No that is exactly not how I imagine it is intended to be used. The entry gives neither an actual %cost reduction to use in the case that you are using a hot piece of gear, nor does it say actually wiping the serials etc will make it non-hot. In theory, you could RFID sweep, file off serial numbers, Astrally cleanse, the works. But the only way you're getting gear that is with the HOT quality is if the GM specifically gives it to you, and then it becomes a plot hook, NOT a crunch adjustment. Besides going through all the trouble to cleanse it of identifying features takes time, which you may not have if it's really being looked for, and money, which you just tried to spend less of.

Think something like Total Recall or Bourne Identity where you suddenly have people coming after your head and you don't know WHY… only to realize it was probably that cyberdeck you bought for really really cheap. That sort of price tag will definitely have strings attached.


Weapon Commlink is an accessory. Weapon Cyberdeck not so much

But using a tag eraser takes seconds and turning wireless off is a free action so how are they tracking the gear?

Astral cleansing takes a few rounds...

How sounds more like it would be useful for unique stuff like cutting edge drones, or vehicles or 'ware or something that would immediately draw some interest from anyone who sees it in action. Not for getting a Novatech Navigator on the cheap.

Just a reminder, the "hot" keyword does not simply mean that the stuff is stolen. Most things Runners buy are. It means, and the chapter about explosives (where this keyword is introduced anyway) is pretty explicit about it, that the authorities (Feds, Corpsec, KE, whoever owned that stuff) is actively searching for it and very close to finding it so that the fixer has to dump the ware right now so that he does not have squads of armed men kicking in his door. It is literally too hot for many people who make a business of fencing stolen goods or use said stolen goods to blow things up.

First off: What Ixal said.


Secondly:
I think people are making light on just how difficult and time consuming tag erasing might be. It's not just a matter of point and click.

First you must find all the tags. Stealth Tags, Hidden, what have you. That takes time.

You must bring the tag eraser within 5 mm of the object, so tags buried deep in the guts of an item must be accessed by opening/disassembling. That takes time.

Then you must use a tag eraser on each tag. A tag eraser can only be used every 10 seconds, if you have it connected to a power point. You also PROBABLY Should be careful when erasing tags since popping 10 boxes of matrix damage on electronics also takes time to fix.

Alternatively you could hack each tag. But that takes time as well.

And even after all of that you have no guaranty that you found everything.

Or you could stick the item in a box lined with lead, or wi-fi negating paint.
Or put it in a Faraday cage.
Or stick it under a downward facing directional Jammer.
Or just take it sufficiently far underground, where the signals are blocked by the earth.

Then you have all the time in the world to clean it of RFIDs.

~Umi

IIRC, the nickname came from his Minotaur Avatar in the Matrix.

...and that's only if the runners are even aware that the item they have is Hot.

Chances are, when they first receive it, and when they start getting attacked by heavily armed strike teams, they won't know what the hell is going on.

The problem is at that point we're talking less Item Modifier and more Plot Device, so why even waste lines in a book on the entry?

~Umi

It says it stacks with "other pieces that have been Custom Fit by the same maker". I'd say if some armorer is custom fitting both pieces for you, he is "the maker". So it's possible to mix brands / manufacturers.

Oh, no, the only used a couple of lines in a +200 page book for a plot item, because there absolutely SHOULD not be any GM items. This clearly destroys the game entirely and renders everything unusable!!!!!111!!!!!!11!!!1!!

Given the amount of useful stuff that gets excluded because of the almighty "Word Count", I think it's fair to apply the standard both ways and say "Why is this taking up word count? How is this useful?" when something absolutely useless gets included.

If you have a campaign or even just a one shot in which the Runners are supposed to come across a very "Hot" MacGuffin of some sort which gets the police on their tail and fuels the plot, then all you as a GM need to do is say that's how it works. You don't need the book giving you an official "Item Designation" for it.

What next? Is CGL going to put out little sheets of stickers to afix to your GM notes? "Wait, which NPC was this again? Oh, wait, a Smiley Face sticker! That means he's an ally, not an enemy. Phew. I got worried for a second there. What else? Aha! There's a Guns sticker and a Nuyen sticker too! Now I remember! This is their Arms Merchant contact!"

~Umi

And what about all the other identifying marks which are mentioned in the core book?
Also, you still assume that the authorities are completely passive and are not searching for the stuff and so you can hide it forever as long as you do not use it. But that is not the case.

Searching for something which isn't wirelessly broadcasting would mean following physical leads. If you're aware enough of the situation to be clearing out RFIDs, you're also aware enough to be covering your tracks and turning any leads into dead ends.

~Umi

With all respect, that is just some generalized terms which in no way take the situation in the account.

There are already leads, thats why the item is hot in the first place and the fixer had to dump it. Runners are not magic fairies who can wave an eraser over an item and make everyone forget that it existed. The unique firmware codes are on file as are nanoetched serial codes, not only the ones for the item but for every component or weapons have their ballistics registered. The authorities are actively looking for this items and know where to look. And when they find and identify them the repercussions will be a lot worse than what you would normally expect.

