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binarywraith
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 16 2013, 12:57 PM) *
You can already get literally brainhacked by a mage.

Why is it different when a dedicated tech guy can do it? Especially when you consider that kind of actual technology isn't too far off from existing in real life?


Hrm. Might have something to do with, as several people before me have noted, older hardware not being vulnerable to this.
apple
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jun 16 2013, 01:51 PM) *
I understand there's a metagame reason, and I may even agree with some of it, but I'd like to see that it's not all metagame handwaving.


But there is only metagame handweaving. There is no logical, believable ingame explanation. Except of course if your googles can catch tiny info bits and thus make you see better or reaction enhancer does not have enough computer power so their firmware is running on dedicated servers somehwere in the world ..

QUOTE
"Sorry, dude, there's a rating 8 jamming field here, your eyes and ears no longer work."


Then you wonīt get the boni.

SYL
Epicedion
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 16 2013, 01:59 PM) *
Hrm. Might have something to do with, as several people before me have noted, older hardware not being vulnerable to this.


That's the trick -- make older hardware vulnerable to this, and then you have all the justification you need for the new stuff having two modes:

1) Crappy but secure

2) Normal but hackable


People forget about some of the mind-affecting spells being pretty nasty. In a game I run, there's a mage that loves to use magic to force the guy in the back of the security team to open fire on the guy in front of him. He hasn't forced anyone to drive their car into the harbor yet, though.
Seerow
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 16 2013, 07:59 PM) *
Hrm. Might have something to do with, as several people before me have noted, older hardware not being vulnerable to this.


You ignored the point.

Let's review. The starting point of the discussion was what if something was developed that allowed hackers to hack a DNI. So then people are encouraged to wirelessly enable everything so their gear gets the protection of their PAN. ie becoming wirelessly enabled makes you MORE secure, not LESS.

The response to this was "OMG BRAIN HACKING BAD"

So I asked why it's considered so bad given it already exists in the game for mages, and the technology for brainhacking isn't that infeasible from a realism perspective.


Anyway, coming back around from that to your question, older hardware would be vulnerable to this. If you had old hardware that was not matrix enabled, and instead set up to use a DNI, you are now very susceptible to a DNI hack that wasn't possible when it was made, but is now. So you now have a very real incentive to upgrade to the Matrix connectivity to get extra protection.



Note: To be clear this whole line of discussion has been based on a "What-if" scenario, and is in no way a justification for the writers' actual direction of "Let's just toss on a bonus that is mostly something you already got before, with no reason behind why it requires wireless connectivity for that bonus to work", because that is dumb.


Edit:
QUOTE
People forget about some of the mind-affecting spells being pretty nasty. In a game I run, there's a mage that loves to use magic to force the guy in the back of the security team to open fire on the guy in front of him. He hasn't forced anyone to drive their car into the harbor yet, though.


My group had a lot of fun with the Alter Memory spell when I made a mage with it.
apple
I repeat myself: to force something to become online in this way is the same as "please wear a glowing pink suit to get +3 initiative. You know, pink makes you aggressive, more adrenaline in your blood etc." Is the same kind of effort as in "your reaction enhancer is now online because of the tacnet inside the reaction enhancer" or "the firmware of the reaction enhancer is not strong enough and needs dedicated server to work with wired reflexes".

SYL

Epicedion
QUOTE (apple @ Jun 16 2013, 02:02 PM) *
But there is only metagame handweaving. There is no logical, believable ingame explanation. Except of course if your googles can catch tiny info bits and thus make you see better or reaction enhancer does not have enough computer power so their firmware is running on dedicated servers somehwere in the world ..


Well that's not really acceptable.

QUOTE
Then you wonīt get the boni.

SYL


lol, boni

So everyone should be a physical adept and cart around the highest-rated jammer they can find to keep mundanes down.
apple
I would rather take the mystical adept ...

SYL
binarywraith
QUOTE (apple @ Jun 16 2013, 01:13 PM) *
I would rather take the mystical adept ...

SYL



Might as well, now you can score a casting and an Adept power focus!

QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 16 2013, 01:04 PM) *
You ignored the point.

Let's review. The starting point of the discussion was what if something was developed that allowed hackers to hack a DNI. So then people are encouraged to wirelessly enable everything so their gear gets the protection of their PAN. ie becoming wirelessly enabled makes you MORE secure, not LESS.

The response to this was "OMG BRAIN HACKING BAD"

So I asked why it's considered so bad given it already exists in the game for mages, and the technology for brainhacking isn't that infeasible from a realism perspective.


Anyway, coming back around from that to your question, older hardware would be vulnerable to this. If you had old hardware that was not matrix enabled, and instead set up to use a DNI, you are now very susceptible to a DNI hack that wasn't possible when it was made, but is now. So you now have a very real incentive to upgrade to the Matrix connectivity to get extra protection.


I didn't address your scenario because it is, was, and shall remain retarded.

