Since not everyone makes it into the Missions forum.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39470

Fancy

"Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc)."

Samurai just got a lot shinier compared to adepts.

How does that even make any sense what so ever.

Hopefully this penalty increases with an upcoming magic book. The magic Reduction from 4th was way worse than this is.

You have 4 skill points. You have MAGIC POWERS that increase that by 4. You standing in a 2-point mana dead zone, your MAGIC POWERS aren't as strong now, young padawan, causing a two-die penalty.

Good time to invest in that metamagic cleansing and Filtering.

No i just have 12 dice for unarmed and killing hands, if i'm in 2 points background count my dice pool drops to 10.
That makes zero sense.
Or my face adept has Improved potential(social), on background count her social dicepools drop by the rating of the count, but the limit is un affected

This makes perfect sense. In a magically unstable/drained area you are using MAGIC POWERS to BE BETTER, thus you TAKE PENALTIES.

Your other option is to disable Killing Hands.



...and?

Your really saying that to you it makes perfect sense that the power itself is totally unaffected but instead you take a dicepool penalty for the related skill.
Also most powers are intrinsic, not something you turn on and off.

Also i seriously hope mystic adept errata doesn't stay final, only way to get power points being taking them instead of metamagic is just stupid as heck.

So, it no longer subtracts Magic Rating? Which is effectively the same thing, in a lot of cases (at least for the mojo slingers and conjurers). As for ACTIVE Powers of the Adept, just turn them off and you apparently do not suffer the penalty. I actually prefer the power loss, myself (SR4A for the Win... ), as it makes more sense, but whatever. For Adepts, Power loss or turn them off to ignore the penalty, it is all the same in the end.

Can you quote me rule that says that is something that can be done?
Most adept powers are always on.

I think it should be handled just like it is in SR4A. When you get a point of Magic, it either adds to your Magician Side, or your Adept Side. Simple and neat. And then when you initiate, you also choose either a Metamagic, or a PP. Again, simple and neat. But then, I also think a Mystic Adept should be forced to split their Magic Rating too, rather than having the best of both worlds. *shrug*

Wow, MAs took it up the arse.

Also, Deckers just got a lot better. The optimal route is now implanting a used Shiawase Cyber-5 for any Resources A Decker.

Unless you are running a hacking adept, at which point you are -2 dicepool for the noise (minimum) and -2 for the Background count (minimum) too all of the related tests. (personal ouch. Hardware (my character name) is going to have such a hard time out there in the Containment Zone).

Or if you have Improved Ability. All of the skills linked to that attribute now have a -2 due to background count while in the containment zone.

Wait, how does something that doesn't affect the die pool in the first place affect the die pool?

Like, an Adept WITHOUT Killing Hands will actually be better than an adept with Killing Hands? I mean losing dice from Improved Ability makes perfect sense, but Killing Hands was a power that does not affect Die Pools at all. There are other powers that don't affect die pools as well(Critical Strike).

I wouldn't worry though, just turn off Killing Hands and use Knucks instead. (You're probably using Knucks anyway). I mean you'll need to let the mage shoot the bug spirits, but just go deal with the stuff that doesn't have Normal Weapon immunity.

Also, it's kinda funny how it can work out in other ways. An Adept with Improved Agility 1 is better off deactivating it than using it(since, say, he'll have Agility 5(6) and Combat Skill of 6+2 Specialized...he'll take a -2 which will bring him one lower than he would have if he de-activated the power, when he'll only lose 1 die.) If he has Improved Agility 2, it's a wash(assuming Background Count 2.) Initiative, what do you lose from that? 2 from your Initiative? A Weapon Adept with Critical Strike: Katana or whatnot would also be probably better off de-activating. They only lose 1 DV but don't take any die pool penalties. In Higher background counts it becomes even more pointless to leave something like Critical Strike on. Why would I take a -4 penalty for +1 damage?