A stolen Predator the runners buy at their local gang hideout is not hot and neither is the full crate of them they got from their fixer. But that one Predator used to kill the 5 year old daughter of a senator? That one is hot.

Doesn't really matter in the long run.

It's only a couple of lines of text; whopdee fucking do. It's not as if it's taking up an entire page. Besides, items or rules that people will never use is pretty normal for any RPG. Most of the extra Runner Tools back in Arsenal I had no intention of using, nor did any of my players have any interest in using them. Does that mean that whole section was a waste of paper and how-dare-that-section-was-added-and-make-me-waste-*MY*-money? No. That would be silly and melodramatic. It's there if I need it; doesn't mean that I will use it.

If you hate it so much, take your big red marker, scratch it out, and not use it.

Besides, you act as if this is the only time that an item that's a GM tool is listed in a book. Carcerands, Shadowtech, anyone? And that one took up a whole page.

It's not a question of this being a niche addition useful only to a select portion of GMs and player.

It's a question of "Why does this even exist? No one actually has a need for this". There is no niche to fill. It's like adding in a line that confirms that, yes, in the Shadowrun Universe, water is in fact still wet.

~Umi

So lets remove all GM advice. They can all come up with it by themselves. Also stories and Shadowtalk? Unnecessary. If the book contains anything else besides table of stats it is a rip off.

As an aside I think the 'high threat team is coming round the corner right now!' is excessive from reading the entry.



If you're getting something from your salesman at 50% off then something should immediately be setting off alarm bells in your head.

The entry does not come close to implying that you don't have time to respond or try and cover your tracks.

Let's take a little jaunt through the ToC, shall we?

Mortimer of London “Trafalger” Gun Cane 27 -> Cape Trafalgar
SA Retiarus Net Gun 28 -> I'm not sure if the Rus did gladiatorial combat, but the guy with the net was called Retiarius
Nissan Optimum II 38 -> Nissan builds cars and drones, the Japanese army's weapons come from Nitama
Ultamax MMG 44 -> Ultimax since forever
Ultamax HMG-2 45

And I have to revise my earlier comment, "die Kunst des Fechtens" is both semantically and typographically correct...there is no good reason to replace a random heading like "fencing" with a foreign language, but at least it gives the book one instance of correct German

Is it me or is 'Agile Defender' a stupid quality?

3 karma and it's way better than the other 'replace Willpower for full defence' options.

Agility is usually going to be high anyway for attacks AND it can be more easily raised due to augmentations.

Ag10 is not hugely onerous to get while Willpower 10 requires a Mage casting a F4 Enhanced Attribute: Willpower spell and sustaining it, sustaining foci or Quickening it all of which are comparatively easy to remove through Counterspelling or by placing a mana barrier in the way.

Even comparing it to Charisma it comes out on top as the Cha stat is really tough to Augment.

In terms of stupid qualities, "Too pretty to hit" takes the cake, purely mechanically (It's so damn hard to shoot elves! They're so pretty!). Bonus for inhibited nerdy sexism.

Players used Carcerands too, you know... At least a lot of mine did.

And players can use hot items, too.
Want the authorities to come down hard on someone? Get some hot weapons from a crime that guy could have potentially done and plant them.



Just wait till a troll gets the idea to strap the face onto his chest for additional armor/bullet deflection. Or maybe the rigger invents a new meaning of "faceplate".

Why does it even have to be something they potentially could have done? Possession is nine tenths of the law, especially when the Law is Knight Errant and is more interested in making arrests than solving actual crimes.

"Who would have guessed an 83 year old parapalegic man in a coma would have turned out to be the jewel thief?"
"Uhh... what? How could he possibly have stolen it?"
"Clearly he had help! He probably hired some Shadowrunners to grab it for him! Go ahead and add 'Conspiracy' and 'Association With Terrorists' to the list of charges!"

~Umi

I don't know. People seemed pretty happy with Run & Gun officially telling them that they don't have to use limits if you don't want to.............

There's a slight difference between adding an official Optional Rule (making it "official" stops the debate over whether it is a "legitimate" thing to do), and telling GMs that yes, their special plot device can in fact operate as a special GM plot device.

The brunt of that slight difference is that no one in either their right or wrong mind would argue over a GM making a particular plot important item "Hot". If the Runners end up with a nuclear football in their grubby little mitts, no one really needs it explained to them why the cops are all over them like white on rice.

Any player who starts snarkily whining to the GM "But where in the rules does it say you can make an particular item attract police and government attention, huh?!?" is a pathetic brute beyond any human help who should be taken out behind the shed and put down.

~Umi

What, you don't think passive aggression against the reader is productive? Evidently it was more useful than a desctiption of Tacnets (sorry, PeeTacs) that somehow makes sense with it's stats and bonuses.

Some of that passive aggression (the line in concealable quick draw holsters for example) seems a reaction to years of Shadowrun community experience and feels eminently justified and, personally, a bit of jokey camaraderie so I don't mind a little bit here and a little bit there.