Read what you're writing. 'Hacking a Direct Neural Interface.' You are, as is apparently the fashion since 4e's Technomancer idiocy, completely handwaving a whole boatload of issues. If you want to go the 'realism' route, let's start with the basic ones.

1. Obtaining a wireless connection to a device without any wireless hardware.
2. Obtaining remote access to a device with no capability for remote access.
3. Exerting remote control on a device without any software capable of processing remote commands.

You're trying to 'hack' a device that is a man/machine passthrough.

At that point, we don't have to worry about the 'but mages can do it!' question because you've literally waved a magic wand over the tech and said 'IT WORKS BECAUSE WIRELESS'.
Daedelus
First let me say I am sorry for opening this Pandora's box and initiating this threadjacking. I would like to ask those discussing the Matrix bonus issue to please leave it alone now, or start a new thread for it. Lets get back to the real purpose of this thread which is to inform us of rule content not the merits of that content. I hope there is enough respect for our fellow posters to honor this.

I would like to know how the adept gains power points after character creation?

Does the Mystical Adept have to pay a premium over the Phys Ad to gain more Power Points?
KarmaInferno
I for one do not have an issue with wireless bonuses for devices where it makes logical in game sense that a Matrix connection might be an advantage.

However, shoehorning wireless bonuses onto EVERYTHING simply to give hackers more to do just breaks my sense of immersion like crazy. I know it's a game, but I don't want it slapped in my face when I'm trying to get into the head of my characters.

Smartguns working better because they are getting weather, map, and other external data, great! It makes sense, is plausible, fits in universe.

A chemsuit sealing it's vents faster because someone hooked a Matrix feed to it, not so much.


-k
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Daedelus @ Jun 16 2013, 03:29 PM) *
I would like to know how the adept gains power points after character creation?

Does the Mystical Adept have to pay a premium over the Phys Ad to gain more Power Points?

Adepts can take power points instead of metamagics at each initiation.

Adepts get their starting PP free equal to their Magic. MystAds pay for them with Karma.



-k
Patrick Goodman
I will note in passing that not everyone was on-board for the wireless stuff. We lost. Time for me to fade back into the background until someone gets to Helps & Hindrances and starts noting some of what I did....
Sunshine
QUOTE
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jun 16 2013, 12:32 PM) *
This is pretty much what's happening with the 'always online' single-player games.


Yeah, note that Sony's spent the last week making Microsoft look like idiots over this very issue, and winning a lot of goodwill from their potential customers in the process.


And EA the f****d up company killing sim city for me (i didn't want to believe them) and selling 1 Mio copies on day one and this http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/14/console-wa...uy-an-xbox-one/

QUOTE
Except that these things have been working for decades in-game. They've made the explicit choice to continue the existing lore, so they're a little late to the party to write in stuff like this.

apples and oranges - 5th Edition is not the next step of 4th its a different one. It is like the skillwire levels that changed from 3rd to 4th. IMO its not benchmarked 4th against 5th as I am not going to play both games at the exact same time.

QUOTE
Again, the problem is that these are technologies that apparently didn't need this previously. If they want to toss in a major shift in how their technology works, there has to be an accompanying plausible explanation for that shift that answers the question "so why don't we just use the older technology that worked just fine without these penalties?"


As far as I know right now (havent seen the book yet!) it is about bonuses. So your gear still has an advantage, just if you want to stack a bonus on top of it you'd have to go online.

QUOTE
The reason was given by JH in a blog

"Hackers were not useful in combat (because apparently no one uses radio communition, drones or tacnets) so in order to be useful they need something to hack (like items or cyberware). Since everybody (especially the player) however knows, that being online is a potential hacking/detection problem, everybody (especially the players) went offline - which is not acceptable. So to make everything having a price and hackable 8because, you know, hackers cannot do anything in combat) you only get the good goodies if you are online. "

Example given in the blog : your googles with a vision enhancement catches info bits from the air and so you get +3 to perception. But now you are hackable"
That is the official reasoning behind "everything must be online".
My request, that faces can do something in combat (like cursing for killing) was unfortunately ignored.


I get that you are not comfortable with this. I also think that the reasoning sucks for setting plausibility in game because it is no reason for in game. This reason has to be made up by the respective GMs and their players to make their game world consistent.
This shows what gets to me about the discussion: Is it about how JH or whoever explains the out of game reasoning tip of the iceberg of the game development discussion in a blurb or is it "How do I make this plausibly work in may game of SR(5th Edition)?"
btw I am totally backing you up on that "heartstopping swearword face martial art" (Dim Talk derived from Dim Mak comes to mind)

QUOTE
Again: a possible explanation should not lead to new questions or problems.
I want to make sense.


Every argument, especcially in a make believe game, has three possible outcomes:

1) It is circular - hen and egg
2) there is some domagitc "last rule" or premise ("Canon" the almighty book of the LAW)
3) Inifinite regress (Answers leading to new questions, as solutions tend to lead to new problems)

So if making sense is your thing, what is stopping you? But you want others to make sense for you, and thats the real problem here, neh?