...Count me as someone who sorta prefers the 'Lost Powers' method-this method is sorta weird(it's better to de-activate sometimes than take the penalty, stuff that doesn't affect die pools at all suddenly affects die pools.) There's no real choice involved in this method with some of the powers. At least the other way you could actually make an order of what powers go away. I mean this method-I actually don't think it's worse than the old method. Hell, I actually think it's *easier* than the old method, since if I REALLY need to use the powers, I can activate them and eat a little penalty, where before, Adepts didn't even have that option. Those powers were gone until they left the area.

As for MAs, I'm glad that's the errata. I like them better nowadays. Before they were a bit too gimmicky, IMO.

Guys, seriously why do you all keep talking about activating and deactivating powers, when most of the powers are always on.

Actually, Killing Hands is an activated power. Killing Hands, Wall Running, Attribute Boost, Adrenaline Boost, Missile Parry and Astral Perception are all activated.

I also admit to sometimes thinking of old rules when the Adept could choose whether or not to have any power 'on' or 'off'...or that's how the table had always played it since '94 or so.

Quite. ಠ_ರೃ

Only if you assume that you cannot "turn the magic off." Either way, it is generally no different than actually losing the power, as you did in SR4A.

I think getting to use all your powers at slightly diminished effectiveness is pretty spiffy compared to losing powers altogether.

And different powers every time you exit and re-enter the background count. As in "the power I don't need this time." Which is weird and a book keeping hassle.

Also true.

Interesting point: I don't think Initiative dice are a "dice pool" and thus Improved Reflexes (for Initiative) aren't affected by BGC. You'd still take a penalty to Reaction tests (such as defense) in the BGC, but you'd still be the fastest guy on the magically fuzzy block.

Will likely be clarified with the official errata.

Initiative will need to be clarified, yes. Right now, no direct penalty. It'll probably translate to a flat penalty (Since dice would be a bit ridiculous in that case, because no, it is not a dice pool).

Powers can be turned on and off. Always have been. Should have been clarified in the new book though. Otherwise Adepts can NEVER go through wards.

And yes, even if the power doesn't give you dice, if the skill you're using benefits from magic, you get penalized, because you are being made physically ill and moving through astral quicksand.

Bull

Will this get clarified, or is it intended?

this will need to get clarified. Implantation is intended to be in addition to the deck. you buy the deck seperately, so you still need to deal with the Availability for the deck. And you cannot buy the deck itself used.

Why can you not buy a used deck?

*cough* bonded with karma *cough* blows up on death of decker *cough*

JK

I suppose for Missions though its just like some other limits on chargen/joining in.


I am really interested to see how the decking splat book covers used decks, building your own and such as that seems more old school that way ...

Other than Cyberware, Missions doesn't allow for any used gear (and that's what this is specifically being done for, so I'm partly answering things with an eye on them).

Reason being that at the moment, there are no rules for used gear other than Cyberware. And without a direct mechanical drawback, it's just a free discount for no reason.

The wording on implanted decks includes the deck price as part of the cyberware price, so it gets discounted along with the implantation ware. Probably not what was intended.

But did I not see that Used was available at Chargen, right there in the Hot-Fix Document? If so, then you buy a used cranial deck harness, which REQUIRES a used Cyberdeck to go into it.

Cannot have it both ways here. Let me see...

*scans Document*

YEP, 5th Bullet Point in the document:



Not that I have a dog in this hunt, but, that is what is written.

I can definitely understand from a Missions standpoint. It WOULD be cool to see something for that(and home-made decks) in the Matrix book. Hopefully by then some mechanical drawbacks can be figured into the equation by that point.

There are two costs for implanted cyberdeck. The deck itself, and the cyberware (Which is added to the decks price). You get the discount off the cyberware portion only.

Not arguing this anymore. if you're not playing Missions, do it however you like regardless of how the errata and faq come out for it. But for Missions, that's the ruling. Roll with it, please

Bull

There are no grades for a deck, so no it does not requier used deck, infact used deck doesn't exist.
The decks a completely separate item.

For that matter, decks don't have alpha other grades either; they're the piece of the implanted ware that seem to circumvent the need to have 'all same grade' stuff attached. You get the cranial deck harness of any grade you want, and then *insert deck you want here* at it's regular price. (I wonder how many people were paying for alpha grade cyberdecks...)