Evidently, you and I have a different concept of camaraderie and humor. Especially coming from people who couldn't calculate their way out of a cardboard box, this seems more like assholishness to me.

Then again, that's what being a bro is all about.

See, you say that, but we all know full well someone would have brought it up at some point otherwise.

One thing I have learned on all my time on the internet is that I apparently have a much higher threshold for being insulted/offended/asholishness/etc. than many other people sp my opinion may well be deviant from the norm. The existence of ignore and report functions on forums mystifies me...

Highly dissapointed on the amount of actual weapons in the book and quite appalled by the amount of new calledshots someone feeled necessary to add.

I kind of loathe the actual use of some of these martial arts.

The amount of cross referencing to use them is pretty hideous.

1st find what techniques your style allows you to perform, then read up on that technique in Run+Gun which commonly allows you to perform certain kinds of Called Shots or other actions more easily which means in turn checking either anther location in R+G OR the Core Book to identify what the actual technique you can perform means.

Just working out if th etechnique is worth taking and what equipment/skills/etc. feed into performing it takes rather a lot of referencing and that kind of referencing slows down play a lot. I know people should note this stuff down for ease of use in play. But no one I know does that.

And several items that have different stats in the same book - apparently the tables were written during a different stage of the book's development than the final stage and never brought up to speed. Well, that's Hardy-style editing and book composition for you. He makes that mistake again and again, his time management seems horrible, and his idea of composing a book is "copypaste everything into one document and email it to the printers".

While we're at it, do we want to talk about the "Quality" "One-Trick-Pony"?

Seriously...

MA Style: I can spend 7 karma at chargen to learn an MA style that comes with one free MA technique.

OR

One Trick Pony Quality: I can spend 7 karma at chargen to gain a single MA technique.

Better yet, post-chargen it would cost me 14 karma to gain the One Trick Pony Quality as opposed to learning a new MA Style for 7 karma.

If only...C&P would at lest prevent stuff like the "Trafalger" cane or the Nissan Optimum...

PS: And while Nissan is probably due to autocorrect not knowing "Nitama", any autocorrect should have caught "Trafalger". So seemingly one part was spellchecked without sanity checking the results, and another part not at all

Or the Ultamax MMG. Or the SOX Kontrollrot. True enough. He likes his last-minute edits, after all.

Why? It should still only cost 7 Karma. This isn't SR4, after all. You do not get Qualities with BP, only Karma.

But post-chargen they cost twice their chargen cost...because reasons

@hermit:

Well, those are errors where probably neither the correct nor the wrong word are in the program's dictionary, and would have to be caught by human editing. But what gets me is the fact that there are obvious indications of automated spell checking (because in-universe terminology the program wouldn't know was replaced with something else), sitting happily next to typos any automated check would have caught. In other words, different QA procedures for different parts of the book, not a sign of great organization...

Fraid not. Pg.106 SR5 Core says they cost 2x listed karma cost.

Which mean yes. The book lists a karma cost which is half the real cost the majority of the time.

Using Arsenal (4e) as a reference, you can see that the Second Skin line is manufactured by Zoé.

Zoé also makes the Executive Suite, Moonsilver/Nightshade and Heritage lines though the Run & Gun format doesn't show that very well. Not bad for a company that somehow got edged out by Armanté.

Wow... another entirely stupid thing... Imagine that.

Entirely stupid? Not really - it has some pretty useful game balance advantages, for one.

I disagree... Charging one price pre game Start and another for the same thing post game Start is stupid. I see Zero Usefulness at all. Especially for something that you pay Karma for in the first place. *shrug*

Well, there's a number of things I think you're just not seeing, but I'll start with just one: Mystic Adepts. As it stands, they're forced to use the same Karma allotment for things like PP, bonding Foci, and qualities. The doubling cost makes this decision a little more complicated and makes it more difficult to "catch up" after the fact.

I know this is dumpshock which should be renamed whingeabout5thed.com but this was how they worked in 4th edition as well.

No... They cost TWICE THE BP in SR4A. Karmagen kept that because the KARMA cost of the Quality was Twice BP. But in 5th Edition, the Cost is in Karma, NOT BP. So there is a very significant Difference there, in case you missed it. If you are telling me I can buy those Qualities for 1/2 Karma in Character Generation, then that would be an equivalent Argument.

And yet, in Game, that Karma Expenditure for their Foci, Adept Abilities etc. DOES NOT DOUBLE in Play. Again, not an equivalent Argument.

Oh, it's absolutely true that some costs don't double - which makes it easier, both for the Magician and Mystic Adept, to push those to later. However, for the Mystic Adept who literally cannot fit everything into the Karma available to him, it creates a scenario where he has to make choices that are going to hold him back in one way or another.

I should point out, though, that the cost in game for their Adept abilities actually more than doubles - because they cannot purchase power points for Karma after chargen, they have to initiate for them instead, and thus are paying 13+ Karma for a Power Point.