QUOTE
And then what happens to you when you step into a jammed, shielded, or otherwise blacked out area? Does all your gear cease functioning correctly?
"Sorry, dude, there's a rating 8 jamming field here, your eyes and ears no longer work."


Oh, you mean how in 4th Edition a Adept/Magician stepping into background count? As far as I know its the bonuses on top that go away, not the functionality, but I will know more when I hold the book in my hands.

QUOTE
I understand there's a metagame reason, and I may even agree with some of it, but I'd like to see that it's not all metagame handwaving.

This I can totally relate to!

love,
Sunshine
apple
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 16 2013, 02:47 PM) *
Adepts can take power points instead of metamagics at each initiation.
Adepts get their starting PP free equal to their Magic. MystAds pay for them with Karma.
-k


1) Mdepts can buy them for Karma (1:2 rating I think) - compared to the other Karma options is that a big "investment", or somewhat minor? What else can you get for the 10 Karma during character generation?

2) Can agents / mook agents still be minor hackers/deckers?

3) Are decks somewhat exclusive to deckers or are the accessible for everyone interested in a high end computer device?

4) Are decks/links still available as implants or cyberlimb accessoir?

5) What does a power focus do (dice or limits)?

6) Besides edge, what else has changed for spirits (armor, movement, spirit power and services etc)

7) Does drain works as in SR4? Are there big changes in drain values compared to SR4?

cool.gif Are the essence costs of cyberware and bioware still added together after halving the lower value?

9) How is the price level? Still cheap cyberware, decks, and items, medium costs for bioware? Or are we back to the 100k Ĩ cyberlimb as in SR3? What about the costs for alpha etc ware or cultured bioware? Can you still reduce the essence costs for your cerebral booster or synaptic booster?

10) How are the cyberlimb rules? Still the mess from SR234 or are they better now?

SYL
Glyph
I would like to know more of the specific content of the wireless bonuses. So far, based on the wired reflexes + reaction enhancer thing alone, I am greatly disillusioned with SR5, and am considering not bothering to pick up the new edition. I tottered along with my basic SR4 book and the changes document, because the anniversary edition screwed up so many things. SR5 seems worse. The fact that everyone turned their wireless off and used DNI should have let the developers know that no one wanted that shit, not had them sit down to figure out a contrived, lameass way to jam it down everyone's throats.

Edit:
I guess two really relevant questions would be:

How easy (or difficult) is it for a hacker to do this cyberware/gear hacking stuff?

What kind of options are available for non-hackers, to protect themselves (how available/expensive/practical is encryption and/or IC, and can it be used to protect these newly vulnerable areas)?
Tashiro
For the record, the concept intrigues me. I'm going to reserve final judgement until I have the book. I see no point in complaining about something I've not read as a whole, to see how it integrates with other aspects of the game.
Shemhazai
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 16 2013, 10:33 AM) *
Why would wireless do that? If your body could not do that on its own, you would not be able to walk. *shrug*

This is fictitious tech that I'm fairly certain is not the official rationale. That said, wireless technology and software exist today that can pinpoint locations, movement direction, and speed. It could quantify those factors into usable data in real time, and be far more precise that the natural coordination of the character.

QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jun 16 2013, 10:25 AM) *
I don't think a purely wired network can do that.

QUOTE (apple @ Jun 16 2013, 10:36 AM) *
And why not?

What non-wireless sensors can you think of that can pinpoint a person's body parts' location in 3D space accurately and in real time? If you moved it, how would it know? Wireless transmitters are very trackable through space by wireless receivers.

QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 16 2013, 10:42 AM) *
They've done that, explicitly, since Shadowtech at the very least.

Via DNI.

It's the whole basis for how Move By Wire works, for drek's sake.

In my imaginary, non-canon technology, the wireless aspect allows the two systems to work together and slightly better.
apple
There is a specific topic for that ...

SYL
Micawber
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 16 2013, 06:18 PM) *
I can only speak for myself here, but that right there would be enough to make me burn all bridges with this edition, because it is just plain stupid.

If a hacker can invade DNI without it needing to be online, there's no reason to play anything that isn't magically active, because you can literally be brainhacked. That is a thing that is so wildly stupid that I almost feel like I need to go place bets that someone'll actually print it.


In Eclipse Phase 'brainhacking' is possible and it's still an amazing game tough I have to agree it wouldn't work that well in Shadowrun wink.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jun 16 2013, 05:02 PM) *
This is fictitious tech that I'm fairly certain is not the official rationale. That said, wireless technology and software exist today that can pinpoint locations, movement direction, and speed. It could quantify those factors into usable data in real time, and be far more precise that the natural coordination of the character.


"Wireless" technology doesn't do that. Accelerometers wirelessly reporting their output do that. Wireless pinpointing can work, but even in the 2070s, perhaps especially in the 2070s, it's not going to be good enough to pinpoint size, location, or motion, better than roughly an area the size of a small car at speed. I want rather greater precision for where my arm is and what it's doing than "somewhere in the room with me" and "doing something" or "not doing something" unless the arm is physically detached from my body.