Standard procedure, the reason decks are so expensive is because of the miniature tactical nuke built into the hardware...

Love the new/old background count rules. Much more 1-3e. If I am in a toxic zone my magic hasn't gone anywhere, I'm still the same mage I was its just harder to use my magic. Makes so much more sense and is mechanically easier to use.

Mystic adepts I don't think they went far enough. They really should have stuck with splitting the pools, you can still build mage+ with this rule as you will quickly run out of metamagics you need.

But on the bright side you can plus all your other toys into it for faster recharging of same.

Just be careful about the self destruct....

LOAD “THOUSHALTNOTPASS”,8,1

Standard 6 second delay to let you get behind cover. Lead undies probably a good option.

...Quickly run out of metamagics? How fast DO some games have people Initiate(assuming time needed for ordeals, etc)? There's like Adept Centering, Centering, Flexible Signature, Masking, and Quickening alone that are highly useful and that's 5 Initiations right there. Spell Shaping and Fixation I agree are much rarer, but then Shielding is also highly useful. There's plenty of good Metamagics to take. Even assuming a more minimal metamagic spread, Centering, Masking, Flexible Signature and Shielding are all really, really good to have.

Splitting the pool was a dated mechanic, IMO, and needed a change. I do think they could perhaps start with Spells/Skills one level lower on the Priority chart(so a Prio A Mystic Adept starts with 7 spells and 2 skills at 4 instead of the normal Prio A stuff, for example), but otherwise I think they'll be fine.

Under the test build I performed, Initial Character Creation came out much more powerful (All the same Active Skills, but slightly higher levels) than in SR4A, with the exception of fewer Knowledge Skills, and less Spells initially. Over the advancement of 312 Karma, the SR4A character was a bertter build, in my opinion (even if the Magic was 3/2 vs SR5's 5/5), due to costs in SR5 (Specializations are more than triple the cost, Sustaining Foci cost more, purchased of mising knowledge skills, Ending with 12 fewer spells, and less initiate grades).

Had I been trying to make the best build I could, instead of rebuilding and advancing a current character (rather than Converting it), I think he would have been a BEAST of a character. Of course, changing the Cost of Adept expansion in Chargen to 5 Karma/Rating will help with some of that.

The section on wards (p.315) specifically States that always on Adept powers and critter powers are not affected by passing through a barrier. The Using Powers portion of the Adept section (p.308) states some powers require activation and some are intrinsic, I.E. always on.

Bull, I really do respect a lot of what you've done for Missions, and the time and effort you put in on these things, but please don't make up stuff that's not in the book and expect players to be happy about it. You've repeatedly in the past said that your role is to say what rules are and are not applicable to the Missions setting, not to make rules changes or new rules. Has that changed?

The Background Count rules are particularly worrisome, being effectively omnipresent and in effect before the traditional methods of dealing with them (e.g. Cleansing and Filtering metamagics). Also, taking damage from BC for having an active Focus (rather than the Focus taking damage) brings back the mechanics of spell grounding which is really, IMO, a poor decision. At least the Deckers and technos already have ways to generate Noise reduction in the base rules.

As far as the Mystic Adept nerf hammer goes, I personally think 5 karma per PP at chargen plus 5 per point later is too much. If PPs are not part of the Magic purchase (and oddly, I agree that should be the case), 4 is a more appropriate number (I also agree that 2 was probably too cheap). A power point lacks the scope, power, and versatility of purchasing a new spell for that same 5 karma, and at chargen, a priority A Mystic could afford his PPs without requiring negative qualities. I hope that if and when there is an official Errata this is evaluated more closely, and that the writers don't just say "Hey, 5 worked for Missions, we'll go with that!"

Edit: just looked back and saw I'd misread the PP after chargen for Mystic Adept. Was it your intent for MAs to *only*be able to acquire additional PPs through Initiation? Because that's gone right past nerf-bat and into ridiculously punative. I think there should be an associated cost when raising Magic to also get the power point, but it should be in line with the chargen cost for PPs.

You do realize that most characters are unlikely to ever reach 300+ Karma, right? S4 missions retired your character at 150.

