be enough. (End round)
Guy needs to repeat it to one kamera so the spider can check: 2 Komplex actions. (Lets say two rounds)
Spider needs to check: Maybe 5 complex action (two or 4 combat rounds)
Ends up with 7 combat rounds->21 sec.

Now we get to the next problem: The bank will have mundane security too. Aka milimeter scanners. Do the runners own weapons? Illegal cyberware? Or do they even have a sin?


The problem again is: When does the spirit engage. I would ask of him to alert me and interfere as soon as people act "violently". (Possibly subdue guys on the physical and also prevent astral living astral form from passing through my "privacy" wards. (Spirits, mages, critters) Of course offer a warning first)

What you need is a stand alone ward, where there is no way around. But due to the fact, that having a ward is very expensive and wards are quite small, this is tricky. One possibility is to build the ward yourself.
This running through "other corps territory" is a great thing, because the mundane security can't follow you. The spider won't get access to their computers, weapons are probably not allowed. The problem here is, that projecting is actually not illegal.

As I stated above, I think your timing is a little hopeful (Like I said, if you roleplay the interaction with a stopwatch you might find it takes longer, especially if the bank clerk has to apologise to a customer before paying the manifesting astral cop their full attention, but for arguement's sake even 7 combat rounds is enough for the PCs to leave the bank.

Yes, if the PCs have their game gear, going through a bank armed and dangerous would not be a good idea, so in that case the PCs would have to think of something else. All the same, anywhere they can go that has a ward or astral security that will accost astral intruders should give them enough time to break LOS with the pursuer, and therefore a chance to escape. And while not everywhere, wards are common enough that the PCs should be able to find one at the entrance to a club or a mall or whatever.

You are right that astrally projecting is not illegal, but as astral projecters can eavesdrop on conversations, anywhere where customer privacy is valued (such as a bank) should be taking active steps to discourage astral loiterers. In the case of a bank an astral projecter cannot conduct any business (impossible to verify identity, unable to read numbers or computer screens to confirm transactions, or take receipts of transactions away), so I would imagine banks would look very suspiciously on any astral entity that enters the bank, hence the spirit to accost astral entities that come in.

Show me a bank branch where astral entities are not accosted and politely detained, and I will show you a bank branch where mages can conduct identity theft and identify potential blackmail targets all day long.

You mentioned upthread that mundanes can shake an astral tail: please explain how you think it can be done for the record.
Irion
QUOTE
You are right that astrally projecting is not illegal, but as astral projecters can eavesdrop on conversations, anywhere where customer privacy is valued (such as a bank) should be taking active steps to discourage astral loiterers.

Like Wars, where such conversations take place. (I think they should block sight and sound.)


QUOTE
You mentioned upthread that mundanes can shake an astral tail: please explain how you think it can be done for the record.

Placing a ward in a chocking point (for example tunnel) and then running through it. The best idea would be to use a ward, which captures the guy beeing astral.
This is espacially helpfull if there are a bunch of guy following you on the astral plane. To free the guy, they need to destroy the ward. While you may get away.
(But having a second ward in place won't hurt)
3278
Are you suggesting that having a mundane shake an astral tail requires having, a) a ward, and, b) a tunnel through the living Earth?

How do you erect a ward to trap the astral pursuer?
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 21 2012, 03:46 PM) *
Are you suggesting that having a mundane shake an astral tail requires having, a) a ward, and, b) a tunnel through the living Earth?

How do you erect a ward to trap the astral pursuer?


A Ward is just one of several unpleasant surprises that you could prepare for a mage who just follows you into a tunnel. You could've picked a tunnel with BGC (Toxic spill, place of horrible event, junkie hangout), ghouls in a side-tunnel who'll also cut off the mage's escape route, or with a switch to release FAB III, or other nasty things. Maybe you can engineer a cave-in with demolitions, cutting off the mage's way back?

Point being, pursuing people into a tunnel is scary.
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