QUOTE
What non-wireless sensors can you think of that can pinpoint a person's body parts' location in 3D space accurately and in real time? If you moved it, how would it know? Wireless transmitters are very trackable through space by wireless receivers.


To start off, accelerometers.
To continue, literally everything that somehow did exactly that from the 2030s up through 2075. They didn't use fucking "wireless" to feedback the kinesthetic sense the street samurai's arm required for him to do his shooting the 2050s, that's for goddamn certain.
Also, point of interest, LIDAR would do a much, much better job than "Wireless". Do you even have a clue what the word "wireless" means? It means literally nothing more or less than that a given object is equipped to transmit data through a non-hardwired means, most usually radio waves.


QUOTE
In my imaginary, non-canon technology, the wireless aspect allows the two systems to work together and slightly better.


And in my imaginary, wholly-canon technology from, oh, I dunno, the 2050s, 2060s and 2070s up through Shadowrun 5, all of that worked just perfectly when it was directly linked into a character's goddamn nervous system and DNI headware, no goddamn "wireless" necessary.


Seriously! You're just using "wireless" as a vauge magical term to explain everything!
Shemhazai
Whatever works for you. I was just throwing it out there. If you can't suspend disbelief enough to think that maybe in 60 years multiple receivers in close proximity will be able to locate a receiver well enough to allow two separate systems to work better together, then there's nothing I can say. In real life, I know something about this topic.

And to me, things don't need to be the same way that they were in previous editions.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jun 16 2013, 09:06 PM) *
Whatever works for you. I was just throwing it out there. If you can't suspend disbelief enough to think that maybe in 60 years multiple receivers in close proximity will be able to locate a receiver well enough to allow two separate systems to work better together, then there's nothing I can say. In real life, I know something about this topic.


Oh, I can suspend my disbelief roughly that much, if you have multiple transceivers in close proximity (like, three in the foot, two in each segment of leg.)

I cannot suspend my disbelief enough to imagine that that is remotely a superior way of doing things than the way cyberware was done in the past - IE, emulating the nervous impulses that an organic limb would send and sending them along the same channels.


QUOTE
And to me, things don't need to be the same way that they were in previous editions.


This is Shadowrun. New editions are unique in that they explicitly build upon and expand what has come in the past editions. Therefor, what past editions have held to be true must remain historically true in the new edition. New editions don't get to introduce a new way of doing things that is both 100% retarded and obviously worse than the way things worked in the older editions, because then it leaves the logical question of "If a 2075 cyberlimb is so fucking stupid and opens me up to wireless hacks, why wouldn't I want the 2074 model?" Or, more importantly, "I got my cyberlimb in 2072, why on Baal's Blue Earth would I air-quotes "upgrade" end-air-quotes to a 2075 that opens me up to hacking?"
KarmaInferno
As I mentioned before, remember that SR5 does not mean "uses radio or other wireless tranmission technology to operate" when it's talking about wireless.

It means, "connected to the Matrix."


-k
RHat
QUOTE (apple @ Jun 16 2013, 04:27 AM) *
But we know it already ... it was explained by JH in a blog post, both the intention and the implementation. Everything must be connected in order to be able to be hacked and since player characters does not want to be hacked and went offline (disabling wireless except for a very secure commlink and using cable/skinlink for the rest of the PAN, which defeats the purpose of wifi in the first place) they made everything online if they want to have the boni (ex chem seal, vision enhancement, wired reflexes + reaction enhancer).


So you're suggesting that the existence of a design reason means an in-game reason cannot exist?

As for older hardware: If we assume it doesn't get the bonus due to being, you know, older, it doesn't have to be part of this system at all. Wireless bonuses are an over-and-above normal functionality, after all.

Karma: Can you provide some examples of connection bonuses that you consider as not justified? Also, is it explicitly possible to turn off the wireless on a commlink?
Seerow
QUOTE
As for older hardware: If we assume it doesn't get the bonus due to being, you know, older, it doesn't have to be part of this system at all. Wireless bonuses are an over-and-above normal functionality, after all.


But the one cut and dry example that started all of this doesn't reflect that. In SR4 (and probably before, I don't recall) Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes stack. In SR5, they only stack if you enable wireless. People are saying "Why not just use old gear?" because they were very obviously able to have the benefits of the 'new and improved' matrix connected gear without matrix connectivity years ago. This is not a case of a bonus going above and beyond, it's a case of taking a functionality that used to be baseline, and making matrix required to get it.

A similar argument could be made for smartgun (which I believe was stated earlier in the thread to be +2 accuracy without wireless, and +2 dicepool with wireless. Before accuracy wasn't a thing, and +2 dicepool came without any need for connectivity.)
RHat
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 16 2013, 10:21 PM) *
But the one cut and dry example that started all of this doesn't reflect that. In SR4 (and probably before, I don't recall) Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes stack. In SR5, they only stack if you enable wireless. People are saying "Why not just use old gear?" because they were very obviously able to have the benefits of the 'new and improved' matrix connected gear without matrix connectivity years ago. This is not a case of a bonus going above and beyond, it's a case of taking a functionality that used to be baseline, and making matrix required to get it.