I agree on the mage+ thing, out of chargen myssadd is "like mage but better", but now all those would wan't to rather build an "adept with some magic" are totally and utterly boned.
There are metamagic that are pretty much mandatory(like masking) so getting more powerpoints is pretty damm hard.

For example i planned a myssadd alchemist occult detective build that would just have a couple power points in chargen(anticipating the cost change to 5 per point) and would then raise magic to get few more, while using initiations to get the metamagics needed.

Centering, masking, shielding are good. The rest have their uses, but are fairly niche. And I have no idea how your players advance but mages in our games have a fairly straight line for multiple initiations. So as is the mystake adept will start off better, will stay the same amount better until they hit the point they no longer care about the metamagics and then they will widen the gap even further.

splitting the pool wasn't dated it was a balanced and elegant method to create a mage capable of everything. Now personally I would have made it 2 separate magic attributes, but oh well.

Magic 6 isn't quite the bombshell it was in SR4 where you could overcast F10 stunbolts and drop trolls

Yeah, that's definitely a table thing then. In our games initiation is treated as something a *little* more special. Not like super-rare or anything, but we actually go through all the rules for how long it takes with in-game time, the ordeals and such, etc. So it's not like, mage gets 13 karma and they initiate within the hour. We sorta treat it a bit more like the old 2e ways of doing it. But even then, after, say, 5 times, they should be pretty powerful at that point, but even 3 metamagics and 2 PP's aren't terribly out of place, I don't think, especially when you factor in 5 initiations costing around...95? Karma, and that's assuming that is *all* they did with that 95 Karma(no Skills, Attributes, Spells, or anything else purchased with karma during this time.)

Of course, groups, etc, can lower this cost a bit, but even with that it's still a hefty cost and again-there is the issue of nothing else getting purchased. (So, say, they wouldn't be able to keep stacking Improved Ability dice, since they haven't used any karma to up the base skills higher than a certain point.) Now after 150 or so Karma they'll have more stuff, but I'm not sure how long it takes specific tables to earn 150 Karma(it took the one game I was in about 15 or so months.) So indeed, some of the stuff may look different under a different reward system, etc.

Also, the more I think about the new Background Count method, it does seem to work in my head in any case. The Adept in this case with powers gets a choice; keep them active and take the hit(now that it's confirmed they all activate-I suspected as much), or deactivate them and go natural. In the other way they were forced to drop the powers(and, well, IME, the reflexes were always the last to go.) It could even be described in-game; I'm sure, say, a Blades adept with Improved Ability 3 in a Background Count of 1 might feel 'a little bothered, maybe a tiny bit clumsier, but still cool', where wandering into a 4 would make them feel 'yeah, you feel clumsy and sludgy right now.' Which may give them the hint 'eh, I think I'll be better off without.'

Really? They force a retirement. That sucks.

As for Initations... We also tend to treat them as special, most of the time. Astral Quests, and the various other long-term ordeals are not something that you just pop off, after all. And as far as costs for initiation goes, 4 Grades of Initiation costs only 44 Karma with Group and Ordeal costs, so a 5th is only an additional 15, for a total of 59 Karma.

None of these are "my rules" These were all worked up by the SR5 writers and design team. There's been a lot of discussion behind the scenes, and while I'm cautioning that none of this is final for SR5 in general, and that the final errata may change things up... Right now, these are all what is planned to go into the Errata and FAQ.

Bull

Actually, not quite. You check for total karma at the end of a season. So you can earn well above 150 (and many runners did). We did a Karma check at the beginning of Season 4 (So characters comeing in from Season 3 may have been promoted to prime Runner status), and we'd have checked again after Season 4 had we not switched to SR5. but we had at least one character I know of who started Season 4 with 130 or so karma, so he ended up with quite a few by the end of Season 4.

And there will be Prime missions for Prime Runners, so you will be able to play some more Missions. But this is primarily done to help keep the characters at least somewhat balanced. Living Forgotten Realms and Pathfinder has levels to help balance characters, but Shadowrun can quickly get out of hand. Especially now that the skill levels have been opened up to 12. So there will be a karma check when we go into Season 6, but not until then.