A similar argument could be made for smartgun (which I believe was stated earlier in the thread to be +2 accuracy without wireless, and +2 dicepool with wireless. Before accuracy wasn't a thing, and +2 dicepool came without any need for connectivity.)


And yet regardless of that, if your character got his ware in SR4 and was ported to SR5, with no intermediate change in the implants, the old hardware would work the same way as the non-connected new hardware. You can make of that what you will, but that is simply the case. And it is my understanding that such changes preceded the introduction of connection bonuses.

"Why don't people use old gear" is an in game thing, and thus the mechanical changes are relevant only if they reflect an in-game change - which I do not think is the case in these instances.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 17 2013, 01:05 AM) *
As I mentioned before, remember that SR5 does not mean "uses radio or other wireless tranmission technology to operate" when it's talking about wireless.

It means, "connected to the Matrix."


That's even worse. You grok that, right?

There is literally no fucking reason in any ninety hells that your cyberlimb would operate better - like, that you would have better positional data on it, leading to a better kinesthetic sense or whatever - because it's connected to the god-damned Matrix. At least he was talking about vauge possibilities, if you presumed that rather than generating kinesthetic sense the sane way, IE, in the leg and transmitting it the old-fashioned way to your head, that your head was using radio direction and distance finding between multiple nodes in your leg to generate that data.

Pointless and nonsensical, but not even as nonsensical as presuming that for some reason Matrix connectivity makes your leg work better.


QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 17 2013, 01:21 AM) *
But the one cut and dry example that started all of this doesn't reflect that. In SR4 (and probably before, I don't recall) Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes stack. In SR5, they only stack if you enable wireless. People are saying "Why not just use old gear?" because they were very obviously able to have the benefits of the 'new and improved' matrix connected gear without matrix connectivity years ago. This is not a case of a bonus going above and beyond, it's a case of taking a functionality that used to be baseline, and making matrix required to get it.


Exactly. So screw that. I'd rather just have 2072-vintage Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers than these nonsense ones.

QUOTE
A similar argument could be made for smartgun (which I believe was stated earlier in the thread to be +2 accuracy without wireless, and +2 dicepool with wireless. Before accuracy wasn't a thing, and +2 dicepool came without any need for connectivity.)


This is at least slightly excusable what with the addition of the accuracy mechanic constituting the same thing between different combat systems, if you presume that Matrix connectivity enables one to aim better, such as the smartgun homing in on the other guy's PAN to put shots on him. Though, really, that wouldn't actually need the smartgun to accept any wireless input, just be watching for it.
RHat
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 16 2013, 10:33 PM) *
Exactly. So screw that. I'd rather just have 2072-vintage Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers than these nonsense ones.


And why, precisely, would you presume that those would have a different rules identity than their non-connected 2075 counterparts?
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 17 2013, 01:34 AM) *
And why, precisely, would you presume that those would have a different rules identity than their non-connected 2075 counterparts?


Because they explicitly work that way. You don't get to say that the established functionality of old gear degrades because a hamfisted, asinine mechanic to force people to do stupid things comes along.


Nobody wanted this. Literally. Somehow, they read "nobody is turning on wireless access for anything" as "we need to force them to open themselves up to combat hacks" rather than "combat hacking someone's cyberware is a stupid thing." They came away with the wrong message and tried to crowbar in a nonsensical solution. Literally the first thing I do when I get hold of Shadowrun 5, if I decide to go to it, will be to go down the list of "online bonuses" line-by-line to say "yeah, you don't have to actually expose that to the Matrix for it to do that" everywhere it makes sense to do so. Like, for instance, between two pieces of fucking cyberware installed in your goddamned body.
RHat
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 16 2013, 10:38 PM) *
Because they explicitly work that way. You don't get to say that the established functionality of old gear degrades because a hamfisted, asinine mechanic to force people to do stupid things comes along.


Nobody wanted this. Literally. Somehow, they read "nobody is turning on wireless access for anything" as "we need to force them to open themselves up to combat hacks" rather than "combat hacking someone's cyberware is a stupid thing." They came away with the wrong message and tried to crowbar in a nonsensical solution. Literally the first thing I do when I get hold of Shadowrun 5, if I decide to go to it, will be to go down the list of "online bonuses" line-by-line to say "yeah, you don't have to actually expose that to the Matrix for it to do that" everywhere it makes sense to do so. Like, for instance, between two pieces of fucking cyberware installed in your goddamned body.


In a different set of rules, they explicitly work that way. Why would you presume that they'd have a different rules identity in SR5? As far as SR5's rules are concerned, the implication may be that it never had that functionality in the first place.
binarywraith
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 16 2013, 11:38 PM) *
Because they explicitly work that way. You don't get to say that the established functionality of old gear degrades because a hamfisted, asinine mechanic to force people to do stupid things comes along.


Nobody wanted this. Literally. Somehow, they read "nobody is turning on wireless access for anything" as "we need to force them to open themselves up to combat hacks" rather than "combat hacking someone's cyberware is a stupid thing." They came away with the wrong message and tried to crowbar in a nonsensical solution. Literally the first thing I do when I get hold of Shadowrun 5, if I decide to go to it, will be to go down the list of "online bonuses" line-by-line to say "yeah, you don't have to actually expose that to the Matrix for it to do that" everywhere it makes sense to do so. Like, for instance, between two pieces of fucking cyberware installed in your goddamned body.


Installed in your goddamn body and already connected via your brain and internal DNI, meaning that a wireless signal is going to be outright slower in the first place. A signal that has to go through a broadcast unit, hit the matrix, get propogated by the Matrix (and filtered by GOD, since that's apparently the thing now for all Matrix connectivity), rebroadcast, received by your comlink, then fed to your DNI is always going to be slower than the speed of signal through a few feet of artificial nerve. There's an exponential difference in distance to be covered, and every man in the middle is going to add a delay because any processing required is going to be operating slower than the speed of unrestricted signal.

Not to mention the simple question of 'What idiot makes his arm vulnerable to a Man in the Middle attack that doesn't require someone separate it from him', or what exactly stops every AAA from using these vulnerabilities to tag everyone entering one of their WANs with psychotropic IC.
Jaid
guys, you're getting it all wrong...

when you enable your reaction enhancers + your wired reflexes on the matrix so that someone else can hack them, it takes the pure stupidity generated by this action and radiates it across the matrix, thereby stunning everyone else with the power of stupidity.

it's not that it makes you any faster... it's that everyone else just got slower. from stupidity waves being broadcast over the matrix.

that makes at least as much sense as any other explanation i've heard anyways.
Tashiro
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 17 2013, 01:21 AM) *
But the one cut and dry example that started all of this doesn't reflect that. In SR4 (and probably before, I don't recall) Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes stack. In SR5, they only stack if you enable wireless. People are saying "Why not just use old gear?" because they were very obviously able to have the benefits of the 'new and improved' matrix connected gear without matrix connectivity years ago.


The first Playstation 3s could be hacked to run Linux, and could run your PS2 games. The later versions couldn't. "Why not just use the older PS3s?" -- because they're not making or selling them anymore.

So, older models of Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes aren't being made anymore. The companies have replaced these with a new model. Oh, and the parts for the older models aren't being made anymore -- it will become harder and harder to replace parts as they wear down and age.

That's one thing I think is often forgotten in SR. Cyberware may be mechanically 'generic', but in the setting? They aren't. Each piece of cyberware has a brand name, and probably has some tweaks or modifications which make them unique -- but provide no mechanical benefits. And I can easily see a company upgrading their goods to fit the 'new technology', effectively forcing it on the public - whether the public likes it or not - because this happens in the real world now, so why wouldn't it happen in Shadowrun?

And, I'm fully willing to divorce how I feel about this with how my character would feel about this. Sure, it might make some things harder for me as a player, but I can see an in-setting reason for this, and I'm willing to accept it. My character? Would bloody well hate it. wink.gif I say, 'tough cookies' to my character.
Tashiro
Something else:
1) Edition differences. Things change with Editions. I don't see any reason why the creators have to be 100% beholden to the mechanics of an earlier edition. The shift from 1st to 2nd edition was drastic. 2nd to 3rd was drastic. 3rd to 4th was drastic. Things don't translate 100%. 4th to 5th is 'close', but isn't a direct translation. Nor should it be. So, if things run 'better' when they're wired to the matrix... you can presume that earlier versions (products made in 2060, 2065, 2070) don't run as well as products in the here and now do. Or, consider this. If you've got a cyberdeck from 2050, it is NOT going to run as well as a cyberdeck now. Even if, mechanically, it would be the same. The game doesn't put that much into SOTA fade, so why would anything ten years ago be expected to be as good as the latest tech? Some things are tried and true ... a bullet is a bullet (usually), and a knife is a knife, but when you're getting into actual electronics and mechanics, later technology is going to improve on previous technology in some fashion.

2) The corporations. Maybe they want everyone to be wired to the matrix. And being who they are, they can push the issue. They have the muscle to ensure that their vision is one that trickles down to the public. They're the ones who can add features that only turn on when the device is talking to the matrix, and runs less effectively when it isn't. Why would they do that? Control. This gives them a window into the habits and activities of the public. It restricts illegal activities using their goods. Does this make life harder for runners? Very likely - and you know what? The corporation doesn't care. I can easily see in-setting justification for this kind of activity, and I can easily see this hosing a number of runners. But I see this as an 'evolve or die' situation for characters, and I don't mind this kind of thing. There's excellent in-setting justification for why this could and would happen. Does it have to make sense? Does it make things more complicated for people? Yes. But funny enough... this happens. Sometimes, when people have the choice of the easy path or the complicated path, people take the complicated path, because the benefits they see outweigh (to them), the reward of doing things simply. Humanity isn't rational, and humanity doesn't always see the 'factors' around them. We have the benefit of being able to look at past rules, and see how things have changed, but in-setting, people don't quite have that luxury.

And really... if you don't like the mechanic, don't use it. I personally find the mechanic interesting... I can see an in-setting justification for it, I can see how it would drive some shadowrunners absolutely bonkers, and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the rules, and taking a good hard look at it. I'm probably use it, specifically because it makes things a bit more tricky for the PCs. Then again, I'd be more inclined to it as a player, too, because I'm certain that it would make my character's lives more difficult.
apple
QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 17 2013, 12:13 AM) *
So you're suggesting that the existence of a design reason means an in-game reason cannot exist?


In that very specific case: I think indeed that the ingame reason is far "weaker" then the metagame reasoning as in "totally unnecessary and already existing".

1) The meta reason was "make hackers combat viable".
2) SR4 rules/playstyle resulted in many disabled wifi devices, mostly cyberware and worn items - which is kind of logical. Itīs the same logic as using masks and gloves for not leaving finger prints and visible faces.
3) Both NPC and PCs were still online due to radio communication, commlink/matrix-recherche/activities, drone remote control, tacnet and (mostly on the side of NPCs) incompetent/semi professional teams who indeed were running wifi devices. As anyone can confirm who actually used these online devices to attack the enemy: it was highly effective, if you were able to control enemy drones, tacnets, communication etc.
4) The major problem in SR4 with this being on the same level as shooting or spellcasting was the extended test.

SR5 removed point #4 (making it a normal action), completely ignored #3 and went nuts on #2 to force players to finally get online - which they already were, but not with their ... reaction enhancers ... but with their drones and tacnets.

The "correct" way would have been to remove the extended test from combat hacking (done, finally and very good) and to make sure, that tacnets and drones become a standard in the sixth world for runners, both new and professional (as in "everyone has a rating 1 tacnet and one or two of the cheaper mini/micro drones"; not done).

And still of course there is the argument why exactly hackers, who already were extremely powerful characters and absolutely vital team members outside of combat (a hacker usually does matrix recherche (plans etc), off site matrix manipulation (hacking) and data manipulation ("yes, we are the maintenance team, check your computer") and often general tech stuff (manipulating mag locks and physical alarm system)) was so incredible important that he now has to absolutely made to be a viable tool hacker ... but not the other archetypses like the face.

The official answer for the face was btw: "well, if the face wants to contribute to combat, he better get a gun".

SYL
DMiller
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Jun 17 2013, 04:04 PM) *
Something else:
1) Edition differences. ... (snip)


This board really NEEDS a +1 or 'Like' feature.

In anycase...

+1
{/like}
RHat
The problem in SR4 is that nothing worth hacking would be online. I'm sorry, but a tacnet's only worth getting into if you're creative about what you do with it, and a very large array of possible counters would not sensibly involve one. Further, complete wireless defense presented a perfect defense for free, and that is something that shouldn't EVER be free.

As for why hackers get to be combat relevant? Everyone else does, so why should they be excluded? Because I don't know where that official answer came from, but the Face gets Leadership, and given the existence of combative specializations clearly some level of combat utility is intended. Besides, playing a good Face (Charisma +4, Influence 4, Tailored Pheromones or Kinesics 3, and you're basically there) isn't as build-intensive as playing a good Hacker, especially with the pools being Logic+Skill.
Cochise
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jun 17 2013, 12:02 AM) *
What non-wireless sensors can you think of that can pinpoint a person's body parts' location in 3D space accurately and in real time?


The smartgun subsystem called "limites simrig" which has been either directly wired to the user's brain or is connected via other forms of DNI for at least 4 editions now. Said limited simrig up until now was perfectly able to calculate body positions from nervous sensory input. And its limitation wasn't about inaccuracy of data, but rather about not being able to make long-term simsense recordings.

QUOTE
If you moved it, how would it know?


How do you and your body know that you moved? Sensory feedback in addition to more sensory input from your eyes ... Parts of your nervous system that smartgun systems had access to since they were first introduced into SR (originally with implanted versions being better due to their direct neural connection).
CeeJay
QUOTE (Cochise @ Jun 17 2013, 10:17 AM) *
The smartgun subsystem called "limites simrig" which has been either directly wired to the user's brain or is connected via other forms of DNI for at least 4 editions now. Said limited simrig up until now was perfectly able to calculate body positions from nervous sensory input. And its limitation wasn't about inaccuracy of data, but rather about not being able to make long-term simsense recordings.

Well, what you're describing here is a SR1-3 smartlink. The SR4 version of smartlink can do without any simsense input, because there no longer is something like a "limited simrig" component in a smartlink system.

Somehow a SR4 smartlink can derive all the necessary input data from the smartgun system in the weapon, that is linked via your PAN to the smartlink system in your contacts.

-CJ
Larsine
QUOTE (Seerow @ Jun 17 2013, 07:21 AM) *
A similar argument could be made for smartgun (which I believe was stated earlier in the thread to be +2 accuracy without wireless, and +2 dicepool with wireless. Before accuracy wasn't a thing, and +2 dicepool came without any need for connectivity.)

By the same reasoning I should be able to get a pre-SR4 smartlink and get -2 Target Number, because thats what it used to do.
apple
QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 17 2013, 02:58 AM) *
but a tacnet's only worth getting into if you're creative about what you do with it


you donīt have to be sorry, just creative. wink.gif

btw it is solved by a GM very easily: reduce enemy bonuses and (if you are good enough) give them negative dice modifier (because the tacnet gives wrong

QUOTE
Everyone else does, so why should they be excluded? Because I don't know where that official answer came from, but the Face gets Leadership, and given the existence of combative specializations clearly some level of combat utility is intended.


And yet face (even with leadership) have almost no "face combat options". What you are refeering too are the leadership tests in WAR!, which are applicable to a runner team only in rare circumstances (except if you are playing with a sanity/horror/stress houserule).

SYL
Cochise
QUOTE (CeeJay @ Jun 17 2013, 10:34 AM) *
Well, what you're describing here is a SR1-3 smartlink. The SR4 version of smartlink can do without any simsense input, because there no longer is something like a "limited simrig" component in a smartlink system.

Somehow a SR4 smartlink can derive all the necessary input data from the smartgun system in the weapon, that is linked via your PAN to the smartlink system in your contacts.

-CJ


I'm not sure whether that makes it better or even worse ...

RHat
QUOTE (apple @ Jun 17 2013, 02:05 AM) *
And yet face (even with leadership) have almost no "face combat options". What you are refeering too are the leadership tests in WAR!, which are applicable to a runner team only in rare circumstances (except if you are playing with a sanity/horror/stress houserule).


As undefined as the relevant rules are, combative specializations predate War.

And again, even if a tacnet were somehow sufficient, it is not and cannot feasibly be made a general case.
Rubic
edit, wrong thread
Moirdryd
Reading through this and feeling part intrigued and part disappointed.

I never touched SR4 and am quite happy of the fact SR3 has kept me happy for years. But I have potentially a new game to run later this year with a small group in a vastly reduced game time (we used to have 5 hr sessions this group is about 2 hrs) and while I was thinking Shadowrun I was looking at maybe getting SR5 and running from the corebook rather than my huge SR3/2 collection of data. Currently I'm not sold on the idea however and am wondering apart from this seeming debacle (which can easily be corrected with a pen a five minutes and (some house ruled decisions) how people who've got the early release are finding the REST of the systems etc?
binarywraith
QUOTE (RHat @ Jun 17 2013, 01:58 AM) *
The problem in SR4 is that nothing worth hacking would be online. I'm sorry, but a tacnet's only worth getting into if you're creative about what you do with it, and a very large array of possible counters would not sensibly involve one. Further, complete wireless defense presented a perfect defense for free, and that is something that shouldn't EVER be free.

As for why hackers get to be combat relevant? Everyone else does, so why should they be excluded? Because I don't know where that official answer came from, but the Face gets Leadership, and given the existence of combative specializations clearly some level of combat utility is intended. Besides, playing a good Face (Charisma +4, Influence 4, Tailored Pheromones or Kinesics 3, and you're basically there) isn't as build-intensive as playing a good Hacker, especially with the pools being Logic+Skill.



I still boggle at people declaring hackers not combat relevant. For frag's sake, they gave 'em all the offensive stuff Riggers used to do. Drone riggers are absurdly effective in combat, simply because they can easily outnumber the enemy. Did that somehow change, or is this just the usual grognards declaring Hackers not 'combat effective' because they don't benefit as much from the sort of rules abusive twinking that Adepts do?
Daedelus
So I would like to point out that this matrix discussion has been taken to another thread.
A couple of rule Questions on the book to get us back on track.

Can someone give us the stats on the big three of the spell list? Mana Bolt, Mana Ball, and Stun Bolt

Also Please tell me they brought back Turn to Goo. sarcastic.gif
Daedelus
Oh and I almost forgot How do Riggers differ in this edition? Have they become their own specialty again or is the Rigger / Decker combo still a viable build?
Udoshi
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 16 2013, 10:49 PM) *
when you enable your reaction enhancers + your wired reflexes on the matrix so that someone else can hack them


I gotta say, this is gonna make a HELL of a honeypot for combat hackers.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 17 2013, 04:07 PM) *
I gotta say, this is gonna make a HELL of a honeypot for combat hackers.


That's actually a pretty funny idea. Integrating the public API for Reaction Enhancer + Wired Reflexes into your honeypot, and trolling for curious/malicious deckers.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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